If Note FCing stuff with DT means it's not hard, then nothing is hard haha
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.seicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps plsVelperK wrote:
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done
I think the CTB community considers another pattern with this term that uses sliders.
seph are you high...how can you say is not hard..just because note fc'd it...That map is obviously hard even with HD only, now imagine DTSeph wrote:
fixed it for youseicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emerald sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls
also proof its not hard is that NoteKuroi fc'd with DT lol
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
I didn't say they were impossible. I just said that I couldn't do (hyper'd chains yet).
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
Those chain jumps aren't bad once you get the hang of them. When they're screen width however, or alternating widths, that's when you have difficulty.Tenshichan wrote:
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
Seph
As said already, DT HR scores ain't worth nothing otherwise I am pretty satisfied
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from thereSabi wrote:
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
Never because he would have to revamp the system, the system is based on CTB maps and back and forth jumps and AR8 for some reason, tho everything else is correct and how HD/HR and even DT is weighed the only thing he really needs to change is some maps.. idk how to calculate the formula tho, a good example is distorted love song or even kemu life game, they are worth nothing even tho they should be worth 250+ so.. the system right now is good but not perfect, good luck lol.eldnl wrote:
I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from thereSabi wrote:
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
The ride never ends...TheVileOne wrote:
Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
When you SS airman on halftime you got 330 pp
When you got S (no fc + the score is superior than SS halftime ) airman on none you got 170 pp
Thats the problem : none > halftime and the pp system doesn't understand this logic
When you got S (no fc + the score is superior than SS halftime ) airman on none you got 170 pp
Thats the problem : none > halftime and the pp system doesn't understand this logic
why does dt gives more pp than hr?
any map, just take a look ...DeathXHunter wrote:
Some examples would be cool,u know
edit: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/246789&m=2
dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#
HT is broken...eldnl wrote:
dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#
Yes, but this is still a hard pattern for a lot of players. Once you can do them they seem easy, but before that they seem impossible.boomngong wrote:
edge to edge jump is overrated.
okDeathXHunter wrote:
Some examples would be cool,u know
-Ttobas- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 293 PP DT Only
-Exgon- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 250 PP HD/HR
hmmm, I have a question for the CtB players. Do you think droplets are underrated ?
yes they are
Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
It's for complaining about how broken a system is when it would be better off removed entirely.
Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too. I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
Topic Starter
I didn't post, since I didn't have anything to say. I agree with the problems you mentioned and I believe I stated that already. Jump difficulty definitely needs a fix for hyperdashes, and difficulty scaling in general is a bit weird, compared to the other modes.Zak wrote:
Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
The main reason you don't hear much from me, is that I am very busy with all kinds of things atm and can't really spare time for osu!. There will be some things happening starting June, but the priorities lie at finishing the ingame star-rating and then adding mod-specific highscores to stop people from losing their pp when using mods. I'll look into CtB as soon as I can.
Where did you take that information from? It's wrong, sliders are considered in standard, and so are droplets in CtB.TheVileOne wrote:
Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too.
What do you mean by platewalking?TheVileOne wrote:
I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
Tom94 wrote:
What do you mean by platewalking?
This is platewalking
Topic Starter
Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.Kingkevin30 wrote:
This is platewalking
Thanks for taking time out of your day to help out the CTB Community, I know you don't play CTB so creating a formula for PP Gain on CTB must be very tough, but platewalking is indeed hard and takes very good timing and accuracy, also you should calculate maps like Distorted Love Song and Cheshire,s Dance a lot more, getting less than 150 PP for a AR10 stream map is kind of absurd. I'm not really sure how you would create a formula to do that? so best of luck I guess, the only way I can think of is to calculate the hard parts in a map sort of like "Platewalking" Or "Back and forth jumps" Like what you did etc.Tom94 wrote:
Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.Kingkevin30 wrote:
This is platewalking
Best of luck.
Unlike osu! standard, AR is much more important in CTB. You have limited movement speed. You can't just move the catcher faster if you have a delayed reaction. Well you can, but at least for me a lot of CTB is muscle memory and if you have to adjust on the fly it gets a lot less consistent, especially at higher ARs.