Totally disagree sorry.

First don't call a patten random, no patten is random only if you map in random mood and make it shit. Every patten have its meaning and effect in the map. If the map continue to repeat a patten it looks shit already. And I assume mapper talking in here are not mapping shit.
If you really think a patten is random you should play more and you will not think in that way.

Second in a player's angle, I actually don't know how many times the patten(e.g ddk) have appeared. I play when I see the patten, no matter if that patten appear before. The most extreme case is this.

And on your logic, you think that the program should only check how many times a patten appeared? Then the example map given is really easy right? Please explain on your point on this.

RaneFire wrote:

I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.

Nope, this is not true.
Patterns that don't require leading hand switches are automatically more regular and repetitive. And I don't read streams as a single unit either, I do break them up into parts (albeit using a different "algorithm" than EBAWER); when playing long Firce-style deathstreams I hardly ever miss because I misread, I miss because I mechanically mess up a leading hand switch.
I'd also like to repeat that I don't think every stream with hand switches is extremely hard; I already mentioned before that something like kddkddkddkddkddkddkddkddk is simple due to repetition. It's the irregularity of pattern / hand switches that makes a stream truly hard.

Thanks. I guess I do need to play more taiko to recognise the mapped rhythm better.

Anyway, for the example:

Is not the hardest part executing those patterns because of the speed? It's hard to sync two hands that fast for many people, because that skill is mental, so if the map were 180bpm, would you call it easy then? (Not saying I can play it though)

Also my point was on the adjacent repetitive nature of patterns because of group reading, like in the start. Sure the "ddk" pattern appears a lot, but the sections where it is divided between 1/2 notes makes it harder doesn't it, because the repetition is broken? Or are you saying it's the other way around?

Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it. "Mechanical" may just be the word I was looking for. In osu!std I have this problem, and there's only notes and sliders there... much easier by comparison, but there are still problems because of "mechanical" issues with odd/even numbers of notes.

RaneFire wrote:

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.

By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams

Luna wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.

By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams

You know what I mean. The definition of the word was the problem. Stop being stupid about this just because I'm not a pro taiko'er. It's a game, just because I'm not good at it does not mean I'm stupid.

It was also a clarification that did not embody the message I wanted you to read.

I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything, I just disagree on that point.
There are many things that I can read perfectly fine, but can't do mechanically. That's just how it is.

Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk

LunaticP wrote:

Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

Not counting speed limits. Also note that this only has to do with complexity score, nothing else. If you know osu!tp, you'll know std has aim/speed/acc. In Taiko, for example, it would be complexity/speed/acc. If you fill the whole map with ddk, the complexity may be lower, but the speed score will be higher because of density.

I'd like your explanation though, because throwing examples around just clutters the thread. Or at least shoot a hole in my logic that I can see, and let's be done with it.

Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...
ddk ddk d k ddk ddk... would probably feel awkward with a 4/4 signature

Luna wrote:

Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...

yea this
i think just because the single notes are easier to watch timing on
or 5 note pattern repeating instead of 3

LunaticP wrote:

Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

RaneFire wrote:

Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.

Don't feel offended, however you still can't grasp the true difficulty of oni maps (and higher level oni maps) just yet.
The thing is, seeing is one thing, hitting what you see is another. Mechanics used to hit certain things, handswitches especially are really complicated to execute. It looks simple, but it's a really pain in the ass thing to do. People who fully alternate for a long time and are really good at it (like EBAWER) don't feel this mechanic problem as much because it's just natural thing to do, but there are not many people on that level.
Let me put it this way, it's not hard after an insane amount of practice, however that just says how hard it actually is, by seeing how much practice you need with it.

Even on low bpm maps, when I see something like [dddkkkd] at 1/6 inside or at the end of a stream, or even isolated, I still can't hit it. It's really complicated to adjust your rhythm and to perform a handswitch at the same time, at my level. Will take a lot of practice for me to perform it well.

