RaneFire wrote:
So I read the whole thread... and this patterns stuff seems to be going back and forth.
I should probably mention how bad I am first, so take my post as a long-winded opinion. Shoot me down if you must, but I'm interested in taiko nonetheless..
The ranking system needs to rank all players. I'm practically a newbie, despite playing occasionally in the past, only playing muzu's and trying to delve into oni's occasionally, but it's hard. The reason I can't play those oni's is because of the non-repetitive patterns which are very randomised long streams or randomised short patterns with gaps. (Random = non-repetitive) These are just too hard... But when a pattern repeats, no matter where, even in a long stream or with a gap, it is very easy to read and play, even with hand changes. It just needs to repeat only once, and reading is far easier.
Ebawer's example of how you break up reading patterns is correct... I'm noob and already do it. I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.
Instead of determining which patterns are easier, we should give all patterns a static difficulty based only on their length, up to 5 or 6 notes (including streams)... and rather than rank their difficulty, instead create an algorithm for identifying these patterns (and lengths) and only weight the randomness of the patterns used, i.e. repetition vs non-repetition. You could get more into the specifics of breaking-up the easy ddddkkkk patterns or dkdkdkdkdk, but that's not hard to do.
I think including 62 patterns into some difficulty hierarchy algorithm is going to be far too much work to balance correctly between play styles. The randomness between these patterns is the only thing you can work with. Pattern groups with a random/non-repetitive nature that go on for longer would be worth more "complexity" score. It should also carefully consider odd and even pattern groups though, like having 1 pattern repeated in between a different pattern every time.
This would also solve your auto-convert problem... I think, because they're objectively broken. The hard ones would stay hard, and the easy ones with 1/8 spam would be worth nothing. Ignore rolls and spinners too from calculation... I don't think those have anything to do with skill... just mashing speed.
I'm wearing my bulls-eye T-shirt today.
Nope, this is not true.RaneFire wrote:
I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.
LunaticP wrote:
Totally disagree sorry.
First don't call a patten random, no patten is random only if you map in random mood and make it shit. Every patten have its meaning and effect in the map. If the map continue to repeat a patten it looks shit already. And I assume mapper talking in here are not mapping shit.
If you really think a patten is random you should play more and you will not think in that way.
Second in a player's angle, I actually don't know how many times the patten(e.g ddk) have appeared. I play when I see the patten, no matter if that patten appear before. The most extreme case is this.
And on your logic, you think that the program should only check how many times a patten appeared? Then the example map given is really easy right? Please explain on your point on this.
Luna wrote:
Nope, this is not true.
Patterns that don't require leading hand switches are automatically more regular and repetitive. And I don't read streams as a single unit either, I do break them up into parts (albeit using a different "algorithm" than EBAWER); when playing long Firce-style deathstreams I hardly ever miss because I misread, I miss because I mechanically mess up a leading hand switch.
I'd also like to repeat that I don't think every stream with hand switches is extremely hard; I already mentioned before that something like kddkddkddkddkddkddkddkddk is simple due to repetition. It's the irregularity of pattern / hand switches that makes a stream truly hard.
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streamsRaneFire wrote:
IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
You know what I mean. The definition of the word was the problem. Stop being stupid about this just because I'm not a pro taiko'er. It's a game, just because I'm not good at it does not mean I'm stupid.Luna wrote:
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streamsRaneFire wrote:
IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddkLunaticP wrote:
Just answer this , which one you think is easier?
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk
2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk
3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
yea thisLuna wrote:
Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.LunaticP wrote:
Just answer this , which one you think is easier?
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk
2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk
3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
Don't feel offended, however you still can't grasp the true difficulty of oni maps (and higher level oni maps) just yet.RaneFire wrote:
Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?lolcubes wrote:
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
I swapped to full alternate because I was unable to do streams longer than 9~ notes (well, monocolors or streams which had 2 same colors if you divide a stream on 2x2x2x2 etc were actually fine) or even most simple chains on bpm higher than 150 (kdddkdddkdddkdddkdddk etc) because my playstyle was to cheese every pattern combination in a way I find it easier to play, so every 3~5 note (except for dkkkd, kkkdd and dkdkk, those were really impossible) was really easy to perform for me in any situation, but put them inside a stream and I'm done for.RaneFire wrote:
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?lolcubes wrote:
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
Yeah, I think Orukaa is an inspiration to everyone. :pRaneFire wrote:
I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.
ofc you can'tLuna wrote:
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams
WemadeFOX-solo wrote:
So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?
