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jawns
109 posts
Joined October 2013
jawns

Nelly wrote:

User ratings are just the same as making a review to the game by yourself but instead its a map. The user should feel a comfortable notes and patterns not this miss kick
If we talk about user ratings, then really, shouldn't we look at the positive ones?
If you don't like a map, you might vote 1 star, and then never play it again.
However, the user ratings tells me, that at least 19 people enjoyed this map. This is more than the latest ranked map. Surely, if a lot of people enjoy the map, that's enough reason to rank it, regardless of how many people dislike it?
usephysics
1 post
Joined December 2015
usephysics

Smoothie World wrote:

You're listening to a VOCAL minority, not an OVERWHELMING majority. Reddit is not an OVERWHELMING portion of the community.
Even though reddit isnt a large portion of the community, 99% of people on Reddit agree this map shouldn't be ranked. And since anyone can post on Reddit and its not like theres a serious bias against monstrata, the percentage can reflect on the entirety of the community

And I know circlejerking is a factor, but the thing is people on Reddit really like Monstrata, and also osu isnt really something you circlejerk about
QTS
25 posts
Joined September 2013
QTS

Smoothie World wrote:

Look at Shiirn's most recent post. Not gonna explain this one again. He explains it well.
Agreed.

Smoothie World wrote:

There's not a single stream over 5 notes. Stop pulling false facts out of your ass. Also, what do you even consider "TAG-4 Jumps?" I'm going to assume you mean cross-screen jumps, which there are a couple, but they match the music and aren't consistent throughout the map. They are only when the song calls for them.
Didn't mean streams, meant sliders. I'm not too familar with forum posting so I'll go ahead and snatch what I meant from someone else:

Minifrij wrote:

02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1)
This is the pathern I was talking about.

Smoothie World wrote:

Ok, let's just call up the artists of the song and ask them to scream for another 2-3 minutes so we have a more interesting second half of the song.
Then maybe this map shouldn't be a 8*+ map, but yet again, that's only me.

Smoothie World wrote:

I'm surprised. You seem to be sooo knowledgeable about the community's overall opinion, but you failed to notice the mod I just posted before you made all these bullshit statements.
Yup missed that Mr. Douchebag.

Going to sleep now, maybe I'll reply to you tomorrows, pce.
Last edited by QTS , edited 1 time in total.
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-

usephysics wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

You're listening to a VOCAL minority, not an OVERWHELMING majority. Reddit is not an OVERWHELMING portion of the community.
Even though reddit isnt a large portion of the community, 99% of people on Reddit agree this map shouldn't be ranked. And since anyone can post on Reddit and its not like theres a serious bias against monstrata, the percentage can reflect on the entirety of the community

And I know circlejerking is a factor, but the thing is people on Reddit really like Monstrata, and also osu isnt really something you circlejerk about
Reddit is, again, a vocal minority. The people in support of the map aren't gonna comment "I like this map," and if they do, they will just get downvoted to shit and buried and they know it. They're "hidden," if you will. There's plenty of people on Reddit who like the map, but they simply aren't posting it. I want you to go into Reddit, and come back and send me one comment from the thread from a person that has contributed to the map via a mod.
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-
Didn't mean streams, meant sliders. I'm not too familar with forum posting so I'll go ahead and snatch what I meant from someone else:

Minifrij wrote:

02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1)
This is the pathern I was talking about.
I think you might want to actually click that and see what pattern it takes you to, and then correct yourself.

Then maybe this map shouldn't be a 8*+ map, but yet again, that's only me.
Ok, let's get peppy instead. Surely he can change the star rating algorithm just for this map so that it isn't 8 stars.

Yup missed that Mr. Douchebag.

Going to sleep now, maybe I'll reply to you tomorrows, pce
Nice creative insult :) I'm deeply offended.
uee
36 posts
Joined December 2013
uee

Smoothie World wrote:

Then maybe this map shouldn't be a 8*+ map, but yet again, that's only me.
Ok, let's get peppy instead. Surely he can change the star rating algorithm just for this map so that it isn't 8 stars.
I think he meant maybe the patterns on this map shouldn't be so retarded that it pushes the map to be >8*. Stop trying to be a smart ass, it doesn't help your case whatsoever.
QTS
25 posts
Joined September 2013
QTS

Smoothie World wrote:

I think you might want to actually click that and see what pattern it takes you to, and then correct yourself.
That's the "TAG4 Jumps" I was talking about.
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-
I think he meant maybe the patterns on this map shouldn't be so retarded that it pushes the map to be >8*. Stop trying to be a smart ass, it doesn't help your case whatsoever.
If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

I think you might want to actually click that and see what pattern it takes you to, and then correct yourself.
That's the "TAG4 Jumps" I was talking about.
You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?
uee
36 posts
Joined December 2013
uee

Smoothie World wrote:

If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.
That implies there is only one pattern that shouldn't be ranked in that entire map. If you change all the things that are stupid to a point that they are playable (IE every 280BPM massively spaced single tap pattern) then the map could be closer to a more accurate rating.
Right now it just looks like someone who has had the game installed for 2 months tried making a heavy metal map and over exaggerated everything to add 'challenge'.
QTS
25 posts
Joined September 2013
QTS

Smoothie World wrote:

You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?
I don't have a lot of mapping knowledge, but I would like something more doable and not TAG4-like jumps
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-

Minifrij wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

If that pattern is deleted entirely, the star rating goes down an entire 0.09 stars. It's gonna be over 8 stars either way.
That implies there is only one pattern that shouldn't be ranked in that entire map. If you change all the things that are stupid to a point that they are playable (IE every 280BPM massively spaced single tap pattern) then the map could be closer to a more accurate rating.
Right now it just looks like someone who has had the game installed for 2 months tried making a heavy metal map and over exaggerated everything to add 'challenge'.
Alright, I want to challenge you to something then. I want you to link all of the patterns that you feel should be changed, why they should be changed, and what you think would be the best pattern you can possibly change them to. If you can't do those three simple things, then you don't deserve to be bashing the map. If you do those 3 things, then cool, you positively impacted the map.
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Pacemaker

fieryrage wrote:

Pacemaker wrote:

Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up
because i'm sure a majority of these red votes are from people who this map isn't even intended for.
There we have it. This map was, in fact, intended for no one. The only people who are defending it don't care about playing it, they're just trying to get some point across for whatever reason
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

You said slider jumps but ok. Do you have a suggestion to change them? What pattern would you otherwise suggest?
I don't have a lot of mapping knowledge, but I would like something more doable and not TAG4-like jumps
So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.
jawns
109 posts
Joined October 2013
jawns

Pacemaker wrote:

There we have it. This map was, in fact, intended for no one. The only people who are defending it don't care about playing it, they're just trying to get some point across for whatever reason
I played the map and enjoyed it. Your argument is invalid.
QTS
25 posts
Joined September 2013
QTS

Smoothie World wrote:

So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.
Now it seems like you're implying that players are not allowed to have an opinion if they don't have any mapping knowledge. What I'm saying is that I think the jumps are too hard and they need to be toned down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and my opinion is that the jumps are way too difficult. It's indeed very simple.
-Visceral-
644 posts
Joined August 2012
-Visceral-

QTS wrote:

Smoothie World wrote:

So basically, you went through all of this, and you don't even have a solution. I recommend shutting your mouth unless you have something positive to contribute. You can't just say something is bad and then not have a reason behind it and then use your lack of mapping knowledge as an excuse. If you don't have mapping knowledge or anything to contribute, then don't say anything. It's very simple.
Now it seems like you're implying that players are not allowed to have an opinion if they don't have any mapping knowledge. What I'm saying is that I think the jumps are too hard and they need to be toned down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and my opinion is that the jumps are way too difficult. It's indeed very simple.
...but why do you feel that way? Elaborate. Go into the editor, go to the patterns you feel should be altered, and post them here, say why you feel they should be altered, and what the mapper can do better in that pattern. I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion without reasoning is worthless to share publicly.
QTS
25 posts
Joined September 2013
QTS

Smoothie World wrote:

...but why do you feel that way? Elaborate. Go into the editor, go to the patterns you feel should be altered, and post them here, say why you feel they should be altered, and what the mapper can do better in that pattern. I do believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion without reasoning is worthless to share publicly.
I feel that way because... the jumps are too hard? That's my entire reasoning behind it, it seems very hard to hit those jumps, and I feel that they can be referenced towards the jumps used in TAG4 maps. Maybe I'll to it later today, if I have the time, right now it's 2:30 AM and I need some sleep badly.

Also, I'd like to apologize for being rude earlier, sorry.
Warpyc
406 posts
Joined August 2013
Warpyc
Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.
fieryrage
Former osu! Champion: 2023
1,458 posts
Joined November 2013
fieryrage
jesus fucking christ guys.

the only real pressing issues, to me, are the od / ar choice (monstrata, i get apparition had notelocking issues mainly on the streams but believe me when i say the high bpm jumps here have notelocking as a huge issue -- the ar helps a bit with the notelocking because you get less of a chance to react early to the note (causing the notelock) but since you want to keep that due to the slow part at the end..yea) and the slider spam starting at 02:26:362 (1) - since this is near unplayable. it'd work a lot better playability wise if the slider ends / heads were swapped so you don't have to move the cursor as much. i didn't originally post this in my mod because i didn't feel like it was a huge issue, but then i actually played it and i almost always consistently fail here due to how much shit is going on (low ar here doesn't help either).

so, now that we actually have something to work on, let's continue building on some issues we think should be addressed instead of shitposting, yeah? after all this is a community driven ranking process and shitposting does literally nothing to help anyone.
Last edited by fieryrage , edited 3 times in total.
uee
36 posts
Joined December 2013
uee

Smoothie World wrote:

Alright, I want to challenge you to something then. I want you to link all of the patterns that you feel should be changed, why they should be changed, and what you think would be the best pattern you can possibly change them to. If you can't do those three simple things, then you don't deserve to be bashing the map. If you do those 3 things, then cool, you positively impacted the map.
I'll do my best. Not a mapper, but here are some of the things I think are pretty ridiculous.

00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - For such a gradual increase in the main vocals, I think that the spacing going from |-|-|-|--|--|--|--| is pretty silly. It implies that a massive change has happened in the vocal line, when in fact the vocals had only just began to shout by the end. Perhaps a more gradual increase of spacing would be in order, mainly starting from the second round pattern to map it more closely.
In addition to this, and it may just be personal preference (I'm not too big of a fan of repeated patterns), but I think the pattern should be changed from two pentagons. Perhaps something closer to an S pattern following the screen would be better, as the flow already moving from the cursor could carry round in a more natural movement than jagged circles.

00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - I believe that these jumps are simply too spaced out for their BPM. I can understand why they are like that in terms of the feel of the song at that moment, however going from the top left corner to the bottom right by the last jump is personally too much.

00:48:623 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - When essentially nothing happens here throughout the song to increase the intensity (the vocalist changes, that's about it) I see no reason for the jumps to be increasing in size so dramatically. It seems to just be arbitrarily increasing the difficulty just for a high star rating and to add 'challenge'.

01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - This is just slider spam, just like the pattern after it. I can't think of a better way to do this, though I can imagine either replacing the sliders in a way similar to what can be found in this grumd map* or by delaying every second slider and having them repeat once, whilst lowering the space between each slider could be better. Once again, I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way it is currently is is just spam.

02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - etc. Same shit as above.

02:33:171 (1) - This completely kills any energy built up in the previous parts of the map. That, and it is essentially impossible to know that it is there without playing the map prior to it, causing an almost definite slider break. Perhaps replacing with a spinner could be better.

02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Tag 4 jumps. I'm sure you already know why I don't like these; they are stupidly spaced and are most likely impossible to hit without complete luck.

Other than that, the sliders are extremely ugly. Then again, if that's the A E S T H E T I C the map is going for then I suppose I can't particularly question it.

*E:

fieryrage wrote:

it'd work a lot better playability wise if the slider ends / heads were swapped so you don't have to move the cursor as much. i didn't originally post this in my mod because i didn't feel like it was a huge issue, but then i actually played it and i almost always consistently fail here due to how much shit is going on (low ar here doesn't help either).
Yeah essentially what this guy said.
Last edited by uee , edited 2 times in total.
Natsu
8,088 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Monstrata wrote:

Maybe people downvoted cuz they didn't like me? or that they thought the song was too hard? You can't determine the intention for someone's 1 vote xD. Loctav currently has the most downvoted map on osu. Does that make him or the map bad? No. Some taiko BN's tell me t's actually good... but you can clearly see people DTNF'ing it with like 50 points just to downvote to spite him.
Not in this case and you know it well, people always rate your map goods, it's just that this map is going too far, this is an offense for all these mappers that work alot to get their map rankeds, they don't feel fun with this. I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.
The community reaction is really negative towards this map, that should be enough for you and the QAT team to don't rank this map, since is a community based system..


I'll mod this later as well if I can get the time to do it
jawns
109 posts
Joined October 2013
jawns

Warpyc wrote:

Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.
Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?
Niko-nyan
1,990 posts
Joined June 2011
Niko-nyan
Gladi was mention about this and you replied
01:36:505 (2) - The vocals are 1/3 here. Mapping this on a blue tick to somehow follow a bit of vocals is already pretty silly as it stands, but it's also completely wrong in this occasion. No, its 1/4

i totally disagree with your opinion (monstrata's) it's completely 1/3. On 1/4 section, it's just a drum but you're following the vocals

edit : oh well, it 00:00:838 - 05:00:988 -

the break that not mapped is from 00:14:408 - until 00:17:766 - that feels annoying for me

i would add more .-. the ending of this map is quite silly when the music finished on 05:00:596 - and monstrata ends the spinner on 05:00:988 - like somehow it's allowed at all for extending the drain time at all.