Yeah, I figured my inability to read oni's properly would probably be a flaw. So there's more going on than meets the eye. It's gonna be hard to create system around the subjectivity of each pattern though. Thanks for the replies, some responses are always better than none.

lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?

I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.

RaneFire wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?

I swapped to full alternate because I was unable to do streams longer than 9~ notes (well, monocolors or streams which had 2 same colors if you divide a stream on 2x2x2x2 etc were actually fine) or even most simple chains on bpm higher than 150 (kdddkdddkdddkdddkdddk etc) because my playstyle was to cheese every pattern combination in a way I find it easier to play, so every 3~5 note (except for dkkkd, kkkdd and dkdkk, those were really impossible) was really easy to perform for me in any situation, but put them inside a stream and I'm done for.
Cheesing patterns required a certain way to play them, and streams are just ongoing notes, you can't really "think" on which pattern you have to play while actually playing it, you need some buffer time (I did at least). With training you can get around it I guess, but because of my 2nd problem (chaining simple patterns in a stream) I chose to swap, because the way I learned to play kdd really destroyed my ability to chain kdddkdddkdddk, making my hands entangle and spend insane amounts of strength just to do it badly. You can see it in some of my vids I posted how I cheese the patterns. :p

Now with full alternate, I just hit them naturally and when I see an even amount of dons, I know the next kat is a hand switch.

RaneFire wrote:

I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.

Yeah, I think Orukaa is an inspiration to everyone. :p

While I can still use my old style to play some maps really nicely, I choose not to because full alt is infinitely more fun to me.

Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....

Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style

Select the one you think the hardest

1. ddk k k ddk k k

2. ddk d d ddk d d

3. ddk d k ddk d k

4. ddk k d ddk k d

This result will be put into my program as well

#3 and #4, but they are the same just like #1 and #2

#4 is the hardest for me, then #2, then #3, #1 is the easiest

I have a reason to ask this....

This is to show not only a stream, but the notes after the stream actually make the map looks different. We should not only focus on stream only

Anyway please answer that, because I really want to know the main trend of playing styles

For me it's the same. Maybe #2 would be harder at very high bpm

4->1->2->3 for me, but thats cause i find kat heavy patterns harder than don heavy ones.

Luna wrote:

By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams

ofc you can't

So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?

not functional, play for fun!

yeah, thats why i keep playing normals and hards, because they are fun :>

LunaticP wrote:

Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....

Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style

Select the one you think the hardest

1. ddk k k ddk k k

2. ddk d d ddk d d

3. ddk d k ddk d k

4. ddk k d ddk k d

This result will be put into my program as well

2>1=4>3

I agree with the discussion about "HD = HR" in term of difficulty but if it means that "DT+HD = DT+HR"
That sounds not correct to me because as said earlier HR is harder on High BPM and HD harder on Slow BPM most of time.
When you add DT the BPM is almost everytime more than 200 and it makes DT+HR way harder than DT+HD.
imo (and sorry if this has been already said) DTHR should be way more rewarding than DTHD.

Anyway, what I say would have no sense if you already works on HR high bpm more rewarding than HD high bpm...

Not telling that 95% of taiko maps have their OD >=5, which in DTHR gives you 10 at least, up to 12.

I've been reading through this whole thread and I find myself agreeing with OnosakiHito more than anyone else.

Put to put it simple from me:

BPM, the higher the BPM is, the harder it usually gets.
Patterns, if there is more pattern variety in a single stream the harder it is (complexity)
OD, as it requires more accuracy the higher it is.
HP shouldn't be counted too much, but higher HP drain makes you lose more and gain less HP per note.
Mods. DT highest. HR and HD same. FL disabled due to difficulties with DS players and cheaters.
I wouldn't want to disable HDHR since I find it very playable on BPMs lower than
Standard converts should also be disabled since they're not made to be played on Taiko mode.
No, I'm not saying that they can't be hard, I've played a handful of difficult converts that were fun too, but it doesn't change the fact they were made for Standard, not Taiko. If you think disabling it is too drastic, then at least they should count as FAR less than Taiko specifics.

