Smoothie World wrote:

Then maybe this map shouldn't be a 8*+ map, but yet again, that's only me.

Ok, let's get peppy instead. Surely he can change the star rating algorithm just for this map so that it isn't 8 stars.

I think he meant maybe the patterns on this map shouldn't be so retarded that it pushes the map to be >8*. Stop trying to be a smart ass, it doesn't help your case whatsoever.

Smoothie World wrote:

I think you might want to actually click that and see what pattern it takes you to, and then correct yourself.

That's the "TAG4 Jumps" I was talking about.

I think he meant maybe the patterns on this map shouldn't be so retarded that it pushes the map to be >8*. Stop trying to be a smart ass, it doesn't help your case whatsoever.

If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

I think you might want to actually click that and see what pattern it takes you to, and then correct yourself.

That's the "TAG4 Jumps" I was talking about.

You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?

Smoothie World wrote:

If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.

That implies there is only one pattern that shouldn't be ranked in that entire map. If you change all the things that are stupid to a point that they are playable (IE every 280BPM massively spaced single tap pattern) then the map could be closer to a more accurate rating.
Right now it just looks like someone who has had the game installed for 2 months tried making a heavy metal map and over exaggerated everything to add 'challenge'.

Smoothie World wrote:

You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?

I don't have a lot of mapping knowledge, but I would like something more doable and not TAG4-like jumps

Minifrij wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.

That implies there is only one pattern that shouldn't be ranked in that entire map. If you change all the things that are stupid to a point that they are playable (IE every 280BPM massively spaced single tap pattern) then the map could be closer to a more accurate rating.
Right now it just looks like someone who has had the game installed for 2 months tried making a heavy metal map and over exaggerated everything to add 'challenge'.

Alright, I want to challenge you to something then. I want you to link all of the patterns that you feel should be changed, why they should be changed, and what you think would be the best pattern you can possibly change them to. If you can't do those three simple things, then you don't deserve to be bashing the map. If you do those 3 things, then cool, you positively impacted the map.

fieryrage wrote:

Pacemaker wrote:

Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up

because i'm sure a majority of these red votes are from people who this map isn't even intended for.

There we have it. This map was, in fact, intended for no one. The only people who are defending it don't care about playing it, they're just trying to get some point across for whatever reason

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?

I don't have a lot of mapping knowledge, but I would like something more doable and not TAG4-like jumps

So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.

Pacemaker wrote:

There we have it. This map was, in fact, intended for no one. The only people who are defending it don't care about playing it, they're just trying to get some point across for whatever reason

I played the map and enjoyed it. Your argument is invalid.

Smoothie World wrote:

So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.

Now it seems like you're implying that players are not allowed to have an opinion if they don't have any mapping knowledge. What I'm saying is that I think the jumps are too hard and they need to be toned down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and my opinion is that the jumps are way too difficult. It's indeed very simple.

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.

Now it seems like you're implying that players are not allowed to have an opinion if they don't have any mapping knowledge. What I'm saying is that I think the jumps are too hard and they need to be toned down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and my opinion is that the jumps are way too difficult. It's indeed very simple.

...but why do you feel that way? Elaborate. Go into the editor, go to the patterns you feel should be altered, and post them here, say why you feel they should be altered, and what the mapper can do better in that pattern. I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion without reasoning is worthless to share publicly.

Smoothie World wrote:

...but why do you feel that way? Elaborate. Go into the editor, go to the patterns you feel should be altered, and post them here, say why you feel they should be altered, and what the mapper can do better in that pattern. I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion without reasoning is worthless to share publicly.

I feel that way because... the jumps are too hard? That's my entire reasoning behind it, it seems very hard to hit those jumps, and I feel that they can be referenced towards the jumps used in TAG4 maps. Maybe I'll to it later today, if I have the time, right now it's 2:30 AM and I need some sleep badly.

Also, I'd like to apologize for being rude earlier, sorry.

Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.

jesus fucking christ guys.

the only real pressing issues, to me, are the od / ar choice (monstrata, i get apparition had notelocking issues mainly on the streams but believe me when i say the high bpm jumps here have notelocking as a huge issue -- the ar helps a bit with the notelocking because you get less of a chance to react early to the note (causing the notelock) but since you want to keep that due to the slow part at the end..yea) and the slider spam starting at 02:26:362 (1) - since this is near unplayable. it'd work a lot better playability wise if the slider ends / heads were swapped so you don't have to move the cursor as much. i didn't originally post this in my mod because i didn't feel like it was a huge issue, but then i actually played it and i almost always consistently fail here due to how much shit is going on (low ar here doesn't help either).

so, now that we actually have something to work on, let's continue building on some issues we think should be addressed instead of shitposting, yeah? after all this is a community driven ranking process and shitposting does literally nothing to help anyone.

Smoothie World wrote:

Alright, I want to challenge you to something then. I want you to link all of the patterns that you feel should be changed, why they should be changed, and what you think would be the best pattern you can possibly change them to. If you can't do those three simple things, then you don't deserve to be bashing the map. If you do those 3 things, then cool, you positively impacted the map.

I'll do my best. Not a mapper, but here are some of the things I think are pretty ridiculous.

00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - For such a gradual increase in the main vocals, I think that the spacing going from |-|-|-|--|--|--|--| is pretty silly. It implies that a massive change has happened in the vocal line, when in fact the vocals had only just began to shout by the end. Perhaps a more gradual increase of spacing would be in order, mainly starting from the second round pattern to map it more closely.
In addition to this, and it may just be personal preference (I'm not too big of a fan of repeated patterns), but I think the pattern should be changed from two pentagons. Perhaps something closer to an S pattern following the screen would be better, as the flow already moving from the cursor could carry round in a more natural movement than jagged circles.

00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - I believe that these jumps are simply too spaced out for their BPM. I can understand why they are like that in terms of the feel of the song at that moment, however going from the top left corner to the bottom right by the last jump is personally too much.

00:48:623 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - When essentially nothing happens here throughout the song to increase the intensity (the vocalist changes, that's about it) I see no reason for the jumps to be increasing in size so dramatically. It seems to just be arbitrarily increasing the difficulty just for a high star rating and to add 'challenge'.

01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - This is just slider spam, just like the pattern after it. I can't think of a better way to do this, though I can imagine either replacing the sliders in a way similar to what can be found in this grumd map* or by delaying every second slider and having them repeat once, whilst lowering the space between each slider could be better. Once again, I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way it is currently is is just spam.

02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - etc. Same shit as above.

02:33:171 (1) - This completely kills any energy built up in the previous parts of the map. That, and it is essentially impossible to know that it is there without playing the map prior to it, causing an almost definite slider break. Perhaps replacing with a spinner could be better.

02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Tag 4 jumps. I'm sure you already know why I don't like these; they are stupidly spaced and are most likely impossible to hit without complete luck.

Other than that, the sliders are extremely ugly. Then again, if that's the A E S T H E T I C the map is going for then I suppose I can't particularly question it.

*E:

fieryrage wrote:

it'd work a lot better playability wise if the slider ends / heads were swapped so you don't have to move the cursor as much. i didn't originally post this in my mod because i didn't feel like it was a huge issue, but then i actually played it and i almost always consistently fail here due to how much shit is going on (low ar here doesn't help either).

Yeah essentially what this guy said.

Monstrata wrote:

Maybe people downvoted cuz they didn't like me? or that they thought the song was too hard? You can't determine the intention for someone's 1 vote xD. Loctav currently has the most downvoted map on osu. Does that make him or the map bad? No. Some taiko BN's tell me t's actually good... but you can clearly see people DTNF'ing it with like 50 points just to downvote to spite him.

Not in this case and you know it well, people always rate your map goods, it's just that this map is going too far, this is an offense for all these mappers that work alot to get their map rankeds, they don't feel fun with this. I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.
The community reaction is really negative towards this map, that should be enough for you and the QAT team to don't rank this map, since is a community based system..


I'll mod this later as well if I can get the time to do it

Warpyc wrote:

Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.

Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?

