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XK2238
2,067 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

Flashlight
Should be disabled or give no points. Too often there was a problem with this mod.
Most people do not play it and it has been often abused (HD+FL+HR). That's my opinion.
This, flashlight may be an challenge to the player but shouldn't influence in the ladder at all, people are just abusing of it to raise pp.
well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.

EBAWER123 wrote:

The whole ranking is about becoming better, not hiding in the corner and playing only in your comfort zone. Playing higher BPM, increasing your stamina, your reading skills, trying new mods, increasing your accuracy; striving to be better - isn't this the whole point of having a higher rank than someone else?
THIS. I didn't train my accuracy, deserving me a lower rank; but trying mod combinations that other people (or, to say the most, anyone) don't/can't (talking about individual song-wise, not overall) clearly helped me raise a lot.

_Gezo_ wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Basically I see it like (vision based mods. HD/HR/FL only affect vision): (HD = HR) < HD+HR < FL < FL+HR < FL+HD < FL+HD+HR
DT is an extra factor, increasing OD and BPM and therefore should be calculated into the difficulty where note density calculations happen.

HR affects OD as well. Else, well you'd see many more HRDT scores on average BPM songs (that is 110-140 bpm range no more)
HRHD is not impossible to read, it's very tough and playable at a very limited range !
FL+HD+anything is "memorization", FL+HR is also memorization (except when BPM gets abusively low) as you have a ridiculous reading timespan.
[/color]
my agreements are highlighted in red.

LunaticP wrote:

anyway actually different people may divide stream in different way, hard to say who is right
yes, since this thing itself is obviously subjective.

- Yuuka Niya - wrote:

Something I want to say:
① OD of course higher OD means higher pp
②mod I think DT>HR=HD>FL of course. Or you can just let FL≈0.(HR+HD) should not be more than( HR)+(HD).So is HDFL and HRFL and HDHRFL
③of course Taiko only maps far more than converted maps.From pp now I think 3 times is not enough.Maybe it should be 5 timers or more.
④The difficulty of the map itself. I think this is the most important.There are many points.
(1)BPM this BPM is the REAL BPM but not what the mapper give us. For example, the big black should be calculated as 180BPM but not 360.
(2)Change of the colors. I only have a theory of calculate the difficulty of a stream.I'm trying to translate it to English.
(3)Rhythm change. 1/6+1/4 is harder than 1/4 only of course.
(4)Note density. I think this one needn't be explained.
(5)Star rate. That's really means nothing in Taiko. So many wrong examples.

if you have any questions about what I say u can ask here or just PM me.
1. But then the game will be basically accuracy-oriented instead of skill-oriented.
2. If you're talking about the score multiplier, no. As I've stated before, FL gives lesser raw-skilled players an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw-skilled players. If you're talking about the pp, I'm fine with that, but don't nerf it that much though.

As for HDHR, it actually worths more pp, as HR also amplifies the invisibility area of HD (yes, I think that way), making it as it is now. But then again, that's just my opinion.
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun
But you're an extra widescreen player, the area where you can actually see the notes is way higher than others players. Seeing only half a note IS NOT playable at all. As long as HDHR isn't fixed and playable for everyone, there is still a big issue with that mod.

About FLHD, yes we do have some legit players, but it's too easy to DS and the majority of the FLHD scores are DS. Do you prefer to advantage the non-legit plays just to reward the minority of legit plays ?
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
HRHD should give a small bonus to accuracy, but none to reading/pattern/whatever that factor may be called. Same for FL. DS is the obvious reason.
Or better yet, get peppy to fix HRHD; I really want to play that mod combination but my 4:3 setup makes it damn near impossible /o/
XK2238
2,067 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

Nashmun wrote:

But you're an extra widescreen player, the area where you can actually see the notes is way higher than others players. Seeing only half a note IS NOT playable at all. As long as HDHR isn't fixed and playable for everyone, there is still a big issue with that mod.

About FLHD, yes we do have some legit players, but it's too easy to DS and the majority of the FLHD scores are DS. Do you prefer to advantage the non-legit plays just to reward the minority of legit plays ?
well, I'm actually a 4:3 fullscreen player, but I like playing HR on that reso (and just a friendly reminder: utterly EVERYONE can adjust the reso like I did without having more than ONE monitor). Yeah, the "half a note" thing is really bugging, and people wouldn't even try to adjust their monitor's brightness/contrast/both for that. My (own) suggestion is to increase the visibility by a bit (not large enough to make Taiko scoreboards look like STD's), although we don't know if that will ever be implemented.

2nd line: I'd rather not, but I do have few things in mind:
1. Make osu! so that it can track the total number of plays for each song, even in offline/Autoplay? And more specifically, separate numbers of online, offline, and Auto plays? (mentioned Auto since some players memorize from the Autoplay (this guy, for example))

2. FL-specific: Set some kind of threshold of number of plays (like the above number 1) in each map, so that any number below that threshold can be assured as DS?
^ I do realize that it's nearly impossible, but once it is done right, voila. Of course, a formula must be present in order to achieve this one, although I haven't thought anyhow.

3. Make osu! so that it automatically ends/fails a play if it reaches an amount of X consecutive misses, especially if it's from the first note? Take X = 30 notes, for example. Note that this effectively applies only to Taiko since all the other game modes fail immediately when the HP's empty.

I think that's all I can say for now; got a bit exhausted from homework.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
Just to say , this guy play a lot of easy and normal converted map with FL
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Easy and Normal conversions are pretty damn irrelevant.
That's like saying FL is an easy mod in standard because you can sightread Easy diffs with it.
TKS
Former osu!taiko Champion: 2014
1,380 posts
Joined July 2011
TKS
osu!taiko compete for the "memorize skill"!
ahhh im so noob.... yes..