I put my thoughts into this very lazily so please yell at me if you want me to explain something more or you disagree with me.
Pretty sure all these points have been stated so dont mind me \o/

I still haven't seen a reasonable argument on why standard converted difficulties should not be weighted equally under the same circumstances as taiko specific difficulties should.
"They are not meant to be played in taiko mode" is just stupid. Might as well remove rankings on converted maps completely then. If they are so bad that they shouldn't get taken into account for the pp ranking what is the point in them existing? Besides, those opinions are always based on subjectivity, which shouldn't influence the ranking at all.
For example, if a converted map basically just goes d d k d d d k [...] just treat it the same way you would treat a taiko specific map going like that (even though that's unlikely to happen but you get the point) instead of straight up removing them entirely from the ranking.

Sorry if I repeated anything what has already been said, I haven't followed this thread at all.

There are so many Normal diffs which get converted into something so insanely dumb that I don't even want to start describing how they look. And yes they look harder than insanes, the only easier things are OD and HP.

"Not meant to be played in taiko", how is that not reasonable?
As long as standard converts don't meet the ranking criteria (and never will), I vote against them being counted towards pp. While some may convert well, most of them don't. Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.

I think you should be careful if you use rankable as the judging point. Some taiko maps actually step between rank and unrank. And if someone find a map which is converted but looks rankable this may lead to more argument.

In technical way i need to study on how a map is converted to taiko and see a program can calculate that.. ..

lolcubes wrote:

Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.

Except we're trying to judge map difficulty and player skill, not rank maps or judge map quality. If a guy gets a good score on a ridiculously stupid and difficult ranked map, it should count for skill, as long as it's already ranked. Getting a good score on a difficult map of bad quality is still getting a good score on a difficult map.

What cubes is getting at is that many of those maps under taiko ranking criteria wouldn't even have charts at all if they had gone for ranking as taiko maps. Why should we consider scores for maps that have unrankable things in them at all for a mode that we already have hundreds upon hundreds of ranked taiko specific maps that all meet ranking criteria?

Converted maps had their place ages ago when there were very few ranked low difficulty maps for taiko. They filled the LARGE gap between starting taiko fresh, and playing Oni difficulty maps (due to taiko specific mapsets not being rankable back then and people only making Oni guest difficulties)... but now that we have those mapsets, they really don't serve a purpose anymore. While I don't think we should remove the rankings from these maps, we definitely don't need to consider them for our ranking system.

Well, here's my point, Tasha. A lot of this thread is being wasted on the argument on whether or not converts should count or not. Let's wait until a system is actually made, THEN we can decide on what to do with converts. For now, the thread should just be about coming up with a system to work with. Like how much should slider velocity affect difficulty or how much certain bpm would affect difficulty and whatnot.

If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.

well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.

1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.

2.
This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.

3.
I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.

MeeHawk wrote:

This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.

Just because HR raises OD doesn't mean you'd need less rhythmic accuracy or playing HD.
In fact, by making the scrolling speed (or SV in osu terms) faster, it affects your accuracy, usually it makes you play more accurately rather than when you play with low scrolling speed. It might be a bad comparison, but have you ever noticed how usually beatmania IIDX players play with high Hi-Speed (scrolling speed) and a lot of people use curtains as well? It's because reaction time kicks in when you play with faster scrolling and less notes on-screen, often making you more accurate. So HR should stay the same as HD as the difficulty is very equal.
You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.

MeeHawk wrote:

I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.

In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!

Jikson[m9] wrote:

If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.

Agreed. The old pp system was very broken because you could rocket up the ranking list by getting some decent scores on low difficulty converts, so this discussion is much needed if we want a new and working ranking/pp system.

You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.

