lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

RaneFire wrote:

lolcubes wrote:

#2 for me. For my old really weird playstyle #1 would be easiest but not on really high bpm. Now it's #2 regardless of the bpm, unless I am not really able to do that bpm in general.

I'd be interested to know what, or why, you changed. Was there something "wrong" with your previous style? Is there a superior playstyle overall?

RaneFire wrote:

I do play full-alternating in Taiko, so maybe this takes a little longer to get into oni's, but full-alternating always felt more natural to play. Watching some of Orukaa's DT plays was even more of an inspiration to go for it since he was so fast and accurate. I was pretty much looking for an excuse to play it and he gave me one.

Luna wrote:

By that logic I can't read 400 BPM monocolor streams

WemadeFOX-solo wrote:

So i keep losing ranking by playing normals and fcing it with 99~100%, is this part of the new pp system which try to promote to play harder beatmaps or it wont be part of the new pp system and is just being not functional?

LunaticP wrote:

Orukaa is not a human at all,no need to kill your hand because of this....

Now the true question come,and this may brings problem because of two common playing style

Select the one you think the hardest

1. ddk k k ddk k k

2. ddk d d ddk d d

3. ddk d k ddk d k

4. ddk k d ddk k d

This result will be put into my program as well

lolcubes wrote:

Imagine if any retarded taiko specific maps are allowed to get ranked. It's kinda the same.

well, some people actually have fun through FL. It gives players with lesser raw skill (considering legit ones in this case) an opportunity to compete evenly with higher raw skill, non-FL players (although memorization itself is already a skill imo; only some people can actually do it in fewer tries than anyone else/do hardcore, non-repetitive stuffs. Take baka_baka_Koishi, for example. Regardless, it's not really raw, but still). Although I haven't tried it at all, I think it's NOT impossible to actually train your reflexes with FL, but then again it's much more tedious to train than with other mods, thus making people not go through it. Just my opinion.

MeeHawk wrote:

This game is a rythim game ( meaning of course that you need to play in the right rythim), so accuracy should count way more than other mods, meaning that DT and HR should be more rewarded since it raises OD.Takes skill to play HD too, meaning you can follow the rythim, but anyway HR>HD. By the way, HR&HD IS playable.

MeeHawk wrote:

I think converted maps SHOULD count as well, because there are songs you like, and there's not a taiko mode on it. But the converted ones shouldn't be weighted as much as taiko maps, UNLESS Tom94 comes up with a nice system.

Jikson[m9] wrote:

If you remember there are a lot of converted easy's performance spamming the best performances in the previous pp system, and everyone could tell that those were not really "good" performance when compared with those which are performed with Oni maps. I do think it is essential to discuss whether should we count in converted map performances or not to.

You can still try and hit the notes by looking at when the notes hit the circle with HR (bad playing choice). With HD you can't as the notes vanish, so you'd need equally as much rhythmic accuracy with both mods, in my opinion.

In my honest opinion that's a rather weak argument. There is an easy fix to it: Map it yourself.
Or even better, if you find a pending taiko set for said song, help it get ranked by modding it!

MeeHawk wrote:

1.
I agree with XK2238 about FL stuff. It is possible to train your reflexes to play FL, i got better and better playing with it, BUT it is only readable at low bpm taiko maps and low SV/BPM converted ones. Also depends on the ammount of notes in the map, since the visibility area gets smaller when you reach 100 and 200 combo. Otherwise FLit is useless on taiko maps and imo should not count on them, cause memorization is not a competitive type of skill.. ANY player can memorize a map, it just depends on the ammount of attempts each one takes to do it. But there are players who can memorize easier than others and can't play hard patterns with good accuraccy or can't read high BPM on taiko maps.

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

TimmyAkmed wrote:

agu wrote:

I'm also personally for standard converts as not counting them feels an awful lot like saying they don't require skill

I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.

I'm also against converted maps being counted in the ranking even if I play them a lot, there are much of them that are a challenge to play without having a really stupid conversion like the Dragonforce maps. But even if the system is perfectly accurate for taiko diff, maps like this : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33052 would count way too much and would break the skill thing that I think we are searching in the new ranking.
If the ranking is meant to tell who are the best players of taiko, converted maps have no sense to be present if only some of them are "good" imo.

the fact that you memorize a map doesn't make it unimpressive (though peppy seems to think so now anyways)
also up to 150 to 160 bpm is entirely plausible to sightread at 200 combo depending on the density, perhaps even more

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater. If a convert has 220 BPM 1/8 stream of 30 notes it is not different from a taiko-specific map with the same stream. Do you think a taiko map just magically becomes harder or what? Or OD 8 on a convert suddenly becomes easier than an OD 5 Taiko map? The only differences are patterns, note density and SV which on some of the converts is quite fast and some converts have a higher density than a taiko map. You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already. Maybe we should actually discuss sonething more relevant - like what patterns are harder than others or what SV makes it easier/harder for HR and HD.

EBAWER123 wrote:

I think every person who is trying to make converts look bad is either a troll or just a plain ol' hater.