..yeah, this is wrong.
- Yuuka Niya -
15 posts
Joined September 2012
- Yuuka Niya -

TKSalt wrote:

osu!taiko compete for the "memorize skill"!
ahhh im so noob.... yes..


..yeah, this is wrong.
can't agree more XD

and I think to calculate the difficulty, note density and OD is enough..what do u think TKS?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Hm. Some of you used the term "unfair" in the last hours due to differences between players and their gameplay.
But if you ask me, the main gameplay is already(or if not, can be) determinated:

Keyboard: kddk
→ As I said before, Taiko is a drum game. And kddk is the authentic gameplay for this game. Not because TNT does so. Rather because the drum is designed in this way - the rim and the centre.

Screen: Widescreen
→ Some of you might disagree with me, but I say that the Widescreen is the main-option here. At this point I might be old-fashioned, but TNT is using this option even with a higher scroll range. In general, HR becomes easier readable and the mod HD+HR is up to a certian extend possible with WS*. Yes, the impact from HD 4:3 to WS is bigger than the one from HR, since the range you have to "memories" in HD becomes bigger while in HR you have more time to see the upcoming notes. But HD-Players can compensate this better than HR player from WS to 4:3.
Additional to this, I want to add what XK2238 said before: Those who can't play HR+HD on 4:3 can change to WS to be able to play it. Reasons like "they are not used to it" or something like that is rather up to the person and shouldn't be taken into account in such discussion.

FL+HD
If some of you really want to keep this mod, a possible solution would be to count HD+FL as HD play. I still say that this mod is too dangerous, but those of you who really like to play it can still do so and be marked as FL+HD player in the ranking. Just with the difference that your HD+FL points = HD points.

That's my opinion again. I see it from a technical way - what is the most beneficial one. Not what a single user wants to see, since this can lead easy to unfair decisions I think.


* Widescreen
DarkStoorM
451 posts
Joined October 2009
DarkStoorM
I'm not sure if it's the actual problem, but what about disabling resolution changing in a *.cfg file?

I know, an offtopic.
But let's take a look on osu!mania. Mods give no score multiplier, so simmilar thing should be with performance on Taiko.
[edit](I have no idea if Mods affect performance on osu!mania, sorry)
Like someone already mentioned: DT>HR>HD>FL or DT>HR=HD>FL.
I can't really argue with Hardrock vs Hidden and I have no idea how to explain this.
I just hope you guys will have a one and effective way to handle Convert vs Oni.
- Yuuka Niya -
15 posts
Joined September 2012
- Yuuka Niya -

OnosakiHito wrote:

Hm. Some of you used the term "unfair" in the last hours due to differences between players and their gameplay.
But if you ask me, the main gameplay is already(or if not, can be) determinated:

Keyboard: kddk
→ As I said before, Taiko is a drum game. And kddk is the authentic gameplay for this game. Not because TNT does so. Rather because the drum is designed in this way - the rim and the centre.

Screen: Widescreen
→ Some of you might disagree with me, but I say that the Widescreen is the main-option here. At this point I might be old-fashioned, but TNT is using this option even with a higher scroll range. In general, HR becomes easier readable and the mod HD+HR is up to a certian extend possible with WS*. Yes, the impact from HD 4:3 to WS is bigger than the one from HR, since the range you have to "memories" in HD becomes bigger while in HR you have more time to see the upcoming notes. But HD-Players can compensate this better than HR player from WS to 4:3.
Additional to this, I want to add what XK2238 said before: Those who can't play HR+HD on 4:3 can change to WS to be able to play it. Reasons like "they are not used to it" or something like that is rather up to the person and shouldn't be taken into account in such discussion.

FL+HD
If some of you really want to keep this mod, a possible solution would be to count HD+FL as HD play. I still say that this mod is too dangerous, but those of you who really like to play it can still do so and be marked as FL+HD player in the ranking. Just with the difference that your HD+FL points = HD points.

That's my opinion again. I see it from a technical way - what is the most beneficial one. Not what a single user wants to see, since this can lead easy to unfair decisions I think.


* Widescreen
Can't agree this more.If HD+FL=HD,how about HDHRFL and HDHR? maybe all of them can be same as HR?
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

- Yuuka Niya - wrote:

Can't agree this more.If HD+FL=HD,how about HDHRFL and HDHR? maybe all of them can be same as HR?
Ono was referring to the Doron mode for HDFL = HD. HRHD also works as Doron, so does HRHDFL.
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]
I am recently still reading the first page but I really want to put down this.

When it comes to pattern difficulty, it is sometimes subjective to your playing style i.e. full alternative, partial alternative, colour oriented, 4-finger or 2-finger, etc. Therefore it is difficult to tell what is a hard map if we don't decide which playing style we are encouraging first.


Example1: dk kd dk kd dk kd vs dk dk dk dk dk dk, the former is easier for a 4-finger player, while the latter is a much more easier one if you are a 2-finger player as you dont have to move your fingers frequently

Example2: A very high speed with less complicated patterns is easier than a lower speed but more complicated map for full alternative hands player, vice versa for colour oriented hand players. So which is more difficult？
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
^ p/2834015
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]

OnosakiHito wrote:

^ http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2834015
If you are meaning the "authentic" thing, I would like to clarify that all of the stated playing styles by me are capable with your model, they are all possible play styles with the orientation kddk
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

OnosakiHito wrote:

→ As I said before, Taiko is a drum game. And kddk is the authentic gameplay for this game. Not because TNT does so. Rather because the drum is designed in this way - the rim and the centre.
While this is true, it's a moot point since the default (and should I say main?) input type for a computer is a keyboard (and a mouse), and not a drum. While our taiko is based off TnT, it's not TnT.