It's not the same thing.. There's a exact time to hit the notes and you can see it clearly with super high OD.. Try to 100% FC this taiko map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11628 with HR.. That map is easy, but you need to press it at the exact time the note reachs the middle of the hit window.. And as you can see in the ladder of the map, HR really makes a difference when compared to HD. The rythim is the same, but the accuracy is not. So yes, raising OD means something..

In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!

Yes you are right, i didn't explain it well.. I meant that lots of people enjoy playing converted maps, because there are much good ones and gaining pp from playing something you like it is something good imo, even if it's just a bit of pp. And why mapping it myself would be an easy fix? LOL i would spend days and days just to map one song and some weeks/months or even more to get it aproved, and also there are people who works and do stuff on their life, no way it would be an easy fix.

MeeHawk wrote:

1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.

the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more


I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

edit: also to clarifiy I'd give a score more pp the more impressive it is rather than judging by how much skill the score might've taken, I don't feel like the latter is even possible

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.

TimmyAkmed wrote:

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.

maps like mad machine were never a problem in the old system so I don't see why they have to be now

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.

I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.

Oh good point.. now that i'm thinking on it, it would be plausible to say that. *Thumbs up*
Well, maybe Tom can figure out a good way to do this.. But for now I agree with you.

the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more

IT IS impressive, but FL wasn't made to be competitive I think, it is just to show you can memorize stuff

Ever thought about diminishing returns?
It's not hard to code such an algorithm for experienced coders i think.
However, it would really help to take away the fear, that converted maps could count too much.

Let's say you have a stream of 20 or 30 dons in a converted map above 200 bpm, which is still hard but not seen as "skilled" for taiko as you state.
Now the diminishing returns comes into effect:

The first don will give 100% of points (invisible ones, since it shouldn't affect the way of the scoring).
2nd: 50%
3rd: 25%
4th: 12.50%
5th: 6.25%
...
and so on.
If there is a Kat, it will give 100% points again and reset the multiplier for the next don to 100% again also.

So if there is a map with very little variation and much spamming, it would only give a little amount of points compared to taiko specific maps with much variation.

You could also let the system detect repetitive patterns and give less points for every same pattern as the previous.
This way "dkdkdkdkdkdkdkdkdk" wouldn't give 100% all the time because it is repetitive.

So that is why i said, if you have a good algorithm, you really don't need to fear, that converted maps could count too much, because if they'd do, the algorithm would be wrong.

Greetings,
NoYzE

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.

The issue in my opinion is that a huge amount of standard conversions is pretty easy for the most part and then has a few stupid long 1/8 streams. Even if your pattern and accuracy skills are mediocre, you'd be able to farm lots of pp by getting ridiculous speed values if you can just mash fast enough.
For example, take Kanburisa. The patterns are super simple, but that 400 BPM deathstream lasts forever. A few people can mash fast enough to FC that, but does it mean they could play a regular 270 BPM map? No, absolutely not. Some of them can (Orukaa for example), but the mashing speed nesseccary for Kanburisa and similar maps does not automatically transfer into "real" skill.
If the calculation method for the speed value is even remotely similar to how it is in standard, converted maps will be imbalanced. I don't think they should be completely ignored in pp calculations, but definitely weighted less heavily.

I'm glad my solution to this is ignored

Your solution doesn't really work since long monocolor streams are actually surprisingly hard to play properly.
This does not apply to mashing 1/8 though

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.

Agreed.

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.

Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......
Please. It's not even that we're trying to make converts look bad, it's a matter of opinion, and most of us think that 99% of the converts are pretty shit.
I never said there weren't good converts. But especially when we have this many ranked taiko map sets, I don't see the need of having converts give pp, I think we should still let them have scoreboards.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.

We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/
We have suggested fixes, we have explained why we have our opinions, and they're all very reasonable, I don't see how they're not.

Converted maps should be weighted fully. It's not enough to say that converted maps are terribly easy/badly mapped, because there are songs that are converted extremely well. If we do start to rank on note density, patterns, etc. (all the suggestions in this thread), it'll be enough to allow converts a fair chance in Taiko.
I have yet to find a compelling argument in this thread.

