community forum

Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Taiko)

posted
Total Posts
645
Topic Starter
Tom94
Hello everyone,

I've got some initial difficulty lists to show off here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VGc#gid=1
This spreadsheet does not contain every single beatmap, only the ones I selected for testing. Please give me feedback and let me know which version of the algorithm works the best. ;)
Yuzeyun
Why is that ?

Edit: I get it, you're trying to place a new taiko ranking system. However, the calculation of difficulty is yet to be defined as it's not perfect, which would be a factor of performance (patterning + speed), accuracy too. LunaticP started on such a calculator, but it's not 100% finished.

Three parameters (at least, for me) to take into account into the difficulty of a map:

Speed, Accuracy: Nothing to say about these ones, you know'em too well.

Patterning: The core of the difficulty of the map. A longer a pattern is, the tougher it is to hit. As complexity goes, difficulty drastically increases.
Topic Starter
Tom94

_Gezo_ wrote:

Why is that ?
This thread is mainly for the Taiko people to leave suggestions on how the future system should work. I already have a solid plan of what I plan on doing, but I'd like to hear the community's voice.
Yuzeyun
Posted (edited actually) what I would see on the new pp system.

Taiko maps should weight much more than a converted map does, though.
Nashmun
Converted maps should not be counted as we have enough taiko specific map IMO, or at least it should give a strong diff. malus comparing to taiko specific ones.

For the difficulty calculation itself, the main parameter is the density of the map (note/length), but you should also adapt this regarding the number and the lengths of streams each map contains.

EDIT : Also DT mod seems to give A LOT of bonus in std mode atm, but in taiko, I personnaly think it should give a little less, as it's way easier to DT an easy Oni even at 180+ BPM than FCing a nomod 180BPM map with a lot of streams.
EBAWER123
Converted maps should count as there are some maps which are incredibly hard to even pass nomod.

About difficulty:

1) Note/s - Full map of 240 1/4 stream and map with clusters 1/4 300 bpm is about the same same difficulty at least for me, assuming I practiced both streams and high speed maps.

2) Maximum density of a certain amount of notes, for example if a map have an 1/6 1/8 parts of 240 bpm well, a person who can stream that is incredible so even though it's a small part of a song it should count, maybe not much but should.

3) SV should count as well - less time on screen - harder to react

4) DT>HR>HD>FL I think there is no need to explain this?

5) For example DT'ing Big Black requires much more skill than playing any other 180 bpm stream song even with HR. So don't overrate streams please.

6) Best taiko players in the world in no particular order: Orukaa, -applerss-, PM____, -[ ix Ishida xi ]-, zx_baka_0502442, Xay, kusaannanora
Please take a look at those people, they are the best of the best so if they are not in the top, well, you system sucks balls :D
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nashmun wrote:

Converted maps should not be counted as we have enough taiko specific map IMO, or at least it should give a strong diff. malus comparing to taiko specific ones.

For the difficulty calculation itself, the main parameter is the density of the map (note/length), but you should also adapt this regarding the number and the lengths of streams each map contains.

EDIT : Also DT mod seems to give A LOT of bonus in std mode atm, but in taiko, I personnaly think it should give a little less, as it's way easier to DT an easy Oni even at 180+ BPM than FCing a nomod 180BPM map with a lot of streams.
The difficulty spike in standard from DT exists due to differentiating between singles in streams. Since in Taiko you can use both hands in all circumstances, DoubleTime will indeed be less of a factor. :)
Nashmun

EBAWER123 wrote:

Converted maps should count as there are some maps which are incredibly hard to even pass nomod.
How do you tell which one is hard ? If the standard map has a lot of ddddddddd streams and OD8 then it will be considered hard even if it's actually quite easy ? The risk of having easy-mid converted map giving too many pps is too high considering the number of really interesting converted maps. Also we do have enough taiko specific maps to base a ranking system on it.

EBAWER123 wrote:

4) DT>HR>HD>FL I think there is no need to explain this?
Yes pleas explain. HD is actually harder on slow BPM than HR. (And I'm an HR-only player)

EBAWER123 wrote:

5) For example DT'ing Big Black requires much more skill than playing any other 180 bpm stream song even with HR. So don't overrate streams please.
You're overrating speed. There are a lot of players capable to DT regulars oni @180BPM+ who cannot even pass 14-15* Firce's maps at regular BPM.

EBAWER123 wrote:

6) Best taiko players in the world in no particular order: Orukaa, -applerss-, PM____, -[ ix Ishida xi ]-, zx_baka_0502442, Xay, kusaannanora
Please take a look at those people, they are the best of the best so if they are not in the top, well, you system sucks balls :D
Ishida is indeed one of the best players here. But she doesn't make incredible ranks on ranked maps, so I don't know how she could actually be placed in top #10, even with the most accurate system in the world ? If a players doesn't rank online, I don't know how you can expect him to be on top of the ranking and judging its accuracy by that is not a good way.