2>1=4>3LunaticP wrote:
Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....
Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style
Select the one you think the hardest
1. ddk k k ddk k k
2. ddk d d ddk d d
3. ddk d k ddk d k
4. ddk k d ddk k d
This result will be put into my program as well
Except we're trying to judge map difficulty and player skill, not rank maps or judge map quality. If a guy gets a good score on a ridiculously stupid and difficult ranked map, it should count for skill, as long as it's already ranked. Getting a good score on a difficult map of bad quality is still getting a good score on a difficult map.lolcubes wrote:
Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.
well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.1.
Just because HR raises OD doesn't mean you'd need less rhythmic accuracy or playing HD.MeeHawk wrote:
This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.
In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.MeeHawk wrote:
I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.
Agreed. The old pp system was very broken because you could rocket up the ranking list by getting some decent scores on low difficulty converts, so this discussion is much needed if we want a new and working ranking/pp system.Jikson[m9] wrote:
If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.
You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.It's not the same thing.. There's a exact time to hit the notes and you can see it clearly with super high OD.. Try to 100% FC this taiko map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11628 with HR.. That map is easy, but you need to press it at the exact time the note reachs the middle of the hit window.. And as you can see in the ladder of the map, HR really makes a difference when compared to HD. The rythim is the same, but the accuracy is not. So yes, raising OD means something..
In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.Yes you are right, i didn't explain it well.. I meant that lots of people enjoy playing converted maps, because there are much good ones and gaining pp from playing something you like it is something good imo, even if it's just a bit of pp. And why mapping it myself would be an easy fix? LOL i would spend days and days just to map one song and some weeks/months or even more to get it aproved, and also there are people who works and do stuff on their life, no way it would be an easy fix.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)MeeHawk wrote:
1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.agu wrote:
I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
maps like mad machine were never a problem in the old system so I don't see why they have to be nowTimmyAkmed wrote:
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.agu wrote:
I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.Oh good point.. now that i'm thinking on it, it would be plausible to say that. *Thumbs up*
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)IT IS impressive, but FL wasn't made to be competitive I think, it is just to show you can memorize stuff
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more
Agreed.EBAWER123 wrote:
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......EBAWER123 wrote:
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.
We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/EBAWER123 wrote:
You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.
If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.TimmyAkmed wrote:
The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff._Gezo_ wrote:
on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1
play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
This would be a good fix but it's a bit too late as a lot of people will complain and be like "but omg all the difficulty came from the fast notes and now all the mediocre players can beat us boo hooLunaticP wrote:
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4
"i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmTasha wrote:
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines.
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmI agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert
i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable
on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?
summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.Tasha wrote:
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.
As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.
As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.
Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.Nashmun wrote:
What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...
By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
Players will still have to get great scores. The metric is called "performance points", not "potential points".AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever
actually i'd like to know how the currentbrokentemporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface
ideally hell yeaNoYzE wrote:
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?
You are still thinking inside the box, namely that of the old system.Sy[K]es wrote:
I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?
most of the maps listed i've never played because of wtfbpm and me being slowface so i'd like to know thisNashmun wrote:
Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed
THIS MAP.Nashmun wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931
TimmyAkmed wrote:
I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
Since the bonus in score is so small and there are no disadvantages over normal notes when hitting them like normal notes I don't think they should coult as "difficulty". If they'd break combo or reduce accuracy if hit wrong, then I'd agree with you more.TimmyAkmed wrote:
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small
Relative to a map with maybe 2,000 hit circles it is. But yeah, depending on how many hit circles there are and how many big notes there are the bonus can also be big, I stand corrected.AnFace wrote:
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small