4->1->2->3 for me, but thats cause i find kat heavy patterns harder than don heavy ones.
ofc you can'tLuna wrote:
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams
WemadeFOX-solo wrote:
So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?
2>1=4>3LunaticP wrote:
Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....
Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style
Select the one you think the hardest
1. ddk k k ddk k k
2. ddk d d ddk d d
3. ddk d k ddk d k
4. ddk k d ddk k d
This result will be put into my program as well
Except we're trying to judge map difficulty and player skill, not rank maps or judge map quality. If a guy gets a good score on a ridiculously stupid and difficult ranked map, it should count for skill, as long as it's already ranked. Getting a good score on a difficult map of bad quality is still getting a good score on a difficult map.lolcubes wrote:
Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.
well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.1.
Just because HR raises OD doesn't mean you'd need less rhythmic accuracy or playing HD.MeeHawk wrote:
This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.
In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.MeeHawk wrote:
I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.
Agreed. The old pp system was very broken because you could rocket up the ranking list by getting some decent scores on low difficulty converts, so this discussion is much needed if we want a new and working ranking/pp system.Jikson[m9] wrote:
If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.
You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.It's not the same thing.. There's a exact time to hit the notes and you can see it clearly with super high OD.. Try to 100% FC this taiko map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11628 with HR.. That map is easy, but you need to press it at the exact time the note reachs the middle of the hit window.. And as you can see in the ladder of the map, HR really makes a difference when compared to HD. The rythim is the same, but the accuracy is not. So yes, raising OD means something..
In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.Yes you are right, i didn't explain it well.. I meant that lots of people enjoy playing converted maps, because there are much good ones and gaining pp from playing something you like it is something good imo, even if it's just a bit of pp. And why mapping it myself would be an easy fix? LOL i would spend days and days just to map one song and some weeks/months or even more to get it aproved, and also there are people who works and do stuff on their life, no way it would be an easy fix.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)MeeHawk wrote:
1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.agu wrote:
I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
maps like mad machine were never a problem in the old system so I don't see why they have to be nowTimmyAkmed wrote:
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.agu wrote:
I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.Oh good point.. now that i'm thinking on it, it would be plausible to say that. *Thumbs up*
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)IT IS impressive, but FL wasn't made to be competitive I think, it is just to show you can memorize stuff
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more
Agreed.EBAWER123 wrote:
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......EBAWER123 wrote:
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.
We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/EBAWER123 wrote:
You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.
If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.TimmyAkmed wrote:
The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff._Gezo_ wrote:
on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1
play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
This would be a good fix but it's a bit too late as a lot of people will complain and be like "but omg all the difficulty came from the fast notes and now all the mediocre players can beat us boo hooLunaticP wrote:
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmTasha wrote:
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines.
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmI agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert
i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable
on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?
summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.Tasha wrote:
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.
As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.
As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.
Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.Nashmun wrote:
What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...
By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
Players will still have to get great scores. The metric is called "performance points", not "potential points".AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever
actually i'd like to know how the currentbrokentemporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface
ideally hell yeaNoYzE wrote:
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?
You are still thinking inside the box, namely that of the old system.Sy[K]es wrote:
I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?
most of the maps listed i've never played because of wtfbpm and me being slowface so i'd like to know thisNashmun wrote:
Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed
THIS MAP.Nashmun wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931
TimmyAkmed wrote:
I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
Since the bonus in score is so small and there are no disadvantages over normal notes when hitting them like normal notes I don't think they should coult as "difficulty". If they'd break combo or reduce accuracy if hit wrong, then I'd agree with you more.TimmyAkmed wrote:
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small
Relative to a map with maybe 2,000 hit circles it is. But yeah, depending on how many hit circles there are and how many big notes there are the bonus can also be big, I stand corrected.AnFace wrote:
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small
I'd love to give finishers a proper bonus, but since it's impossible to check whether a player hit the finishers or not this would greatly overvalue maps with finishers when applied to pp for people who did not play them correctly.Tasha wrote:
Looking at the most recent one, I'd say its pretty accurate towards the top. Mad Machine being at the top is expected if we're going to weigh converts equally due to the stupidly high speed of the converted streams, and the taiko maps themselves are ordered pretty well. Some of the maps that I'd consider to be harder have harder finisher patterns in them, which aren't weighted by the system now from what I read.
