I do agree with pepz, by only being able to increase and not decrease the AR.
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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option
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Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.
If you just added this with a score-reducing factor with no limitation on AR range it would be muuuuch better imo. That way you don't hurt current rankings (nobody would complain that suddenly people get rank for free on AR8 maps because they could increase it, or anything of that sort, because your score would be penalized) and at the same time people who want to change AR (which is usually people who only play for fun and don't care for rank anyway) would be able to do it freely with no limitations without throwing off the balance of osu!'s competitive aspect. I'm sure players like Millhiore would enjoy being able to set AR to lower amounts and it would open a ton of fun play possibilities (that are /harder/ because of the lower AR), without hurting anybody else who's not interested in playing like that.
(either way, it would be great if you finally allowed players to pick ARs higher than 10 without DT. Preferably with 1/3 increments, since 1AR = 150ms difference, 1/3 would be 50ms. In anything post-AR10 that 50ms makes a large difference)
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.
If you just added this with a score-reducing factor with no limitation on AR range it would be muuuuch better imo. That way you don't hurt current rankings (nobody would complain that suddenly people get rank for free on AR8 maps because they could increase it, or anything of that sort, because your score would be penalized) and at the same time people who want to change AR (which is usually people who only play for fun and don't care for rank anyway) would be able to do it freely with no limitations without throwing off the balance of osu!'s competitive aspect. I'm sure players like Millhiore would enjoy being able to set AR to lower amounts and it would open a ton of fun play possibilities (that are /harder/ because of the lower AR), without hurting anybody else who's not interested in playing like that.
(either way, it would be great if you finally allowed players to pick ARs higher than 10 without DT. Preferably with 1/3 increments, since 1AR = 150ms difference, 1/3 would be 50ms. In anything post-AR10 that 50ms makes a large difference)
honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.
no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Lets say I'm in the mood to play a random map that I like with AR10.3 today, without aiming to rank on it in the scoreboard - it would still add into playcount and account statistics ofc i.e. score reduction effect. (and if I wanted to rank on it for max score, I'd have to play it with the default map AR).winber1 wrote:
honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.
no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Does this hurt you in any way? why do you oppose this?
Isn't it a win-win situation to give players more features without taking away existing game behavior? What do you have against this
afaik the only argument against letting players pick their AR when playing is that either lower or higher AR can lead to scores that are otherwise too-hard to get, making it unfair for players who previously weren't able to get those scores without adjusting their AR. Since this is the only problem, the obvious solution is to make it so that you can't get better scores by changing the AR, and then everything stays fair. Do you have any other argument against this?
Please. Please please please please please please please please please please please
Exactly my thoughts.winber1 wrote:
honestly I still don't like allowing people to change AR. It should be what it is. However, I am more comfortable if players are only allowed to increase the AR (for a certain price) if this gets implemented, but I'm still saying no. no. no. no. no.
no.... no. on.no.on.no.on.no
Being able to change the AR just feels wrong.
increasing only sounds interesting, but seriously, who would increase AR9 to AR10? (except for people like Aqo, but oh well..)
AR10 breaks the flow of the map in most maps below 200~ BPM, which is why it's never used.
And for most players, AR7 is not very different from AR8 oder 9 gameplay-wise, so no real need for doing that...
I could live with it if would really reduce score, but I would probably never use it ._."
Layne_old_1
Yeah, it just doesn't seem right to shift the power even more to the mole whackers and away from the map readers by allowing them to turn any map into whack-a-mole and not allowing the same to be true for people that want to do the reverse (and really, it's only a small number of maps that push their AR too high and result in a map where it feels like you're spending half your time waiting for the next hit circle to pop up so you can whack it (as opposed to the mole whacker aggravation of feeling like they're spending half their time waiting for approach circles to close)).Aqo wrote:
It's actually kinda funny that you say only increasing the AR would keep its difficulty.
If you could do that, ranked, most people would increase the AR of all AR8 maps to 9 and it would make them 20 times easier to play, meanwhile the option to decrease AR to 7 would've potentially made those same maps way harder.
The whether the player is increasing or decreasing the AR, since the program can't really judge the effect on difficulty, for game balance you have to assume that the map has been made considerably easier regardless of setting (even if they're intentionally making it hard on themselves... the program can't know that unless it's made to be able to judge difficulty accurately, and that's extra tricky because difficulty is somewhat subjective). Which is why I think if it is allowed, it should be allowed in either direction (because either way can be easier or harder, there isn't a difference in allowing one or the other), and with a score penalty.
Support, but I prefer to limit the define setting to AR+1 or AR+2,
so that in easy or normal maps, you can't go AR9 in a difficulty with an AR3, but you can adjust it to AR4 or AR5.
so that in easy or normal maps, you can't go AR9 in a difficulty with an AR3, but you can adjust it to AR4 or AR5.
Current Priority: +265Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
slow AR's harder to read anyway :3
support
support
Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
i'm fine with the fixed AR because some maps look ugly with fast/slow AR.the mapper picked that certain AR because he/she thinks it's the best AR for his/her map (imo)
Meh I think it should decrease score since it makes it easier for a lot of people.
As I said before, if it makes it easier, it should decrease score. If it doesn't make it easier for everybody, then the people who don't get anything from it will be at a disadvantage (and no, please don't allow AR to be lowered; either way it should decrease score since its a difficulty decreasing effect)
As I said before, if it makes it easier, it should decrease score. If it doesn't make it easier for everybody, then the people who don't get anything from it will be at a disadvantage (and no, please don't allow AR to be lowered; either way it should decrease score since its a difficulty decreasing effect)
can i use my votes to take away 2 votes from this
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~rickyboi wrote:
Only increasing the AR? That's fine I guess, but this only gives advantage to the players who are good with high AR. The ones who can play or likes (eg. val0108 or CXu) to play AR 8/7/6 or even lower has the disadvantage here. This again limiting the potential of different kinds of players god damn it.
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
.
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
.Sorry but AR is something set by the mapper, this is A LOT more important to a map than a SB is and as such I think it should be left alone. Some maps would be made insanely easy with higher AR's which is completely unfair to older players.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
I also think it would be refreshing if we could throw away the whole "unfair to old plays" attitude and objectively consider possible improvements, but that is a hard fence to jump.
