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[Rule] Romanisation of Chinese, Japanese and Korean titles

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Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Things that would need clarification imo (regarding Japanese):
Particles - は, へ and を
は (ha), when used as a particle is pronounced wa. I've seen both romanizations in osu! map names.
へ (he), same thing. Pronounced e as a particle.
を (wo) becomes o.
This may sound inconsistent, but I believe wa, he and wo should always be used.

Then there are two more issues that I'd like to give an example for.
妖精帝國 - 空想メソロギヰ
In the ranked maps, this has been romanized as "Yousei Teikoku - Kuusou Mesorogiwi"
Issue #1: The romanization of メソロギヰ
This is a stylized spelling of ミソロジー / misorojii / Mythology; the outdated character ヰ (wi) is basically pronounced as i. Do you go for the literal romanization Mesorogiwi or the English equivalent Mythology?
Issue #2: Official vs literal romanization of artist names like 妖精帝國
Here, an official translated version of the name actually exists: Das Feenreich.
However, all of osu! is completely used to the literal romanization of Yousei Teikoku. Forcing the "official" name would only add to the confusion in cases like this.
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail

Luna wrote:

Things that would need clarification imo (regarding Japanese):
Particles - は, へ and を
は (ha), when used as a particle is pronounced wa. I've seen both romanizations in osu! map names.
へ (he), same thing. Pronounced e as a particle.
を (wo) becomes o.
This may sound inconsistent, but I believe wa, he and wo should always be used.

Then there are two more issues that I'd like to give an example for.
妖精帝國 - 空想メソロギヰ
In the ranked maps, this has been romanized as "Yousei Teikoku - Kuusou Mesorogiwi"
Issue #1: The romanization of メソロギヰ
This is a stylized spelling of ミソロジー / misorojii / Mythology; the outdated character ヰ (wi) is basically pronounced as i. Do you go for the literal romanization Mesorogiwi or the English equivalent Mythology?
Issue #2: Official vs literal romanization of artist names like 妖精帝國
Here, an official translated version of the name actually exists: Das Feenreich.
However, all of osu! is completely used to the literal romanization of Yousei Teikoku. Forcing the "official" name would only add to the confusion in cases like this.
The case of wi [ゐ/ヰ] we [ゑ/ヱ] and wo [ヲ] is a difficult one, as they are no longer 'proper usage' in japanese. They were fazed out because they no longer served a distinct difference to other kana. ゐ/ヰ slowly started being just pronounced い [i] and served no spoken difference, same goes for the others. へ [he] and を [wo] being pronounced as え [e] and お [o] when used in particle form is a modern day hold over from the same sort of thing. Which is what makes the romanization case not entirely cut and dry.

I think any case of the obsolete kanas wi [ゐ/ヰ] we [ゑ/ヱ] wo [ヲ] should be made an exception to a 1:1 rule and to be romanized as their pronounced forms, as they are NEVER spoken in their original sound, and romanizing them 1:1 to their original classical sound messes up the actual speaking of the word it is used in, as they aren't spoken that way. (which is why they are obsolete characters)

Summary;
ゐ/ヰ [wi] = i
ゑ/ヱ [we] = e
ヲ [wo] = o

As for the current particles that have a similar case, は [ha] へ [he] を [wo] I think it should be the same. Ha [は] when spoken as a particle sounds like wa [わ] but is not WRITTEN as such. Something like 「あなたは」 is written 'anata HA' but said as 'anata WA'. I believe in romanization it's important to get across what is actually said, as in my case for the romanization of the obsolete kanas above. So ha [は] in it's particle form should be romanized into what is actually said with 'wa' and the particles へ [he] and を [wo] should be similarly contracted into e and o.

は [ha, particle form] = wa
へ [he, particle form] = e
を [wo, particle form] = o

This basically accounts for ALL the exceptions in Japanese that aren't pronounced or used in a straightforward way.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
ha -> wa is the only true sound change, the other particles are just partially silenced. This is especially noticable with を (wo), which is sometimes pronounced a bit different from お (o). Taking into consideration that morae ending in u often result in silenced letters as well, I'd keep the romanization of the fully pronounced kana; otherwise we might as well start romanizing です as des (Please don't do that).
And, while not completely relevant to this discussion, there are actually modern words that use ヲ in stylized spellings - ヲタ (wota, short form of otaku) comes to mind.