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.

I must admit that i changed my mind, after playing a lot of specific maps and becoming a lot better over the past weeks.

While you have common patterns in specific maps you can learn and improve to read and play them more accurate and faster, you can't really learn patterns in converted maps, because there are no
Also, converted maps are often bad for alternating because of "sudden" big dons and kats, leading to bad habits for new players.

So i agree now that we should encourage the use of specific maps over converted maps.
But having "dead" maps without any ranking wouldn't be osu either.
So we should give them some influence but weight them less than specific maps.

edit: I started playing converted at the beginning only because there are really few ranked beginner maps in my opinion and the difficulty is very hard and fast rising for new players even on futsuu (only here in osu, not in TnT).
So if you want specific maps to become more popular among all groups of players including new players, we should take a closer look on advanced beginner maps connecting beginner maps to the advanced ones, and also take a look on the taiko map-packs, since it's very difficult to find all the taiko specific beginner maps that are not in the 2 packs.

TimmyAkmed wrote:

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.

If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.

_Gezo_ wrote:

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.

I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff.

My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95895&m=1 Despite only being a don map, finishers at the beginning and end of streams are just god damn awful.

I already said all I wanted to say though, just contributing with really bad conversion examples. This used to be in my top performance for ages as well.

Tasha what is your address I want to ship one million gold medals your way.

PS: Dont give me your address, but you still deserve that victory fanfare from Final Fantasy at least!

You basically just said everything I wasn't able to word well.

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.

for now is no

the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4

LunaticP wrote:

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.

for now is no

the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4

This would be a good fix but it's a bit too late as a lot of people will complain and be like "but omg all the difficulty came from the fast notes and now all the mediocre players can beat us boo hoo "

Tasha wrote:

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines.

i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable

i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable

I agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert

Keep in mind, there's a difference between hard and things that aren't good for the map / gameplay.

Using the default playstyle as an example, lets use a pattern like ddKdd. This requires left / right / left+right / right / left. The reason this is unrankable is because it requires you to switch from 1/4 alternating to 1/4 one handed in order to get full points, and at higher bpms / in streams this isn't possible. A more extreme example of this would be DdDdD as it requires 1/4 on one hand for the full 5 notes. As a ddkk player I could play this, but could a kddk player play something like that extended to say 10 notes in a 1/4 stream at 240bpm? Another (main) reason this isn't rankable is the overlapping and hitbox errors that can be caused due to finishers mixed into streams.

As for slider velocities, there's technically no unrankable SV, but the SV should still fit the pacing of the song, and it just so happens with BPM multipliers that 1.4 and 1.6 happen to be the best pacings in most cases. Don't expect to rank a song with hyperspeed SV all the way through as it doesn't fit the songs pacing.

Tasha wrote:

My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.

I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.

Nobody stops people who prefer to play the quality ranked taiko maps from playing them. You will not be forced to play every single map with the new pp system. As with standard only your best scores will count a lot, and trust me, there are more than enough ranked taiko maps for achieving your pp peak.

What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?

Nashmun wrote:

What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?

I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.

I'm all for giving things a try, but my concerns will still be there until the results are visible. Let's see what you can pull off Tom.

I believe in Tom
He did impressive work for the standard ranking and lifted it to the next level worth calling ppv2.

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever

actually i'd like to know how the current broken temporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores

Ehh...
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever

actually i'd like to know how the current broken temporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface

Players will still have to get great scores. The metric is called "performance points", not "potential points".
Also the current broken algorithm simply does the following:

1. Multiply accuracy with star rating of the map (up to a maximum of 500)
2. Divide result by 3 if converted
3. Build the diminishing sum of the best scores for every player

That also makes it pretty obvious why it's not working well, heh? Still better than nothing - that's why it exists for now.