For the purpose of discussion, we could say that we should be focusing on the default key setup to play with, and that is zxcv in a kddk setup though. That's a more valid argument in my opinion.

osu!standard has nothing in the difficulty formula in the patterns being played by different playstyles (mouse only, tablet + kb, lmb/x, etc), so I'd suggest to keep our taiko that way as well, meaning, it matters little if a pattern is easier or harder on a certain key setup.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Or that.
verto
307 posts
Joined October 2012
verto
I'm not really that experienced in taiko, so I'll just speak from my perspective, instead of trying to lay down some hard facts.

I read that you guys think HD<HR, but I think the better you get, the easier HD will become, because you sort of memorise the patterns with muscle memory, so you don't need to "think" about it (or at least that's what I noticed). I only recently started playing HD, but I still find HR easier than HD on a map like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45672 , even though I play on 1366x768.

Also I'm a ddkk player, though after seeing what kddk players consider hard, I found that it's similar to what I find hard. Like I think ddkkddkk-- patterns are a breeze, while triplets (especially kat triplets) in a stream is really hard or annoying.
- Yuuka Niya -
15 posts
Joined September 2012
- Yuuka Niya -

lolcubes wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

→ As I said before, Taiko is a drum game. And kddk is the authentic gameplay for this game. Not because TNT does so. Rather because the drum is designed in this way - the rim and the centre.
While this is true, it's a moot point since the default (and should I say main?) input type for a computer is a keyboard (and a mouse), and not a drum. While our taiko is based off TnT, it's not TnT.

For the purpose of discussion, we could say that we should be focusing on the default key setup to play with, and that is zxcv in a kddk setup though. That's a more valid argument in my opinion.

osu!standard has nothing in the difficulty formula in the patterns being played by different playstyles (mouse only, tablet + kb, lmb/x, etc), so I'd suggest to keep our taiko that way as well, meaning, it matters little if a pattern is easier or harder on a certain key setup.
oh..though I'm kddk ,there are really many ddkk players. So some discussion above means nothing I think.

And to Ono: if HDHR and HDFL really become Doron mode, it will be a great help to taiko world of course.
Quichey
88 posts
Joined August 2012
Quichey
Does a certain playstyle confer advantages to playing the game? This is the question we're asking.

I said before that we could do a calibration type measurement before measuring any sort of pp, but I realize now that won't work for this reason. How can we compare the metric between two different playstyles?

We should purely focus on the technical aspects of the game, not the mechanical.
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]

OnosakiHito wrote:

Or that.
Naah, the key setups of the playstyles that I've stated are the same, man
XK2238
2,067 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238
Or at least make FL give 1.06x only (meaning FL + HD/HR = DT, FL + HDHR/DT = HDT/DTHR)... Please, people won't even bother trying to HDFL if it's only going to be exactly the same as HD >.> same applies with +HR.
Think of it as a middle road.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
darkmiz
i agree that HD+HR is impossible to read, every note looks like 3~4 note cluster.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito

_verto_ wrote:

SPOILER
I'm not really that experienced in taiko, so I'll just speak from my perspective, instead of trying to lay down some hard facts.

I read that you guys think HD<HR, but I think the better you get, the easier HD will become, because you sort of memorise the patterns with muscle memory, so you don't need to "think" about it (or at least that's what I noticed). I only recently started playing HD, but I still find HR easier than HD on a map like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45672 , even though I play on 1366x768.

Also I'm a ddkk player, though after seeing what kddk players consider hard, I found that it's similar to what I find hard. Like I think ddkkddkk-- patterns are a breeze, while triplets (especially kat triplets) in a stream is really hard or annoying.
- Most people said so far HD=HR, so it's cool.
- Both play styles have similarity, but kddk should be considered due to previous said reasons.

Quiesce wrote:

We should purely focus on the technical aspects of the game, not the mechanical.
Without the mechanical way it is hard to consider what is hard/easy. How else do you want to estimate patterns? By looking at them?

XK2238 wrote:

SPOILER
Or at least make FL give 1.06x only (meaning FL + HD/HR = DT, FL + HDHR/DT = HDT/DTHR)... Please, people won't even bother trying to HDFL if it's only going to be exactly the same as HD >.> same applies with +HR.
Think of it as a middle road.
Well, then we do not need the mod if people think in this way. Sounds hard, but I see no point in supporting a "dangerous mod" because people want to gain just points and ranks with it.

darkmiz wrote:

i agree that HD+HR is impossible to read, every note looks like 3~4 note cluster.
We talked about this before. It is possible up to a certain extend. Please read the previous pages.
- Yuuka Niya -
15 posts
Joined September 2012
- Yuuka Niya -

XK2238 wrote:

Or at least make FL give 1.06x only (meaning FL + HD/HR = DT, FL + HDHR/DT = HDT/DTHR)... Please, people won't even bother trying to HDFL if it's only going to be exactly the same as HD >.> same applies with +HR.
Think of it as a middle road.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with u.
If FL =1.06x then both in pp and in score HDHRFL is more than DT only , that can't be accepted I think.
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
You guys should drop FL, honestly whatever happens there's nothing you can do to counter the multiscreen players without penalizing true memory players.
XK2238
2,067 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

_Gezo_ wrote:

You guys should drop FL, honestly whatever happens there's nothing you can do to counter the multiscreen players without penalizing true memory players.
the sad truth has been spoken...
- Yuuka Niya -
15 posts
Joined September 2012
- Yuuka Niya -

_Gezo_ wrote:

You guys should drop FL, honestly whatever happens there's nothing you can do to counter the multiscreen players without penalizing true memory players.
In fact you have to agree that multiscreen players is far more than true memory players when HDFL or HDHRFL.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Let's keep the FL topic aside for now.
If you still have anything to say about this topic, read the whole thread again to ensure you do not repeat someone else again, starting from here:
p/2829947
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Please keep the topic on track. We do not discuss how "stupid FL is" here, too. Please try to contribute to the ppv2 development only.
Thank you
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]
I would like to avoid the situation that " I could perform more pp in this map, but those performances are of less score than my best score with lower pp， so I couldnt improve my pp by this map"
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed

Quiesce wrote:

Does a certain playstyle confer advantages to playing the game? This is the question we're asking.
In my opinion yes, if you are using the kddk set-up and playing full alt you can play very easily every 1/2 on 300bpm maps and if the map don't have lots of 1/4 it's very simple. But if you singletap everything it'll become way harder/ impossible.