So basically, romanize the は particle as wa due to actual sound changes, keep everything else as literal romanization. YMMV.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
does using the Hepburn standard of romanisation address the issues mentioned here or not?
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail

Ephemeral wrote:

does using the Hepburn standard of romanisation address the issues mentioned here or not?
It does. Although don't use modified Hepburn. I don't think we want to start having to write things like よう as yô or yō. :o

I think this chart should be used as quick reference: http://www.library.illinois.edu/asx/jap ... table.html

Luna wrote:

while not completely relevant to this discussion, there are actually modern words that use ヲ in stylized spellings - ヲタ (wota, short form of otaku) comes to mind.
Have you ever heard ヲタ read aloud? I haven't, but I also have never seen or heard a native Japanese speaker read ヲ or ゐ in their classical sense (hence why they are obsolete). Even when people like to use them in names of characters/works to make it seem fancy. Quick example would be Sora no [W]oto [ソ・ラ・ノ・ヲ・ト] (lit; sound of the sky) where in classical Japanese oto would have been spoken and written as woto (as with MANY words that use お). Usage of ヲ here is to make it seem old and interesting. It's also basically never romanized to Woto, since it's not read that way by modern standards.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Hepburn stuff:
Depending of the circumstances, long vovels are often signified by a macron. This leads to ambiguity since ō can be either oo or ou, whithout further indication. I also believe that macrons are not usable in non-Unicode titles (since the German umlauts aren't accepted either), so we'll have to settle for a modified Hepburn version regardless.
You'll also have the discuss if you want to follow the n-separation properly. Odds are, you've seen the word renai in some titles before; that is technically not a real word, the correct spelling would actually be ren'ai. Now, the question is if details like this even matter to non-speakers, since it only has very very minor influence on the actual pronounciation.
In terms of particles, only one has a truly decided romanization: は always becomes wa. For the other ones, traditional Hepburn and the revised version disagree on the spelling. The traditional way uses the full romanization (he, wo), while the more modern one uses just the voiced part. However, every single textbook I've ever seen use romanizations used the traditional method, so take that for what it's worth. I'd also like to repeat that を (wo) can make a slightly distinct sound from お (o) depending on the speaker. This is magnified in songs, where more often than not, wo is pronounced fully. There is absoultely no rule on ゐ/ヰ (wi or i), ゑ/ヱ (we or e) and non-particle を/ヲ (wo or o); even in modern Hepburn, you are free to use whichever you like. Personally, I favor the full form.
One more issue I have with Hepburn is that ぢ/ヂ and づ/ヅ are indistinguishable from じ/ジ and ず/ズ respectively. The romanizations for じ/ジ (ji) and ず/ズ (zu) are straightforward, but the other ones aren't. ぢ/ヂ are the "dakuten" form of ち/チ (chi), which are t-line kana. t + dakuten results in a d sound, so dji would be a more proper romanization than ji. Same story for づ/ヅ, which also originate from the t-line and should thus be romanized as dzu (as opposed to zu). Some regional dialects make a distinction between these two sounds, so I strongly advise you to go with the longer, non-Hepburn variant.

The rule obviously does not adress my question concerning the handling of stylized katakana spellings and official translations of artist names, so that's another problem still.

Have you ever heard ヲタ read aloud?
I actually have, as you might guess it's pronounced mostly like ota :P
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail

Luna wrote:

The rule obviously does not adress my question concerning the handling of stylized katakana spellings and official translations of artist names, so that's another problem still.
I think in the case of stylized foreign word spelling, using the aforementioned [メソロギヰ] as an example, we should just use the word that is actually being used, in this case 'Mythology' any other way just makes it silly.