Tom94 wrote:

The difficulty spike in standard from DT exists due to differentiating between singles in streams. Since in Taiko you can use both hands in all circumstances, DoubleTime will indeed be less of a factor. :)
Ok, thanks for the explanation.
Loctav
Generally, the difficulty of a Taiko map can be determined by two basic factors

- Note density
- Color changes

The note density can be easily termined by considering the time between notes in milliseconds. (this ensures that 1/4 snapped objects on low BPM are not considered as really hard). As higher the note density, as harder the map.

Color changes is the amount of changes between don and kat. Generally said, this is hard to describe. Patterns like kkk k kkk k kkk k are way harder than ddk d k ddk d k, because of exhaustion effects, whereas a ddk triplet is easier than a kdk triplet. When we come to longer streams (above 6 notes or higher), a very high color change increases difficulty, but also a very low one. (e.g. kdddkdddkdddk is easier than kddkdkkdkkdkk or ddddddddddk)

Finishers can be also hard, especially when the previous and upfollowing notes are of the same color. ddd D ddd is harder than ddk D kkd. Finishers at the end of a stream are easier, when most of the previous notes were of the opposite color (e.g. ddddK is easier than ddkdK).

Doubles are hard to get if mixed together with triplets or quadruplets.

Every pattern that is a combination of xxy/xyy patterns is easier to play than patterns of a xyx/xxx combination. (whereas x is color 1 and y is color 2) (kddkddkddk is easy. ddkkddkkddkk is easy. ddk is easy. dk kd is easy. kd kd is harder. kdkdkkkd is harder. kdk is harder. dddk is harder than ddk

Let me give out a few examples with maps working in various ways to create difficulty (it could be that many of these maps are my own, but I just know them the best, so sorry to appear biased):

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/171025&m=1 a quite simple Oni, mainly working with triplets (easiest "hard pattern" in Taiko) that are working in a xxY fashion. (ddk oder kkd are easier than dkd and kdk)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/262458 finish overusing map. Please consider that the finishers at the streamends are painful and also the 1/2 quicktapping part with finishers inbetween is really difficult. It also provides the above example of kkk k kkk k kkk stuff that is really really really painful.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/284037&m=1 Working with longstreams (many color changes here), being an eggpain to play. If you drop once you are out. Out of everything.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/263683 Using doubles in a fancy fashion, a decent Oni level (Insane level). The hardest part for me is the dddddddk dddddk ddk thing, because its hard to keep up streaming the same color without switching to kat inbetween.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169371 the monotony of this patterns makes your hand complain. I assure you.

Anyways, Taiko's skill is basically based on tapping speed and reading skill. BPM is highly correlated to skill.

Moreover, HD and HR are equal, DT increases OD massively. HD players are having more problems on lower BPMs (due to low scrolling speed), whereas HR players are having more problems with higher BPM (due to HR causing a too fast scrolling speed). DT doesnt change scrollspeed based on SV but on BPM, but it decreases the hitwindow massively. HD+HR is impossible to read. FL+HD is memorization (you wont see ANY note at all), FL+HR is also memorization, but objectively easier (since you can at least see the notes, even if its just a short while).

Basically I see it like (vision based mods. HD/HR/FL only affect vision): (HD = HR) < HD+HR < FL < FL+HR < FL+HD < FL+HD+HR
DT is an extra factor, increasing OD and BPM and therefore should be calculated into the difficulty where note density calculations happen.


Please comment.
Quiesce
Some factors I can think of:
  1. Pattern type, e.g. ddk vs ddkddkddk
  2. Pattern repetition, e.g. ddk ddk ddk ddk
  3. Pattern consistency,e.g. ddk kkd dkd dkk
  4. Pattern speed, more or less falls under BPM
  5. Mods
  6. BPM
  7. Accuracy
  8. etc.
Luna
As others before me already said, speed and accuracy are pretty basic factors that you should have a decent understanding of even ig you don't play the mode (it may be relevant that the taiko hit judgement formula is a bit more strict than in standard, not sure if your algorithm needs the specifics. Link to the table in any case: here).
Pattern/reading skill is probably the hardest part to measure, so I'll give all the input I can give on this topic.