Gladi was mention about this and you replied
01:36:505 (2) - The vocals are 1/3 here. Mapping this on a blue tick to somehow follow a bit of vocals is already pretty silly as it stands, but it's also completely wrong in this occasion. No, its 1/4

i totally disagree with your opinion (monstrata's) it's completely 1/3. On 1/4 section, it's just a drum but you're following the vocals

edit : oh well, it 00:00:838 - 05:00:988 -

the break that not mapped is from 00:14:408 - until 00:17:766 - that feels annoying for me

i would add more .-. the ending of this map is quite silly when the music finished on 05:00:596 - and monstrata ends the spinner on 05:00:988 - like somehow it's allowed at all for extending the drain time at all.

.-.

don't know if its been mentioned before but 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - is one of the worst patterns you can introduce here, its such an ugly motion and probably impossible to snap to, causing it to have no intensity, which the song calls for. its also pretty annoying to read for no reason

00:41:339 (5) - this slider also feels way too out of place, very annoying to play after hitting the jumps

Pacemaker wrote:

jawns wrote:

Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?

We are approaching the bottom aren't we. The impact's gonna hurt

Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.

Enkidu wrote:

Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.

Well, as I take it, in the context of the post he quoted, he meant maps having any aesthetic value, not being outright beautiful. And to allow ranked maps be "ugly because the song is ugly" sounds like edgy horseshit to me

well i think this map is decent to be reanked.
but for real there will be no players to actually play this (or even pass)

Pacemaker wrote:

Enkidu wrote:

Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.

Well, as I take it, in the context of the post he quoted, he meant maps having any aesthetic value, not being outright beautiful. And to allow ranked maps be "ugly because the song is ugly" sounds like edgy horseshit to me

Again, not really. The point of mapping is to map a song the way you /feel/ it should be mapped. If someone feels like a map should be ugly, they should map it to look ugly.

Pacemaker wrote:

fieryrage wrote:

Hey, guys, user rating means literally nothing because half of the time it ends up in a circlejerk instead of showcasing the actual map quality.

just saying

Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up

What it means? It just means that this beatmap was specifically targeted by the osu reddit community to downvote it, if you dont see that, then you're a sad person with low intellect, which you are anyways when I look at your poor attempts to "burn" people. Idk this map, don't really care either but hating on something just because it gets qualified is just stupid. I don't go around and tell people to stop eating tomatoes just because I don't like them.

What's so damn hard in avoiding something you don't like? Your opinion isnt superior to anyone else's so don't act like you're some godsent messias.

Can we stay on topic and either speak about the map itself in a constructive way or leave the thread?

Thanks.

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...

I'll just leave my 2 cents here as someone who's seen a lot of shit in the past 4 years, has been an avid player, mapped about 100~ different mapsets (not including the maps where I just started the first few seconds only to drop it afterwards), and has modded all kinds of different maps to varying degrees of success.

Looking at this this map, there's one thing no one can deny: It's mapped entirely for the novelty of the speed, slider velocity and erratic movements, as well as ridiculous difficulty.
This is not an inherently bad thing. There have been many people who have done similar things, and there's generally always some kind of backlash, just like with this here.

I think that if this concept is explored and executed properly and with caution, it can result in high quality mapping just like any other.

However I feel that this is not the case here. The concept and idea is fine, but the execution is sloppy. The hitobject placement, the patterns and sliders are deliberately unappealing to make the map has as much of a disjointed feeling as the music. To me, this is rather lazy. Just because the music is fast paced and wild doesn't mean you have to make the mapping ugly to make it fitting. It's not like there's no continuity or consistency in the music, so having the quite literally jumpo around in patterns randomly doesn't seem approppriate to me. Finding the right balance between,clean fast paced jump patterns and literally just putting back and forth fullscreen jumps is something that would increase this maps quality I think.
Then there's the second half of the song, i.e. 02:57:257 - and onward. I feel like going with your idea of mapping you would want this to be much more clean than the previous half because of the contrast in tone and you kiiinda did that by not using those stupid (sorry) sliders anymore, but then you mess up easy blankets like 03:16:894 (5,1) - which feels really offputting, or rather, lazy. Overall it feels like the second half was lacking in concept and just rushed to finish the diff quickly.