And as for Yousei Teikoku saying their silly name is 'Das Feenreich' (which it is, in german) if they wanted to be known by that name, they should use that name. We should just use what is on the song, in the case of 妖精帝國 that is Yousei Teikoku. Unless of course, the artist kanji is specifically using furigana to denote their silly nonsensical reading in the first place.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
They actually use "Das Feenreich" in Japan as well, alongside the Japanese name (take a look at their official site).
While I agree that we should just stick with the tried-and-tested "Yousei Teikoku", we need to clarify the proposed rule of using official translations.
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail
Yousei Teikoku whyyy :cry:

I can't think of any other examples of 'official' group translations, which leaves us just with eccentric Yousei Teikoku to base this ruling on. Which really just makes it an edge case. I think official group translations should be disregarded except in the cases where the group is literally called only by that name. Basically just use whatever is listed on the song.

If anyone can pull more examples to better compile this rule that'd be great.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Not exactly the same case, but related:
電気式華憐音楽集団 <- proper name
I really don't want to see Denkishikikarenongakushuudan as the romanized artist, and rather use the shortened Denkare which has been used by mappers so far.

Same singer as Yousei Teikoku btw, go figure :roll:
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail
Might have to just make it a case-by-case basis due to it not being anywhere near common, and not being totally black and white. With the addendum that if someone has mapped that artist before, you should use their example so the maps by said artist group correctly.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
Topic Starter
SapphireGhost
The problem I see with Hepburn romanisation would be having to use "ō" in the non-unicode field. tangorin's style of romanisation avoids this and I believe it is actually closer to osu!'s style of romanisation than Hepburn, but I don't know what it's called.

In a more specific example of HujuniseikouyuuP, I believe there is reason to start romanising it as FujuniseikouyuuP instead. However, this would imply ふじゅに (fujuni) as opposed to ふじゅんい (fujun'i), so there is still the question of we should use apostrophes in these situations, like with ren'ai. Then there's capitalisation. Is it wrong to use FujunIseiKouyuuP to denote the separate parts of the name? And capitalisation issues carry over to many other cases.
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail

SapphireGhost wrote:

The problem I see with Hepburn romanisation would be having to use "ō" in the non-unicode field. tangorin's style of romanisation avoids this and I believe it is actually closer to osu!'s style of romanisation than Hepburn, but I don't know what it's called.

In a more specific example of HujuniseikouyuuP, I believe there is reason to start romanising it as FujuniseikouyuuP instead. However, this would imply ふじゅに (fujuni) as opposed to ふじゅんい (fujun'i), so there is still the question of we should use apostrophes in these situations, like with ren'ai. Then there's capitalisation. Is it wrong to use FujunIseiKouyuuP to denote the separate parts of the name? And capitalization issues carry over to many other cases.
Using ō causes all kinds of problems, like confusing oo and ou, nevermind the fact that osu's systems don't like it. Long and extended vowels should always be written out.

For FujuniseikouyuuP, I believe it got romanized into Hu just because typing 'hu' into the IME puts out ふ [fu] as there is no 'hu'. 不純異性交遊 is read FU.

As for apostrophes. This comes down to personal preference I guess? I mean I see nothing wrong with using them, and they serve an actual purpose, but they aren't entirely vital to reading or transliterating. I guess in the Example Fujun'iseikouyuuP I would vote in favor of using them, as it helps break up very long names. On intercapping long names; I've never actually seen anyone do that. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but like I said I've never seen anyone use intercaps in romanization.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Chinese, Japanese and Korean titles must be romanised and not translated unless a translated title is officially provided. Foreign words in titles should be romanised to the original language instead.
changed to:

Metadata originally from a non-Latin alphabet language must be romanized using an accepted system deemed as standard for that language (such as Hepburn for Japanese). In cases where the exact system to use for romanization is uncertain, existing ranked maps with similar metadata in the same language may be used as an example.
Thoughts?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
A bit complicated expressed. I needed to read this like 5 times to get what it says. And I wonder if the 2nd part is really required?
Also it doesnt include the katakana -> non-japananese cases like "Higurashi Moratorium".
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
Topic Starter
SapphireGhost
Metadata originally from a non-Latin alphabet language must be romanized using an accepted system deemed as standard for that language (such as Hepburn for Japanese). In cases where the exact system to use for romanization is uncertain, existing ranked maps with similar metadata in the same language may be used as an example.
This also leaves out the "not translated unless a translated title is officially provided". And again, I would prefer not to use Hepburn is because it would require the use of "ō".