It might be a good idea to come up with some way of weighting finishers because honestly they are a pretty big deal in how maps are read. As an example, Loctav's Oni for this map in its current state is absolutely insane to read the finisher section towards the end (and some of it is unrankable, but i digress), and is notably harder than the same pattern without finishers to read.
As said in the private discussion I just had with you: Finishers can be skinned small, so they don't make reading more challenging. :/Tasha wrote:
What about just applying a bonus for finishers that are in denser parts of the map? Even if the finishers aren't hit, its still technically harder to read them. My previous example (while exaggerated) shows that quite well imo.
Yes, that's what I said. Any BPM above 200 with DT applied make them over 300 BPM real time._Gezo_ wrote:
They become brutal above 200 1/4 DT @cubes.
And past 250 you come to 1/2 ticks :U
The first issue you mentioned seems to be well fixed in the newest list. Regarding hades in the heaven, the difference between the maps you called and this one seems to have shrunk, but there still is quite a gap.lolcubes wrote:
While it's understandable that everyone is focusing more on how the converts get converted and how the hard maps get valued, but let's talk about lower maps a little.
We have *** Passionate (TV Size) which is valued the same as Dragons. I FCd Passionate with hard rock where I barely get an A on Dragons, with a low combo. Dragons is so much harder because of really odd rhythms and because it's kinda long compared to the TV Size thing.
Then you have Hades in the Heaven which is valued slightly above but then you have a couple of much easier maps, namely Night of Fire by lepidon which is a lot higher above. Certain pattern chain in the middle of the map make Hades really really hard to FC, while Night of Fire has quite simple patterns and is something I consider a beginner's map. Thank you for playing isn't that difficult either and it's even further above.
Also in the mid class you have Intersect Thunderbolt 7491's Oni which is below Ernst Oni. I highly disagree with this, despite Ernst being a bit more pattern heavy. The patterns in Ernst aren't difficult, it's just slightly a more dense map, but in Intersect Thunderbolt you have high speed pattern changes, namely a quite hard 1/3 stream to perform correctly due to it's bpm which contains multiple hand swaps.
Just some thoughts.
Can't selectively apply mods for some maps for now. That'd require some very unnecessary program loogic for the final purpose if weighting pp and (imho) is a waste of time to implement. If the algorithm works well with the current maps you throw at it, then it should work well with pretty much any map and thus also those DT maps. All it does is create a new map with 1.5 the speed anyway.Luna wrote:
Tom, could you possibly add some DT maps to the difficulty list so we can see how those are rated?
Stuff like this maybe:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/132889&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/214251&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/267841&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/153886&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/161275&m=1
All of those are hard DT maps, some moreso than others. I'd just like to see what your program thinks of them.
Thanks!
Sliders can't really be factored in for the same reasons as big notes. There might be one way to do it, though, which is to consider score relative to the maximum possible score instead of things like 300, 100, 50 and miss counts.lolcubes wrote:
It could be possible if the condition is a full combo though. There is extra score after all.
Could have small calculation issues with sliders though, but they give only a certain amount of score so...
Out of curiosity, how are sliders calculated then? You don't have to hit a slider to full combo, but it should show skill too, there are some maps where sliders become absolutely brutal if you have DT activated. Unreal BPMs and all (above 300).
That means implementing pp with it. Can't go and post gigantic lists with 30,000+ entries.Nashmun wrote:
From what we are sawing, I think we can give it a try so that we can see how it goes for every maps instead of a limited list and then adjust the algorithm little by little
Nashmun wrote:
Yeah I know, just saying that implementing it with pp would help us understand more how it weight every maps and then adjust the algorithm to be even more accurate
I don't think using the difficulty values it can be any worse than what currently is in place. It's not yet decided how it will be done, though.Luna wrote:
Since a full implementation in the current state would probably cause a lot of confusion/panic in the community, maybe we can get a thing like ppy did with the initial standard ppv2 testing, where he'd have a seperate (hidden) ppv2 ranking to observe changes etc? If you'd post the link to that ranking in this thread, we could give way more specific feedback without confusing the general public.
You didn't get the reason I called them though hehe.Tom94 wrote:
The thunderbolt vs ernst thing is very similar, you even called the 1/3 out... there's not much the algorithm can do in that regard. Also 1/3 can be trained just as easily as 1/4 - the only reason many people are bad at them is because they are so uncommon.