1) SV - Extremely high/low SV is hard to read, but should probably only give a small bonus since DSing is a thing and not provable =/

2) Mix streams - Streams get a lot more complicated if you mix in clusters of 1/3 or 1/6. Not only are they more rhythmically challenging, but they also require advanced hand switching if you fully alternate (which almost all highly ranked players do).
In case you are not entirely sure what I mean, a ddddkkkkdddd 1/4 stream is really easy since the leading hand hits every white tick while the secondary hand just plays blue tick beats; a dddd[kkkk]dddd stream (square brackets signifying 1/6) however requires a leading hand switch on the second dddd part since it starts on a blue tick.

3) Pattern complexity - As a rule of thumb, the more repetitive a stream, the easier it is. Streams are especially easy if they only really change on white ticks. For example. dkkkdkkkdkkkdkkkd... is very easy, so are ddkkddkkddkkd... and dkdkdkdkdkdkd...
dkkkddkkdkkkddkkd... is a bit more advanced, but still very basic.
More complicated streams implement kddkddkddk or kkkdddkkkddd style patterns - the difficulty here stems, again, from hand switching. While you don't need to switch leading hands offbeat like in the 1/6 example, the "sub-patterns" still force minor leading hand switches (both kddkddk... and kkkdddk... are actually non-repeating 6-note clusters even though they look like repetitive 3-note patterns).
All that being said, a pure kddkddkddkddkddkddk... stream or similar structure isn't extremely hard due to its repetitive nature, it only really gets tricky once you mix it with easier patterns, thus forcing irregular hand switches.

4) dk kd kd kk dk dk dd dk kd doubles spam and similar shenanigans can be really hard to read and play, at least at high BPM. Again, the more irregular the composition, the harder.

5) ddddddddddddddddkdddddd... (even number of d, then k) is intuitive and easy to read/play.
dddddddddddddddkddddddd... (uneven number of d, then k; k on blue tick) is really unintuitive and most people will probably miss here on a sightread attempt.

EBAWER already listed some of the best players, so I'll go ahead and give you a few of the hardest ranked taiko maps to check your diff calculator with (also no particular order):
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/179231&m=1 I'm Your Daddy [Fatal Oni] - Unrelenting high speed map with tricky 1/6 clusters
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/92643&m=1 Shinsekai [Taiko] - These streams make absolutely no farking sense, and they last for a long time
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/261205&m=1 IMAGE -MATERIAL- <Version 0> [Firce777's Taiko Oni] - Several long, somewhat complex 260 BPM streams
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/192573&m=1 Because Maybe! pt. 3 [Taiko Collab] - Stamina Killer #1. Patterns are pretty basic, but the speed and length make it incredibly hard to FC/get a good combo
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/245124&m=1 Distorted Lovesong [Taikocalypse DX] - A few of the note clusters towards the end of the map are just stupid at this BPM
NoYzE
If you have a good score system (algorithm) you do not need to exclude converted maps because they give points relative to their real difficulty, so there is nothing to fear about i think.
Personally i would miss something if converted maps don't give any points because compared to the whole osu mappool the taiko mappool is pretty small and many converted maps are still fun.
If a taiko specific map is actually harder to play it should give more points of course, but not more points for "no reason" just because it's taiko specific.

However i'm very excited about the new Taiko Ranking System and want to thank you, Tom94, for your awesome work so far.

Greetings,
NoYzE
OnosakiHito
I'm rather neutral to this but have to agree with Nashmun when considering the facts we have. Our gamemode is well established with its specific maps and could work even without the converted maps. Moreover would it be pretty hard to state what converted map is hard or easy. The times when Taiko was only a mod for farming points is over, so should be probably the pp for converted maps, I think. We can keep it for fun, but have it for ranking is rather questionable... again, we have specific maps and even sets now. Kantan/Futsuu can take over the job of the converted osu-taiko maps.

Currently the ranking is better than before I would say. It seems that taiko specific difficulties give a higher amount of pp than converted osu-taiko maps, which is good. In most cases specific diffs are harder anyway. - It is obvious that we have people who would deserv higher ranks in the ranking, but these people mostly play offline maps and have only here and there some awesome ranks which can't conver the amount of ranks of a player who played mostly all taiko maps in this community.
That's the reason why I would say that current rank from kanopu #1, Gezo #6, Nashmun #8 or me #16 is -somewhat- right, since probably all of us played all these years mostly specific taiko difficulties, not converted. I can't tell about the others for sure, but in my case it would apply in this way.


Mods


Doubletime
The slower the song, the less pp you gain.
The faster the song, the more pp you gain.

Hidden
The slower the song, the more pp you gain because, you have to remember more notes for some periode of time.
The faster the song, the less pp you gain because, you have to remember less notes for some periode of time.

HardRock
The slower the song, the less pp you gain because, density becomes higher and notes are less clustered. Easier readable.
The faster the song, the more pp you gain because, the density becomes really high and hard to read.