EBAWER123 wrote:

You are just blindly repeating same things: "not meant to be played" - don't play it, "stupid map" - best excuse of a noob, "too easy" - if it's too easy than it will be counted as such and it will give less PP? Like srsly what's the problem with you guys, you are not even suggesting anything useful, you were repeating the same things for 5 pages already.

TimmyAkmed wrote:

The old system wasn't accurate but if the new one is, and if you see a taiko map with these kind of streams it would be obviously counted as map with an enormous difficulty and should give a lots of pp. So it would be the same for this map.
Maybe I see a problem where there is no but I think it's the main reason of why std diff should not count in the system.

_Gezo_ wrote:

on one side: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44331
on the other side: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=195834&m=1

play both. see differences. understand why we can't weigh fully StTC in general.

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.

LunaticP wrote:

Sy[K]es wrote:

Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.

for now is no

the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4

i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpm

i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable

on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?

summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable

Tasha wrote:

My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.

As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.

As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.

Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.

Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.

Nashmun wrote:

What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...

By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever

actually i'd like to know how the current broken temporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface

1. Multiply accuracy with star rating of the map (up to a maximum of 500)
2. Divide result by 3 if converted
3. Build the diminishing sum of the best scores for every player

NoYzE wrote:

AnFace wrote:

i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores

Ehh...
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?

Sy[K]es wrote:

I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?

Nashmun wrote:

Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed

Nashmun wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931

TimmyAkmed wrote:

I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.

EBAWER123 wrote:

No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.

TimmyAkmed wrote:

EBAWER123 wrote:

No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.

I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.

And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"

Tom94 wrote:

Since the bonus in score is so small

AnFace wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Since the bonus in score is so small

missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that small

Tasha wrote:

Looking at the most recent one, I'd say its pretty accurate towards the top. Mad Machine being at the top is expected if we're going to weigh converts equally due to the stupidly high speed of the converted streams, and the taiko maps themselves are ordered pretty well. Some of the maps that I'd consider to be harder have harder finisher patterns in them, which aren't weighted by the system now from what I read.

It might be a good idea to come up with some way of weighting finishers because honestly they are a pretty big deal in how maps are read. As an example, Loctav's Oni for this map in its current state is absolutely insane to read the finisher section towards the end (and some of it is unrankable, but i digress), and is notably harder than the same pattern without finishers to read.

Tasha wrote:

What about just applying a bonus for finishers that are in denser parts of the map? Even if the finishers aren't hit, its still technically harder to read them. My previous example (while exaggerated) shows that quite well imo.

_Gezo_ wrote:

They become brutal above 200 1/4 DT @cubes.
And past 250 you come to 1/2 ticks :U

lolcubes wrote:

While it's understandable that everyone is focusing more on how the converts get converted and how the hard maps get valued, but let's talk about lower maps a little.

We have *** Passionate (TV Size) which is valued the same as Dragons. I FCd Passionate with hard rock where I barely get an A on Dragons, with a low combo. Dragons is so much harder because of really odd rhythms and because it's kinda long compared to the TV Size thing.

Then you have Hades in the Heaven which is valued slightly above but then you have a couple of much easier maps, namely Night of Fire by lepidon which is a lot higher above. Certain pattern chain in the middle of the map make Hades really really hard to FC, while Night of Fire has quite simple patterns and is something I consider a beginner's map. Thank you for playing isn't that difficult either and it's even further above.

Also in the mid class you have Intersect Thunderbolt 7491's Oni which is below Ernst Oni. I highly disagree with this, despite Ernst being a bit more pattern heavy. The patterns in Ernst aren't difficult, it's just slightly a more dense map, but in Intersect Thunderbolt you have high speed pattern changes, namely a quite hard 1/3 stream to perform correctly due to it's bpm which contains multiple hand swaps.

Just some thoughts.

Luna wrote:

Tom, could you possibly add some DT maps to the difficulty list so we can see how those are rated?
Stuff like this maybe:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/132889&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/214251&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/267841&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/153886&m=1
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/161275&m=1

All of those are hard DT maps, some moreso than others. I'd just like to see what your program thinks of them.

Thanks!

lolcubes wrote:

It could be possible if the condition is a full combo though. There is extra score after all.
Could have small calculation issues with sliders though, but they give only a certain amount of score so...

Out of curiosity, how are sliders calculated then? You don't have to hit a slider to full combo, but it should show skill too, there are some maps where sliders become absolutely brutal if you have DT activated. Unreal BPMs and all (above 300).

Nashmun wrote:

From what we are sawing, I think we can give it a try so that we can see how it goes for every maps instead of a limited list and then adjust the algorithm little by little

Nashmun wrote:

Yeah I know, just saying that implementing it with pp would help us understand more how it weight every maps and then adjust the algorithm to be even more accurate

Luna wrote:

Since a full implementation in the current state would probably cause a lot of confusion/panic in the community, maybe we can get a thing like ppy did with the initial standard ppv2 testing, where he'd have a seperate (hidden) ppv2 ranking to observe changes etc? If you'd post the link to that ranking in this thread, we could give way more specific feedback without confusing the general public.