Then there's the issue of overmapping. 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - Honestly I have absolutely no idea what you're even trying to do with these. As far as my ears are concerned, there's no 1/4 going on here, and even if you're just going for emphasis on the "vocals", this sounds REALLY awkward, especially since the hitsounds on the slidertails are of the same strength than those on the sliderheads. This literally screams "yeah for the lulz". It isn't supported by the music in any way and should frankly be completely trashed before this map is going for actual ranking. That would apply 02:26:362 - to this entire section of course.

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...

Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.

Bakari wrote:

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...

Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.

so is the "4:48 drain time" a glitch?

Ora wrote:

Bakari wrote:

Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.

so is the "4:48 drain time" a glitch?

No, osu! site just doesn't take into account final spinners in any map.

Zare wrote:

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.

I'm gonna be frank here and say that this argument has no place in a beatmap-thread. This is an issue with the ranking system, so take this argument where it belongs and away from here. If the map is rankable, it deserves to be ranked. I feel like many people here are getting sidetracked. I don't care if this is monstrata's or anyone's map, and neither should you, if you want to retain any sense of objectivity. You should look at the map and criticize it as a map - not as "a message that you believe monstrata sends to other mappers and that can only be understood by looking at the bigger picture, aka a flawed ranking system that favors certain mappers more than others".

It's a map, and a good one at that. Not a pretty map, for most people also not a playable map, but hey. I hope it gets ranked and I hope I can be a good enough player to take it on some day.

Railey2 wrote:

Zare wrote:

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.

I'm gonna be frank here and say that this argument has no place in a beatmap-thread. This is an issue with the ranking system, so take this argument where it belongs and away from here. If the map is rankable, it deserves to be ranked. I feel like many people here are getting sidetracked. I don't care if this is monstrata's or anyone's map, and neither should you, if you want to retain any sense of objectivity. You should look at the map and criticize it as a map - not as "a message that you believe monstrata sends to other mappers and that can only be understood by looking at the bigger picture, aka a flawed ranking system that favors certain mappers more than others".

It's a map, and a good one at that. Not a pretty map, for most people also not a playable map, but hey. I hope it gets ranked and I hope I can be a good enough player to take it on some day.

Hence my point that this map could be much better if it had gotten the proper treament in development. I think it could be high quality and suitable for ranking, but isn't. I merely expanded on this and it's reason.

my opinion is barely worth anything, but i honestly feel like it's just a weird song to map

it basically plays like two entirely seperate songs, it's very frontloaded - with the somewhat recent trend of arbitrarily cutting song lengths, my initial idea was to slice off the slow part, tone down the difficulty a bit and maybe do a full spread? i do understand that full spreads are a lot of effort, but i think a lot of people would be happier to see even a 5.5-6.5 diff on this - 8.3* only is kind of extreme, especially when you had to do spinner bullshit to get to approval time.

i love the song

dreamless wrote:

my opinion is barely worth anything, but i honestly feel like it's just a weird song to map

it basically plays like two entirely seperate songs, it's very frontloaded - with the somewhat recent trend of arbitrarily cutting song lengths, my initial idea was to slice off the slow part, tone down the difficulty a bit and maybe do a full spread? i do understand that full spreads are a lot of effort, but i think a lot of people would be happier to see even a 5.5-6.5 diff on this - 8.3* only is kind of extreme, especially when you had to do spinner bullshit to get to approval time.

If you cut out the slow part, it'd sound really weird to have it end so abruptly.

Bakari wrote:

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...

Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?

Looking through the map, I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.

Please have your discussion stick to the map only and anything not constructive would be removed.

EDIT:

hoozimajiget wrote:

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?

I am curious about this.

00:21:206 (1,2) - aww this nc setting didn't felt cool enough. Starting at (2) would've divided the 1/3 and the 1/2 better, and fit the new vocals better. Didn't spotted that b4.

IamKwaN wrote:

EDIT:

hoozimajiget wrote:

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?

I am curious about this.

Monstrata artificially added the applause at the end.