This is a great and a terrible thing, I wouldn't mind having some things changed but this is certainly one of the things I can see taking the charm out of a lot of maps.
mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
mtmcl, kirby, djpop, reiken and even blue dragon are some of the most iconic mappers in osu! and they all have used low approach rate in their most impressive maps, it would be sad to see people beating them with high approach rates on their first and second try, it really does effect difficulty a lot more than people realise.
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
fair enough, but I'd like to see it off for older maps.RBRat3 wrote:
What about making AR rate options open or closed to the users based on the mappers choice?
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.RBRat3 wrote:
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
theowest wrote:
nah man. It should be applied on all the maps.RBRat3 wrote:
I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation.
Having it go into effect for all will murder old scores and its unfair to those who earned them...
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Having it the way I just proposed would make everyone happy
-Oldhats keep their scores
-You get your feature
-Mappers can force AR Rate or keep it open by choice
-You can have an older beatmap AR opt-able upon request with a fresh score slate
Guys you're going in circles...
Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.
Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.
Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.
Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.
Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Once again, the only, literally the very single "problem" anybody raised for letting players change the AR on any map ever made to any AR they want on ranked play is that it would make certain plays easier and thus not deserving for the same score as default AR plays.
Solution: give it a score-reducing factor.
Isn't this enough? Why are you looking for other solutions? This is by far the most optimal one.
Only letting users pick higher AR: this is stupid. Reason: once you learn to read a certain AR level, it will ALWAYS be easier for you to play with it, regardless of map bpm. Which means all HR players would only play everything with AR10 and it would make everything much easier for them, and so on.
Like jesse said, a large part of the appeal in AR is actually the added difficulty from lower ARs (forcing you to remember more events ahead). If a feature exists to let users pick any AR they want, it should definitely let users pick lower ARs, because that'd be the most fun part of it.
Only allowing this on new maps: again, bad. Why would you take this freedom away from old maps? really no reason.
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
"I would only expect it to be applied to maps made after the implementation." Meaning old maps and their scores go untouched and the feature locked out to its creator.Sakura wrote:
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
I dont think its so bad seeing 2 difficulties
Normal open AR
Normal Fixed AR
The ability to read different approach rates is currently a required skill to become a top-tier osu! player. If everyone could use an approach rate that suited their preference, the game would be cheapened.
9 times out of 10 increasing AR makes it easier, that other 10% of the time only applies to very intense maps. It's unfair plain and simple, AR is a skill just like being able to do jumps, streams and complex patterns, it's part of the map which makes it hard. There is NO WAY to make this fair at all so the best option would be to leave it off. I don't think there is a single person here he can read every approach rate from 1 to 12. This kind of thing would make some DT scores completely pointless, look at mezame and bamboo dance for instance, niko-'s AR11 scores on those are hard due to the approach rate. Add this and AR11 scores will become completely irrelevant and I personally enjoy praising our asian overlords who manage AR11 FC's.Sakura wrote:
Rather than creating a duplicate map there are some BATs that can make changes to ranked maps, if the mapper wants to enable the AR change option they could ask a BAT to do the change and update the mapset.RBRat3 wrote:
If you or anyone wanted it they could just ask the mapper for an AR opt-able map of the older beatmap that way its a fresh score slate. ( or just copy it yourself with permission and submit it )
Still tho, i prefer just to be able to increase it as i said in my previous post.
Yeah, I know... I'd like to use it for decreases too. I've such a strong association with AR9 maps being whack-a-moleish that I regularly misjudge AR9 used appropriately as AR8 (and conversely, I have mistaken AR8 for AR9 when a map has very limited look ahead). I'd love to be able to tune those maps down to a level that actually makes it easier to see the patterns and learn the map. Trying to recognize patterns when you can only see a couple circles ahead is like trying to do it with flashlight on... you need to put things together in your head to see the picture, because it's never fully shown to you. And that's a lot more thinking and memorizing than I like to do while playing, because I'm only a casual player. I'd much rather be able to easily play a map at a lower AR to learn it at a penalty, then move on to the regular AR if I care for full points later... much the same way that I can practice a map without FL to learn it, and then try it with FL later for more points. One is applying blinders with space and the other with time.MillhioreF wrote:
increase only makes me sad, I do best with ar8... oh well~
I think it's safe to say that for everyone, there exists some maps that would be made easier by changing AR. Those maps will differ from person to person, and to the extent that AR is changed. This is true for most people even with AR only increasing (HR helped me even as a beginner to pass maps I would have had a hard time doing otherwise, and the main thing I was looking for was higher AR for a cleaner map, which would more than make up for any extra difficulty increase in the other factors). It can also be said that decreasing AR will at the very least make things easier for many people on some maps.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).
Increasing helps people that have trained to react quickly, decreasing helps people that want more look ahead to read maps. These are two different skills, and both should probably be rewarded to some extent. Personally, I'd steer away from making preferences favour reaction time more than things currently do. That moves things further to becoming a twitch game and less of a music game.
Yeah, I don't see why either.Aqo wrote:
I still haven't seen anyone here state any reason why to not just let all users pick whatever AR they want for all maps ever with a score reducing effect. It's a win-win solution. Why the hell not? Why are you looking for anything else?
Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?
"but hard rock makes notes smaller cri cri cri." tough shit, you want your map to have a more readable approach rate you should deal with the map being harder (you even get a higher multiplier).
"but easy mod makes the AR too low!" but everything is easier, bigger notes, lower od and lower AR! can't do lower approach rate? tough shit!
"but hard rock makes notes smaller cri cri cri." tough shit, you want your map to have a more readable approach rate you should deal with the map being harder (you even get a higher multiplier).
"but easy mod makes the AR too low!" but everything is easier, bigger notes, lower od and lower AR! can't do lower approach rate? tough shit!
Now that i think of it, someone mentioned in here that the rate arrows/blocks/whatever fall/raise in those other rythm games was the equivalent to the AR in osu!, however that rate is also increased/decreased with BPM and works as a way of a multiplier, if AR is going to be compared with that, then it should be compared with BPM/Slider Vel as well, and mappers already set an AR that fits with the map's speed, i'd think if green lines modifying Speed could affect them would make the AR basically the same as those games.
But it doesnt work that way... so the analogy doesn't work.
But it doesnt work that way... so the analogy doesn't work.