There should be a way to convert maps better than it does at the moment and still keep the combo score ratio the same.
Streams might be the biggest obstacle but I believe it is possible. :<

NoYzE wrote:

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores

Ehh...
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?

ideally hell yea

i mean the players that don't specifically have a lot of scores but still have some that are really good blah blah you know what i mean

quality vs quantity how will it play out overall

I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?

Sy[K]es wrote:

I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?

You are still thinking inside the box, namely that of the old system.

ppv2 has a beatmap difficulty algorithm, meaning this is what needs to be worked out precisely to get accurate results. Your performance is a statistical analysis compared with a perfect performance on the map. Player ranks in comparison to each other on a single map should be irrelevant. That was the problem with the old system for many reasons.

I'm sure there will be a LOT of testing. When tp first came about, it wasn't anything like it is now, and Tom tweaked it a lot, even adding a new variable (aim). I'm not predicting it's initial failure for taiko, but there is only room for improvement upon the algorithm, even if the first results may be completely off.

I've got some initial difficulty lists to show off here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VGc#gid=1

This spreadsheet does not contain every single beatmap, only the ones I selected for testing. Please give me feedback and let me know which version of the algorithm works the best.

Hum, for me it seems like the basic algorithm is the most accurate.

The others one still have some weird results like Freedom Dive's oni > Inner oni while it's the contrary or still a duckling > I'm your daddy Fatal oni which is the opposite aswell.

I still need to look at it more closely though.

Yeah, same goes for HIT AND RUN IN 1920 A.D. and NNRT (which should be placed a lot lower normally)
But from first look things don't seem to be very far off, well done so far

With colour changes w/o converts:



sacrifice and chipscape taikosakis are easier than who's your daddy or akasha, also gothic system is much harder than taikosakis not just a little


This is a lengthy post but please bear with me~

Some of these are human some of these are inhuman and some of these are easy, I wanna see what your programm thinks of these maps :3c

Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2f9ibeu4yk8e ... nsekai.osz
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2f9ibeu4yk8e ... e%2008.osz
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k22ut3jyjn9j ... 20Ruby.osz

Nashmun wrote:

Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed

most of the maps listed i've never played because of wtfbpm and me being slowface so i'd like to know this

otherwise goodbye to my rank i'll see you all in hell

Nashmun wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931

THIS MAP.
dafuq

Added another algorithm version, considering rhythm changes, to the end. Will add more versions when I get back home.
Here the link again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VGc#gid=1

I think the pattern difficulty needs to be improved quite a bit - right now chipscape and Broken the Moon have the same rating (45). I could FC chipscape if I actually tried (and I'm really not very good at high BPM), but I'm not even able to pass Broken the Moon.
Even with problems like that, it looks SO much better than what we're used to having, so good job.

I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.

While it's understandable that everyone is focusing more on how the converts get converted and how the hard maps get valued, but let's talk about lower maps a little.

We have *** Passionate (TV Size) which is valued the same as Dragons. I FCd Passionate with hard rock where I barely get an A on Dragons, with a low combo. Dragons is so much harder because of really odd rhythms and because it's kinda long compared to the TV Size thing.

Then you have Hades in the Heaven which is valued slightly above but then you have a couple of much easier maps, namely Night of Fire by lepidon which is a lot higher above. Certain pattern chain in the middle of the map make Hades really really hard to FC, while Night of Fire has quite simple patterns and is something I consider a beginner's map. Thank you for playing isn't that difficult either and it's even further above.

Also in the mid class you have Intersect Thunderbolt 7491's Oni which is below Ernst Oni. I highly disagree with this, despite Ernst being a bit more pattern heavy. The patterns in Ernst aren't difficult, it's just slightly a more dense map, but in Intersect Thunderbolt you have high speed pattern changes, namely a quite hard 1/3 stream to perform correctly due to it's bpm which contains multiple hand swaps.

Just some thoughts.

TimmyAkmed wrote:

I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.

No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.



I like this, it's really close to a real difficulty. Though 51 is harder than chipscape.

