0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
CaCtus112 wrote:
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
This is basically what I've been trying to say.Tanzklaue wrote:
if this ever gets implemented, but not bg-deleting, then I will question the mental health of peppy.
AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.
if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.
@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
CaCtus112 wrote:
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I like these~Tshemmp wrote:
0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
ctb isn't rhythm based. therefore broken.CaCtus112 wrote:
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
imo it's like giving the option to use cheats in a video game or not. It's easier, and to some it is more enjoyable, but too much of it will ruin a game. It makes things less interesting, and somewhat unfair. "He can read higher/lower AR than me! It's not fair! Let me choose to make it easier for me!" No, this is just part of skill. If a mapper chooses a bad AR for a map, then that's something to be fixed by modders and XATs, and if not, expect bad feedback from users. This feature should either not be implemented or come with a negative multiplier...theowest wrote:
also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?
More fun for everyone.
osu! isn't "all the other rhythm games." osu! already does many things that the other games do not, which is probably why we have so many users here. Comparing to other games is not much of an argument here because of that.theowest wrote:
dude, all the other rhythm games have it.
What are you saying?theowest wrote:
you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
Honestly is seems that other rhythm games do not put much thought into readability. Because of how our ranking system is and our process here compared to other places, using a mapper-defined AR works better than it would if it was on other games. Of course, it will "work" with osu!, but mapper-defined is much better for all the reasons I have previously said as well as others.theowest wrote:
It works in other rhythm games, why shouldn't it work with osu?
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.
Okay, then how is it unfair to me and not others? Explain moretheowest wrote:
I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.
Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.theowest wrote:
but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
So that it is easy for everyone. Not just the ones who's good at that AR. It's the rhythmic skill and precision which counts in the end.Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.theowest wrote:
but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
I know it was an example, but I wanted a specific case on where it would be unfair to just one person.theowest wrote:
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone happy.
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
They don't know what's best for everyone. Even if they mod, there will still be people not agreeing. There are always beatmaps with ARs people don't agree with. If everyone could pick their own AR, everyone would have that advantage. Everyone will be happy. No matter how you play, it will always be fair this way. Because everyone picked their own AR they prefer to play with. Playing with Half time WILL make it easier. ANY map, for EVERYONE. Playing with doubletime WILL make it harder, for EVERYONE. Playing with hidden, hardrock, flashlight, will make it harder. The easy mod in this situation is one fucked up mod, so let's not talk about that for now.Makar wrote:
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
AR checks are done through modding - just like note density - to insure it is not completely unreadable.How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
Good. Then we're agreed that Hidden and Flashlight should be worth 1.00x, because they change none of those things. Same BPM, same sliders, same distances, same OD, same drain, and the same circle size. And just like AR, once you've memorized a map, you can play it AR13, Hidden, and Flashlight with no difference from playing it any other way... because none of these things change the map in a way that makes it easier or harder, or even different. All three do exactly the same thing... control the flow of information, but not alter it. Which is a good reason to be wary of just making AR a preference... the same sort of thing is rewarded elsewhere, and things that get score rewards are considered "skill". This is not a trivial choice to make and has to be done right.theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.theowest wrote:
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
And this is why it was split from OD, before the AR a map would have would be equivalent to it's OD.haha5957 wrote:
However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
mm201 wrote:
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.Matty wrote:
If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
well said. We're trying to entertain everyone here, right? You want to be able to play a map without having to be annoyed by the one thing most people are annoyed by. The AR. Today, most of the beatmaps have a good AR but there are always some beatmaps with shitty ARs.awp wrote:
Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
Pretty much, but since everyone who makes maps doesn't know what the player wants, beatmaps will become confusing clusterfucks.mm201 wrote:
AR depends on the mapping. Taking a high AR map and lowering it will turn it into a confusing clusterfuck. Another map could be designed for the low AR, have no overlaps, have readable spacing, and work just fine.
A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.This is a skill they should develop. inb4 extreme case shit where maps not designed for low AR get their AR changed.Shael wrote:
it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9
Looks like someone have played other rhythm games. Why don't you all try the idea before you hate it? Have you guys seriously played another rhythm game with user definable ARs? Try it. See for yourself. That's what made me change my opinion on things.rickyboi wrote:
I like this idea because of all the rythm games I've played. Osu is the only one that has no adjustments for speed readings.
As Lybydose points out, the ship has already sailed for just simply allowing it as a preference now. Two of the plus mods are the same thing as AR in a different wrapper, and the other two alter it. AR is fundamentally tied to the things that give more points and thus get recognition as "skill". Which is why you can expect things like AR only to be able to be increased (as peppy brought forward) if it's just a simple preference people can set... that would help protect the value of HR, because otherwise it would be largely cancelled out for so many maps that it wouldn't be worth any bonus (even where it might still apply). This makes things more like what Henry Ford said about the Model T, "you can have any colour you want, so long as it's black". There might not be a real choice for everyone, and that would be unfair by your own reasoning.theowest wrote:
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
Actually, in this case, it's better to look at it in the way Sakura did. Most people who simply said "No" will be okay if it was negative, but would just prefer it not being implemented at all, and vice versa.theowest wrote:
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.theowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
Zarerion wrote:
Uhm...
This is seriously being discussed?
"I can't do this, because it's too hard and I'm too lazy to practice, make it easier!!"
I mean, what the fuck? This whole idea is ridicolous, it would totally destroy the whole osu!-gameplay.
Airman and bigblack with AR8 would be horrible and unreadable. Hell yeah, agrees.Makar wrote:
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.
I just saw this and it made me scratch my head. what the hell is this statementtheowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well.