Except Hard rock makes some maps actually easier due to the increase in ARjesus1412 wrote:
Never really thought about this but how about we use hard rock to increase the AR and easy to decrease it? Surely with that everyone is happy?
you know, if we are gonna go through with this, this should seriously probably go along with the "Easy Mode" mod discussion, where people have discussed the possibility of being able to adjust OD, AR, and HP to a certain extent. Easy Mode kinda does need some reworking anyways.
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
Wow... this is the first post i see from you I consider stupid.theowest wrote:
Current Priority: +265Most people think this is a good idea. Most of the people not agreeing with this doesn't even play much osu!
Anyway ... I have no problems at all if this has a negative factor on score. It doesn't have to be a huge jump like HT and NoFail (0,3x and 0,5x). Maybe somthing to 0,8 or 0,9x.
I can understand both sides... even though I am technicly on the contra side. (Only compromise is this reducing score multiplier for me
)People who use it to increase it are people who are better on high AR which means they have a advantage which is unfair ... I already see counter arguments for this one
But if they get an advantage why not give everyone an advantage by being able to de/increasing high AR?I really don't understand this "only being able to increase it" part.
But anyways ... I see it coming that most people vote for "Yes" orz
Whatever you do, please let us pick any lower AR too, not just higher. You can already pick higher with HR (altho it's limited in not being able to pick 9 on a map with 8, or anything above 10 without DT, so hopefully this will be addressed). Lower is problematic because EasyMod doesn't let you pick the range you want and there's a huge leap between 8>7>6>5>4.
[Edit] Gonna point this out again because not enough people seemed to have noticed it or it's just being ignored: (and those who noticed it agree so lets hear the others too)
Do you have any argument against letting users pick any AR for any map with a score reduction?
People who want to play with unique AR: can do it freely with no limitations, but can't use it to score against people who used default AR; because if you're picking a different AR it's most likely easier for you, and even if you're doing it to challenge yourself you won't care for score.
People who have to pass the challenge of map default AR: can score normally for 100% without suffering penalty of changed-AR, so they will always rank higher.
It's win-win. Nobody loses anything, everybody gets what they want.
[Edit] Gonna point this out again because not enough people seemed to have noticed it or it's just being ignored: (and those who noticed it agree so lets hear the others too)
Do you have any argument against letting users pick any AR for any map with a score reduction?
People who want to play with unique AR: can do it freely with no limitations, but can't use it to score against people who used default AR; because if you're picking a different AR it's most likely easier for you, and even if you're doing it to challenge yourself you won't care for score.
People who have to pass the challenge of map default AR: can score normally for 100% without suffering penalty of changed-AR, so they will always rank higher.
It's win-win. Nobody loses anything, everybody gets what they want.
People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
would be to easy and also there is no advantage for people who want a great rank easilyMakar wrote:
People are only saying yes because it will be easier for them to get a higher score.
Why cant this just be a new difficulty reducing mod with a negative multiplier that allows any AR (lower or higher)?
Got no problem with this, as long as it can be done on a per-map basis, because I'd probably want to go with whatever AR the mapper chose most of the time. This would be nice for those maps where the AR really should have been a notch higher or lower, though.
I don't play competitively in any capacity or care about my stats, so I have no opinion on the score change issue.
I don't play competitively in any capacity or care about my stats, so I have no opinion on the score change issue.
Kyou-kun wrote:
These same reasons are used to argue against the osz2 background removal limitation. Just sayin'.peppy wrote:
Consider that if it "only makes it easier for some", then there is probably no reason not to add it. Implying that it only helps some means it is a preference and should likely not be factored into this thing we call skill (aka how-to-get-more-points).</2cents>
Also comparing to other rhythm games, the ability to change approach rate is usually a user setting which has no effect on score. Which is where this request stems from originally
With a score reduction (50-70% loss..?), I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented. Just have a slider at the mods page for AR that drops the score multiplier as soon as you touch it.
Shut up and take my star!
Good idea, i can't wait for playing with higher AR 
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
I don't know how this works in CTB but in Standard lower AR would make those two maps even harder than they are now lolCaCtus112 wrote:
everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
if score is reduced there would be no problem either way
big black is unf*ckable even with AR8 or 9, I checked...CaCtus112 wrote:
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
All I'm going to say is even while I WOULD LIKE THIS since IT WOULD BENEFIT ME since I suck@low AR, this will completely fuck up the actual ranking system. So if you are seriously gonna think about adding this, start getting ideas about how this change should be applied so it will not fuck everything up. Remember how AR limits many maps to not being DT'd by pretty much anyone, same applies to DT+HR (unplayable almost for everyone on every AR 7/8 map). Then you got some dumb maps which have as extra difficulty the fact they use AR 8 (masterpiece, [Legend] series, etc).
If you do change this, think about how everything will get completely screwed up, and if this change is applied, you should get a penalty big enough so reducing AR for DT+HR or even for DT alone would make no sense. I'd say the penalty should be applied IF YOU LOWER THE AR AND NOT IF YOU RISE IT, but that's probably a matter of preference. The real issue is the fact that HR+DT combo will become doable on many maps, and DT will be doable on some maps where the real difficulty is AR 9 DT.
Won't read the whole thread since it's stupidly long and I don't care enough to do it.
If you do change this, think about how everything will get completely screwed up, and if this change is applied, you should get a penalty big enough so reducing AR for DT+HR or even for DT alone would make no sense. I'd say the penalty should be applied IF YOU LOWER THE AR AND NOT IF YOU RISE IT, but that's probably a matter of preference. The real issue is the fact that HR+DT combo will become doable on many maps, and DT will be doable on some maps where the real difficulty is AR 9 DT.
Won't read the whole thread since it's stupidly long and I don't care enough to do it.
I think user-defineable AR should be allowed, without penalty. I'm a regular player of Flash Flash Revolution and a casual player of stepmania, and the speedmod (which is analogous to AR on osu) can be set by the user to any amount without penalty. And nobody even considers or discriminates against other people's speedmods, it doesn't make any player "better" or "worse", everyone just uses what they are comfortable with. I've seen pro players with speedmods of 1.7x speedmod and noob players with a 2.3x speedmod and vice versa, it's just a matter of personal preference.
If changing AR should change the scoring, then perhaps we should give mappers the ability to also tell us which keys to use, which input devices to use, and which skins to use as well.