In Hepburn: 金曜日（きんようび）: ki + n + yo + u + bi = kinyōbi or kin'yōbi – Friday

I would rather see this as kin'youbi or kinyoubi.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

SapphireGhost wrote:

I would rather see this as kin'youbi or kinyoubi.
Latter one is more common and way more practicable. The aposrophes only indicate the right spelling, not "really" the right proounciation. The difference is minor (if even existing). And since romaji shall help to make stuff "read- and pronounceable" instead of "catching the entire right spelling", I would not use any apostrophes.
Moreover, trying to catch right spelling (to that extend) in romaji is weird, since writing japanese stuff with latin letters is wrong anyways. So no need for this.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
anything like ō or some shit with a bar over it shouldn't be necessary at all imo
it's so pointless + it removes information + not intuitive + more effort etc.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral

SapphireGhost wrote:

Metadata originally from a non-Latin alphabet language must be romanized using an accepted system deemed as standard for that language (such as Hepburn for Japanese). In cases where the exact system to use for romanization is uncertain, existing ranked maps with similar metadata in the same language may be used as an example.
This also leaves out the "not translated unless a translated title is officially provided". And again, I would prefer not to use Hepburn is because it would require the use of "ō".

In Hepburn: 金曜日（きんようび）: ki + n + yo + u + bi = kinyōbi or kin'yōbi – Friday

I would rather see this as kin'youbi or kinyoubi.
the latter example (kinyoubi) is how we've always done it and is expressed in previous ranked maps with similar metadata, so it is encompassed by the rule.

changing to:

Metadata originally from a non-Latin alphabet language must be romanized using an accepted system deemed as standard for that language (such as Hepburn Traditional for Japanese), unless an official translated title is provided by the artist. In cases where the exact system to use for romanization is uncertain, existing ranked maps with similar metadata in the same language may be used as an example.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Loctav wrote:

Also it doesnt include the katakana -> non-japanese cases like "Higurashi Moratorium".
It still doesn't tell that katakana-transcribed words that only replace an english (or other language's) word, should be written in its original language (so not writing the hepburn/whatever way to transcribe the katakana, but writing the English word with right spelling)

Or is that included with that "official translation" thing? If yes, it's misleading
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
Topic Starter
SapphireGhost

Ephemeral wrote:

the latter example (kinyoubi) is how we've always done it and is expressed in previous ranked maps with similar metadata, so it is encompassed by the rule.
It would be better for the rule to exist without having to rely on previous ranked maps, because not all previously ranked maps have correct metadata, so "how we've always done it" isn't always good reasoning.

Does the romanisation method on http://tangorin.com/ have a name? It seems to fit with what we're looking for, other than its use of apostrophes.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Hey I found no one talking about Chinese issue.

In Chinese we have a special pinyin letter that is like (yu)

Taking a Chinese word as example, 绿色 （l se)

Actually in our IME we have such letter as V, so this should be OK:

lv se

But V is never used in real pinyin, would that be suitable that we use V in the Chinese "romanized" name?
Kayano
1,286 posts
Joined July 2011
Kayano

xxbidiao wrote:

Hey I found no one talking about Chinese issue.

In Chinese we have a special pinyin letter that is like (yu)

Taking a Chinese word as example, 绿色 （l se)

Actually in our IME we have such letter as V, so this should be OK:

lv se

But V is never used in real pinyin, would that be suitable that we use V in the Chinese "romanized" name?
"lü se" <- it is OK to type

"lǜ sè" <- 233
mintong89
3,698 posts
Joined July 2011
mintong89
ü isn't a romanisation word.

i think " lv se " is the most fit at this problem. if you use " lu se " may be confused between u and ü
evanma
31 posts
Joined January 2013
evanma

OniJAM wrote:

xxbidiao wrote:

Hey I found no one talking about Chinese issue.