Since this playstyle is the most "optimal" the difficulty should be calculated with the playstyle that makes the game easier imo.
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace

TimmyAkmed wrote:

Quiesce wrote:

Does a certain playstyle confer advantages to playing the game? This is the question we're asking.
In my opinion yes, if you are using the kddk set-up and playing full alt you can play very easily every 1/2 on 300bpm maps and if the map don't have lots of 1/4 it's very simple. But if you singletap everything it'll become way harder/ impossible.

Since this playstyle is the most "optimal" the difficulty should be calculated with the playstyle that makes the game easier imo.
i'd say full alt players usually have lower accuracy but orukaa would strike me down


i'm late to the party but i think rankings would be boring without converted maps since tvsize hr SSx3000
i've generally been avoiding ranked taiko maps for the last couple months because 95% of them just aren't fun

i could understand converted being worth less pp than taiko due to ranking guidelines and things but you can't ignore the fact that some converted maps take just as much if not more skill* to play
*there is no clear definition of skill, i personally see it as acc + reading/playing patterns (especially high speed)

these 2 maps took hours worth of tries and i consider them to be some of my best scores
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=272454&m=1
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=127846&m=1

or take this map, 1 try SS that i wouldn't even blink at if there weren't so few others
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/287463
this should not be worth more than the above maps just because it's specifically for taiko
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
That's because most of the ranked maps are OD5. Longer maps with OD6 and OD7 aren't really that easy to SS. :p

Oh look my map is up there. But that's actually not that easy to SS with HR ;_;
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace
maybe unpopular opinion but i feel like if SS is possible then OD is too low kevin doesn't count or map is too easy. od5 is always too low, od6 is fine if it's a hard map. od7+ for easier maps

these 2 are things i'd like to see more of for taiko maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/284037 hard
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/72460 od8
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
There is nothing wrong in map being "too easy", though. I do agree it shouldn't be valued as much obviously.

Let's see how this rating thing comes up. A proper map difficulty algorithm can really help out here.
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace
too easy is bad if it's also boring
doesn't have to be both!

i am super curious about how maps are valued right now and what they'll be like later. SS is way too good right now and i feel like #1 was too good before. if you have a really good score on a map and someone gets a better one, old score is still good even if it's not the best

i'd also like to see global rankings to see how wrong things are right now
-crn- rank 76???????????
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Well, currently, the system isn't really good, but that's why this thread is here. :p

I'm #481 which makes no sense, since after I changed my playstyle I can't even FC your generic Onis haha.
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
i was #2k2, then after doing some insanes/hards on converted maps, i started climbing back to >6k and now >10k, pretty sure this is not working as intended and this is not the finally state of pp
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
actually it is not working yet, and this is the reason we are talking here
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Collapsed because incorrect
So I read the whole thread... and this patterns stuff seems to be going back and forth.

I should probably mention how bad I am first, so take my post as a long-winded opinion. Shoot me down if you must, but I'm interested in taiko nonetheless..

The ranking system needs to rank all players. I'm practically a newbie, despite playing occasionally in the past, only playing muzu's and trying to delve into oni's occasionally, but it's hard. The reason I can't play those oni's is because of the non-repetitive patterns which are very randomised long streams or randomised short patterns with gaps. (Random = non-repetitive) These are just too hard... But when a pattern repeats, no matter where, even in a long stream or with a gap, it is very easy to read and play, even with hand changes. It just needs to repeat only once, and reading is far easier.

Ebawer's example of how you break up reading patterns is correct... I'm noob and already do it. I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.

Instead of determining which patterns are easier, we should give all patterns a static difficulty based only on their length, up to 5 or 6 notes (including streams)... and rather than rank their difficulty, instead create an algorithm for identifying these patterns (and lengths) and only weight the randomness of the patterns used, i.e. repetition vs non-repetition. You could get more into the specifics of breaking-up the easy ddddkkkk patterns or dkdkdkdkdk, but that's not hard to do.

I think including 62 patterns into some difficulty hierarchy algorithm is going to be far too much work to balance correctly between play styles. The randomness between these patterns is the only thing you can work with. Pattern groups with a random/non-repetitive nature that go on for longer would be worth more "complexity" score. It should also carefully consider odd and even pattern groups though, like having 1 pattern repeated in between a different pattern every time.

This would also solve your auto-convert problem... I think, because they're objectively broken. The hard ones would stay hard, and the easy ones with 1/8 spam would be worth nothing. Ignore rolls and spinners too from calculation... I don't think those have anything to do with skill... just mashing speed.

I'm wearing my bulls-eye T-shirt today.
Last edited by RaneFire , edited 1 time in total.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
SPOILER

RaneFire wrote:

So I read the whole thread... and this patterns stuff seems to be going back and forth.

I should probably mention how bad I am first, so take my post as a long-winded opinion. Shoot me down if you must, but I'm interested in taiko nonetheless..

The ranking system needs to rank all players. I'm practically a newbie, despite playing occasionally in the past, only playing muzu's and trying to delve into oni's occasionally, but it's hard. The reason I can't play those oni's is because of the non-repetitive patterns which are very randomised long streams or randomised short patterns with gaps. (Random = non-repetitive) These are just too hard... But when a pattern repeats, no matter where, even in a long stream or with a gap, it is very easy to read and play, even with hand changes. It just needs to repeat only once, and reading is far easier.

