Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
This would be a good fix but it's a bit too late as a lot of people will complain and be like "but omg all the difficulty came from the fast notes and now all the mediocre players can beat us boo hoo "LunaticP wrote:
for now is noSy[K]es wrote:
Is it possible to change the way osu! converts maps for taiko mode? I know it may sound retarded in terms of streams BUT, I am just asking.
the only solution I think will be, when a converted map is now playing with taiko mode, all notes are default set back to sv1.4
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmTasha wrote:
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines.
i really hate the talk about unrankable since it can easily mean either "this is too hard for me" or actual stupid things like 1/8 streams at 200 bpmI agree ^ That's why I don't want to see converts being pulled from ranking. They are a different kind of difficulty when playing and I like to mix it up. Sometimes challenge myself with oni and sometimes just a difficult convert
i've spent 2 years playing with hr on and now i can play with sv/od that would be considered (usually) unrankable. same goes for big note patterns like Ddd and ddKdd. i couldn't do these before so i practiced and learned how to do them. what specifically makes these things unrankable
on the other hand i've run into plenty of maps using high bpm 1/6 and 1/8 that i'll never be able to fc but others can. this goes for taiko maps and converted maps. http://osu.ppy.sh/b/157233&m=1 even though this map has really easy patterns i can't fc it because i'm too slow. i'm sure no one thinks this map shouldn't be ranked because of its speed, so why would another map not be allowed to be ranked because of a fast sv?
summary: "too hard" isn't a good reason for unrankable
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, that most of the converted maps are of horrible quality. However pp would be the wrong place to decide what should be ranked and what shouldn't. If converted maps should get improved, then - well - improve the conversion or get rid of the scoreboards. Making the ranking more inconsistent as it already is is definitely not a good idea.Tasha wrote:
My last 2 cents on the matter regarding converted maps vs taiko specific, take it for what you will.
As a mapper, I view the ranking charts as an achievement that the map has met a certain level of quality of gameplay in that game mode, and therefore players should be able to compete on that map in a ranked environment.
As already mentioned several times in this thread, maps made for standard osu! are not designed with the taiko game mode in mind, which leads to the maps not having a suitable quality to be considered rankable under taiko specific criteria... My issue with this? Why should maps that aren't even fitting under ranking criteria for the taiko game mode be included in a ranking system meant for taiko? We might as well just allow things that are currently unrankable if we're going to allow them on the charts anyways through osu!standard maps.
Another issue I take as a mapper is that all of the people on the side of converted maps being included in our new ranking system are basically saying that they care more about quantity of maps than the quality of the maps being included in the ranking system. It makes me feel like there's not even a point to us putting in effort to make our maps enjoyable with some sense of rhythm if all people want is lots of mediocre maps to compete against each other on with rankings.
Finally, as a PLAYER. I highly dislike converted maps because of the sheer amount of unrankable things you can run into. Stuff such as finishers in the middle of streams and high speed, disorienting SV changes that don't fit pacing of the music being two big culprits in converted maps that you frequently run into that aren't rankable under taiko rules / guidelines. I would probably just consider the new system to be as bad as the ppv1 system if it considered converted maps equally to taiko specific maps.
I have a prototype running locally and will post results with various settings as soon as they're ready. Those steps are there exactly to ensure, that converted maps will _not_ be overrated.Nashmun wrote:
What we are afraid of is that those badly converted maps will actually weight more than how difficult they really are, because of settings, usually with high density but easier than a taiko specific with less density, etc...
By the way, did you have time to work on an improved algorithm ? Or do you have an estimation about the time needed for it to be finalized ?
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
Players will still have to get great scores. The metric is called "performance points", not "potential points".AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores/don't play often or whatever
actually i'd like to know how the currentbrokentemporary system is but we're not allowed to see sadface
ideally hell yeaNoYzE wrote:
Ehh...AnFace wrote:
i'm curious about how well it'll work for the really good players that don't have great scores
I guess the new pp system should scan the players' brain for skill that he didn't put into a high score?
You are still thinking inside the box, namely that of the old system.Sy[K]es wrote:
I have got a question.
If x had 10K PP
and y had 3KPP
Let us assume that y got better score than x on the score board, does that affect the PP or just the rank position or none?
most of the maps listed i've never played because of wtfbpm and me being slowface so i'd like to know thisNashmun wrote:
Hey, could you include those maps into the difficulty rating ? They have lower bpm but they are actually pretty hard compared to regular 220+ maps, so it would give us a good indication on how you balanced technical vs speed
THIS MAP.Nashmun wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/204931
TimmyAkmed wrote:
I know your algorithm version isn't over but, i'm not sure we talked about "hitting big notes" in the difficulty of the maps. When the bpm is high it becomes harder to hit the big notes even if you alternate. The big notes density inside the map should also be considered as a + in the difficulty. (more the bpm is high and more the big notes density is high more difficult the map is) When there are big notes you are supposed to hit them. And even if you try to avoid them they are a pain for you to read correctly the next part of the map. Imo it's important cause I think it's one of the reasons that makes "Unpleasant Sonata " so hard to FC.
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
Since the bonus in score is so small and there are no disadvantages over normal notes when hitting them like normal notes I don't think they should coult as "difficulty". If they'd break combo or reduce accuracy if hit wrong, then I'd agree with you more.TimmyAkmed wrote:
I still think the same, when a mapper put big notes in his map he wants us to hit them like big notes. Being able to FC maps like Distorted Lovesong Taikocalypse DX without hitting the big notes doesn't mean to me that you are able to play the map the way it has been thought for (sorry i'm not sure everybody will know what I mean here) If we avoid to hit the big notes it's because it's obviously harder.EBAWER123 wrote:
No, score is enough of a measure. Consider big notes as a bonus points not increase in diff.
And for example even if it's only on Unrankable stuff i'm sure almost everybody who'll see big notes in patterns will have trouble to read it "normally"
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small
Relative to a map with maybe 2,000 hit circles it is. But yeah, depending on how many hit circles there are and how many big notes there are the bonus can also be big, I stand corrected.AnFace wrote:
missing a big note is like getting 2x100. i wouldn't call that smallTom94 wrote:
Since the bonus in score is so small
I'd love to give finishers a proper bonus, but since it's impossible to check whether a player hit the finishers or not this would greatly overvalue maps with finishers when applied to pp for people who did not play them correctly.Tasha wrote:
Looking at the most recent one, I'd say its pretty accurate towards the top. Mad Machine being at the top is expected if we're going to weigh converts equally due to the stupidly high speed of the converted streams, and the taiko maps themselves are ordered pretty well. Some of the maps that I'd consider to be harder have harder finisher patterns in them, which aren't weighted by the system now from what I read.
It might be a good idea to come up with some way of weighting finishers because honestly they are a pretty big deal in how maps are read. As an example, Loctav's Oni for this map in its current state is absolutely insane to read the finisher section towards the end (and some of it is unrankable, but i digress), and is notably harder than the same pattern without finishers to read.
As said in the private discussion I just had with you: Finishers can be skinned small, so they don't make reading more challenging. :/Tasha wrote:
What about just applying a bonus for finishers that are in denser parts of the map? Even if the finishers aren't hit, its still technically harder to read them. My previous example (while exaggerated) shows that quite well imo.