.-.
Last edited by Niko-nyan , edited 2 times in total.
mithew
397 posts
Joined April 2013
mithew
don't know if its been mentioned before but 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - is one of the worst patterns you can introduce here, its such an ugly motion and probably impossible to snap to, causing it to have no intensity, which the song calls for. its also pretty annoying to read for no reason

00:41:339 (5) - this slider also feels way too out of place, very annoying to play after hitting the jumps
Last edited by mithew , edited 1 time in total.
Enkidu
97 posts
Joined May 2014
Enkidu

Pacemaker wrote:

jawns wrote:

Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?
We are approaching the bottom aren't we. The impact's gonna hurt
Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Pacemaker

Enkidu wrote:

Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.
Well, as I take it, in the context of the post he quoted, he meant maps having any aesthetic value, not being outright beautiful. And to allow ranked maps be "ugly because the song is ugly" sounds like edgy horseshit to me
hi-mei
785 posts
Joined June 2014
hi-mei
well i think this map is decent to be reanked.
but for real there will be no players to actually play this (or even pass)
Enkidu
97 posts
Joined May 2014
Enkidu

Pacemaker wrote:

Enkidu wrote:

Not really. A map really doesn't have to be "beautiful" to be good.
Well, as I take it, in the context of the post he quoted, he meant maps having any aesthetic value, not being outright beautiful. And to allow ranked maps be "ugly because the song is ugly" sounds like edgy horseshit to me

Again, not really. The point of mapping is to map a song the way you /feel/ it should be mapped. If someone feels like a map should be ugly, they should map it to look ugly.
DiamondRain
DiamondRain

Pacemaker wrote:

fieryrage wrote:

Hey, guys, user rating means literally nothing because half of the time it ends up in a circlejerk instead of showcasing the actual map quality.

just saying
Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up


What it means? It just means that this beatmap was specifically targeted by the osu reddit community to downvote it, if you dont see that, then you're a sad person with low intellect, which you are anyways when I look at your poor attempts to "burn" people. Idk this map, don't really care either but hating on something just because it gets qualified is just stupid. I don't go around and tell people to stop eating tomatoes just because I don't like them.

What's so damn hard in avoiding something you don't like? Your opinion isnt superior to anyone else's so don't act like you're some godsent messias.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,061 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy
Can we stay on topic and either speak about the map itself in a constructive way or leave the thread?

Thanks.
UrnuryMegiken
2 posts
Joined January 2014
UrnuryMegiken
Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I'll just leave my 2 cents here as someone who's seen a lot of shit in the past 4 years, has been an avid player, mapped about 100~ different mapsets (not including the maps where I just started the first few seconds only to drop it afterwards), and has modded all kinds of different maps to varying degrees of success.

Looking at this this map, there's one thing no one can deny: It's mapped entirely for the novelty of the speed, slider velocity and erratic movements, as well as ridiculous difficulty.
This is not an inherently bad thing. There have been many people who have done similar things, and there's generally always some kind of backlash, just like with this here.

I think that if this concept is explored and executed properly and with caution, it can result in high quality mapping just like any other.

However I feel that this is not the case here. The concept and idea is fine, but the execution is sloppy. The hitobject placement, the patterns and sliders are deliberately unappealing to make the map has as much of a disjointed feeling as the music. To me, this is rather lazy. Just because the music is fast paced and wild doesn't mean you have to make the mapping ugly to make it fitting. It's not like there's no continuity or consistency in the music, so having the quite literally jumpo around in patterns randomly doesn't seem approppriate to me. Finding the right balance between,clean fast paced jump patterns and literally just putting back and forth fullscreen jumps is something that would increase this maps quality I think.
Then there's the second half of the song, i.e. 02:57:257 - and onward. I feel like going with your idea of mapping you would want this to be much more clean than the previous half because of the contrast in tone and you kiiinda did that by not using those stupid (sorry) sliders anymore, but then you mess up easy blankets like 03:16:894 (5,1) - which feels really offputting, or rather, lazy. Overall it feels like the second half was lacking in concept and just rushed to finish the diff quickly.


Then there's the issue of overmapping. 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - Honestly I have absolutely no idea what you're even trying to do with these. As far as my ears are concerned, there's no 1/4 going on here, and even if you're just going for emphasis on the "vocals", this sounds REALLY awkward, especially since the hitsounds on the slidertails are of the same strength than those on the sliderheads. This literally screams "yeah for the lulz". It isn't supported by the music in any way and should frankly be completely trashed before this map is going for actual ranking. That would apply 02:26:362 - to this entire section of course.

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,061 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...
Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.
Ora
959 posts
Joined November 2014
Ora

Bakari wrote:

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...
Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.
so is the "4:48 drain time" a glitch?
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,247 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance

Ora wrote:

Bakari wrote:

Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.
so is the "4:48 drain time" a glitch?
No, osu! site just doesn't take into account final spinners in any map.
Railey2
515 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

Zare wrote:

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.
I'm gonna be frank here and say that this argument has no place in a beatmap-thread. This is an issue with the ranking system, so take this argument where it belongs and away from here. If the map is rankable, it deserves to be ranked. I feel like many people here are getting sidetracked. I don't care if this is monstrata's or anyone's map, and neither should you, if you want to retain any sense of objectivity. You should look at the map and criticize it as a map - not as "a message that you believe monstrata sends to other mappers and that can only be understood by looking at the bigger picture, aka a flawed ranking system that favors certain mappers more than others".

It's a map, and a good one at that. Not a pretty map, for most people also not a playable map, but hey. I hope it gets ranked and I hope I can be a good enough player to take it on some day.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Railey2 wrote:

Zare wrote:

Generally this map gives off a vibe of "because I can", and I don't think that way of thinking should be encouraged. The modding and ranking process right now is pretty fucking frustrating for people with smaller influence or less popularity, and while I'm usually the last one to tell anyone not to make use of their popularity, because in a community like this that means you have worked hard to achieve that status, I really think this map in in its current state in particular is just equivalent to shoving a giant dick into anyone's face that has trouble moving forward much less controversial maps. (long sentence sorry)
Basically what I'm trying to say, I'd be fine with this going for rank if I felt like it had gotten the effort, time and care it needed to really be of quality, which I think isn't the case right now.
I'm gonna be frank here and say that this argument has no place in a beatmap-thread. This is an issue with the ranking system, so take this argument where it belongs and away from here. If the map is rankable, it deserves to be ranked. I feel like many people here are getting sidetracked. I don't care if this is monstrata's or anyone's map, and neither should you, if you want to retain any sense of objectivity. You should look at the map and criticize it as a map - not as "a message that you believe monstrata sends to other mappers and that can only be understood by looking at the bigger picture, aka a flawed ranking system that favors certain mappers more than others".

It's a map, and a good one at that. Not a pretty map, for most people also not a playable map, but hey. I hope it gets ranked and I hope I can be a good enough player to take it on some day.
Hence my point that this map could be much better if it had gotten the proper treament in development. I think it could be high quality and suitable for ranking, but isn't. I merely expanded on this and it's reason.
Last edited by Zare , edited 1 time in total.
semantics
12 posts
Joined June 2013
semantics
my opinion is barely worth anything, but i honestly feel like it's just a weird song to map

it basically plays like two entirely seperate songs, it's very frontloaded - with the somewhat recent trend of arbitrarily cutting song lengths, my initial idea was to slice off the slow part, tone down the difficulty a bit and maybe do a full spread? i do understand that full spreads are a lot of effort, but i think a lot of people would be happier to see even a 5.5-6.5 diff on this - 8.3* only is kind of extreme, especially when you had to do spinner bullshit to get to approval time.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
i love the song :D
7ambda
2,596 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

dreamless wrote:

my opinion is barely worth anything, but i honestly feel like it's just a weird song to map

it basically plays like two entirely seperate songs, it's very frontloaded - with the somewhat recent trend of arbitrarily cutting song lengths, my initial idea was to slice off the slow part, tone down the difficulty a bit and maybe do a full spread? i do understand that full spreads are a lot of effort, but i think a lot of people would be happier to see even a 5.5-6.5 diff on this - 8.3* only is kind of extreme, especially when you had to do spinner bullshit to get to approval time.
If you cut out the slow part, it'd sound really weird to have it end so abruptly.
hoozimajiget
45 posts
Joined December 2009
hoozimajiget

Bakari wrote:

UrnuryMegiken wrote:

Isn't this unrankable without a full difficulty spread? It's not 5 minutes long...
Look at the time when the last spinner finishes, then move to the time when the map starts. It's something around 5:00:100.
But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
IamKwaN
osu! Alumni
3,905 posts
Joined August 2012
IamKwaN
Looking through the map, I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.