Ebawer's example of how you break up reading patterns is correct... I'm noob and already do it. I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.

Instead of determining which patterns are easier, we should give all patterns a static difficulty based only on their length, up to 5 or 6 notes (including streams)... and rather than rank their difficulty, instead create an algorithm for identifying these patterns (and lengths) and only weight the randomness of the patterns used, i.e. repetition vs non-repetition. You could get more into the specifics of breaking-up the easy ddddkkkk patterns or dkdkdkdkdk, but that's not hard to do.

I think including 62 patterns into some difficulty hierarchy algorithm is going to be far too much work to balance correctly between play styles. The randomness between these patterns is the only thing you can work with. Pattern groups with a random/non-repetitive nature that go on for longer would be worth more "complexity" score. It should also carefully consider odd and even pattern groups though, like having 1 pattern repeated in between a different pattern every time.

This would also solve your auto-convert problem... I think, because they're objectively broken. The hard ones would stay hard, and the easy ones with 1/8 spam would be worth nothing. Ignore rolls and spinners too from calculation... I don't think those have anything to do with skill... just mashing speed.

I'm wearing my bulls-eye T-shirt today.

Totally disagree sorry.

First don't call a patten random, no patten is random only if you map in random mood and make it shit. Every patten have its meaning and effect in the map. If the map continue to repeat a patten it looks shit already. And I assume mapper talking in here are not mapping shit.
 If you really think a patten is random you should play more and you will not think in that way.

Second in a player's angle, I actually don't know how many times the patten(e.g ddk) have appeared. I play when I see the patten, no matter if that patten appear before. The most extreme case is this.

And on your logic, you think that the program should only check how many times a patten appeared? Then the example map given is really easy right? Please explain on your point on this.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

RaneFire wrote:

I think other people's examples of longer patterns involving hand changes is subjectively wrong, although their examples are correct. However this is not due to hand-changes, but due to reading complexity, determining when the pattern changes, requiring a hand-switch. You don't read 12 notes at once, you read them in pieces.
Nope, this is not true.
Patterns that don't require leading hand switches are automatically more regular and repetitive. And I don't read streams as a single unit either, I do break them up into parts (albeit using a different "algorithm" than EBAWER); when playing long Firce-style deathstreams I hardly ever miss because I misread, I miss because I mechanically mess up a leading hand switch.
I'd also like to repeat that I don't think every stream with hand switches is extremely hard; I already mentioned before that something like kddkddkddkddkddkddkddkddk is simple due to repetition. It's the irregularity of pattern / hand switches that makes a stream truly hard.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
LunaticP

LunaticP wrote:

Totally disagree sorry.

First don't call a patten random, no patten is random only if you map in random mood and make it shit. Every patten have its meaning and effect in the map. If the map continue to repeat a patten it looks shit already. And I assume mapper talking in here are not mapping shit.
 If you really think a patten is random you should play more and you will not think in that way.

Second in a player's angle, I actually don't know how many times the patten(e.g ddk) have appeared. I play when I see the patten, no matter if that patten appear before. The most extreme case is this.

And on your logic, you think that the program should only check how many times a patten appeared? Then the example map given is really easy right? Please explain on your point on this.
Thanks. I guess I do need to play more taiko to recognise the mapped rhythm better.

Anyway, for the example:

Is not the hardest part executing those patterns because of the speed? It's hard to sync two hands that fast for many people, because that skill is mental, so if the map were 180bpm, would you call it easy then? (Not saying I can play it though)

Also my point was on the adjacent repetitive nature of patterns because of group reading, like in the start. Sure the "ddk" pattern appears a lot, but the sections where it is divided between 1/2 notes makes it harder doesn't it, because the repetition is broken? Or are you saying it's the other way around?

Luna

Luna wrote:

Nope, this is not true.
Patterns that don't require leading hand switches are automatically more regular and repetitive. And I don't read streams as a single unit either, I do break them up into parts (albeit using a different "algorithm" than EBAWER); when playing long Firce-style deathstreams I hardly ever miss because I misread, I miss because I mechanically mess up a leading hand switch.
I'd also like to repeat that I don't think every stream with hand switches is extremely hard; I already mentioned before that something like kddkddkddkddkddkddkddkddk is simple due to repetition. It's the irregularity of pattern / hand switches that makes a stream truly hard.
Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it. "Mechanical" may just be the word I was looking for. In osu!std I have this problem, and there's only notes and sliders there... much easier by comparison, but there are still problems because of "mechanical" issues with odd/even numbers of notes.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

RaneFire wrote:

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Luna wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

IMO I treat the idea of reading and execution as one and the same. If you can't do it consistently, you still have trouble reading it.
By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams
You know what I mean. The definition of the word was the problem. Stop being stupid about this just because I'm not a pro taiko'er. It's a game, just because I'm not good at it does not mean I'm stupid.

It was also a clarification that did not embody the message I wanted you to read.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything, I just disagree on that point.
There are many things that I can read perfectly fine, but can't do mechanically. That's just how it is.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

LunaticP wrote:

Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

Not counting speed limits. Also note that this only has to do with complexity score, nothing else. If you know osu!tp, you'll know std has aim/speed/acc. In Taiko, for example, it would be complexity/speed/acc. If you fill the whole map with ddk, the complexity may be lower, but the speed score will be higher because of density.