I gave you the wrong version of one of the maps I suggested, here is the interesting one :

http://puu.sh/72lL2.zip

@lolcubes, you are right, but focusing on high-tier maps (not including Firces forces and cie though) is good to have a global overview of how each aspect are weighted, which is more difficult to see on standards onis and uber-insane ones.

EBAWER123 wrote:

No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.

I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.

And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"

TimmyAkmed wrote:

EBAWER123 wrote:

No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.

I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.

And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"

Since the bonus in score is so small and there are no disadvantages over normal notes when hitting them like normal notes I don't think they should coult as "difficulty". If they'd break combo or reduce accuracy if hit wrong, then I'd agree with you more.

But even if I did agree, it'd be impossible to check scores for having hit big notes with 2 buttons, which in turn makes it impossible to have sensible pp calculations if big notes would be factored in as difficulty.

Tom94 wrote:

Since the bonus in score is so small

missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that small

AnFace wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Since the bonus in score is so small

missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that small

Relative to a map with maybe 2,000 hit circles it is. But yeah, depending on how many hit circles there are and how many big notes there are the bonus can also be big, I stand corrected.

The rest of the argument still stands, though.

Looking at the most recent one, I'd say its pretty accurate towards the top. Mad Machine being at the top is expected if we're going to weigh converts equally due to the stupidly high speed of the converted streams, and the taiko maps themselves are ordered pretty well. Some of the maps that I'd consider to be harder have harder finisher patterns in them, which aren't weighted by the system now from what I read.

It might be a good idea to come up with some way of weighting finishers because honestly they are a pretty big deal in how maps are read. As an example, The first kiai for Loctav's Oni in this mapset in its current state is absolutely insane to read the finisher section towards the end (and some of it is unrankable, but I digress), and is notably harder than the same pattern without finishers to read.

Tasha wrote:

Looking at the most recent one, I'd say its pretty accurate towards the top. Mad Machine being at the top is expected if we're going to weigh converts equally due to the stupidly high speed of the converted streams, and the taiko maps themselves are ordered pretty well. Some of the maps that I'd consider to be harder have harder finisher patterns in them, which aren't weighted by the system now from what I read.

It might be a good idea to come up with some way of weighting finishers because honestly they are a pretty big deal in how maps are read. As an example, Loctav's Oni for this map in its current state is absolutely insane to read the finisher section towards the end (and some of it is unrankable, but i digress), and is notably harder than the same pattern without finishers to read.

I'd love to give finishers a proper bonus, but since it's impossible to check whether a player hit the finishers or not this would greatly overvalue maps with finishers when applied to pp for people who did not play them correctly.
Also glad to hear, that the recent version looks good.

I'll check the other feedback regarding specific maps when I find time and will try to work around it.

What about just applying a bonus for finishers that are in denser parts of the map? Even if the finishers aren't hit, its still technically harder to read them. My previous example (while exaggerated) shows that quite well imo.

Tasha wrote:

What about just applying a bonus for finishers that are in denser parts of the map? Even if the finishers aren't hit, its still technically harder to read them. My previous example (while exaggerated) shows that quite well imo.

As said in the private discussion I just had with you: Finishers can be skinned small, so they don't make reading more challenging. :/

As Tom said, we can't tell if a player hit the big note with both keys or as a regular note. If we give a bonus to a map due to its finishers, some people will just play them as if they don't exist and earn a lot of pp, while others players will try to hit them and fail.

Yes it does affect the reading, but if you play them like regular notes, you can make abstraction of the finisher pretty easily (Also some players can change their skin too)

Already discussed it with Tom in private, and unfortunately there really is no way to work finishers into the algorithm.

It could be possible if the condition is a full combo though. There is extra score after all.
Could have small calculation issues with sliders though, but they give only a certain amount of score so...

Out of curiosity, how are sliders calculated then? You don't have to hit a slider to full combo, but it should show skill too, there are some maps where sliders become absolutely brutal if you have DT activated. Unreal BPMs and all (above 300).