I don't see how some people are saying that AR isn't analogous to other speed/scroll settings in other games. One would keep raising it to the point until you can actually differentiate the notes and have a firm grasp of what's going on in terms of pattern recognition (having it too low will just make it look like a blob of notes all on the screen at once with a million approach circles at the same time). You stop raising it when you notice you aren't getting enough time to react and/or you lose that sense of pattern recognition again. Basically higher scroll rates and AR give you more spacing in between notes (easier readability) and lower scroll rates and AR give you more reaction time. It's up to the person themselves to find the middle ground that works for them and this middle ground is going to be different for each person.
I kinda glanced through some of the previous pages of the thread and noticed someone saying how Airman is impossible on AR9. As for me, I can almost pass it on AR9 (I still fail in the ending jumps) but I can't even get past the first minute of it with AR10. Although AR8 on Airman is too clustered and unreadable for me to do well at all. Allowing changing AR would let everyone play it at the speed at which they feel comfortable.
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
As for hardrock, I'd just say make it simple by making a 0+ change to AR when hardrock is selected. Hardrock is supposed to make the song harder, in an objective as possible sense, and since increasing AR is an aid to some people, it defeats the purpose of this mod.
If changing AR should change the scoring, then perhaps we should give mappers the ability to also tell us which keys to use, which input devices to use, and which skins to use as well.
I don't see how some people are saying that AR isn't analogous to other speed/scroll settings in other games. One would keep raising it to the point until you can actually differentiate the notes and have a firm grasp of what's going on in terms of pattern recognition (having it too low will just make it look like a blob of notes all on the screen at once with a million approach circles at the same time). You stop raising it when you notice you aren't getting enough time to react and/or you lose that sense of pattern recognition again. Basically higher scroll rates and AR give you more spacing in between notes (easier readability) and lower scroll rates and AR give you more reaction time. It's up to the person themselves to find the middle ground that works for them and this middle ground is going to be different for each person.
I kinda glanced through some of the previous pages of the thread and noticed someone saying how Airman is impossible on AR9. As for me, I can almost pass it on AR9 (I still fail in the ending jumps) but I can't even get past the first minute of it with AR10. Although AR8 on Airman is too clustered and unreadable for me to do well at all. Allowing changing AR would let everyone play it at the speed at which they feel comfortable.
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
As for hardrock, I'd just say make it simple by making a 0+ change to AR when hardrock is selected. Hardrock is supposed to make the song harder, in an objective as possible sense, and since increasing AR is an aid to some people, it defeats the purpose of this mod.
The reason why the approach rate increases by 1.5x and the reason why you have 2/3 the timing window to hit circles accurately is because everything time-related is multiplied by 1.5. Not because of what you said.benguin wrote:
As for complications with other mods. I'm sure flashlight and hidden might have to be tweaked a bit but I don't see much concern there. For doubletime, the reason why the approach rate increases for doubletime is to accommodate for the change of the speed of the map since higher bpm maps are typically a bit easier on a slightly faster AR (like I wouldn't dare play an [easy] map with AR9). The logic is that if a map is at x AR, then it would be optimal for most players to have the AR at ax+b to accommodate for the increase in bpm from doubletime (I don't know the a and b values, or even if it's a linear function or w/e so sorry >.<) This only works though if the original AR is optimal for each particular player which it isn't. Basically what I'm trying to say, is that if you can change the AR of the map with no mods, you should be able to do the same for the DT mod. Also, the mod is called is called "double time", not "double time plus additinoal AR." The extra AR that's added, is there to accommodate for the faster chart, but with user-defineable AR, people can figure that out for themselves.
Reading confusing patterns with low approach rate is a part of the difficulty in osu!.
Gomo Psivarh wrote:
I ONLY support that you can customize AR and the custom AR will neutralize score bonus from mods.
DontTalkwithMir
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I think, I'll support if we can customize the AR and circle size at the same time, it'll be more fun like this :<
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
My thoughts exactly. Though I would like to use this kind of feature for song training or simply for fun. There are certain songs that either go over the top or is too slow for my taste. But for fairness' sake this should be an UNRANKABLE feature, because we already have Mods that alter AR.DontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
CaCtus112 wrote:
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
*sigh*
While AR does add difficulty to maps, people really overestimate how much of an effect it has. I'd like to see all those people who think AR10 is too much for airman try to play it with AR9 (just go into Edit and change the map) and then see their surprised faces when they still fail at 200bpm fullscreen jumps and it's absolutely not related to reading the AR. Alternatively, people playing maps with "too low" AR and realizing that having the correct timing for long circle-jump patterns on high bpm is still challenging even if you're reading it in a comfortable AR.
A small score reduction would be enough. Or hell, it can be 50% like EasyMod. Nobody who has trouble FCing a dragonforce [Legend] map would suddenly be able to do it with AR9 instead of 8, and nobody who has trouble playing AR9+DT would suddenly get better at it by setting AR to 8+DT, because the physical difficulty for those plays is always ten notches higher than the reading difficulty.
Right now HR+DT on a map with AR7 or higher (which results in AR11 ala. 300ms) is indeed next to impossible for most people and would become possible if you could lower the AR, however if there was a 50% reduction for this then lol, it would far outweigh the benefit of +6% score from HR and a simple DT record (instead of HR+DT+ARmod) would still always rank higher, so there's no problem.
While AR does add difficulty to maps, people really overestimate how much of an effect it has. I'd like to see all those people who think AR10 is too much for airman try to play it with AR9 (just go into Edit and change the map) and then see their surprised faces when they still fail at 200bpm fullscreen jumps and it's absolutely not related to reading the AR. Alternatively, people playing maps with "too low" AR and realizing that having the correct timing for long circle-jump patterns on high bpm is still challenging even if you're reading it in a comfortable AR.
A small score reduction would be enough. Or hell, it can be 50% like EasyMod. Nobody who has trouble FCing a dragonforce [Legend] map would suddenly be able to do it with AR9 instead of 8, and nobody who has trouble playing AR9+DT would suddenly get better at it by setting AR to 8+DT, because the physical difficulty for those plays is always ten notches higher than the reading difficulty.
Right now HR+DT on a map with AR7 or higher (which results in AR11 ala. 300ms) is indeed next to impossible for most people and would become possible if you could lower the AR, however if there was a 50% reduction for this then lol, it would far outweigh the benefit of +6% score from HR and a simple DT record (instead of HR+DT+ARmod) would still always rank higher, so there's no problem.
Actually yeah, AR 8 is shit and makes many maps really harder than they would be with AR 9. I FC'd masterpiece squares first try on AR 9, but I've never been able to do them (and I can barely clear them) on AR 8. AR 8 is unplayable shit for me, for some others it's AR 9, for some 7, and for some 10. I rarely play [Legend] maps because I consider that AR 8@200 BPM dumb.
if this ever gets implemented, but not bg-deleting, then I will question the mental health of peppy.
AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.
if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.
@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.
if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.
@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
This is basically what I've been trying to say.Tanzklaue wrote:
if this ever gets implemented, but not bg-deleting, then I will question the mental health of peppy.
AR is a part of the map, not like some random BG, which everybody makes a fuss about. the mapper and modder try to find an AR for every map that fits. making it defineable would destroy the purpose of the mapper.
if it gets implemented, then only as a fun-mod, which goes up really high or down really low. never as a ranked mod. that would be, like some people said, legimate cheating.
@Aqo there are enough people who can't read AR 10 but could clear airman with AR 9. the average osu-player is able to read AR 7-9, but not 10. people like you who have serious problems with anything below AR9 are the exception.
Also I feel that the AR has HUGE impact on my ability to play, go and look up an mtmcl map and kick the AR up a notch or 2, they're suddenly 200% easier which is bullshit, the reason they're hard is because the patterns are so hard to understand with the low AR.
Reading low AR requires as much skill as high AR. AR9 is the easiest of all AR's for most people so we might as well just change the AR of all maps to 9 regardless of what they mapper thinks and allow people to raise it because let's be frank, AR8 is too hard to read for most people as soon as you get past hard difficulties.
Also posts about supporting this if it awards no points are all rather silly, if you want an un ranked version just change the AR yourself.
To the guy talking about doubletime: doubletime doesn't increase AR to make it more fitting otherwise AR with DT would be capped at 10, 99.99% of players are uncomfortable with AR11 and if I'm correct in saying there are only 2 people to my knowledge who can read ar12 reliably; that means a whopping 0.0000012% of players (rounded) can play AR12 (which is hr + dt and I assure you the AR isn't changed to help you at this point).
So yeah, even though only 1 in eight hundred thousand players can do it, it certainly isn't a skill.
CaCtus112 wrote:
^thisDontBrownieMir wrote:
You guys are for real?
I mean..changing the AR is like a free ticked for "legit" cheaters :-/.
It would flood score rankings like Halftime.
This isn't skill...it's just "how to make this game easy".
I mean..if someone can't play AR8~9~10 yet then he has to improve him/herself to play it.
The only good thing with this AR option would be no score at all like Spunout was or autopilot or relax are.
I like these~Tshemmp wrote:
0,9x score multiplier for each instance of changed AR seems fine to me. This means if you change the AR by 2 (up or down, doesn't matter) the score multiplier would be 0,9x * 0,9x = 0,81x.
This is nonsense. AR is a part of the map itself and it's put at a certain number on purpose, the way it flows, plays and feels best with the song. If a map has an AR that it shouldn't, or feels off, it's the job of the modders to fix that. If YOU feel uncomfortable with the AR that fits the best for the modders, XATs and mappers, then you should probably get used to it.
Again, AR is a part of the map.
No support from me, sorry.
Again, AR is a part of the map.
No support from me, sorry.
For BMS, O2Jam, speed for note depends on BPM. however, they can adjust it with multipliers. thus "adjustable AR".
jubeat uses same AR for every single difficulty, and song. pretty unique..
DJMax technika and reflecbeat, is pretty much like osu, where scroll speed depends on the difficulty and music.
for example, D2 on technika is hard ONLY because of it's scrolling speed (you can think this as AR10 on regular normal and calling it insane)
Even all other major rhythm games are different.
Considering AR as difficulty or as user's taste doesnt have true answer. If there would to be, maybe other major games would've done it too.
I think this should be decided by ppy since he's the one who created this. If else, it should follow poll's result.
jubeat uses same AR for every single difficulty, and song. pretty unique..
DJMax technika and reflecbeat, is pretty much like osu, where scroll speed depends on the difficulty and music.
for example, D2 on technika is hard ONLY because of it's scrolling speed (you can think this as AR10 on regular normal and calling it insane)
Even all other major rhythm games are different.
Considering AR as difficulty or as user's taste doesnt have true answer. If there would to be, maybe other major games would've done it too.
I think this should be decided by ppy since he's the one who created this. If else, it should follow poll's result.
jubeat <3
ctb isn't rhythm based. therefore broken.CaCtus112 wrote:
where's the fun in this game then? ctb HR makes everything harder and if you change AR it's easy as hell, same with DT.. everyone can fc maps like airman and big black..
also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?
More fun for everyone.
imo it's like giving the option to use cheats in a video game or not. It's easier, and to some it is more enjoyable, but too much of it will ruin a game. It makes things less interesting, and somewhat unfair. "He can read higher/lower AR than me! It's not fair! Let me choose to make it easier for me!" No, this is just part of skill. If a mapper chooses a bad AR for a map, then that's something to be fixed by modders and XATs, and if not, expect bad feedback from users. This feature should either not be implemented or come with a negative multiplier...theowest wrote:
also. If it makes it easier, it makes it more enjoyable. Everybody can tweak the AR so it's fair. Right?
More fun for everyone.
dude, all the other rhythm games have it.
you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
And if all the other rhythm games were jumping off cliffs...
Oh god yes <3
osu! isn't "all the other rhythm games." osu! already does many things that the other games do not, which is probably why we have so many users here. Comparing to other games is not much of an argument here because of that.theowest wrote:
dude, all the other rhythm games have it.
What are you saying?theowest wrote:
you can't say it's unfair if it's not unfair for every fucking person on this planet.
It works in other rhythm games, why shouldn't it work with osu?
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.
I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.
Approach rate has nothing to do with rhythm. This is a rhythm game.
But yes, we have to visually control with our cursor too, but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier. It's all up to you.
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.
I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.
Approach rate has nothing to do with rhythm. This is a rhythm game.
But yes, we have to visually control with our cursor too, but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier. It's all up to you.
Make it an unranked feature and it'll be fair for everyone.
It will be fair anyway, since everyone will be able to use it.
Honestly is seems that other rhythm games do not put much thought into readability. Because of how our ranking system is and our process here compared to other places, using a mapper-defined AR works better than it would if it was on other games. Of course, it will "work" with osu!, but mapper-defined is much better for all the reasons I have previously said as well as others.theowest wrote:
It works in other rhythm games, why shouldn't it work with osu?
It is like osu! if it has an approach rate.
Okay, then how is it unfair to me and not others? Explain moretheowest wrote:
I'm saying it's only unfair for you. Not for me or my brother. It might be unfair for your sister but not for your brother.
Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.theowest wrote:
but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
So that it is easy for everyone. Not just the ones who's good at that AR. It's the rhythmic skill and precision which counts in the end.Yes it does, that's the point of this thread: Make AR customizable so it is easier.theowest wrote:
but approach rates still doesn't make shit harder/easier
I know it was an example, but I wanted a specific case on where it would be unfair to just one person.theowest wrote:
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone happy.
AR is part of skill, you should not be able to change it without some kind of negative effect. It's like being able to customize the speed of the song, not everybody can move their fingers that fast, but for some people its easier if its faster, just like AR. "So lets let it be customizable, so that -everyone- will be able to pick their preferred speed, right? It's not fair because some people are good at that BPM!" No, if it's part of skill, it should not be changeable without a negative multiplier - just like Spun Out Mod and HT. It doesn't matter if its subjective, thats why it will be a choice to use the mod or not.
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
AR checks are done through modding - just like note density - to insure it is not completely unreadable.
How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
They don't know what's best for everyone. Even if they mod, there will still be people not agreeing. There are always beatmaps with ARs people don't agree with. If everyone could pick their own AR, everyone would have that advantage. Everyone will be happy. No matter how you play, it will always be fair this way. Because everyone picked their own AR they prefer to play with. Playing with Half time WILL make it easier. ANY map, for EVERYONE. Playing with doubletime WILL make it harder, for EVERYONE. Playing with hidden, hardrock, flashlight, will make it harder. The easy mod in this situation is one fucked up mod, so let's not talk about that for now.Makar wrote:
You should probably re-read my post again because you haven't made an argument about why being able to change something that requires skill is a bad idea.theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
AR checks are done through modding - just like note density - to insure it is not completely unreadable.How does AR not make it easier or harder? How does it not change gameplay? It's a readability skill. AR can even make or break a map if not used properly (which is why it goes through modding)theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
Everyone can agree on the OD, HP drain rate, BPM, circle size, spacing, etc. That's what the modding is all about. Making sure it's okay enough to get ranked. To match the difficulty you are trying to map. But AR? That shit is subjective as fuck. Learning to play with AR9 + hardrock was a separate experience for me. osu! is about rhythm and precision. Not about how fast you can read notes.
osu! is rated E, for everyone.
This would break CtB.
@theowest: Again, part of skill is being able to read both higher and lower ARs, if you can only read one or the other, then that's just something for you to improve on.
Part of rhythm gaming is also being able to read the notes.
Part of rhythm gaming is also being able to read the notes.
Good. Then we're agreed that Hidden and Flashlight should be worth 1.00x, because they change none of those things. Same BPM, same sliders, same distances, same OD, same drain, and the same circle size. And just like AR, once you've memorized a map, you can play it AR13, Hidden, and Flashlight with no difference from playing it any other way... because none of these things change the map in a way that makes it easier or harder, or even different. All three do exactly the same thing... control the flow of information, but not alter it. Which is a good reason to be wary of just making AR a preference... the same sort of thing is rewarded elsewhere, and things that get score rewards are considered "skill". This is not a trivial choice to make and has to be done right.theowest wrote:
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
theowest wrote:
The notes always play at the same speed. ARs doesn't change the speed.
The point of this thread is that the beatmapper doesn't know shit about what you can do, so you have to make sure it's right for you, so you can enjoy the beatmap as much as possible. That's the point. If everyone can change the AR to whatever they want, then everyone will be happy.
BPM, slider velocity, distance between notes, distance in time between notes, OD, HP drain rate, circle size. That's everything which makes a beatmap harder/easier.
It doesn't change the gameplay, compared to Half Time or any other mod which truly makes it easier or harder.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/915
Play the Insane on this and tell me it doesn't affect gameplay. Some players just don't appreciate AR until they see a map that relies on it to be difficult.
(I'm aware it's a very old map example, but it's a very clear example that proves AR does affect gameplay. Hard is the exact same mapping with lowered stats. turn hardrock on that map to further clarify my point. )
Yes for easy mod!
If anything else, then no.
If anything else, then no.
Just sayin here, for games like O2Jam, beatmania IIDX or games with note speed, I prefer to use lower multipliers.
When x4~x5 was the famous multiplier on O2Jam and while about 80% of the users used those, I prefered to use x2.5. But that doesn't mean I'm noob or somewhat like that, actually I was better then 80% of other players. It just depends on how we think.
However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
Big black and airman? actually, some people feels better with AR10 on those. remember that most of decent maps are most comfortable with default AR for most people, but adjustable AR would be good feature to have because people are different.
When x4~x5 was the famous multiplier on O2Jam and while about 80% of the users used those, I prefered to use x2.5. But that doesn't mean I'm noob or somewhat like that, actually I was better then 80% of other players. It just depends on how we think.
However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
Big black and airman? actually, some people feels better with AR10 on those. remember that most of decent maps are most comfortable with default AR for most people, but adjustable AR would be good feature to have because people are different.
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.theowest wrote:
It was just an example. It doesn't apply to everyone. It does not make everything harder for everyone.
But with a user definable option, everyone will be able to pick their preferable AR. That's right, even you. Everyone's happy.
if this got implented i would be able to hr so many more songs because i cant read AR10(ar8/9HR), just set it to AR5 or 6 and boom instant HR FC. thats not the point of HR, HR should increase the AR, being able to change the AR makes the whole mod a joke.
also people saying ar9 is so much easier than ar8 for every insane player.. i have more trouble with it than with ar7 or 8.
also people saying ar9 is so much easier than ar8 for every insane player.. i have more trouble with it than with ar7 or 8.
And this is why it was split from OD, before the AR a map would have would be equivalent to it's OD.haha5957 wrote:
However It's kinda nonsense to call AR a difficulty because mappers decide AR to help players read most comfortably, not to make it harder or something like that. If there is a mapper who thinks "hehe I'm gonna make this AR10 and make players struggle!!" that map is never gonna get ranked.
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
The reason people want this is because they will be able to change fucked up ARs so they can play it perfectly.
Just like the beatmap you gave me, it's not the AR people would want. Let everyone have the AR they want, because ARs are never agreed upon by everyone. What makes that beatmap hard is the OD9, I can read AR9 perfectly, but OD9 is fucking hard sometimes, especially with terrible spacing and not the best offset and the timing sounds off. The ones who've been able to play have just adapted to it.
I can read AR9 + hardrock ARs but I still can't play it very well. Want to know why? Because the OD. That's what makes hardrock hard, oh and the circle size.
It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
Let's check the past.
A beatmapper have more control over a BAT or a MAT. Just look at the recent thousand maps.
We already know that higher ARs are harder for some and easier for others.
This would've been so much easier to implement in the past, because you're now afraid of change. Have any of you ever played other rhythm games with user definable ARs? Did you enjoy it? Well everyone could enjoy it because every could use it.
It isn't just going to make it easier for you, but also for everyone else. Nobody's happy with the AR on a beatmap? Fine, let everyone just change it to their preferred AR then. Everyone gets this advantage.
I just don't see how this change would change anything but make more people happy. The one who will change thier AR will not get the advantage over you, because you can do the same fucking thing.
Don't even bother replying to this. I won't reply again. I don't care anymore. Let the developers (peppy) do whatever he wants. He does seem to have a positive attitude to this idea anyway.
It's all draw towards your same argument all the fucking time. Yes, it does fucking make it easier/harder. But since some beatmaps are broken and people are not happy with that, people will be able to change the AR and everyone will be happy. It won't be unfair since everyone can change it. How is that hard to understand?
Just like the beatmap you gave me, it's not the AR people would want. Let everyone have the AR they want, because ARs are never agreed upon by everyone. What makes that beatmap hard is the OD9, I can read AR9 perfectly, but OD9 is fucking hard sometimes, especially with terrible spacing and not the best offset and the timing sounds off. The ones who've been able to play have just adapted to it.
I can read AR9 + hardrock ARs but I still can't play it very well. Want to know why? Because the OD. That's what makes hardrock hard, oh and the circle size.
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
Let's check the past.
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
mm201 wrote:
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.Matty wrote:
If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
A beatmapper have more control over a BAT or a MAT. Just look at the recent thousand maps.
well said. We're trying to entertain everyone here, right? You want to be able to play a map without having to be annoyed by the one thing most people are annoyed by. The AR. Today, most of the beatmaps have a good AR but there are always some beatmaps with shitty ARs.awp wrote:
Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
Pretty much, but since everyone who makes maps doesn't know what the player wants, beatmaps will become confusing clusterfucks.mm201 wrote:
AR depends on the mapping. Taking a high AR map and lowering it will turn it into a confusing clusterfuck. Another map could be designed for the low AR, have no overlaps, have readable spacing, and work just fine.
A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.This is a skill they should develop. inb4 extreme case shit where maps not designed for low AR get their AR changed.Shael wrote:
it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9
We already know that higher ARs are harder for some and easier for others.
This would've been so much easier to implement in the past, because you're now afraid of change. Have any of you ever played other rhythm games with user definable ARs? Did you enjoy it? Well everyone could enjoy it because every could use it.
It isn't just going to make it easier for you, but also for everyone else. Nobody's happy with the AR on a beatmap? Fine, let everyone just change it to their preferred AR then. Everyone gets this advantage.
I just don't see how this change would change anything but make more people happy. The one who will change thier AR will not get the advantage over you, because you can do the same fucking thing.
Looks like someone have played other rhythm games. Why don't you all try the idea before you hate it? Have you guys seriously played another rhythm game with user definable ARs? Try it. See for yourself. That's what made me change my opinion on things.rickyboi wrote:
I like this idea because of all the rythm games I've played. Osu is the only one that has no adjustments for speed readings.
Don't even bother replying to this. I won't reply again. I don't care anymore. Let the developers (peppy) do whatever he wants. He does seem to have a positive attitude to this idea anyway.
It's all draw towards your same argument all the fucking time. Yes, it does fucking make it easier/harder. But since some beatmaps are broken and people are not happy with that, people will be able to change the AR and everyone will be happy. It won't be unfair since everyone can change it. How is that hard to understand?
As Lybydose points out, the ship has already sailed for just simply allowing it as a preference now. Two of the plus mods are the same thing as AR in a different wrapper, and the other two alter it. AR is fundamentally tied to the things that give more points and thus get recognition as "skill". Which is why you can expect things like AR only to be able to be increased (as peppy brought forward) if it's just a simple preference people can set... that would help protect the value of HR, because otherwise it would be largely cancelled out for so many maps that it wouldn't be worth any bonus (even where it might still apply). This makes things more like what Henry Ford said about the Model T, "you can have any colour you want, so long as it's black". There might not be a real choice for everyone, and that would be unfair by your own reasoning.theowest wrote:
Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.No, they can also change the AR. Everyone will be able to change it. How is that hard to understand?
Actually, in this case, it's better to look at it in the way Sakura did. Most people who simply said "No" will be okay if it was negative, but would just prefer it not being implemented at all, and vice versa.theowest wrote:
No, it's just 31 people. The other 41 people who said no doesn't want this at all, they disagree with it completely or they would've picked the "Yes, with a negative multiplier". They don't want to be able to change the AR on a shitty map so that it's playable.Sakura wrote:
@theowest: Well apparently not everyone shares your opinion, going by poll results there's at least 71 people right now that disagree with having custom AR without a penalty.
Also, I'm sure a lot of people will at first see this poll and think "ohey AR customization, I want this so its easier" and so they choose Yes without thinking about how it effects the game - they just want it to be easier so they can get a better score. I bet after some users actually start reading this thread about all the reasons to -not- allow this, they have changed their mind (which probably explains the gradual decrease in the number of people who actually agree to do this without a penalty).
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.theowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well. or some really shitty old one. That's what people would change and make it playable for them, and everyone else.Kyou-kun wrote:
I'd be happy if they nerfed streams so we can select any BPM we want for them. After all, it's easier for everyone, right? Since some people are better at fast streams than others are at slow ones and vice versa. Everyone's happy then! E for everyone, etc.
It's like having the wrong offset on a beatmap, it makes things harder for most people, but some people can adapt to them.
Maps with poor and stubborn AR will not get ranked, just like the wrong offset on a beatmap. You are the one here that is missing the point. You want this game to be playable by everyone. If you want AR to be user definable so that it can help the map be playable by everyone, changing the speed of the map does the same. Its just one is a more obvious skill requirement than the other.
Taken from the feature request for having more keys to stream with (which also makes the game easier):
Zarerion wrote:
Uhm...
This is seriously being discussed?
"I can't do this, because it's too hard and I'm too lazy to practice, make it easier!!"
I mean, what the fuck? This whole idea is ridicolous, it would totally destroy the whole osu!-gameplay.
@Makar, you are breaking your logic yourself.
Then why not just let them do that? it would be even harder when they do it. People who disagrees with adjustable AR, are against it mainly because they think it would make this game easier for everyone.
However, it's been said that the default AR will work best for most people and it's ridiculos to say that adjusting AR would make this game easier.
You are breaking your own logic by yourself : You're saying adjustable AR would make this game easier, thus not a good thing. but at the same time you are saying that adjusting AR would make most of maps harder.
If adjusting AR makes a map easier, then that kinda means that map sucks. just like some of maps have wrong offset, they have wrong AR. Then we should be able to adjust that .(for offset, we use + and - as you know)
What's so wrong with this?
It's just this simple : Let them adjust their AR because adjusting AR would make it harder. However if it actually makes it easier, then the map's AR is wrong just like how some maps have wrong offset.
I can't understand how you are saying "ah...default AR is da best! AR adjusting is unnecessary." and "Adjusting AR would make this game easier" at the same time.
Airman and bigblack with AR8 would be horrible and unreadable. Hell yeah, agrees.Makar wrote:
He is not missing the point, you are missing the point. An AR10 map that doesn't play well will -not- be ranked. Airman and bigblack require AR10 to play well, which is why it was ranked that way. Consider the difficulty of those AR10 maps anyways - they are insane, and can only be played by pros which can actually read AR10. Those maps are -easier- to play on AR10 than they are AR9 (though this is partially an opinion) and using AR8 would make it completely unreadable.
Then why not just let them do that? it would be even harder when they do it. People who disagrees with adjustable AR, are against it mainly because they think it would make this game easier for everyone.
However, it's been said that the default AR will work best for most people and it's ridiculos to say that adjusting AR would make this game easier.
You are breaking your own logic by yourself : You're saying adjustable AR would make this game easier, thus not a good thing. but at the same time you are saying that adjusting AR would make most of maps harder.
If adjusting AR makes a map easier, then that kinda means that map sucks. just like some of maps have wrong offset, they have wrong AR. Then we should be able to adjust that .(for offset, we use + and - as you know)
What's so wrong with this?
It's just this simple : Let them adjust their AR because adjusting AR would make it harder. However if it actually makes it easier, then the map's AR is wrong just like how some maps have wrong offset.
I can't understand how you are saying "ah...default AR is da best! AR adjusting is unnecessary." and "Adjusting AR would make this game easier" at the same time.
I just saw this and it made me scratch my head. what the hell is this statementtheowest wrote:
You're missing the point. A beatmapper can be stubborn about his AR. Name one AR10 beatmap which plays well.
"plays well"? what's "well"? That's the most subjective statement I've ever seen.
Also, I've seen beatmappers who put AR9 on [Hard] difficulties for low-bpm songs, and it gets ranked, so I don't see the problem? (meanwhile some 200bpm Insanes like Chousai Kenbo use AR8, wtf? AR9 would've made it much more playable). In the end, mappers make maps the way they like. You should stop assuming AR is some global stat that can be perfect for each map; the mapper should feel free to pick his own difficulty tuning based on his preferences and the modding process should not eliminate this either.
If you play a map for ranking purposes, accept the mapper's settings and learn to play by them.
But if you just play for fun, why should the game restrict the ways you're allowed to enjoy it? One of osu!'s strongest points in the open-edit. Other games without open-edit have died quickly because people basically just 'tried everything out' and got bored. Meanwhile games with an open map editor and editing options (starcraft, unreal tournament (UDK+mutators), etc) have lasted for years because people always had new things they could try out.
More freedom is always a plus. Just add it in a way that doesn't hurt ranking and you're done. Why do you people make it so much more complicated than it really is.
Aqo is right.
I can only repeat myself, AR is chosen by the mapper to fit the specific map. Changing it would be equal to changing the map, which would be cheating.
And if this gets implemented, it MUST have a negative multiplier. However, it must reduce the score enough to make sure one can't get top scores by reducing AR and using HR. I would suggest x0,5, in order to make sure this is an fun/practice-only-option.
I can only repeat myself, AR is chosen by the mapper to fit the specific map. Changing it would be equal to changing the map, which would be cheating.
And if this gets implemented, it MUST have a negative multiplier. However, it must reduce the score enough to make sure one can't get top scores by reducing AR and using HR. I would suggest x0,5, in order to make sure this is an fun/practice-only-option.
@haha5967: Most of the time people complain about AR because it is too hard for them to play (too high or too low). If the AR chosen by the mapper is a poor choice of AR, that will result in a bad map/ratings. But, a bad map is a bad map. If you don't like it, don't play it. There's nothing we can do about poor OD/HP choice either, and im sure nobody will want to allow adjusting that because some mappers suck at choosing a good OD/HP. The same applies to AR.
FYI if you want to challenge yourself at a hard AR, just edit the beatmap yourself and it won't even count towards your rank (and I'm sure you dont want it to count if you truely are adjusting just so you can test yourself. However, if you are adjusting the AR because it is too hard and you want it to be easier, then again I will say it needs to be a difficulty decreasing mod.
Really, Easy mod just needs to let the player adjust their own difficulty settings and you will get what you want.
And yeah, I agree with Aqo and Zarerion. This way, everybody gets what they want.
EDIT: lolwtf ~+100SP and ~13 votes in the past hour? hrrr
FYI if you want to challenge yourself at a hard AR, just edit the beatmap yourself and it won't even count towards your rank (and I'm sure you dont want it to count if you truely are adjusting just so you can test yourself. However, if you are adjusting the AR because it is too hard and you want it to be easier, then again I will say it needs to be a difficulty decreasing mod.
Really, Easy mod just needs to let the player adjust their own difficulty settings and you will get what you want.
And yeah, I agree with Aqo and Zarerion. This way, everybody gets what they want.
EDIT: lolwtf ~+100SP and ~13 votes in the past hour? hrrr
Looks like a lot of people want this.