can i use my votes to take away 2 votes from this
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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option
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Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~rickyboi wrote:
Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
.
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
.Sorry but AR is something set by the mapper, this is A LOT more important to a map than a SB is and as such I think it should be left alone. Some maps would be made insanely easy with higher AR's which is completely unfair to older players.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
I also think it would be refreshing if we could throw away the whole "unfair to old plays" attitude and objectively consider possible improvements, but that is a hard fence to jump.
This is a great and a terrible thing, I wouldn't mind having some things changed but this is certainly one of the things I can see taking the charm out of a lot of maps.
mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
fair enough, but I'd like to see it off for older maps.RBRat3 wrote:
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.RBRat3 wrote:
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
theowest wrote:
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.RBRat3 wrote:
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
Having it go into effect for all will murder old scores and its unfair to those who earned them...
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Having it the way I just proposed would make everyone happy
-Oldhats keep their scores
-You get your feature
-Mappers can force AR Rate or keep it open by choice
-You can have an older beatmap AR opt-able upon request with a fresh score slate
Guys you're going in circles...
Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.
Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.
Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.
Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.
Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.
Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.
Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.
Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.
Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
"I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation." Meaning old maps and their scores go untouched and the feature locked out to its creator.Sakura wrote:
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
I dont think its so bad seeing 2 difficulties
Normal open AR
Normal Fixed AR
The ability to read different approach rates is currently a required skill to become a top-tier osu! player. If everyone could use an approach rate that suited their preference, the game would be cheapened.
9 times out of 10 increasing AR makes it easier, that other 10% of the time only applies to very intense maps. It's unfair plain and simple, AR is a skill just like being able to do jumps, streams and complex patterns, it's part of the map which makes it hard. There is NO WAY to make this fair at all so the best option would be to leave it off. I don't think there is a single person here he can read every approach rate from 1 to 12. This kind of thing would make some DT scores completely pointless, look at mezame and bamboo dance for instance, niko-'s AR11 scores on those are hard due to the approach rate. Add this and AR11 scores will become completely irrelevant and I personally enjoy praising our asian overlords who manage AR11 FC's.Sakura wrote:
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
Yeah, I know... I'd like to use it for decreases too. I've such a strong association with AR9 maps being whack-a-moleish that I regularly misjudge AR9 used appropriately as AR8 (and conversely, I have mistaken AR8 for AR9 when a map has very limited look ahead). I'd love to be able to tune those maps down to a level that actually makes it easier to see the patterns and learn the map. Trying to recognize patterns when you can only see a couple circles ahead is like trying to do it with flashlight on... you need to put things together in your head to see the picture, because it's never fully shown to you. And that's a lot more thinking and memorizing than I like to do while playing, because I'm only a casual player. I'd much rather be able to easily play a map at a lower AR to learn it at a penalty, then move on to the regular AR if I care for full points later... much the same way that I can practice a map without FL to learn it, and then try it with FL later for more points. One is applying blinders with space and the other with time.MillhioreF wrote:
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~
I think it's safe to say that for everyone, there exists some maps that would be made easier by changing AR. Those maps will differ from person to person, and to the extent that AR is changed. This is true for most people even with AR only increasing (HR helped me even as a beginner to pass maps I would have had a hard time doing otherwise, and the main thing I was looking for was higher AR for a cleaner map, which would more than make up for any extra difficulty increase in the other factors). It can also be said that decreasing AR will at the very least make things easier for many people on some maps.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).
Increasing helps people that have trained to react quickly, decreasing helps people that want more look ahead to read maps. These are two different skills, and both should probably be rewarded to some extent. Personally, I'd steer away from making preferences favour reaction time more than things currently do. That moves things further to becoming a twitch game and less of a music game.
Yeah, I don't see why either.Aqo wrote:
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?
"but hard rock makes notes smaller cri cri cri." tough shit, you want your map to have a more readable approach rate you should deal with the map being harder (you even get a higher multiplier).
"but easy mod makes the AR too low!" but everything is easier, bigger notes, lower od and lower AR! can't do lower approach rate? tough shit!
"but hard rock makes notes smaller cri cri cri." tough shit, you want your map to have a more readable approach rate you should deal with the map being harder (you even get a higher multiplier).
"but easy mod makes the AR too low!" but everything is easier, bigger notes, lower od and lower AR! can't do lower approach rate? tough shit!