Please have your discussion stick to the map only and anything not constructive would be removed.

EDIT:

hoozimajiget wrote:

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
I am curious about this.
Sonnyc
7,761 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
00:21:206 (1,2) - aww this nc setting didn't felt cool enough. Starting at (2) would've divided the 1/3 and the 1/2 better, and fit the new vocals better. Didn't spotted that b4.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

IamKwaN wrote:

EDIT:

hoozimajiget wrote:

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
I am curious about this.
Monstrata artificially added the applause at the end.
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL

Pacemaker wrote:

There we have it. This map was, in fact, intended for no one. The only people who are defending it don't care about playing it, they're just trying to get some point across for whatever reason
most people might gave this red vote because of how something like this can be qualified in a few months while there are many, i mean many good maps that is waiting on the pending section. even fort told me that every BN is afraid to qualify his map even though most people playing it gave positive feedbacks
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Chippy
117 posts
Joined January 2013
Chippy

IamKwaN wrote:

Looking through the map, I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.

Please have your discussion stick to the map only and anything not constructive would be removed.

EDIT:

hoozimajiget wrote:

But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
I am curious about this.
This is a very vague DQ reason "I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.", it gives the mapper very vague direction on how to make the map rankable again lol.
Last edited by Chippy , edited 1 time in total.
Mindwaves
69 posts
Joined September 2010
Mindwaves
But the actual song length noted in the album track listing is 4:46. So how are there 14 seconds of artificially generated length?
the answer is in the question!

"artificially generated length"

how neat is that? (fucking hell... :cry: )
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Topic Starter
Monstrata
I'll give a reply to all mods tomorrow~ Thanks for the dq KwaN. It was going to happen anyways haha.

The song length is extended slightly, though the applause is actually part of the song, on the album version. I just did some tasteful editing.
IamKwaN
osu! Alumni
3,905 posts
Joined August 2012
IamKwaN

Chippy wrote:

This is a very vague DQ reason "I find some of the inputs provided by the community valid.", it gives the mapper very vague direction on how to make the map rankable again lol.
I would say it's not an issue of rankability. It is the community having opinions on the map. We, the QAT, going through the report and found it valid, so we disqualify. Mapper has to discuss with the community on previous (and some future) mods.

So, if you have something contribute to the map, please do not wait!
ac8129464363
1,566 posts
Joined October 2013
ac8129464363
isn't that the same thing as what's uploaded on BSS with the hitsounds replaced? I think you're mistaken because your diff is in the same folder and those hitsounds got replaced for both
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Topic Starter
Monstrata

deetz wrote:

that's the same thing as what's uploaded on BSS with the hitsounds replaced! I think you're mistaken because your diff is in the same folder and those hitsounds got replaced for both
RoX2_Fang
RoX2_Fang
LOVE this song
LOVE this map
Spaghetti
1,118 posts
Joined August 2014
Spaghetti

Noah Alcubierre wrote:

I'd have personally preferred that current mods are not simply entirely rejected in sake of defending the qualification status of the map but instead noted and considered as a real suggestion in case this map gets dq'd so the map COULD be better in a way that the community won't spam a load of "fuck you"s at the map.
Stuff like this is REALLY bugging me. Monstrata said he's gonna take a look at 2 of the posts in-depth because they can be issues. For every other post, he declined every point with concrete reasoning.

Just because someone modded your map doesn't mean their points are valid!!11!1
strickluke
433 posts
Joined March 2015
strickluke


*screams*
chainpullz
2,335 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Natsu wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

Maybe people downvoted cuz they didn't like me? or that they thought the song was too hard? You can't determine the intention for someone's 1 vote xD. Loctav currently has the most downvoted map on osu. Does that make him or the map bad? No. Some taiko BN's tell me t's actually good... but you can clearly see people DTNF'ing it with like 50 points just to downvote to spite him.
I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.
Honestly this is the biggest reason this map shouldn't be ranked. Even if you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, it still remains the case that this style is indistinguishable from that of a beginning mapper for the vast majority of players.

Skipping the wall of text and getting straight to the point, just because something is rankable, fun, and is somewhat playable doesn't mean it's a good idea to rank it. It takes a maturity level I honestly don't expect from you in order to own up to this. Have fun with your memes I guess.

Edit: For clarification by shouldn't be ranked I mean monstrata himself choosing not to rank his own map.
Last edited by chainpullz , edited 1 time in total.
Shovan
36 posts
Joined May 2013
Shovan

chainpullz wrote:

Natsu wrote:

I'm wonder if this map get ranked how you'll ask to other mappers to map with quality? I'll feel bad when I ask for improvements and they link me this map as example.
Honestly this is the biggest reason this map shouldn't be ranked. Even if you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, it still remains the case that this style is indistinguishable from that of a beginning mapper for the vast majority of players.

Skipping the wall of text and getting straight to the point, just because something is rankable, fun, and is somewhat playable doesn't mean it's a good idea to rank it. It takes a maturity level I honestly don't expect from you in order to own up to this. Have fun with your memes I guess.
I'm just thinking that you can start mapping Tag4 and refer to this for the "the jumps are rankable" argument... Besides imo a song that's clearly below 5 minutes should not be boosted to longer duration just so you don't need to provide a full spread of difficulties.
Franc[e]sco
189 posts
Joined August 2009
Franc[e]sco
I've played this on ht and hthr, and IMO the jumps don't feel like "tag4" jumps at all. they're fast, sure, but that's simply because of the sheer speed of the song. I think the map is overall pretty enjoyable even if it's incredibly hard
Dilectus
1,727 posts
Joined April 2014
Dilectus
not sure if the community is ready for this type of difficulty. i mean, only a few people (perhaps) can play it

imo the map aethestically looks like someone experimented way too much and it ended up looking... kinda bad. but it looks like you tried giving the map personality or something
340
334 posts
Joined January 2014
340
well, i'm ok with this map and its ugliness because i understand it somehow lol
but only one thing i want to argue about is an Approach Rate or AR. yeah, i've read your dialogue with broccoly about AR choice (which can be found here btw p/5253277) but you guys seemed to discuss about AR generally, not in the map's context. your map contains many overlaps and crossings and over type of stuff which is may be hard to read. for example, this pattern 02:46:793 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - . it looks like a FUCKING MESS with ar9.7. i tried it with both ARs and yeah, AR10 was the best. same thing applies to 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - and maybe a few other patterns.

you also said

Monstrata wrote:

like, i would play this map for fun, but the AR 10 would turn me off cuz i can't read it and neither can a lot of people
man, what fun you were talking about when a few patterns are so damn hard to read? and «i can't read it» argument is invalid as fuck because it's not about what you can read or not read, it's about what other players can read. btw there is no fun when there are some clearly unreadable moments in the map.

and sorry for a few «strong» words, just couldn't find the other proper and emotional words
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- Milhofo -
683 posts
Joined February 2014
- Milhofo -
Only a really small portion of the community can actually pass this, I can't really see how some players can enjoy these types of maps without even beeing able to play them properly, but that's not my main focus.

Putting no fail on and playing this just feels sloppy and most patterns / sliders feel off in terms of flow, I don't care if it's intended or not, I can't understand why someone would do a bad job on purpose?! Sorry to say it but estellia's joke remap felt a lot better to play simply because patterns made sense and it flowed a lot better, plus the normal sliders. I'm not saying this for the star difficulty of the map, I gave value to maps like Apparition and Time Freeze because they have perfectly sensical patterns, even though I can't pass them either, but this doesn't feel the same.

I love some of your maps Monstrata, and I rated some of them a 10 like Akaito and Hikouki Gumo or the EOS remix but based on my opinion I'd rate this map a clear 1 just like I did with the Delta triangles map, because they feel like a joke and nothing else. Just my 2 cents.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,422 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Let's summarize it:

  1. Editing the Mp3 file to reach the five minute mark is rankable and never have been a problem before. If you disagree with this, please participate here to discuss out this and refrain to post here about the lenght, this thread is to improve the beatmap and not argue about a potential unrankable point - which is a general thing and not related to the beatmap itself.
  2. Spinners aren't added into the Drain time on the website so you need to check the beatmap at in-game - which shows exactly 5:00.
  3. Original Song is 4:46 long but mapper extended it at the begin,
    Reference to the extend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdwT5JlH8gM
  4. Shitting on the mapper and his work won't bring you anywhere, don't try it and post if you have something important to say.
Please stop asking the same thing over and over again and follow the things above.
Airachi
212 posts
Joined January 2014
Airachi
00:27:409 (1) - http://puu.sh/pPXOn/56248ba69f.jpg this slider looks like it plays terrible, and the slider ticks don't make up for what you removed from the song by having this slider here.
But it's mainly the second half of the slider that feels over extended, http://puu.sh/pPXRP/f890f0e857.jpg
You could make the slide a repeating slider and keep it "ugly"

I also feel like if you want to ignore them a little bit but making such a slider, could use a technique for staccato and make a gap in between the music
http://puu.sh/pPY2K/7c3d9f3108.jpg

Same as above applies to this slider 01:33:991 (1) -

I also think the sliders should be a bit more consistent to the music, it really does looks random, but the music is the same, its not like the slider should change shape every single time.. the music does repeat its self, actually so does the lyrics.. quite a bit actually, i think that itself calls for consistency (yeah the sliders being ugly is consistent) but it could be more consistent..

you could map 01:06:090 (1) - all the spinners similar to this, think it would be much more interesting to map the break down rather than provide a spinning feel when playing it.


I have to work now.. but i can look more in depth when i get home and try to help.. hope could help at all ;w;
(if you have already replied to any of this i am also sorry because i havn't been able to 100% keep up with the thread)

have a nice day/evening
Last edited by Airachi , edited 1 time in total.
Bara-
11,979 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Okay

First, increase the OD to 9.6
It's currently OD 9.4, which allows Notelocking to happen for maps over BPM of 282,50 (refer to t/334458)
Some parts are 286 BPM. If you set OD to 9.5, BPM of 285 is fine, but 286 is barely out
9.6 would make much more sense (and playability, 9.6 isn't that much harder than 9.4)
[Diff]
00:17:766 (1,2,3,4) - You are aiming at ugly, so why is this perfectly symmetrical...
00:26:553 (1,2,3,4) - Why not make all of these sliders slightly increase in SV? The music gets much more intense, and deservse those changes
00:27:409 (1) - Keeping your mindset, this slider is way too pretty. A blanket? Oh hell no (talking about the end with the red node above it), try something as ugly as this (also gives better flow to the next slider, so yey)
SPOILER
00:32:760 (3,1) - This jump is absolutely nuts. (3) has a reverse at the red tick, so the earliest you can let go of this is after that point. This gives less than 1/2 (at 280 BPM) to hit the slider which moves at high speed, back to (3)
00:34:903 - I swear I can hear some sounds here...
00:39:852 (6) - Please, no offbeat sliders (applies to the next slider as well)
00:40:172 (1) - Fits the music much better if it's a 1/1 slider, due to it being offbeat (from red tick to red tick)
00:43:047 (4) - NC, for the DDEDEDEDE
00:44:770 (5) - 00:46:484 (3) - 00:48:192 (3) - ^^
00:48:192 (3) - Why on earth is this 1/4 while the other similar sounds are 1/2?
00:53:425 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - This looks... not ugly...
00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Wait... I thought only Fort would ever do something as this
01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Are you sure you are not Fort?
01:33:991 (1,2) - Seriously...
01:35:915 (4) - NC, refer to above
01:37:630 (5) - ^^
01:39:344 (5) - ^^
01:36:505 (2,6,2) - Is it just me, or are these the only triplets in the whole map? Don't you think 1/4 sldiers (with reverses please :P) would work better?
01:41:847 (2) - Please have an NC, to distinguish between "oriental" and "deathmetal"
01:43:163 (2) - 01:44:275 (2) - 01:45:997 (2) - 01:46:857 (2) - 01:47:522 (2) - 01:50:303 (2) - 01:51:166 (2) - 01:51:830 (2) - ^^
01:43:716 (2) - 01:44:794 (2) - 01:48:020 (2,3) - 01:49:098 (2,3) - 01:52:363 (2) - Give them NC, for more emphasis on the metal part
01:47:749 (3) - Add a circle (close to the next slider)
01:59:570 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5) - I LOVE how you made this, since it's a "normal" part, so you also mapped it properly ^_^
02:04:045 (1,2) - Since this part is actually pretty, why not blanket this?
02:04:611 (3,1) - ^^
02:13:881 (2,3) - It might be only me, but these sounds shouldt imo all get an NC (though it might fuck up reading, so... up to you)
02:15:026 (1) - OMG WIGGLE
02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1) - Okay what the actual fuck
02:30:599 (9) - You NC slider #9 in the previous 2 patterns, but not here... NC this please
02:32:313 (9) - ^^
02:31:028 (1,1) - Please remember what I said about sliderjumps, when the slider has a reverse. Due to the reverse, the leniency goes away, so this is technically a 1/3-1/4 jump (which is like half screen)
02:33:171 (1) - This literally calls for an ugly slider, yet you make a boring one...
02:39:407 (9) - If you listen really carefully, you'll hear that the music is just a triplet, not a quintuplet, please remove this note
02:42:960 (9) - ^^
02:53:686 (1) - Can people even follow the slider? Since it's soo long, people are forced to move along with the slider...
02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - Isn't this a bit overboard...
-----------------------------
03:05:329 (1) - You use a 1/1 slider + 1 circle at the red tick in the previous parts, yet the music is the same, but here you have a 3/2 slider. Why not make it consistent?
03:07:390 (1) - ^^
03:45:634 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - It might be of the rotation, but something's a bit weird if you select them all. They are not properly aligned. (2) is a straight line with a few wiggles, and (4) is in a curve. Just something I found weird when I looked at it
SPOILER
04:06:081 (5) - You Always NC the first slider with "Stop", yet you didn't NC this (while you did NC 04:06:581 (1) -
04:25:863 (2) - Feels a bit forced, and not following the rhythm, please stick to regular 1/2 here, instead of a 1/4 stack
04:33:754 (1,1,1,1) - This is amazing

Honestly, the map isn't bad. It really fits with the song. The only issue I'd have are the 1/4 sliderspams (but hey, I can't play this, so who am I to say stuff?)

I'd advise you to get a lot of testplays from the top 100 (top 10 would be even better), since that'd be soooo much more valueable for high-tier difficulties than normal mods

Good luck!
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,422 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
p/5287081 read this and we're cool.


If you have complains about the removal, write me a PM with the content.
Yuii-
2,501 posts
Joined July 2013
Yuii-
For those suggesting AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really calm. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Mismagius
9,331 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
For reference:
  1. Discussion about mp3 length
  2. Current Code of Conduct of Mapping and Modding
Hi. I have posted some fluff in this thread a while ago for shits & giggles, but I believe that since there's a discussion growing on with pertinent subjects and arguments, I believe I should join in with what is my opinion on the whole matter. Spoiler alert: I don't like the map and I don't want to see this ranked without a complete remap (or at least a full spread without this difficulty).

First point: The map would disrespect the length rule if it didn't abuse a loophole in the ranking criteria. This is explained as something which is currently ok in the ranking criteria by Stefan, but it still is something immoral that is deliberately abused by Monstrata in order to get a map ranked with much lower effort. Apparently, the initial excuse given was that the song isn't "worthy" of a full spread or just not good enough to have easier difficulties mapped. Well, I've been told several times that these cases are just songs that shouldn't have been mapped in the first place. If you don't feel like you're capable of at least making easier difficulties for your map, then you shouldn't even bother making harder difficulties. On the top of all the other issues this beatmap has, this one just screams "I'm too lazy to even put effort into this joke of a beatmap, but I'm dedicated enough to get it ranked". It's one of the many insults that this does to the mapping community in general, being: If you're popular, you can just rely on your friends to get your lazily mapped beatmap ranked. Also, for the players: mappers are lazy and don't care if you can't play harder difficulties.

Second point: There is no proof of thorough playtesting and player input in the map. If the beatmap is truly directed to its target audience based on star rating, then it's extremely weird to not see any input from top 100 players, and the ones I've asked about, were feeling offended that such a beatmap was ranked in the first place - they didn't feel it was enjoyable to play or a needed map in the ranked section. If you can't even please the small target audience you're directing your map to, then there's something definitely wrong with the map. All of the "tasteful" aesthetic choices you went for, are just deliberately making the map play worse due to its bad patterning, awkward flow and just poor decision-making in placement and the ways you wanted to make the map follow the song. MAYBE that wasn't intentional, but the smug passive-aggressive responses from the mapper such as "Well, you guys are proving the point I wanted to make with the map, it was supposed to make you feel like that!" just prove that this was a deliberate "gimmick" that isn't even supposed to make the map more enjoyable in any way. You should want, as a mapper, to make the map as fun and enjoyable as possible. If you're avoiding that, even using gimmicks, you're just not mapping in a good way, and you're not mapping for the ranking criteria. This just throws another insult at the mapping/playing community: mappers don't care if you can't play their map properly; their aesthetic/gimmick choice is more important than your fun.

Third point: This beatmap is mocking bad beatmapping... and still manages to get ranked. Why? There is nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard. This beatmap was designed as a joke, and it was really funny until the mapper started to take it seriously. I'm all for maps that use gimmicks in way to make it play differently and still care about playability, such as HW maps (which people have been wrongly comparing this to), but this beatmap is, as explained earlier, using gimmicks to make the map play/feel worse. I'm not even talking about the difficulty abuse/spikes or the aesthetic itself, it's just that the map plays poorly. If you want to blame it in the song, then it goes back to the first point: Why even map this song in the first place, other than for a joke? And if it's a joke, why do you want it ranked? It's not a good thing for mappers, it's not a good thing for players, and it's just awful for your reputation since now apparently the world is out to hate on you and your maps from now on.

I don't want to go on the specifics as what patterns are bad or not; there seems to be enough modding, and, to be honest, it's not gonna help with anything. Since people love to misuse this quote in HW maps, I'll be using it properly here for the first time:

Code of Conduct wrote:

Unless the concept behind a beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start, modding should aim to improve the map in it’s current design - not force your own style upon it. If you truly believe the map has too many significant issues to address individually, try to give a general statement of why this is the case and what direction you think the map should go in to get back on track.
The concept behind the beatmap is fundamentally flawed from the start. You simply cannot get a map that mocks other beatmaps using bad playing elements ranked, especially using friends in the BNG to help you get through the rules and all moral issues that arise from getting the beatmap ranked.

As a fellow mapper who has been around for some time, please listen to my advice. Don't make this worse for mappers, who are always getting shat on by the players because of bad mapping decisions like this one. I recommend you to simply remap this entire thing as a serious map, and if you can't make this song work out, then maybe the song shouldn't have been mapped to begin with, and you can put it in the graveyard, where it belongs.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
So apparently, since things cooled down a bit now, I feel obliged to drop my word here.
In fact, I looked at this map just now and want to say, that I actually can not say anything. Why? Simply because I feel like there are only so many people that technically could say anything to this, because their playing skill and/or mapping experience is high enough to actually have an educated opinion here. I do not even know if these people even exist.

I could drop gigantic essays about how some of the slider jumps legit caused terminal cancer to me, the flow breaks, the forced full screen jumps on ridiculous BPM, etc etc etc. I probably don't like this map. But I am not sure if I don't like it because I can not play it or because it goes against legit everything I have seen so far. Even Hollow Wings, who does a lot of weird things in my opinion at times, is more controversial but way more evaluable in what she does. In both ways.

Not to speak of the unsatisfying replies from the mapper that may say "this is intentional" but nowhere actually justify the creation itself or explaining, why it is good as it is now (apart of it being intentional) - which really is insufficient and shouldn't surprise anybody if that is bond to cause backlash, as it reads like pure ignorance.

Usually, we try to rely on community feedback during Qualified phase, but it is bond to happen that at controversial creations, this is ending up failing. The fact that this isn't only hard but also purposefully "ugly" is making it not easy. And monstrata self is not helping with the fact that he literally asked 3 BNs that are not qualified to judge this kind of beatmaps at all, neither with their knowledge nor with their playing skill. These three people may do a decent job at other things, but they obviously do not know where their limit is placed. Ranking such things is very touchy and I feel like no one in the current BNG or QAT can simply evaluate that properly.

So what do we do with beatmaps that actually no one can evaluate properly? Simple: We don't qualify them. Going through the list of our BNs, QATs, mapper, staff, whoever, I feel like no one actually has the experience, know-how or skill to evaluate this creation properly and therefore I do not think that anybody should bubble this, because no one actually can reassure me that what they do is a good job, simply because it is impossible to do a good job here.

In other words: This map is too edge and pushing the bar way too much for current circumstances. I don't know if this would've been a probable map in 2 years, where people advanced in skill and experience even more. But I honestly believe that this map is maybe okay as it is, but no one can really tell. Therefore the community and this game is simply not ready for this beatmap yet (?).
I am a bit disappointed that the involved BNs are obviously unable to see this. They should've seen that their personal limits are exceeded at this creation my tenfold. They are probably good at other places, but like for everyone, they have limits. And crossing them in these cases is really unappreciated.

I hope this thread discontinues to explode and I really hope for everyone involved that they do not try to push this map again in near future, especially if they are not 123899023890954% sure they know what they are doing. And for the involved people, I am 284903489032583905% sure that they were not knowing what they are doing. I could put "no offense" here, but you are free to feel offended.

Please do not put hate on anyone, whatsoever. Errors happen, Hybris happens to everyone.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
For those suggesting other than AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really intense. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.

You can see the same thing like this ^


My opinion, AR10 would fit better because (already explained by someone on this thread), The player will be accustomed to the high AR because of the intense part, it will really feel natural to his eyes while playing these slow parts.
But the other way around, a lower AR than 10 will make the playability of the intense part limited to players that have good reading skills, it will be uncomfortable to play for a majority of good players. While the playability of the slow part won't change with AR8 or AR10 because the song was already intense, and the slow part will look pretty easier.
Nelly
Beatmap Nominator
1,534 posts
Joined August 2014
Nelly
Amen
Sonnyc
7,761 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
Thanks for summing up Loc. This gives me a lesson too.
Te Amo
246 posts
Joined January 2013
Te Amo
Everything about this map feels forced
Its just my opion though so who cares
∠( ｀・ω・)/
Bara-
11,979 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
The matter of AR is a really subjective one. One can deem a high AR (10) reasonable, since the first 60% of the map is full 280 BPM jumps and such. One can also claim that the AR needs to be lowered (to 9) because of the 2nd part.

In the end, it's all up to the mapper, and people should start respecting his choice of AR

While we're at it, go and support This thread since this will be a perfect example on why it should be added. Give AR 10 to the first part, and AR 7-8 to the second part
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Topic Starter
Monstrata
Hi Loctav. Thanks for the post.

I want to raise the question: "How can you tell if someone's qualified to judge a map properly?" Because I don't believe you need to be able to fc, or even pass the map to be able to judge the map's playability.

I've been involved with very difficult beatmaps for nearly a year now. I've both had experience mapping multiple 7+ star maps, and ranking multiple 7+ and even 8+ star maps. I'm sure there are other BN's out there who have done the same.

I think we're undervaluing people's ability to analyze difficult maps. Like other very difficult maps I've participated in, I'm confident that I know how it everything will play, the different angles (when playing vs. in editor), slider leniency, where players will likely abuse leniency, flow, where players are likely to singletap versus alternate, readability, etc...

Some of these jumps are simply very large. Perhaps the best example is: 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - . I can't actually land the jumps, but I can know how they will play. If I scaled it down, the angles would be exactly the same, as with other jumps. The flow as well. As well, the ratio between white > red tick jumps, and red > white ticks (emphasis, basically) is also scaled down. If a smaller version of this exact same jump was used in another map, no one would have questioned the BN's ability to judge the specific pattern. The difference here isn't the high bpm, the angles, the spacing, the emphasis ratio, or anything like that. Those can all be scaled down, and applied to other bpms, and you'd still be able to judge their playability. The only things that can't be applied elsewhere are whether the patterns fit the song at that exact moment, and whether the spacing of the jumps are uncomfortable (ie, too big relative to the rest of the map, or too small). Patterns like these have, of course, undergone extensive reworking based on testplays, replays, BN's and high-ranked players' suggestions.

What I am saying is, the vast majority of this map can in fact be judged by most BN's. Just because something is 8.3 stars, doesn't mean everything is 8.3 stars and therefore cannot be accurately judged. I'm sure I can judge at least 98% of the map accurately, and I think my BN's can too. However, I do acknowledge my shortcomings, as some of those jumps are beyond me. I can only judge that in theory, based on rhythm, spacing, emphasis, angles, structure etc... they will play well, and operate as how I envisioned them when I mapped them. I can't judge whether they fit, or whether they are just uncomfortable to play. But, I think everyone who's mapped difficult stuff is already aware of this. It's why when we ask for testplays, or when we spectate/watch replays, we look particularly at certain sections of the map that we don't feel confident in.

I will proceed with ranking my other maps in the meantime, but I want to come back to this map in the near future. I still have some mods I need to reply to, and the modders have spent a good chunk of their time writing them, so I want to at least give them feedback. I hope we can come to a mutual understanding.
melloe
275 posts
Joined February 2013
melloe
i guess ar10 is reasonable here....
but in general i think ar10 should be used extremely sparingly. ar10 is not attainable for some people without immense time and effort, and there are probably a few for whom it is a physical impossibility. there are people with a quarter of my playcount who can read ar10 and i can hardly read it, and it's not like i never play ar10, i actually play it a decent amount. i'm sure there are many others like me, and i've already met a few, some higher ranked than me.

on the other hand, learning a slightly lower ar (9.7 instead of 10, come on it's not even that big of a difference) is far, far easier. i'm currently trying to learn EZ and although it's difficult it is still so much easier for me than learning ar10, which ive only recently just scratched the surface of. probably just bias on my part because i cant read ar10 but can people please just lower their ar threshold by .3, it's not even that big of a difference and not really all that hard, it's not like ar7 or something.

in general i guess osu isnt ready for this map yet, aesthetically speaking. maybe it doesnt play well, i dont know because i havent tried it, and if it plays badly that's a problem. but its intentionally "ugly" design, though very cool imo, isnt objectively good or bad; it just depends on what's fashionable atm and what the community likes. unfortunately most people cant seem to appreciate this kind of concept yet (and by the looks of they never will). shame.

i hope notch hell gets ranked

also to people who say this song wasn't meant to be mapped, why? this song has a steady bpm and offers up tons of interesting sounds to map to. how unadventurous does one have to be to claim that
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
Monstrata pls put AR10 already, makes it more playable because holy fuck the BPM of these jumps for over half the map... :<
Ora
959 posts
Joined November 2014
Ora
I think more of the problem is that it's possible to even find BNs for something like this. Personally I feel like there's a little bit of a bias going on here. If you look at the statistics for the duration it was qualified, 90% of the people playing the map disliked it and gave it extremely poor ratings. I'm not sure if that has to do with them not being able to play the map or just their overall opinion on the structure of the map (but it's probably a mix of both). If you actually want input from the community, you need to listen to them. Otherwise, the statistics from the community speaks for itself. This map is basically a "fuck you" to other mappers that are trying to get more enjoyable and realistic maps out there. That's just my opinion, but I've seen a lot of responses from others in the community and I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of this whole situation. I think you need to look more into understanding why people dislike the map (and do something about it) rather than going to your friends or whatever you do for testplays just to see if it's actually playable. Sure I don't have as much experience with mapping as some of the people in this thread, let alone do I even have a ranked map, but this map is really pushing it in my opinion and I agree with what most of Loctav said.
Last edited by Ora , edited 2 times in total.
340
334 posts
Joined January 2014
340

Yuii- wrote:

For those suggesting AR10, please think about that again. More than 50% of the song is really calm. That doesn't fit.
Also, .3 difference shouldn't be that much of a problem.
for those suggesting ar9.7, please think about that again. more than 50% of the song is really fucking insane. that doesn't fit.
i mean you can play a calm part with ar10 and it'd be ok as for player, but hard part with ar9.7 is a pain in the ass.
and .3 difference makes a lots of effect
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan

340 wrote:

hard part with ar9.7 is a pain in the ass.
and .3 difference makes a lots of effect
Thanks
MCB
26 posts
Joined July 2013
MCB
Monstrata, I feel like Loctav's post about the community being able to properly judge the map has more to do with the fact that this map pushes the boundaries of contemporary mapping in terms of build-up and structure in general rather than just difficulty, which is why the difficulty is not necessarily the thing that matters the most, but your new age approach is. Hollow Wings pushes boundaries reasonably roughly with his creations, whereas this is more like a bulldozer compared to that.

It's a bit like asking a traditional chef to judge molecular gastronomy dishes, it's just not going to go well unless the chef learns his way around that area.

Sadly for A-L-I-E-N, the area is one that is unexplored, so nobody can actually judge it properly or learn to judge it properly unless a few years of new age mapping allow the community to get to such a point.
Last edited by MCB , edited 1 time in total.
Helyana
205 posts
Joined February 2016
Helyana
So, 2019 mapping style? Great.
cyprianz5
249 posts
Joined February 2013
cyprianz5
01:24:363 (1) - why is this slider 1/2 instead of 1/3 like 01:24:145 (4) -? there's no vocal here yet
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.

The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.

Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.

Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".

EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
Exactly what Jesse said, it's kinda like Tengaku tbh.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Kynan wrote:

Exactly what Jesse said, it's kinda like Tengaku tbh.
It feels FAR more natural than tengaku too, harder in places but never quite as iffy to follow.
semaphore
934 posts
Joined April 2015
semaphore

jesse1412 wrote:

Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.

The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.

Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.

Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".

EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.
tbh i think it looks kinda cool but idk
Arphimigon
1,681 posts
Joined December 2014
Arphimigon
Gotta agree with Jesse, it really hasn't got anything new in terms of playing except a few parts which are quite linear (notably the early pentagon part) but plays like any other map, just upscaled in bpm.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Bara- wrote:

The matter of AR is a really subjective one. One can deem a high AR (10) reasonable, since the first 60% of the map is full 280 BPM jumps and such. One can also claim that the AR needs to be lowered (to 9) because of the 2nd part.

In the end, it's all up to the mapper, and people should start respecting his choice of AR
This is exactly because it's something really subjective that it shouldn't be decided by only one person...
This is so subjective that it should be decided by everyone.

There's too much maps that are not played because the choosen AR is too low.

I'd say that the low AR is one of the main reason why people start playing DT or HR or don't play old maps...
Booze
220 posts
Joined July 2014
Booze
It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
Stjpa
899 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa

isopaharuntikka wrote:

It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
And what exactly is "everything"?
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

isopaharuntikka wrote:

It's Monstrata's map, he should be the one who decides everything.
Damn we are lucky, imagine if he couldn't read AR9, he would put AR8 in the map and it should be fine right ?

You can actually turn a good map to a shitmap (and reciprocally) just by putting the wrong AR.

But the AR is never good for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Also some stuff I do think plays a bit crap:

01:33:991 (1) - Way too fast and the slider ticks aren't easy to slide across/follow which makes it really hard to read/follow.
01:36:344 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3) - These "triples" play like arse, I'd recommend just making them into actual triples or something, tacking them onto slider ends isn't good.

As much as I think ar9 would be cool, I'll add that the current ar is perfectly fine across the map for me. If you can make it to the slow part you won't even second guess what's happening at this ar unless the miracles of jesus himself have carried you past the large jumps. Also regarding those huge jumps, I can't play them properly but they're literally upscaled versions of the other jumps in the map so for an able player they're probably nice and smooth.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

jesse1412 wrote:

Kynan wrote:

Exactly what Jesse said, it's kinda like Tengaku tbh.
It feels FAR more natural than tengaku too, harder in places but never quite as iffy to follow.
Because it uses comfortable angles and patterns, while Tengaku explores the uncomfortable ones. =P
unko
521 posts
Joined March 2014
unko
ar8 gogogogogogo
jawns
109 posts
Joined October 2013
jawns
I feel like there are two main points people make about this map, and why they don't think it should be ranked:

The first one is, that the map looks ugly, but I haven't seen a single explanation why this is a bad thing. Why is it more fun to click on a good looking slider rather than one that is "ugly"? And on top of that, as has been mentioned a lot of times, the "ugly" sliders fit the "ugly" music.

The other thing is, people say this map was deliberately made to play poorly (even though a lot of other people say that the map plays surprisingly well). The main issue I have with this argument is, that these people forget (or don't realize) that there can be more to a map than "how well it plays". Charles445's podcast talked a bit about it, how maps can have an emotional effect on the player, besides "this feels good to play" or "it felt great that I fc'ed that bit". My point is, that making the map "play worse" is justifiable, if the reason was to make the map fit the song better, or in some other way add to the experience.
Frc
359 posts
Joined July 2014
Frc
Adding to all the comments I've seen about this map. It's not even the first time something like this has happened. As I said in the map disqus when it was qualified, it comes to my mind gmtn vs. kozato - squartatrice by soulfear
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru

jawns wrote:

I feel like there are two main points people make about this map, and why they don't think it should be ranked:

The first one is, that the map looks ugly, but I haven't seen a single explanation why this is a bad thing. Why is it more fun to click on a good looking slider rather than one that is "ugly"? And on top of that, as has been mentioned a lot of times, the "ugly" sliders fit the "ugly" music.

The other thing is, people say this map was deliberately made to play poorly (even though a lot of other people say that the map plays surprisingly well). The main issue I have with this argument is, that these people forget (or don't realize) that there can be more to a map than "how well it plays". Charles445's podcast talked a bit about it, how maps can have an emotional effect on the player, besides "this feels good to play" or "it felt great that I fc'ed that bit". My point is, that making the map "play worse" is justifiable, if the reason was to make the map fit the song better, or in some other way add to the experience.
Exactly this, the entire point of the uglyness of the map was to give an emotional impact on the player. Its like "wow! i can really feel how ugly this song is through the map!"

Sadly, as he mentioned in the podcast, people are doing this less and less, and focusing on only the good looking and playable things that we call "meta".
grumd
1,790 posts
Joined October 2010
grumd
01:47:749 - i'm pretty sure you need a note here. it's a bit too close to the next sound, but it's existent and it needs to be mapped. good solution is to add a repeat to last slider
02:21:185 (3,4) - he keeps screaming here right until the (4), so it would be fitting to keep the same speed between 3 and 4.
maybe like this http://i.imgur.com/fwZSzwh.png
it looks a bit weird to have only 2 circles stacked, so i'd better do this instead: http://i.imgur.com/DBZfomv.jpg
02:39:407 - this circle needs to be removed, no sound here
02:42:960 (9) - same tbh
02:49:010 (1) - please ctrl+j (on the same position), just for my enjoyment (and better flow)
02:50:353 (1) - the second sound (all red ticks) is actually a bit earlier than the red tick. it's on the 1/8 tick. i'm pretty sure you already know this. i think it would be quite fun if it was mapped like that: http://i.imgur.com/tbRQzvA.png

01:36:505 (2,3) - and reminding you about wrong triples which indeed sounds like 1/3 for me http://i.imgur.com/82ESJ0F.png
Airachi
212 posts
Joined January 2014
Airachi
Maybe by picking dedicated "ugly" patterns.. For example, 4 patterns but using them randomly could give the feeling of "ugly" without actually being ugly. It remains consistent with same patterns so that way it can provide an "insane" feeling? It would still look nice though. Maybe thats a good happy medium for the craziness
Kyouren
5,689 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
Hmm... Why you adding again maximum in tags again? It's already in artist?
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