Flashlight
Should be disabled or give no points. Too often there was a problem with this mod.
Most people do not play it and it has been often abused (HD+FL+HR). That's my opinion.

Of course, we have to take care of OD and SV here.

Patterns



Generally the difficulty of Taiko maps is determined by following factors:
  1. Note density
  2. Pattern complexity
  3. SV
    + the standart factors of course
  4. BPM
  5. OD / HP


...

I see, Loctav and Luna posted something already, so lets give this a read first? Maybe they covered already what I wanted to say.

Also I have something else to add here which could help in some way. I'm not sure how you want to make the new pp system for taiko, but I always thought that it is important to know what difficulty patterns have, and how their diff. rise when putting them together to a stream or something else. As gezo said, Lunatic made a programm which contains these factors and more. Maybe you wanna give it a read (t/177867), but for now have these links which contain my ideas from the past (Rokodo was so nice to write it down):

http://puu.sh/4e0d9.png (graph)
http://puu.sh/4e0hg.png (graph)
http://puu.sh/4dZLK.png (Star System pic)
http://puu.sh/4eB03.pdf (Star System explanation)


@EBAWER123: HD is mostly equal to HR. It only depends of the map's BPM which makes one of the mods harder/easier. You can say that HR makes OD harder, but for that you gain more points for spinners.

*moved topic to Announcements
EBAWER123
@Nash Just by default even if we do not consider reading problems with HR/HD, ie HD ultra slow SV and HR ultra fast SV, HR requires more acc, that's all.

Converted maps which actually require skill:

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=199304&m=1
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55560 both diffs
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/95382?m=1

etc...
Nashmun
Thank you for assuming I'm stupid. I know how to recognize a hard converted, but it's hard/too risky to let an algorithm make the difference.
WemadeFOX-solo

OnosakiHito wrote:

Flashlight
Should be disabled or give no points. Too often there was a problem with this mod.
Most people do not play it and it has been often abused (HD+FL+HR). That's my opinion.
This, flashlight may be an challenge to the player but shouldn't influence in the ladder at all, people are just abusing of it to raise pp.
DakeDekaane
imo, most of converted stuff is "hard" just because the high SV, OD and maybe the HP, many of them a're basically d d k d d.d k d d d k ... or a d k d k spam.
I haven't played converted stuff for a while, so I may be wrong, but I do agree specific difficulties should have more weight.
Luna

OnosakiHito wrote:

Currently the ranking is better than before I would say. It seems that taiko specific difficulties give a higher amount of pp than converted osu-taiko maps, which is good.
Wat.
Are we looking at the same stuff?

Let's play a guessing game, okay? Guess whose top performance list this is:



It's Orukaa, aka the best player out there. The guy who DT'd Freedom Dive. But clearly these [Normal]s and [Easy]s are his real achievements =P
Nashmun
He didn't play since the update, his scores are not updated yet I guess.
OnosakiHito
Comment to Loctav
  1. SV is also an elementary factor here, especially when playing with mods. The scrollbar is after all the playfield.
  2. Well, you showed now some patterns which might be hard/easy, but the question is rather which play-style do we considere. Is it ooxx or xoox ? This is important to be able to determinate what patterns are hard/easy. So if you ask me, the authentic style (xoox) should be considered in the calculation, since this is after all a game based by a drum which is played in this way. So are oxxoxxo really hard patterns since the alternate way of them is really complicated.
Considering the alternate-play way, I say the controversy about some patterns you mentioned before:
oox / xoo > oxo / xox

oxxoxxo -> really hard pattern for alternate
oooxxxo -> ^

ooo ooo o ooo o ooo -> easier since you have rest moments (the gaps)
oooooooooooooooo -> harder, have to play frequently with constant timing

Loctav wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169371 the monotony of this patterns makes your hand complain. I assure you.
So again, for someone who doesn't alternate, this pattern can become hard. Those who do, they feel totally okay with it. Monotonically streams are a bigger problem since you have to keep the hit frequency and can't swap to another finger. I'm an "alternater" and I never had a problem with these patterns. Neither do others of my "kind".

I hope I wasn't too short with my explanations. I want to keep it as short as possible.
  1. As I stated above, I think FL is not really needed here.



Comment to Luna

Luna wrote:

1) SV - Extremely high/low SV is hard to read, but should probably only give a small bonus since DSing is a thing and not provable =/
If FL is disabled or gives no points, this problem will no longer be existent.

To point 3.) You are mostly right. Just let me mention that it is easier to play patterns which have more main notes than semi notes?
Easier: kdddkddk
Harder: dkkkdkkkd

Everything else I would personally agree to. The more irregular a pattern becomes, the harder it is to play.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply