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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option

posted
Total Posts
391

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
96
50.79%
Yes, with a negative multiplier
40
21.16%
No
53
28.04%
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,763
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winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

rickyboi wrote:

I'm supporting Theowests's opinion on this.

This game is more on Accuracy and Aim NOT on how fast or slow you can read the notes.

and about HR being easier when AR is lowered down- Seriously? It's still hard to get aim and get a better accuracy even with lower AR. It still fucking increases the OD , makes the cirlces smaller and adds more drain to the life. You're just limiting the players who could/should play HR which doesn't even make sense on a rythm game. There's a reason why most of Korean/Japanese Rythm games have control of the speed reading, it's because the creators want to maximize every player's potential on how they play it either be fast or slow in the end it still depends who's the most accurate player.
Trying to the read true AR 11 with OD 10 is a shit ton harder than reading AR 9 with OD 10. Even just doing AR 10 is a decent amount harder than AR 9 and OD 10. It's just training your reaction, and it's like learning to play a certain type of pattern. For example, having sixteenth note kick sliders (that can be played like 1/2 tick notes or eight notes) can be hard to read for some people at first, but after time, you get the reaction time to understand what type of pattern it is faster and are able to adjust accordingly. Same with AR. AR is a skill, and imo it is very different from how fast those blocks/arrows/whatever move in different rhythm games.

AR imo is something kinda special and unique to osu! which I like (not because I can somewhat read the faster AR's), but I remember clearly that even when I couldn't even read AR 10 and barely AR 9.5, which was around the time this thread was made, I still completely disagreed with this.

Furthermore, this completely messes up every single possible DT/HR score out there if implemented.

Also it just feels like we are trying to progress to the norm. AR is an interesting twist on most things and keeping it that way would add more to osu! as a game imo.
Archangel Tirael
479 posts
Joined January 2011
Archangel Tirael
This is fundamentally breaks
the gameplay, very easy game
and it is, therefore, leads to
changes in the algorithm of
the scoring... A further
develop logic. Although this
idea is part of some
"ideological" project in osu!, I
would not want to see this in PC
version of the game, in which we all played,
play and will play. I do not
support.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Aqo wrote:

Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
I'd support, but of course that won't happen since peppy is against unranked mods.
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

Aqo wrote:

Let me put up a question

If the players could control the AR on an unrankable mode, i.e. you could play unranked with any AR you want, do you support or oppose this?
Try to ignore the current stance against unranked plays. Just the mere concept of letting players play with whatever AR they want for fun, without ranking, this doesn't hurt anybody does it? Support or no?
I would support, if osu! was not competitive, because it gives the user more flexibility. Offline games are made to cater to pretty much as many people as possible. It's kinda like hacking offline games, no one really gives a crap, and many find it fun, too. Most of the time, offline games aren't very skill based, or don't require much skill to play decently and have fun.

Once you reach a worldwide scale with competition, you can't really take something essential out of the gameplay. Pardon this piano example, but for instance, if I were to practice my ass off playing something hard, e.g. the Mephisto Waltz or something, for a competition, and then the competition rules completely changed, so that the speed and technique required of the song is not going to be judged whatsoever, some kid could play some Bach Prelude and Fugue perfectly and extremely musically with no mistakes and beat me in the competition, despite how much more amazing my performance sounded (depending on how unclear or inaccuractely I played the notes in the Mephisto Waltz). Now, AR is a very important part of osu! as speed and technique is to piano (well, speed isn't as important, but meh). Basically what's happening is you are giving the kid who plays that Bach Prelude and Fugue to match up with some professional. In any sort of competitive thing, it is completely illogical to do such a thing unless the kid really deserves it with hard work and practice. Some people just have the piano talent, and some people don't. So if that's the case, are you agreeing that the average/pretty good piano kid is on par with the professional? Some people have better reaction times, because either they just have it, or because they actually trained it through other means, rather than perhaps some kid who sits around all day watching TV (I'm not saying that's you guys :x lol). AR is pretty similar.

Now, saying that, it makes it look like I'm mad because if this does get implemented many people who can't read fast AR will now most likely be able to rank just as high as many of the pros who mainly HR. And I do stick to that point, that YES, approach rate really does matter and mess up accuracy, but as I already stated earlier, I have had this exact mentality that allowing for approach rate to be changed is nonsense almost ever since I started playing. All I thought is "Okay, if this is how osu! is, if this is how the game is supposed to be play, I will work my way up there." When the thread was made, and I couldn't even read AR 9.5, I did not agree. (After some work, I can read the so-called AR10.33)
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
After your entire post W1 I can't understand why you quoted my post. You didn't answer the question.

Are you for or against allowing to play with any AR you want /unranked/, i.e. you won't be able to use this for the competitive scene, only for singleplayer fun.
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
The first three words of my monologue answered the question. The first paragraph was a little more detail the unranked aspect of this request.

The rest of the paragraphs were in response to allowing for players to change AR even for ranked plays.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
hey, lets make it so you can change the circle size, od and life drain aswell.
i totally dont support this, AR is part of the map. and if you want to play with a different AR, fine, but then you play unranked.
its like getting rid of a stream and put a slider or a spinner or something because you cant play streams.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
how about allowing to choose from -0.5 to +0.5 so, if a map has AR9, you can choose from AR8.5 to AR9.5 ?
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I am unsure of whether adding this is a good idea or not. My personal opinion is that it should be allowed (with possible restrictions or changes for HD/FL to ensure visibility is the same), but even after reading through this thread, opinions are split.

I have added a poll to this thread, so please make your opinion known by voting.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
The poll makes it unclear whether it's user-definable AR for ranked play or for unranked play which is where the main split in opinions comes from. Everybody would oppose user-definable AR on ranked plays, while they wouldn't mind it to exist as an unranked option.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
For ranked plays, specifically. You should know I don't believe in this whole "unranked" thing :P.

Though alternative, a negative multiplier could be applied when the AR isn't default.
Michi
134 posts
Joined June 2011
Michi
Supported
iHateFatPeople_old
iHateFatPeople_old
This is one of the most stupid feature requests ever. Something like this would render Double Time and Hard Rock useless. Osu is fine the way it is.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
You may think it is stupid, but a lot of people have upvoted this, so I am looking to get an overall opinion on the matter in form of numbers. Feel free to add your vote :).

Also, as I mentioned, for mod play there would likely be restrictions. And quite possibly you would only be able to increase the AR, not decrease.
Tom69_old
Tom69_old

peppy wrote:

Also, as I mentioned, for mod play there would likely be restrictions. And quite possibly you would only be able to increase the AR, not decrease.
Totally supporting the "only increase" part. That way high AR still keeps its difficulty.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I kinda like being able to only increase the AR, lowering makes stuff more cluttered anyways.
Canneh
107 posts
Joined October 2010
Canneh
I do agree with pepz, by only being able to increase and not decrease the AR.
Evanlet
99 posts
Joined January 2011
Evanlet
+1 for increasing AR only.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.

If you just added this with a score-reducing factor with no limitation on AR range it would be muuuuch better imo. That way you don't hurt current rankings (nobody would complain that suddenly people get rank for free on AR8 maps because they could increase it, or anything of that sort, because your score would be penalized) and at the same time people who want to change AR (which is usually people who only play for fun and don't care for rank anyway) would be able to do it freely with no limitations without throwing off the balance of osu!'s competitive aspect. I'm sure players like Millhiore would enjoy being able to set AR to lower amounts and it would open a ton of fun play possibilities (that are /harder/ because of the lower AR), without hurting anybody else who's not interested in playing like that.

(either way, it would be great if you finally allowed players to pick ARs higher than 10 without DT. Preferably with 1/3 increments, since 1AR = 150ms difference, 1/3 would be 50ms. In anything post-AR10 that 50ms makes a large difference)
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

winber1 wrote:

honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Lets say I'm in the mood to play a random map that I like with AR10.3 today, without aiming to rank on it in the scoreboard - it would still add into playcount and account statistics ofc i.e. score reduction effect. (and if I wanted to rank on it for max score, I'd have to play it with the default map AR).

Does this hurt you in any way? why do you oppose this?
Isn't it a win-win situation to give players more features without taking away existing game behavior? What do you have against this

afaik the only argument against letting players pick their AR when playing is that either lower or higher AR can lead to scores that are otherwise too-hard to get, making it unfair for players who previously weren't able to get those scores without adjusting their AR. Since this is the only problem, the obvious solution is to make it so that you can't get better scores by changing the AR, and then everything stays fair. Do you have any other argument against this?
Mirage
627 posts
Joined May 2011
Mirage
Please. Please please please please please please please please please please please
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

winber1 wrote:

honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.

no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Exactly my thoughts.
Being able to change the AR just feels wrong.

increasing only sounds interesting, but seriously, who would increase AR9 to AR10? (except for people like Aqo, but oh well..)
AR10 breaks the flow of the map in most maps below 200~ BPM, which is why it's never used.
And for most players, AR7 is not very different from AR8 oder 9 gameplay-wise, so no real need for doing that...

I could live with it if would really reduce score, but I would probably never use it ._."
Layne_old_1
Layne_old_1

Zarerion wrote:

increasing only sounds interesting, but seriously, who would increase AR9 to AR10? (except for people like Aqo, but oh well..)
<-- ~
SteRRuM
678 posts
Joined October 2008
SteRRuM
yes!! i support ONLY increasing ar! idea good very
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

Aqo wrote:

It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.
Yeah, it just doesn't seem right to shift the power even more to the mole whackers and away from the map readers by allowing them to turn any map into whack-a-mole and not allowing the same to be true for people that want to do the reverse (and really, it's only a small number of maps that push their AR too high and result in a map where it feels like you're spending half your time waiting for the next hit circle to pop up so you can whack it (as opposed to the mole whacker aggravation of feeling like they're spending half their time waiting for approach circles to close)).

The whether the player is increasing or decreasing the AR, since the program can't really judge the effect on difficulty, for game balance you have to assume that the map has been made considerably easier regardless of setting (even if they're intentionally making it hard on themselves... the program can't know that unless it's made to be able to judge difficulty accurately, and that's extra tricky because difficulty is somewhat subjective). Which is why I think if it is allowed, it should be allowed in either direction (because either way can be easier or harder, there isn't a difference in allowing one or the other), and with a score penalty.
KoumeSh
762 posts
Joined December 2010
KoumeSh
Support, but I prefer to limit the define setting to AR+1 or AR+2,
so that in easy or normal maps, you can't go AR9 in a difficulty with an AR3, but you can adjust it to AR4 or AR5.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
Current Priority: +265
Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
Pizzicato
2,739 posts
Joined February 2011
Pizzicato
slow AR's harder to read anyway :3

support
rickyboi
839 posts
Joined October 2008
rickyboi
Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
Pizzicato
2,739 posts
Joined February 2011
Pizzicato
i'm fine with the fixed AR because some maps look ugly with fast/slow AR.the mapper picked that certain AR because he/she thinks it's the best AR for his/her map (imo)
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
Meh I think it should decrease score since it makes it easier for a lot of people.
As I said before, if it makes it easier, it should decrease score. If it doesn't make it easier for everybody, then the people who don't get anything from it will be at a disadvantage (and no, please don't allow AR to be lowered; either way it should decrease score since its a difficulty decreasing effect)
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
can i use my votes to take away 2 votes from this
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

rickyboi wrote:

Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

peppy wrote:

Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
Sorry but AR is something set by the mapper, this is A LOT more important to a map than a SB is and as such I think it should be left alone. Some maps would be made insanely easy with higher AR's which is completely unfair to older players.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I also think it would be refreshing if we could throw away the whole "unfair to old plays" attitude and objectively consider possible improvements, but that is a hard fence to jump.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
This is a great and a terrible thing, I wouldn't mind having some things changed but this is certainly one of the things I can see taking the charm out of a lot of maps.

mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
Last edited by jesse1412 , edited 1 time in total.
RBRat3
osu!painter
762 posts
Joined April 2010
RBRat3
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

RBRat3 wrote:

What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
fair enough, but I'd like to see it off for older maps.
RBRat3
osu!painter
762 posts
Joined April 2010
RBRat3
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

RBRat3 wrote:

I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.
RBRat3
osu!painter
762 posts
Joined April 2010
RBRat3

theowest wrote:

RBRat3 wrote:

I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.

Having it go into effect for all will murder old scores and its unfair to those who earned them...
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )

Having it the way I just proposed would make everyone happy
-Oldhats keep their scores
-You get your feature
-Mappers can force AR Rate or keep it open by choice
-You can have an older beatmap AR opt-able upon request with a fresh score slate
Last edited by RBRat3 , edited 1 time in total.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Guys you're going in circles...

Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.

Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.

Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.

Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.

Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.

I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

RBRat3 wrote:

If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.

Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
RBRat3
osu!painter
762 posts
Joined April 2010
RBRat3

Sakura wrote:

RBRat3 wrote:

If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.

Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
"I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation." Meaning old maps and their scores go untouched and the feature locked out to its creator.

I dont think its so bad seeing 2 difficulties

Normal open AR
Normal Fixed AR
Last edited by RBRat3 , edited 2 times in total.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami
The ability to read different approach rates is currently a required skill to become a top-tier osu! player. If everyone could use an approach rate that suited their preference, the game would be cheapened.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Sakura wrote:

RBRat3 wrote:

If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.

Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
9 times out of 10 increasing AR makes it easier, that other 10% of the time only applies to very intense maps. It's unfair plain and simple, AR is a skill just like being able to do jumps, streams and complex patterns, it's part of the map which makes it hard. There is NO WAY to make this fair at all so the best option would be to leave it off. I don't think there is a single person here he can read every approach rate from 1 to 12. This kind of thing would make some DT scores completely pointless, look at mezame and bamboo dance for instance, niko-'s AR11 scores on those are hard due to the approach rate. Add this and AR11 scores will become completely irrelevant and I personally enjoy praising our asian overlords who manage AR11 FC's.
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross

MillhioreF wrote:

increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~
Yeah, I know... I'd like to use it for decreases too. I've such a strong association with AR9 maps being whack-a-moleish that I regularly misjudge AR9 used appropriately as AR8 (and conversely, I have mistaken AR8 for AR9 when a map has very limited look ahead). I'd love to be able to tune those maps down to a level that actually makes it easier to see the patterns and learn the map. Trying to recognize patterns when you can only see a couple circles ahead is like trying to do it with flashlight on... you need to put things together in your head to see the picture, because it's never fully shown to you. And that's a lot more thinking and memorizing than I like to do while playing, because I'm only a casual player. I'd much rather be able to easily play a map at a lower AR to learn it at a penalty, then move on to the regular AR if I care for full points later... much the same way that I can practice a map without FL to learn it, and then try it with FL later for more points. One is applying blinders with space and the other with time.

peppy wrote:

Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).
I think it's safe to say that for everyone, there exists some maps that would be made easier by changing AR. Those maps will differ from person to person, and to the extent that AR is changed. This is true for most people even with AR only increasing (HR helped me even as a beginner to pass maps I would have had a hard time doing otherwise, and the main thing I was looking for was higher AR for a cleaner map, which would more than make up for any extra difficulty increase in the other factors). It can also be said that decreasing AR will at the very least make things easier for many people on some maps.

Increasing helps people that have trained to react quickly, decreasing helps people that want more look ahead to read maps. These are two different skills, and both should probably be rewarded to some extent. Personally, I'd steer away from making preferences favour reaction time more than things currently do. That moves things further to becoming a twitch game and less of a music game.

Aqo wrote:

I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Yeah, I don't see why either.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?

"but hard rock makes notes smaller cri cri cri." tough shit, you want your map to have a more readable approach rate you should deal with the map being harder (you even get a higher multiplier).

"but easy mod makes the AR too low!" but everything is easier, bigger notes, lower od and lower AR! can't do lower approach rate? tough shit!
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Now that i think of it, someone mentioned in here that the rate arrows/blocks/whatever fall/raise in those other rythm games was the equivalent to the AR in osu!, however that rate is also increased/decreased with BPM and works as a way of a multiplier, if AR is going to be compared with that, then it should be compared with BPM/Slider Vel as well, and mappers already set an AR that fits with the map's speed, i'd think if green lines modifying Speed could affect them would make the AR basically the same as those games.

But it doesnt work that way... so the analogy doesn't work.

jesus1412 wrote:

Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?
Except Hard rock makes some maps actually easier due to the increase in AR :P
winber1
4,519 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
you know, if we are gonna go through with this, this should seriously probably go along with the "Easy Mode" mod discussion, where people have discussed the possibility of being able to adjust OD, AR, and HP to a certain extent. Easy Mode kinda does need some reworking anyways.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

peppy wrote:

Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

theowest wrote:

Current Priority: +265
Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
Wow... this is the first post i see from you I consider stupid.

Anyway ... I have no problems at all if this has a negative factor on score. It doesn't have to be a huge jump like HT and NoFail (0,3x and 0,5x). Maybe somthing to 0,8 or 0,9x.
I can understand both sides... even though I am technicly on the contra side. (Only compromise is this reducing score multiplier for me ;) )
People who use it to increase it are people who are better on high AR which means they have a advantage which is unfair ... I already see counter arguments for this one :P But if they get an advantage why not give everyone an advantage by being able to de/increasing high AR?
I really don't understand this "only being able to increase it" part.
But anyways ... I see it coming that most people vote for "Yes" orz
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Whatever you do, please let us pick any lower AR too, not just higher. You can already pick higher with HR (altho it's limited in not being able to pick 9 on a map with 8, or anything above 10 without DT, so hopefully this will be addressed). Lower is problematic because EasyMod doesn't let you pick the range you want and there's a huge leap between 8>7>6>5>4.

[Edit] Gonna point this out again because not enough people seemed to have noticed it or it's just being ignored: (and those who noticed it agree so lets hear the others too)
Do you have any argument against letting users pick any AR for any map with a score reduction?

People who want to play with unique AR: can do it freely with no limitations, but can't use it to score against people who used default AR; because if you're picking a different AR it's most likely easier for you, and even if you're doing it to challenge yourself you won't care for score.
People who have to pass the challenge of map default AR: can score normally for 100% without suffering penalty of changed-AR, so they will always rank higher.

It's win-win. Nobody loses anything, everybody gets what they want.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.

Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Makar wrote:

People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.

Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
would be to easy and also there is no advantage for people who want a great rank easily
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Got no problem with this, as long as it can be done on a per-map basis, because I'd probably want to go with whatever AR the mapper chose most of the time. This would be nice for those maps where the AR really should have been a notch higher or lower, though.

I don't play competitively in any capacity or care about my stats, so I have no opinion on the score change issue. :P
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Kyou-kun wrote:

peppy wrote:

Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>

Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally :P.
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
With a score reduction (50-70% loss..?), I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented. Just have a slider at the mods page for AR that drops the score multiplier as soon as you touch it.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Shut up and take my star!
laserpollo
131 posts
Joined June 2011
laserpollo
Good idea, i can't wait for playing with higher AR :)
CaCtus112
227 posts
Joined May 2011
CaCtus112
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

CaCtus112 wrote:

everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
I don't know how this works in CTB but in Standard lower AR would make those two maps even harder than they are now lol
if score is reduced there would be no problem either way
XEPCOH
529 posts
Joined February 2011
XEPCOH

CaCtus112 wrote:

where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
big black is unf*ckable even with AR8 or 9, I checked...
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
All I'm going to say is even while I WOULD LIKE THIS since IT WOULD BENEFIT ME since I suck@low AR, this will completely fuck up the actual ranking system. So if you are seriously gonna think about adding this, start getting ideas about how this change should be applied so it will not fuck everything up. Remember how AR limits many maps to not being DT'd by pretty much anyone, same applies to DT+HR (unplayable almost for everyone on every AR 7/8 map). Then you got some dumb maps which have as extra difficulty the fact they use AR 8 (masterpiece, [Legend] series, etc).

If you do change this, think about how everything will get completely screwed up, and if this change is applied, you should get a penalty big enough so reducing AR for DT+HR or even for DT alone would make no sense. I'd say the penalty should be applied IF YOU LOWER THE AR AND NOT IF YOU RISE IT, but that's probably a matter of preference. The real issue is the fact that HR+DT combo will become doable on many maps, and DT will be doable on some maps where the real difficulty is AR 9 DT.

Won't read the whole thread since it's stupidly long and I don't care enough to do it.
benguin
277 posts
Joined January 2012
benguin
I think user-defineable AR should be allowed, without penalty. I'm a regular player of Flash Flash Revolution and a casual player of stepmania, and the speedmod (which is analogous to AR on osu) can be set by the user to any amount without penalty. And nobody even considers or discriminates against other people's speedmods, it doesn't make any player "better" or "worse", everyone just uses what they are comfortable with. I've seen pro players with speedmods of 1.7x speedmod and noob players with a 2.3x speedmod and vice versa, it's just a matter of personal preference.

If changing AR should change the scoring, then perhaps we should give mappers the ability to also tell us which keys to use, which input devices to use, and which skins to use as well.

I don't see how some people are saying that AR isn't analogous to other speed/scroll settings in other games. One would keep raising it to the point until you can actually differentiate the notes and have a firm grasp of what's going on in terms of pattern recognition (having it too low will just make it look like a blob of notes all on the screen at once with a million approach circles at the same time). You stop raising it when you notice you aren't getting enough time to react and/or you lose that sense of pattern recognition again. Basically higher scroll rates and AR give you more spacing in between notes (easier readability) and lower scroll rates and AR give you more reaction time. It's up to the person themselves to find the middle ground that works for them and this middle ground is going to be different for each person.

I kinda glanced through some of the previous pages of the thread and noticed someone saying how Airman is impossible on AR9. As for me, I can almost pass it on AR9 (I still fail in the ending jumps) but I can't even get past the first minute of it with AR10. Although AR8 on Airman is too clustered and unreadable for me to do well at all. Allowing changing AR would let everyone play it at the speed at which they feel comfortable.

As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.

As for hardrock, I'd just say make it simple by making a 0+ change to AR when hardrock is selected. Hardrock is supposed to make the song harder, in an objective as possible sense, and since increasing AR is an aid to some people, it defeats the purpose of this mod.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami

benguin wrote:

As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
The reason why the approach rate increases by 1.5x and the reason why you have 2/3 the timing window to hit circles accurately is because everything time-related is multiplied by 1.5. Not because of what you said.

Reading confusing patterns with low approach rate is a part of the difficulty in osu!.
VelperK
osu!catch Champion
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

Gomo Psivarh wrote:

I ONLY support that you can customize AR and the custom AR will neutralize score bonus from mods.
DontTalkwithMir
DontTalkwithMir
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
ririco
6,402 posts
Joined February 2011
ririco
I think, I'll support if we can customize the AR and circle size at the same time, it'll be more fun like this :<
CaCtus112
227 posts
Joined May 2011
CaCtus112

DontBrownieMir wrote:

You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
^this
Tenacious J
77 posts
Joined September 2010
Tenacious J

DontBrownieMir wrote:

You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
My thoughts exactly. Though I would like to use this kind of feature for song training or simply for fun. There are certain songs that either go over the top or is too slow for my taste. But for fairness' sake this should be an UNRANKABLE feature, because we already have Mods that alter AR.
Tshemmp
1,405 posts
Joined June 2011
Tshemmp
0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

CaCtus112 wrote:

DontBrownieMir wrote:

You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
^this
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
*sigh*

While AR does add difficulty to maps, people really overestimate how much of an effect it has. I'd like to see all those people who think AR10 is too much for airman try to play it with AR9 (just go into Edit and change the map) and then see their surprised faces when they still fail at 200bpm fullscreen jumps and it's absolutely not related to reading the AR. Alternatively, people playing maps with "too low" AR and realizing that having the correct timing for long circle-jump patterns on high bpm is still challenging even if you're reading it in a comfortable AR.

A small score reduction would be enough. Or hell, it can be 50% like EasyMod. Nobody who has trouble FCing a dragonforce [Legend] map would suddenly be able to do it with AR9 instead of 8, and nobody who has trouble playing AR9+DT would suddenly get better at it by setting AR to 8+DT, because the physical difficulty for those plays is always ten notches higher than the reading difficulty.

Right now HR+DT on a map with AR7 or higher (which results in AR11 ala. 300ms) is indeed next to impossible for most people and would become possible if you could lower the AR, however if there was a 50% reduction for this then lol, it would far outweigh the benefit of +6% score from HR and a simple DT record (instead of HR+DT+ARmod) would still always rank higher, so there's no problem.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Actually yeah, AR 8 is shit and makes many maps really harder than they would be with AR 9. I FC'd masterpiece squares first try on AR 9, but I've never been able to do them (and I can barely clear them) on AR 8. AR 8 is unplayable shit for me, for some others it's AR 9, for some 7, and for some 10. I rarely play [Legend] maps because I consider that AR 8@200 BPM dumb.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
if this ever gets implemented, but not bg-deleting, then I will question the mental health of peppy.

AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.

if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.

@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Tanzklaue wrote:

if this ever gets implemented, but not bg-deleting, then I will question the mental health of peppy.

AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.

if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.

@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
This is basically what I've been trying to say.

Also I feel that the AR has HUGE impact on my ability to play, go and look up an mtmcl map and kick the AR up a notch or 2, they're suddenly 200% easier which is bullshit, the reason they're hard is because the patterns are so hard to understand with the low AR.

Reading low AR requires as much skill as high AR. AR9 is the easiest of all AR's for most people so we might as well just change the AR of all maps to 9 regardless of what they mapper thinks and allow people to raise it because let's be frank, AR8 is too hard to read for most people as soon as you get past hard difficulties.

Also posts about supporting this if it awards no points are all rather silly, if you want an un ranked version just change the AR yourself.

To the guy talking about doubletime: doubletime doesn't increase AR to make it more fitting otherwise AR with DT would be capped at 10, 99.99% of players are uncomfortable with AR11 and if I'm correct in saying there are only 2 people to my knowledge who can read ar12 reliably; that means a whopping 0.0000012% of players (rounded) can play AR12 (which is hr + dt and I assure you the AR isn't changed to help you at this point).

So yeah, even though only 1 in eight hundred thousand players can do it, it certainly isn't a skill.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

CaCtus112 wrote:

DontBrownieMir wrote:

You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
^this

Tshemmp wrote:

0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
I like these~
Devochka_old
Devochka_old
Would be good as unranked mod, or a very big minus score modifier
Snepif
1,143 posts
Joined July 2010
Snepif
This is nonsense. AR is a part of the map itself and it's put at a certain number on purpose, the way it flows, plays and feels best with the song. If a map has an AR that it shouldn't, or feels off, it's the job of the modders to fix that. If YOU feel uncomfortable with the AR that fits the best for the modders, XATs and mappers, then you should probably get used to it.

Again, AR is a part of the map.

No support from me, sorry.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
For BMS, O2Jam, speed for note depends on BPM. however, they can adjust it with multipliers. thus "adjustable AR".
jubeat uses same AR for every single difficulty, and song. pretty unique..
DJMax technika and reflecbeat, is pretty much like osu, where scroll speed depends on the difficulty and music.
for example, D2 on technika is hard ONLY because of it's scrolling speed (you can think this as AR10 on regular normal and calling it insane)

Even all other major rhythm games are different.
Considering AR as difficulty or as user's taste doesnt have true answer. If there would to be, maybe other major games would've done it too.

I think this should be decided by ppy since he's the one who created this. If else, it should follow poll's result.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
jubeat <3
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

CaCtus112 wrote:

where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
ctb isn't rhythm based. therefore broken.

also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?

More fun for everyone.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

theowest wrote:

also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?

More fun for everyone.
imo it's like giving the option to use cheats in a video game or not. It's easier, and to some it is more enjoyable, but too much of it will ruin a game. It makes things less interesting, and somewhat unfair. "He can read higher/lower AR than me! It's not fair! Let me choose to make it easier for me!" No, this is just part of skill. If a mapper chooses a bad AR for a map, then that's something to be fixed by modders and XATs, and if not, expect bad feedback from users. This feature should either not be implemented or come with a negative multiplier...
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
dude, all the other rhythm games have it.

you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
bwross
265 posts
Joined December 2009
bwross
And if all the other rhythm games were jumping off cliffs...
Calculus_old
1 post
Joined June 2012
Calculus_old
Oh god yes <3
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

theowest wrote:

dude, all the other rhythm games have it.
osu! isn't "all the other rhythm games." osu! already does many things that the other games do not, which is probably why we have so many users here. Comparing to other games is not much of an argument here because of that.

theowest wrote:

you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
What are you saying?
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
It works in other rhythm games, why shouldn't it work with osu?
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.

I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.

Approach rate has nothing to do with rhythm. This is a rhythm game.

But yes, we have to visually control with our cursor too, but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier. It's all up to you.
Last edited by theowest , edited 2 times in total.
Tenacious J
77 posts
Joined September 2010
Tenacious J
Make it an unranked feature and it'll be fair for everyone.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
It will be fair anyway, since everyone will be able to use it.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

theowest wrote:

It works in other rhythm games, why shouldn't it work with osu?
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.
Honestly is seems that other rhythm games do not put much thought into readability. Because of how our ranking system is and our process here compared to other places, using a mapper-defined AR works better than it would if it was on other games. Of course, it will "work" with osu!, but mapper-defined is much better for all the reasons I have previously said as well as others.

theowest wrote:

I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.
Okay, then how is it unfair to me and not others? Explain more

theowest wrote:

but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.

But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.

theowest wrote:

but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.
So that it is easy for everyone. Not just the ones who's good at that AR. It's the rhythmic skill and precision which counts in the end.
Last edited by theowest , edited 1 time in total.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

theowest wrote:

It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.

But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone happy.
I know it was an example, but I wanted a specific case on where it would be unfair to just one person.

AR is part of skill, you should not be able to change it without some kind of negative effect. It's like being able to customize the speed of the song, not everybody can move their fingers that fast, but for some people its easier if its faster, just like AR. "So lets let it be customizable, so that -everyone- will be able to pick their preferred speed, right? It's not fair because some people are good at that BPM!" No, if it's part of skill, it should not be changeable without a negative multiplier - just like Spun Out Mod and HT. It doesn't matter if its subjective, thats why it will be a choice to use the mod or not.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.

The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.

BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.

It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

theowest wrote:

The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.

The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.

AR checks are done through modding - just like note density - to insure it is not completely unreadable.

theowest wrote:

BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.

It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

Makar wrote:

theowest wrote:

The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.

The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.

AR checks are done through modding - just like note density - to insure it is not completely unreadable.

theowest wrote:

BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.

It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)
They don't know what's best for everyone. Even if they mod, there will still be people not agreeing. There are always beatmaps with ARs people don't agree with. If everyone could pick their own AR, everyone would have that advantage. Everyone will be happy. No matter how you play, it will always be fair this way. Because everyone picked their own AR they prefer to play with. Playing with Half time WILL make it easier. ANY map, for EVERYONE. Playing with doubletime WILL make it harder, for EVERYONE. Playing with hidden, hardrock, flashlight, will make it harder. The easy mod in this situation is one fucked up mod, so let's not talk about that for now.
Everyone can agree on the OD, HP drain rate, BPM, circle size, spacing, etc. That's what the modding is all about. Making sure it's okay enough to get ranked. To match the difficulty you are trying to map. But AR? That shit is subjective as fuck. Learning to play with AR9 + hardrock was a separate experience for me. osu! is about rhythm and precision. Not about how fast you can read notes.

osu! is rated E, for everyone.
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