In Chinese we have a special pinyin letter that is like (yu)

Taking a Chinese word as example, 绿色 （l se)

Actually in our IME we have such letter as V, so this should be OK:

lv se

But V is never used in real pinyin, would that be suitable that we use V in the Chinese "romanized" name?
"lü se" <- it is OK to type

"lǜ sè" <- 233

mintong89 wrote:

ü isn't a romanisation word.

i think " lv se " is the most fit at this problem. if you use " lu se " may be confused between u and ü
Meh. I think lv and lü are both fine. I think of them interchangably. XD
mintong89
3,698 posts
Joined July 2011
mintong89
you can't write ü at romanisation title right?
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Gwoyeu Romatzyh looks preferable for Chinese romanisation from what I've read of it
mintong89
3,698 posts
Joined July 2011
mintong89

Ephemeral wrote:

Gwoyeu Romatzyh looks preferable for Chinese romanisation from what I've read of it
nono, Hanyu Pinyin is the most fit at here, because not all people can be able to understand Gwoyeu Romatzyh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin
Megurine Luka
2,580 posts
Joined November 2010
Megurine Luka
No please ;w; I can't read Gwoyeu Romatzyh

And I'm sure most Chinese don't use them and more than half of Chinese people don't know this stuff ;w;
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

Megurine Luka wrote:

No please ;w; I can't read Gwoyeu Romatzyh

And I'm sure most Chinese don't use them and more than half of Chinese people don't know this stuff ;w;
--Just confirming this, that Pinyin is the most widely used Romanisation system. Wade-Giles is a bit less popular, however hardly anyone uses Gwoyeu Romatzyh among the mainstream.

--Another question is: What if there is transliterated words in the Chinese song name? For example:
有钱的狗 - 沙发

Is it "You Qian De Gou - Sha Fa", or "You Qian De Gou - Sofa"?

--Also. If there is expletive, should it be in lower case? Example:
郭采洁 - 我的未来式

Should it be "Guo Caijie - Wo De Wei Lai Shi" or "Guo Cai Jie - Wo de Wei Lai Shi"?

--Last question. When several characters form a word, should them be written together? Example:
林依晨 - 孤单北半球

Should it be "Lin Yichen - Gu Dan Bei Ban Qiu" or "Lin Yichen - Gudan Beibanqiu"? Or maybe "Lin Yichen - GuDan BeiBanQiu"?

Details see https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/145553
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I totally agree with your idea.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Can someone sum up what we agreed so far? Did SG update the OP or something? Please, anyone? :D
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

Flower wrote:

Megurine Luka wrote:

No please ;w; I can't read Gwoyeu Romatzyh

And I'm sure most Chinese don't use them and more than half of Chinese people don't know this stuff ;w;
--Just confirming this, that Pinyin is the most widely used Romanisation system. Wade-Giles is a bit less popular, however hardly anyone uses Gwoyeu Romatzyh among the mainstream.
Fact: it's also used by teachers who teach Chinese, so...

--Another question is: What if there is transliterated words in the Chinese song name? For example:
有钱的狗 - 沙发

Is it "You Qian De Gou - Sha Fa", or "You Qian De Gou - Sofa"?

In that case, if the person who maps the song knows that it's a transliterated word, it should be the original word. In that case, sofa.

--Also. If there is expletive, should it be in lower case? Example:
郭采洁 - 我的未来式

Should it be "Guo Caijie - Wo De Wei Lai Shi" or "Guo Cai Jie - Wo de Wei Lai Shi"?

I don't get it in its fullest so I will skip that one for now

--Last question. When several characters form a word, should them be written together? Example:
林依晨 - 孤单北半球

Should it be "Lin Yichen - Gu Dan Bei Ban Qiu" or "Lin Yichen - Gudan Beibanqiu"? Or maybe "Lin Yichen - GuDan BeiBanQiu"?

If they form a word, the best way would be to make a differentiation. I had no trouble at all attributing a syllable to a character. The third option looks weird honestly (although used in some places - I think Chinese cubing manufactures use that for their cube names)

Details see https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/145553
errrr... Not everybody knows how to Chinese, lol.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
See the discussion here: t/145553
The most preferred use is pinyin, but there is no official system for pinyin. "character-based conversion" and "word-based conversion" are mostly used.
My suggestion: If there can be 3 or more words after word-based conversion, then use word-based conversion, else use character-based conversion. This is to make the conversion clear to understand.
Example:
一一二: Yi Yi Er
一一二二: Yi Yi Er Er
一一二二三三: Yiyi Erer Sansan
Zui Xuan Min Zu Feng O
Zuixuan Minzufeng X
Zhe Yang De Bai Fu Mei Zen Me Ke Yi Na Lai Gui Chu X
Zheyang De Baifumei Zenme Keyi Nalai Guichu O
Kayano
1,286 posts
Joined July 2011
Kayano
Put something i have written in p/2506832
@Popner, I think your choice seems fine generally, but there is still something could be discussed
For example, 我们的爱, "我们" is a word, "的" is a structural auxiliary word, "爱" is a word, too
So it should be spelled as "Women De Ai" in your way
But "Women"("我们") has different meaning between english and chinese ("women" means ladies, while "我们" means we)
Also it can't be easier to understand then "Wo Men De Ai"
So here is my suggestion:
If there is more than 5 characters, then use word-based conversion, else use character-based conversion.
Example:
一一一二二二: Yiyiyi Ererer
Feifange Zhi Ye X
Fei Fan Ge Zhi Ye O
Zhuanjiao Yudao Ai X
Zhuan Jiao Yu Dao Ai O
Ruguo Zhishi Ruguo O
Ru Guo Zhi Shi Ru Guo X
Repraance
8 posts
Joined February 2013
Repraance

SapphireGhost wrote:

Chinese, Japanese and Korean titles must be romanised and not translated unless a translated title is officially provided. Foreign words in titles should be romanised to the original language instead.
Chinese Example: GhostFinal - 感谢
O Gan Xie
Well I don't think this is thr right spelling.
China government has issued relevant standard about Chinese spelling, 《汉语拼音正词法基本规则》（国家标准） GB/T 16159-2012 （Chinese Pinyin Spelling Fundamental Rules )(Rules for short in the following) It could be checked here http://baike.baidu.com/view/2292589.htm （Chinese version only）
In general, the spelling is divided by word, not a single character. (Just as Japanese, I think it could be easyly understood.)
The following is the right spelling according to Rules
感谢
Ganxie
Note: This is a word, so it cannot be divided into 2 parts.

I confirmly believe this plan is correct. But I don't know how to let more people know it... :(
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

OniJAM wrote:

Feifange Zhi Ye X
Fei Fan Ge Zhi Ye O
I believe a cantonese based song would be romanized in cantonese, unless the translation is officially done.

Cantonese has a widely accepted standard to be romanized.

The correct one should be:

非(Fei) 凡(Fan) 哥(Go) 之(Tsz) 夜(Ye)

(Note that for Cantonese we don't stick the characters as well)

And also note that Cantonese romanization is not even unique officially. There are a few widely used system for it. For instance, the character 之 has 2 versions of romanizations officially: chi, tze are both used.

Meanwhile, these official romanization is basically for academic use because romanization of cantonese is not popular in daily use (we use English instead, if necessary). The common way of romanizating characters is also different from that of the official way:

非(Fei) 凡(Fan) 哥(Gor) 之(Ji) 夜(Ye)

Is a romanization that can be realized by non-Cantonese speaking ppl, and even for Cantonese-speaking ppl. (If we use "Fei Fan Go Tsz Ye" I bet they need a few seconds to understand what is that, but the second romanization is much straightforward).
linka_Happy
5 posts
Joined June 2011
linka_Happy
提几个问题。
"这样秀恩爱是不对滴"当中
"恩爱"应写作"Enai"还是"En'ai"?
"不对滴"应写作"Buduidi"还是"Budui Di"
"滴"可以考虑做"的"的变音,但是"不对滴"应该被看做一个词还是两个词?

Some questions.
In the title of "这样秀恩爱是不对滴"
Should "恩爱" be spelt as "Enai" or "En'ai" ?
Should "不对滴" be spelt as "Buduidi" or "Budui Di" ?
As we know "滴" is considered as another form of "的" , but should "不对滴" considered as ONE word or TWO ?


(这货英语痴，错误什么的请原谅w)
Melophobia
osu! Alumni
2,230 posts
Joined September 2011
Melophobia

Loctav wrote:

Can someone sum up what we agreed so far? Did SG update the OP or something? Please, anyone? :D
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
What system have all the previous Chinese maps used thus far? We may as well just use that, since it seems to work.
Atrue
osu! Alumni
1,017 posts
Joined July 2012
Atrue

Mintong wrote:

you can't write ü at romanisation title right?
Maybe we can use 'v' to romanise it. Like “绿" :' Lv ' As a matter of fact we have ranked map use it. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/16029 'Nv' but not 'Nü'

wmfchris wrote:

I believe a cantonese based song would be romanized in cantonese, unless the translation is officially done.
I agree that.

wmfchris wrote:

The correct one should be:
非(Fei) 凡(Fan) 哥(Go) 之(Tsz) 夜(Ye)

(Note that for Cantonese we don't stick the characters as well)

And also note that Cantonese romanization is not even unique officially. There are a few widely used system for it. For instance, the character 之 has 2 versions of romanizations officially: chi, tze are both used.

Meanwhile, these official romanization is basically for academic use because romanization of cantonese is not popular in daily use (we use English instead, if necessary). The common way of romanizating characters is also different from that of the official way:

非(Fei) 凡(Fan) 哥(Gor) 之(Ji) 夜(Ye)

Is a romanization that can be realized by non-Cantonese speaking ppl, and even for Cantonese-speaking ppl. (If we use "Fei Fan Go Tsz Ye" I bet they need a few seconds to understand what is that, but the second romanization is much straightforward).
For this one because I know little about Cantonese so I am on the fence. Still most of ppl around us know the song as" Fei Fan Ge Zhi Ye". After all we can find no official things in the song. Just mixed by someone.

linka_Happy wrote:

提几个问题。
"这样秀恩爱是不对滴"当中
"恩爱"应写作"Enai"还是"En'ai"?
"不对滴"应写作"Buduidi"还是"Budui Di"
"滴"可以考虑做"的"的变音,但是"不对滴"应该被看做一个词还是两个词?

Some questions.
In the title of "这样秀恩爱是不对滴"
Should "恩爱" be spelt as "Enai" or "En'ai" ?
Should "不对滴" be spelt as "Buduidi" or "Budui Di" ?
As we know "滴" is considered as another form of "的" , but should "不对滴" considered as ONE word or TWO ?
'Zhe Yang Xiu En Ai Shi Bu Dui Di' should be fine.

And~~~~ (A sum up?)
Pinyin has been accepted and welcomed in ranked maps. We can just continue it.
Example:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/89673

Cantonese can be used if the song is obviously based on Cantonese, or officially the song is regarded as Cantonese. In fact in this point I don't want to differ Cantonese from Chinese too much. All Chinese.

But if the Artist or the music is named in other languages, we need to use the official name. Especially here we need to share more with non-Chinese speakers and using the artist's English name would be a easier access to the singer or artist. But if the title is not officially translated I'd prefer use Pinyin because we cannot make sure the translation can be accepted by ppl or even whether it is accurate.
Example:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/39801

Hmm.. That's maybe all the cases I think. If you can't find the solution in a situation we can continue the discussion. Also feel free to pm me for this.
Atrue
osu! Alumni
1,017 posts
Joined July 2012
Atrue
And.. I think differing a word in Chinese is not so easy. Some words are still under discussion. For a safer usage I'd prefer not use words like
我们的爱 ' Women de Ai', but ' Wo Men De Ai'. That will make less error usage. Just personally speaking.
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower
Let's sum up for this:

For Chinese song titles, every character should be romanised into a single, capitalised, separated word.
凤凰传奇 - 最炫民族风
Zui Xuan Min Zu Feng O
ZuiXuanMinZuFeng X
ZuiXuan MinZuFeng X
zui xuan min zu feng X
Zuixuanminzufeng X
Zuixuan Minzu Feng X


If there are transliterated words in the title, the romanised title should use original word.
有钱的狗 - 沙发
Sofa O
Sha Fa X

The second one is still not well discussed... So it needs to be discussed

About another question:

Touhou songs. Their name always switch from romaji to direct translation, e.g.

Demetori - 感情の魔天楼 ～ World's End
Which one is correct?
Kanjou no Matenrou ~ World's End
Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End

Or:
ZUN - 黒い海に紅く ～ Legendary Fish
Which one is correct?
Kuroi Umi ni Akaku ~ Legendary Fish
Crimson in the Black Sea ~ Legendary Fish

The first one is confusing because the original song's name is bit different, as "感情の摩天楼 ～ Cosmic Mind"
About the second one, the former translation is ok so far to me, but there seems to be no official translation on the Internet, so it needs to be negotiated.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
Here's a question.