I'd like your explanation though, because throwing examples around just clutters the thread. Or at least shoot a hole in my logic that I can see, and let's be done with it.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...
ddk ddk d k ddk ddk... would probably feel awkward with a 4/4 signature
AnFace
189 posts
Joined January 2010
AnFace

Luna wrote:

Actually, for me ddk d k ddk d k ddk... is the easiest out of those patterns. Can't really explain why though, it just flows better than ddk ddk ddk ddk...
yea this
i think just because the single notes are easier to watch timing on
or 5 note pattern repeating instead of 3
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

LunaticP wrote:

Just answer this , which one you think is easier?

1. ddk ddk ddk ddk ddk

2. ddk d k ddk d k ddk

3. ddk ddk d k ddk ddk
#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

RaneFire wrote:

Yes, I'm trying to pinpoint that irregularity with an algorithm. You make a good point, but it could also be a playstyle difference, and that's where I was trying to stem my argument from... because no one wants to agree. There's arguably more main-hand players though and alternaters have an easier time with hand-switches. Oh well... I tried.
Don't feel offended, however you still can't grasp the true difficulty of oni maps (and higher level oni maps) just yet. :)
The thing is, seeing is one thing, hitting what you see is another. Mechanics used to hit certain things, handswitches especially are really complicated to execute. It looks simple, but it's a really pain in the ass thing to do. People who fully alternate for a long time and are really good at it (like EBAWER) don't feel this mechanic problem as much because it's just natural thing to do, but there are not many people on that level.
Let me put it this way, it's not hard after an insane amount of practice, however that just says how hard it actually is, by seeing how much practice you need with it.

Even on low bpm maps, when I see something like [dddkkkd] at 1/6 inside or at the end of a stream, or even isolated, I still can't hit it. It's really complicated to adjust your rhythm and to perform a handswitch at the same time, at my level. Will take a lot of practice for me to perform it well.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Yeah, I figured my inability to read oni's properly would probably be a flaw. So there's more going on than meets the eye. It's gonna be hard to create system around the subjectivity of each pattern though. Thanks for the replies, some responses are always better than none.

lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?

I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

RaneFire wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.
I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?
I swapped to full alternate because I was unable to do streams longer than 9~ notes (well, monocolors or streams which had 2 same colors if you divide a stream on 2x2x2x2 etc were actually fine) or even most simple chains on bpm higher than 150 (kdddkdddkdddkdddkdddk etc) because my playstyle was to cheese every pattern combination in a way I find it easier to play, so every 3~5 note (except for dkkkd, kkkdd and dkdkk, those were really impossible) was really easy to perform for me in any situation, but put them inside a stream and I'm done for.
Cheesing patterns required a certain way to play them, and streams are just ongoing notes, you can't really "think" on which pattern you have to play while actually playing it, you need some buffer time (I did at least). With training you can get around it I guess, but because of my 2nd problem (chaining simple patterns in a stream) I chose to swap, because the way I learned to play kdd really destroyed my ability to chain kdddkdddkdddk, making my hands entangle and spend insane amounts of strength just to do it badly. You can see it in some of my vids I posted how I cheese the patterns. :p

Now with full alternate, I just hit them naturally and when I see an even amount of dons, I know the next kat is a hand switch.

RaneFire wrote:

I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.
Yeah, I think Orukaa is an inspiration to everyone. :p

While I can still use my old style to play some maps really nicely, I choose not to because full alt is infinitely more fun to me.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....

Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style

Select the one you think the hardest

1. ddk k k ddk k k

2. ddk d d ddk d d

3. ddk d k ddk d k

4. ddk k d ddk k d

This result will be put into my program as well
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
#3 and #4, but they are the same just like #1 and #2
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
#4 is the hardest for me, then #2, then #3, #1 is the easiest
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
I have a reason to ask this....

This is to show not only a stream, but the notes after the stream actually make the map looks different. We should not only focus on stream only

Anyway please answer that, because I really want to know the main trend of playing styles
Nashmun
1,593 posts
Joined November 2008
Nashmun
For me it's the same. Maybe #2 would be harder at very high bpm
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
4->1->2->3 for me, but thats cause i find kat heavy patterns harder than don heavy ones.
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123

Luna wrote:

By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams
ofc you can't
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?

not functional, play for fun!
WemadeFOX-solo
25 posts
Joined May 2013
WemadeFOX-solo
yeah, thats why i keep playing normals and hards, because they are fun :>
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]

LunaticP wrote:

Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....

Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style

Select the one you think the hardest

1. ddk k k ddk k k

2. ddk d d ddk d d

3. ddk d k ddk d k

4. ddk k d ddk k d

This result will be put into my program as well
2>1=4>3
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed
I agree with the discussion about "HD = HR" in term of difficulty but if it means that "DT+HD = DT+HR"
That sounds not correct to me because as said earlier HR is harder on High BPM and HD harder on Slow BPM most of time.
When you add DT the BPM is almost everytime more than 200 and it makes DT+HR way harder than DT+HD.
imo (and sorry if this has been already said) DTHR should be way more rewarding than DTHD.

Anyway, what I say would have no sense if you already works on HR high bpm more rewarding than HD high bpm...
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
Not telling that 95% of taiko maps have their OD >=5, which in DTHR gives you 10 at least, up to 12.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
I've been reading through this whole thread and I find myself agreeing with OnosakiHito more than anyone else.

Put to put it simple from me:

BPM, the higher the BPM is, the harder it usually gets.
Patterns, if there is more pattern variety in a single stream the harder it is (complexity)
OD, as it requires more accuracy the higher it is.
HP shouldn't be counted too much, but higher HP drain makes you lose more and gain less HP per note.
Mods. DT highest. HR and HD same. FL disabled due to difficulties with DS players and cheaters.
I wouldn't want to disable HDHR since I find it very playable on BPMs lower than
Standard converts should also be disabled since they're not made to be played on Taiko mode.
No, I'm not saying that they can't be hard, I've played a handful of difficult converts that were fun too, but it doesn't change the fact they were made for Standard, not Taiko. If you think disabling it is too drastic, then at least they should count as FAR less than Taiko specifics.