Now that i think of it, someone mentioned in here that the rate arrows/blocks/whatever fall/raise in those other rythm games was the equivalent to the AR in osu!, however that rate is also increased/decreased with BPM and works as a way of a multiplier, if AR is going to be compared with that, then it should be compared with BPM/Slider Vel as well, and mappers already set an AR that fits with the map's speed, i'd think if green lines modifying Speed could affect them would make the AR basically the same as those games.
But it doesnt work that way... so the analogy doesn't work.
But it doesnt work that way... so the analogy doesn't work.
Except Hard rock makes some maps actually easier due to the increase in ARjesus1412 wrote:
Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?
you know, if we are gonna go through with this, this should seriously probably go along with the "Easy Mode" mod discussion, where people have discussed the possibility of being able to adjust OD, AR, and HP to a certain extent. Easy Mode kinda does need some reworking anyways.
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
Wow... this is the first post i see from you I consider stupid.theowest wrote:
Current Priority: +265Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
Anyway ... I have no problems at all if this has a negative factor on score. It doesn't have to be a huge jump like HT and NoFail (0,3x and 0,5x). Maybe somthing to 0,8 or 0,9x.
I can understand both sides... even though I am technicly on the contra side. (Only compromise is this reducing score multiplier for me
)People who use it to increase it are people who are better on high AR which means they have a advantage which is unfair ... I already see counter arguments for this one
But if they get an advantage why not give everyone an advantage by being able to de/increasing high AR?I really don't understand this "only being able to increase it" part.
But anyways ... I see it coming that most people vote for "Yes" orz
Whatever you do, please let us pick any lower AR too, not just higher. You can already pick higher with HR (altho it's limited in not being able to pick 9 on a map with 8, or anything above 10 without DT, so hopefully this will be addressed). Lower is problematic because EasyMod doesn't let you pick the range you want and there's a huge leap between 8>7>6>5>4.
[Edit] Gonna point this out again because not enough people seemed to have noticed it or it's just being ignored: (and those who noticed it agree so lets hear the others too)
Do you have any argument against letting users pick any AR for any map with a score reduction?
People who want to play with unique AR: can do it freely with no limitations, but can't use it to score against people who used default AR; because if you're picking a different AR it's most likely easier for you, and even if you're doing it to challenge yourself you won't care for score.
People who have to pass the challenge of map default AR: can score normally for 100% without suffering penalty of changed-AR, so they will always rank higher.
It's win-win. Nobody loses anything, everybody gets what they want.
[Edit] Gonna point this out again because not enough people seemed to have noticed it or it's just being ignored: (and those who noticed it agree so lets hear the others too)
Do you have any argument against letting users pick any AR for any map with a score reduction?
People who want to play with unique AR: can do it freely with no limitations, but can't use it to score against people who used default AR; because if you're picking a different AR it's most likely easier for you, and even if you're doing it to challenge yourself you won't care for score.
People who have to pass the challenge of map default AR: can score normally for 100% without suffering penalty of changed-AR, so they will always rank higher.
It's win-win. Nobody loses anything, everybody gets what they want.
People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
would be to easy and also there is no advantage for people who want a great rank easilyMakar wrote:
People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
Got no problem with this, as long as it can be done on a per-map basis, because I'd probably want to go with whatever AR the mapper chose most of the time. This would be nice for those maps where the AR really should have been a notch higher or lower, though.
I don't play competitively in any capacity or care about my stats, so I have no opinion on the score change issue.
I don't play competitively in any capacity or care about my stats, so I have no opinion on the score change issue.
Kyou-kun wrote:
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
With a score reduction (50-70% loss..?), I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented. Just have a slider at the mods page for AR that drops the score multiplier as soon as you touch it.
Shut up and take my star!
Good idea, i can't wait for playing with higher AR 
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
I don't know how this works in CTB but in Standard lower AR would make those two maps even harder than they are now lolCaCtus112 wrote:
everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
if score is reduced there would be no problem either way
big black is unf*ckable even with AR8 or 9, I checked...CaCtus112 wrote:
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
All I'm going to say is even while I WOULD LIKE THIS since IT WOULD BENEFIT ME since I suck@low AR, this will completely fuck up the actual ranking system. So if you are seriously gonna think about adding this, start getting ideas about how this change should be applied so it will not fuck everything up. Remember how AR limits many maps to not being DT'd by pretty much anyone, same applies to DT+HR (unplayable almost for everyone on every AR 7/8 map). Then you got some dumb maps which have as extra difficulty the fact they use AR 8 (masterpiece, [Legend] series, etc).