Romanising abbreviated words.

First an example:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/53857

Title:リモコン
Romanised Title:Remote Control

According to the rule on the first post. All foreign words are to be written in their original language. So something like アイスクリーム is to be written as Ice Cream.

So what do we do with abbreviations? Obviously looking at a dictionary, Rimokon means Remote Control, but what do we use as the title? The literal romanisation or the source language word it is abbreviated from?

ロープレ = Ropure or Roleplay
トイレ = Toire or Toilet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_a ... cted_words
More examples on this wiki page.

Some more examples. I'd just like some clarification on this. thanks :)
KSHR
osu! Alumni
1,668 posts
Joined July 2010
KSHR
By the way, トイレ is not an abbreviation!
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn

KSHR wrote:

By the way, トイレ is not an abbreviation!
I think I'm getting contractions and abbreviations messed up, and what shortened words for Japanese are actually them. I was going by my dictionary when I was looking up all this stuff X_x




So to rewrite this. What do we do about Contractions/Abbreviations. Use the Contracted/Abbreviated shortened form or use the original word it was made from?
Atrue
osu! Alumni
1,017 posts
Joined July 2012
Atrue
Just adding a reference for Japanese Romanisation: Romanization of Japanese

And what we've discussed and summarized in Chinese Romanisation:

Flower wrote:

For Chinese song titles, every character should be romanised into a single, capitalised, separated word.
If there are transliterated words in the title, the romanised title should use original word.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Discussion seems to have stopped here, yet strides were being made. Giving this one more week of discussion. Depending on the outcome, I'll either bubble or flame.
Akiyama Mizuki
2,710 posts
Joined March 2009
Akiyama Mizuki
As a Korean I think Korean titles must be translated. Romanization has a lot of difficulty, EVEN FOR KOREANS, to search the certain song.
And also it looks much better and clearer... Look at this

SapphireGhost wrote:

Korean Example: 싸이 - 젠틀맨
O GENTLEMAN
X jenteulmaen
Who would search gentleman as 'jenteulmaen'? This is pretty much messed up, and actually has pronunciation difference with real Korean.

so in conclusion; Using translated titles for Korean titles has much more accuracy and convenience than using romanized ones. If there isn't official English title, I think it must be translated.
Sonnyc
7,761 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
For Korean titles, "minimizing romanization and using translated version when possible" is what I think.

There are two big reasons

1. Acquiring official translated titles is difficult.
There are several genres of Korean titled musics but even kpop, the highest proportion, has difficulty in earning an officially translated version of the title. Most can be earned via the official Youtube channel, but rarely in their official websites or albums. However even when it's unable to get an information of any source, cases exist when searching wikipedia or other sites come out with a translated title(not official, but "consistently" used).

For example a song titled "바람에 날리는 편지" officially only has a Korean title, but has a commonly used certain translated title.

Some may think if earning an official translated title is that hard, then why not just romanizing. However then another problem exists,

2. The pronounciation of romanized Korean slightly differs with the actual Korean.
As long as I know, Chinese and Japanese have a strong relationship with its romanized form when pronouncing, but Korean does not. As a result, even Koreans have trouble in understanding the romanized Korean, also in searching maps. Therefore, the better if we can avoid cases when we have to use romanized Korean.

Regarding Korean titles, I think the ranking criteria that is needed should be "Korean titles should follow the official romanization method of Korea ('국어의 로마자 표기법' 문화관광부 고시 제2000-8 호) when getting romanized" which has been violated at https://osu.ppy.sh/s/315307 only to get ranked because there were no correlated ranking criteria. Other than that would rather suit as a guideline imo such as the folowing.

Translated titles that are commonly used are recommended for Korean titles. Romanization for Korean titles are done only when there are no reputable source of any translated version.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

So up to here was my opinion, and I guess two agreements can be made along my post and the original thread.
  1. Using the translated title when it is officially provided.
  2. Forbidding arbitrary translation when there is totally no source.
Hope an agreement can be made about 'inofficially translated but commonly used titles'.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.
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