I put my thoughts into this very lazily so please yell at me if you want me to explain something more or you disagree with me.
Pretty sure all these points have been stated so dont mind me \o/
BrokenArrow
2,236 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
I still haven't seen a reasonable argument on why standard converted difficulties should not be weighted equally under the same circumstances as taiko specific difficulties should.
"They are not meant to be played in taiko mode" is just stupid. Might as well remove rankings on converted maps completely then. If they are so bad that they shouldn't get taken into account for the pp ranking what is the point in them existing? Besides, those opinions are always based on subjectivity, which shouldn't influence the ranking at all.
For example, if a converted map basically just goes d d k d d d k [...] just treat it the same way you would treat a taiko specific map going like that (even though that's unlikely to happen but you get the point) instead of straight up removing them entirely from the ranking.

Sorry if I repeated anything what has already been said, I haven't followed this thread at all.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
There are so many Normal diffs which get converted into something so insanely dumb that I don't even want to start describing how they look. And yes they look harder than insanes, the only easier things are OD and HP.

"Not meant to be played in taiko", how is that not reasonable?
As long as standard converts don't meet the ranking criteria (and never will), I vote against them being counted towards pp. While some may convert well, most of them don't. Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
I think you should be careful if you use rankable as the judging point. Some taiko maps actually step between rank and unrank. And if someone find a map which is converted but looks rankable this may lead to more argument.

In technical way i need to study on how a map is converted to taiko and see a program can calculate that.. ..
capes-
30 posts
Joined December 2012
capes-

lolcubes wrote:

Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.
Except we're trying to judge map difficulty and player skill, not rank maps or judge map quality. If a guy gets a good score on a ridiculously stupid and difficult ranked map, it should count for skill, as long as it's already ranked. Getting a good score on a difficult map of bad quality is still getting a good score on a difficult map.
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
What cubes is getting at is that many of those maps under taiko ranking criteria wouldn't even have charts at all if they had gone for ranking as taiko maps. Why should we consider scores for maps that have unrankable things in them at all for a mode that we already have hundreds upon hundreds of ranked taiko specific maps that all meet ranking criteria?

Converted maps had their place ages ago when there were very few ranked low difficulty maps for taiko. They filled the LARGE gap between starting taiko fresh, and playing Oni difficulty maps (due to taiko specific mapsets not being rankable back then and people only making Oni guest difficulties)... but now that we have those mapsets, they really don't serve a purpose anymore. While I don't think we should remove the rankings from these maps, we definitely don't need to consider them for our ranking system.
capes-
30 posts
Joined December 2012
capes-
Well, here's my point, Tasha. A lot of this thread is being wasted on the argument on whether or not converts should count or not. Let's wait until a system is actually made, THEN we can decide on what to do with converts. For now, the thread should just be about coming up with a system to work with. Like how much should slider velocity affect difficulty or how much certain bpm would affect difficulty and whatnot.
Jikson[m9]
177 posts
Joined March 2012
Jikson[m9]
If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.
MeeHawk
3 posts
Joined September 2013
MeeHawk
well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.
1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.

2.
This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.

3.
I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin

MeeHawk wrote:

This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.
Just because HR raises OD doesn't mean you'd need less rhythmic accuracy or playing HD.
In fact, by making the scrolling speed (or SV in osu terms) faster, it affects your accuracy, usually it makes you play more accurately rather than when you play with low scrolling speed. It might be a bad comparison, but have you ever noticed how usually beatmania IIDX players play with high Hi-Speed (scrolling speed) and a lot of people use curtains as well? It's because reaction time kicks in when you play with faster scrolling and less notes on-screen, often making you more accurate. So HR should stay the same as HD as the difficulty is very equal.
You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.

MeeHawk wrote:

I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.
In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!

Jikson[m9] wrote:

If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.
Agreed. The old pp system was very broken because you could rocket up the ranking list by getting some decent scores on low difficulty converts, so this discussion is much needed if we want a new and working ranking/pp system.
MeeHawk
3 posts
Joined September 2013
MeeHawk
You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.
It's not the same thing.. There's a exact time to hit the notes and you can see it clearly with super high OD.. Try to 100% FC this taiko map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11628 with HR.. That map is easy, but you need to press it at the exact time the note reachs the middle of the hit window.. And as you can see in the ladder of the map, HR really makes a difference when compared to HD. The rythim is the same, but the accuracy is not. So yes, raising OD means something..

In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!
Yes you are right, i didn't explain it well.. I meant that lots of people enjoy playing converted maps, because there are much good ones and gaining pp from playing something you like it is something good imo, even if it's just a bit of pp. And why mapping it myself would be an easy fix? LOL i would spend days and days just to map one song and some weeks/months or even more to get it aproved, and also there are people who works and do stuff on their life, no way it would be an easy fix.
roufou
995 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou

MeeHawk wrote:

1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.
the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more


I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

edit: also to clarifiy I'd give a score more pp the more impressive it is rather than judging by how much skill the score might've taken, I don't feel like the latter is even possible
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
roufou
995 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou

TimmyAkmed wrote:

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
maps like mad machine were never a problem in the old system so I don't see why they have to be now
TimmyAkmed
152 posts
Joined July 2012
TimmyAkmed
The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
MeeHawk
3 posts
Joined September 2013
MeeHawk
I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.
Oh good point.. now that i'm thinking on it, it would be plausible to say that. *Thumbs up*
Well, maybe Tom can figure out a good way to do this.. But for now I agree with you.

the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more
IT IS impressive, but FL wasn't made to be competitive I think, it is just to show you can memorize stuff :D
NoYzE
97 posts
Joined October 2013
NoYzE
Ever thought about diminishing returns?
It's not hard to code such an algorithm for experienced coders i think.
However, it would really help to take away the fear, that converted maps could count too much.