Pattern difficulty can only be considered to a certain extent due to subjectivity and due to the fact, that for the algorithm there is no way to find out about "1/3" or "1/4"How so? Given the BPM, can't you calculate the timing between the notes? Or just scan them from the .osu?
The bpm specified by the mapper can't be trusted... just look at The Big Black. And even if it could be trusted, there still would be songs which naturally require 1/3 most of the time, making 1/4 in turn harder. There is no general consensus, that 1/3 is harder thsn 1/4. And on top of that it's a very subjective thing - many people tell me, that 1/3 isn't hard for them at all.lolcubes wrote:
You didn't get the reason I called them though hehe.Tom94 wrote:
The thunderbolt vs ernst thing is very similar, you even called the 1/3 out... there's not much the algorithm can do in that regard. Also 1/3 can be trained just as easily as 1/4 - the only reason many people are bad at them is because they are so uncommon.
The thing is, the kat patterns in that 1/3 stream are very difficult. Despite being slower than 1/4, that bpm is still very high and you have multiple hand switches during the 1/3 stream, in addition to no hand switches at the first part of the stream, which is odd for a 1/3 based rhythm.
That's why I consider it much harder, because before I changed my playstyle I could almost FC Ernst (had an unlucky miss), while I would consistently get destroyed on that 1/3 stream, which is why I think Ernst being above isn't as realistic.
Besides, now when I swapped my playstyle to full alt and began training from scratch so my skill is much lower than it used to be, I can still get a B or A if lucky on Ernst, while I still can't pass Intersect.
No rush in fixing this, I'm sure you have other priorities, but I am just explaining this better since you seem to have misunderstood my 1/3 call over there.Pattern difficulty can only be considered to a certain extent due to subjectivity and due to the fact, that for the algorithm there is no way to find out about "1/3" or "1/4"How so? Given the BPM, can't you calculate the timing between the notes? Or just scan them from the .osu?
EBAWER123 wrote:
1/3 is slower than 1/4 so it's easier, no?
Also I don't see any point in calculating sliders and finishers in difficulty, have u ever played TnT on arcade? Noone ever hits big notes on hard maps, lol. Sliders, spinners and finishers just give me score, you don't really have any difficulties with them, given the same acc and mods, person with more score will get more pp, I thought it worked this way. Ot at least it should be like this I think.
On a side note, people who play ddkk/kkdd or kddk on the numpad like pm___ can hit finishers with 1 hand even on kddk due to the layout of numpad so for people like these hitting finishers is not a difficulty but instead free points
P.S. It would be really cool to have rating of songs not just players somewhere maybe not on the main site but like a .txt file on dropbox or smthn which would automatically update with each ranked map.
The point of BPM was you can get the timelines where the notes are snapped and by this you can detect how far are from each other. You don't need exact bpm to determine the difficulty of a stream.Tom94 wrote:
The bpm specified by the mapper can't be trusted... just look at The Big Black. And even if it could be trusted, there still would be songs which naturally require 1/3 most of the time, making 1/4 in turn harder. There is no general consensus, that 1/3 is harder thsn 1/4. And on top of that it's a very subjective thing - many people tell me, that 1/3 isn't hard for them at all.
And what speaks against 100ms being 1/4 on some other bpm? There is no way to find out whether something is 1/3 (or any multiple) or 1/4 (or any multiple) without trusting mapper information, whether it is the specified BPM or timings. This is not reliable and abusable, therefore can't be used. Wouldn't you find it strange if an exact same map suddenly became harder, just because someone decided to adjust the BPM to something possibly wrong without moving the hit objects?lolcubes wrote:
The point of BPM was you can get the timelines where the notes are snapped and by this you can detect how far are from each other. You don't need exact bpm to determine the difficulty of a stream.
For example, if two notes are apart by 75ms that means they can be 1/4 on 200, 1/8 on 100 or even 1/2 on 400 BPM. If it's 100ms then it can be 1/3 on 200 BPM, 1/6 on 100 BPM and 2/3 on 400 BPM.
I'm not missing the point. Trust me, I understand you. There are also patterns which are very hard to play on 1/4 which in turn get easier on 1/3.lolcubes wrote:
You are still missing the point of the 1/3. 1/3 isn't hard to hit by default, the kat patterns inside is what can make it really weird to play. [...]