If you do change this, think about how everything will get completely screwed up, and if this change is applied, you should get a penalty big enough so reducing AR for DT+HR or even for DT alone would make no sense. I'd say the penalty should be applied IF YOU LOWER THE AR AND NOT IF YOU RISE IT, but that's probably a matter of preference. The real issue is the fact that HR+DT combo will become doable on many maps, and DT will be doable on some maps where the real difficulty is AR 9 DT.
Won't read the whole thread since it's stupidly long and I don't care enough to do it.
If you do change this, think about how everything will get completely screwed up, and if this change is applied, you should get a penalty big enough so reducing AR for DT+HR or even for DT alone would make no sense. I'd say the penalty should be applied IF YOU LOWER THE AR AND NOT IF YOU RISE IT, but that's probably a matter of preference. The real issue is the fact that HR+DT combo will become doable on many maps, and DT will be doable on some maps where the real difficulty is AR 9 DT.
Won't read the whole thread since it's stupidly long and I don't care enough to do it.
I think user-defineable AR should be allowed, without penalty. I'm a regular player of Flash Flash Revolution and a casual player of stepmania, and the speedmod (which is analogous to AR on osu) can be set by the user to any amount without penalty. And nobody even considers or discriminates against other people's speedmods, it doesn't make any player "better" or "worse", everyone just uses what they are comfortable with. I've seen pro players with speedmods of 1.7x speedmod and noob players with a 2.3x speedmod and vice versa, it's just a matter of personal preference.
If changing AR should change the scoring, then perhaps we should give mappers the ability to also tell us which keys to use, which input devices to use, and which skins to use as well.
I don't see how some people are saying that AR isn't analogous to other speed/scroll settings in other games. One would keep raising it to the point until you can actually differentiate the notes and have a firm grasp of what's going on in terms of pattern recognition (having it too low will just make it look like a blob of notes all on the screen at once with a million approach circles at the same time). You stop raising it when you notice you aren't getting enough time to react and/or you lose that sense of pattern recognition again. Basically higher scroll rates and AR give you more spacing in between notes (easier readability) and lower scroll rates and AR give you more reaction time. It's up to the person themselves to find the middle ground that works for them and this middle ground is going to be different for each person.
I kinda glanced through some of the previous pages of the thread and noticed someone saying how Airman is impossible on AR9. As for me, I can almost pass it on AR9 (I still fail in the ending jumps) but I can't even get past the first minute of it with AR10. Although AR8 on Airman is too clustered and unreadable for me to do well at all. Allowing changing AR would let everyone play it at the speed at which they feel comfortable.
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
As for hardrock, I'd just say make it simple by making a 0+ change to AR when hardrock is selected. Hardrock is supposed to make the song harder, in an objective as possible sense, and since increasing AR is an aid to some people, it defeats the purpose of this mod.
If changing AR should change the scoring, then perhaps we should give mappers the ability to also tell us which keys to use, which input devices to use, and which skins to use as well.
I don't see how some people are saying that AR isn't analogous to other speed/scroll settings in other games. One would keep raising it to the point until you can actually differentiate the notes and have a firm grasp of what's going on in terms of pattern recognition (having it too low will just make it look like a blob of notes all on the screen at once with a million approach circles at the same time). You stop raising it when you notice you aren't getting enough time to react and/or you lose that sense of pattern recognition again. Basically higher scroll rates and AR give you more spacing in between notes (easier readability) and lower scroll rates and AR give you more reaction time. It's up to the person themselves to find the middle ground that works for them and this middle ground is going to be different for each person.
I kinda glanced through some of the previous pages of the thread and noticed someone saying how Airman is impossible on AR9. As for me, I can almost pass it on AR9 (I still fail in the ending jumps) but I can't even get past the first minute of it with AR10. Although AR8 on Airman is too clustered and unreadable for me to do well at all. Allowing changing AR would let everyone play it at the speed at which they feel comfortable.
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
As for hardrock, I'd just say make it simple by making a 0+ change to AR when hardrock is selected. Hardrock is supposed to make the song harder, in an objective as possible sense, and since increasing AR is an aid to some people, it defeats the purpose of this mod.
The reason why the approach rate increases by 1.5x and the reason why you have 2/3 the timing window to hit circles accurately is because everything time-related is multiplied by 1.5. Not because of what you said.benguin wrote:
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
Reading confusing patterns with low approach rate is a part of the difficulty in osu!.
Gomo Psivarh wrote:
I ONLY support that you can customize AR and the custom AR will neutralize score bonus from mods.
DontTalkwithMir
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I think, I'll support if we can customize the AR and circle size at the same time, it'll be more fun like this :<
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.