Let's say you have a stream of 20 or 30 dons in a converted map above 200 bpm, which is still hard but not seen as "skilled" for taiko as you state.
Now the diminishing returns comes into effect:

The first don will give 100% of points (invisible ones, since it shouldn't affect the way of the scoring).
2nd: 50%
3rd: 25%
4th: 12.50%
5th: 6.25%
...
and so on.
If there is a Kat, it will give 100% points again and reset the multiplier for the next don to 100% again also.

So if there is a map with very little variation and much spamming, it would only give a little amount of points compared to taiko specific maps with much variation.

You could also let the system detect repetitive patterns and give less points for every same pattern as the previous.
This way "dkdkdkdkdkdkdkdkdk" wouldn't give 100% all the time because it is repetitive.

So that is why i said, if you have a good algorithm, you really don't need to fear, that converted maps could count too much, because if they'd do, the algorithm would be wrong.

Greetings,
NoYzE
EBAWER123
151 posts
Joined August 2010
EBAWER123
I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
The issue in my opinion is that a huge amount of standard conversions is pretty easy for the most part and then has a few stupid long 1/8 streams. Even if your pattern and accuracy skills are mediocre, you'd be able to farm lots of pp by getting ridiculous speed values if you can just mash fast enough.
For example, take Kanburisa. The patterns are super simple, but that 400 BPM deathstream lasts forever. A few people can mash fast enough to FC that, but does it mean they could play a regular 270 BPM map? No, absolutely not. Some of them can (Orukaa for example), but the mashing speed nesseccary for Kanburisa and similar maps does not automatically transfer into "real" skill.
If the calculation method for the speed value is even remotely similar to how it is in standard, converted maps will be imbalanced. I don't think they should be completely ignored in pp calculations, but definitely weighted less heavily.
NoYzE
97 posts
Joined October 2013
NoYzE
I'm glad my solution to this is ignored :)
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Your solution doesn't really work since long monocolor streams are actually surprisingly hard to play properly.
This does not apply to mashing 1/8 though
Sy[K]es
63 posts
Joined July 2010
Sy[K]es

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.
Agreed.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.
Oh god you used both the words "troll" and "hater"......
Please. It's not even that we're trying to make converts look bad, it's a matter of opinion, and most of us think that 99% of the converts are pretty shit.
I never said there weren't good converts. But especially when we have this many ranked taiko map sets, I don't see the need of having converts give pp, I think we should still let them have scoreboards.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.
We're not blindly repeating the same things, we're even giving explanations on why we have these opinions. It feels like you're not reading all of it :/
We have suggested fixes, we have explained why we have our opinions, and they're all very reasonable, I don't see how they're not.
Quichey
88 posts
Joined August 2012
Quichey
Converted maps should be weighted fully. It's not enough to say that converted maps are terribly easy/badly mapped, because there are songs that are converted extremely well. If we do start to rank on note density, patterns, etc. (all the suggestions in this thread), it'll be enough to allow converts a fair chance in Taiko.
I have yet to find a compelling argument in this thread.
LunaticP
148 posts
Joined May 2013
LunaticP
The question is do you count converted map as a taiko map. Theoretically whatever map, for it can be played in taiko mode it is a taiko map. However the gap between converted map and a taiko specific map is really large. To the extent that some people don't want to count it as a taiko map. You may find some map converted but still play well, but are they the majority? As a mapper, converted should not count. Very simple, if converted will also count then what is the use of mapping specific. I map hard on the map and now you said it weight the same as converted? But, as a player,converted map must count. First ,no matter what map i played, i still need to have good still so as to get good score and rank. Why i play an insane with full load of 1/8 and someone play a simple muzu and he get higher rank?

Which side you stand?

How to get a balance?

Try to explain and answer your view
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
NoYzE
97 posts
Joined October 2013
NoYzE
I must admit that i changed my mind, after playing a lot of specific maps and becoming a lot better over the past weeks.

While you have common patterns in specific maps you can learn and improve to read and play them more accurate and faster, you can't really learn patterns in converted maps, because there are no :P
Also, converted maps are often bad for alternating because of "sudden" big dons and kats, leading to bad habits for new players.

So i agree now that we should encourage the use of specific maps over converted maps.
But having "dead" maps without any ranking wouldn't be osu either.
So we should give them some influence but weight them less than specific maps.

edit: I started playing converted at the beginning only because there are really few ranked beginner maps in my opinion and the difficulty is very hard and fast rising for new players even on futsuu (only here in osu, not in TnT).
So if you want specific maps to become more popular among all groups of players including new players, we should take a closer look on advanced beginner maps connecting beginner maps to the advanced ones, and also take a look on the taiko map-packs, since it's very difficult to find all the taiko specific beginner maps that are not in the 2 packs.
Last edited by NoYzE , edited 1 time in total.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

TimmyAkmed wrote:

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.
If players made bad scores on such maps, even if the maps are insanely hard they still would barely give pp. Take a look at tag4-maps in standard - they give pretty much nothing because nobody can play them, despite them being rated highest in difficulty by far.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

_Gezo_ wrote:

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.
I feel obligated to link this map too: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/164977&m=0 - [Allegro] diff.
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95895&m=1 Despite only being a don map, finishers at the beginning and end of streams are just god damn awful.

I already said all I wanted to say though, just contributing with really bad conversion examples. This used to be in my top performance for ages as well.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
Tasha what is your address I want to ship one million gold medals your way.

PS: Dont give me your address, but you still deserve that victory fanfare from Final Fantasy at least!

You basically just said everything I wasn't able to word well.
Sy[K]es
63 posts
Joined July 2010
Sy[K]es
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
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