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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Endaris wrote:

Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
Lots of players have Daidai Genome as one of their top performances worth around 270 pp with an A rank because of the last seconds of the map, specially the three triples followed by some weird angled jumps. the start of the choruses are also significantly harder than the others parts in the map, but not even close to the final pattern. Koigokoro is constant.

Endaris wrote:

The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
I think I get what you're saying here. A map being constant is better considering it only has very sparse spikes, if it gets lots of spikes the map becomes significantly harder.

But if you're talking about not having any spikes at all, nah. It's harder.

Kheldragar wrote:

Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.

Riince wrote:

Or maybe they just don't want to FC them because they hate the maps. Although, doing this prevents them from being allowed to bitch about being ranked lower than people who they are better than. Not that they would anyway, since they wouldn't care about other peoples rank if they don't even care about their own.
If the map pool from where you can farm isn't limited this is what will happen, it's the best pick optimal maps if they want to increase rank. One should also assume that everyone will go to these maps instead of bitching about honor or some other bullshit and refusing to play these.

But of course, each player should play their strong points. Daidai Genome is an aim map, you will farm in it if this is your best aspect. Speed players should go to maps like Midnight Siege, and Accuracy players can play long maps with constant but easy difficulty as M@sterpiece (or for no mod, some of the one many DnB maps around 5.5 stars with OD 9).

Riince wrote:

There shouldn't be a select few maps you should have play to compete rank-wise if you don't want to be underranked, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy and have your 'skill' gauged accurately by pp, but it isn't so.
The problem is that the system gauges three different skills: Aim, Speed and Accuracy. We cannot see how much of it each player have like the old tp site.

A player might be worse than an player bellow him in two aspects but still have a higher ranking because his one best aspect is rated higher than the other two from the second player.

Here, the problem is with the map pool size (hundreds of thousands of maps) and the dominating mapping style.
Last edited by Reyvateil , edited 1 time in total.
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake

Endaris wrote:

ReynBolt wrote:

The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
That's bullshit.
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

uberpancake wrote:

I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
Would like to clarify that the shorter the spikes are, the more farmable is. I find that some maps with their peaks are rightly judged likely hvick225 Sagara Kokoro - Hoshizora no Ima [S.S] because the peak stands enough time to require constancy on skill and not about pure luck on a random play ... meanwhile I find FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - a way too overrated because the peaks stands too low time and seems very tryhardable and sucess ratio seems to be too high for a 500 pp play map.

About remote control... well... it's a weird case of OD10.33 DT play. If OD10 is too strong at really high values of accuracy then OD10.33 should be even stronger. I don't find that map broken on pp at all because the spacing that it has on its peaks is enough to make it not a mere "free accuracy map" likely we see on many other DT maps, but because it has 3-4 pikes of too low length seems that if you're somehow lucky you can obtain good pp from a good random play even at not being consistent on all the plays.

Resuming...
peaks of difficulty = tryhardable
Retrying for a lucky rank = worth on pp
^ this can be aplied at both cases FC or high accuracy.
The more peaks the less tryhardable/farmable is
Tysonzero
2 posts
Joined February 2015
Tysonzero
My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.

I understand why this is currently the case (only one score can be scored, and it prioritizes score over PP value understandably), but it should not be that hard to adjust the unique constraint from (player, map) to something like (player, map, pp_score) where pp_score is a boolean/tinyint that is true if the score has a lower score but higher pp value than your previous best.

Either that or find some way to merge score and PP together by adjusting the PP system or by adjusting the score system, or some combination of both.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
Don't worry man, I heard this is going to be fixed in some big update down the line.
E m i
E m i

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
soon™
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
I think I asked him on his ask fm a few months ago and he said something about not doing both because only keeping the highest pp score requires more storage of scores or something.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
that would be a much rarer scenario than losing pp, which is an everyday thing to some people and something most people always take into consideration before playing a map with different mods, but it doesn't have to be..
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i agree with that actually. i also agree with that highest pp should be saved and not highest score, but those are tom's words.
[Lucky]
73 posts
Joined January 2012
[Lucky]
I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
I don't think he was an idiot, SO is worth as 95% pp but only uses half of score, meaning you can improve it easly later on when playing better.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
otoed1
639 posts
Joined May 2014
otoed1

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
More importantly, why does anyone care about pp if they're using nofail? Or Spun out? Using those mods is like saying hey, this map is too hard for me to play well. If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

otoed1 wrote:

There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
depends heavily on the player..
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

otoed1 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
My top ranks would like a word.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I thought you were Riince, stop it.

Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.
otoed1
639 posts
Joined May 2014
otoed1

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
I might assume that actual "throw stream here, throw stream there" fast/superfast bpm stream everywhere maps (it's can be called a meta already since more and more what i see - map without stream doesn't exist) and not everyone have consistency to play this.

Jesus is still godlike player so sush :3
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

otoed1 wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

When you're trying to FC a map full of 280 BPM deathstreams, it's easy to give absolutely 0 fucks about accuracy. Kind of like Cookiezi's first score on remote control which was 92% or so.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Mikakage wrote:

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Perhaps he's like me and gets gud accuracy on things that are relatively easier and then just gets 92-95% fcs on the harder things because we're not that great at acc in actuality?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Mikakage wrote:

Khelly wrote:

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
for someone of his skill level,that accuracy on muteki is shit. i got fewer 100s back in 2013
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

HK_ wrote:

So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
only when its something noone else can fc with high acc

/e



or a lot of jesse's top ranks
-Kanzaki
889 posts
Joined June 2012
-Kanzaki
I suggest that the star difficulty cannot understand these kind of sliders so make it understand them :
screenshots
,



selected circle is 3

Here is my map as an example : Flux Pavillion - I Can't Stop - 01:18:813 (1,2,3) - thats the objects in the screenshots.

So it is 4.22 star but i named it extra because i used some big spaces on these kind of sliders. Just testplay it and think about it "Is it really 4.22 star map or its acctualy harder?"

Here is an good example check the star difficulty of lan's extra and play it do you still think it is 4.93 stars? : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/319661&m=0
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Yeah, but that's kind of obvious cause stardiff measures how easy it is to SS.
As sliders have a huge timewindow to get a 300 on(250ms window on OD7.2), large jumps to sliders aren't worth as much cause it will think you have more time to jump, like 100ms more than for a jump to a circle.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Yes, we know the star difficulty algorithm messes up sliders. In a lot of maps you can replace sliders with circles located at their heads and have the star rating increase which makes 0 sense. Above post is wrong though afaik - if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all. Algorithm just treats sliders badly.

iirc it approximates the minimum distance you can use to complete the slider and considers it to all be part of the next jump or something like that

which is all sorts of bad if true

but don't trust me on it being true because i'm not sure if it is
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

Endaris wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
Huh? If sliders were really underrated because of what you said, the difficulty of a map should go up when you increase OD. Difficulty algorithm just assume you're hitting everything at exactly the correct time.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
idk, I thought star rating was a measurement of how hard it is to SS a map.
I couldn't find an actual definition of what it does precisely.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik
This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

UltraRik wrote:

This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Yeah, only if it's an FC, and then use !acc and input the acc you or they got. I don't know of any way to check for pp worth of non FC scores.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
If you're playing hards with DT, you're doing it wrong.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

UltraRik wrote:

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
DT gives way too much pp thats true but DT way too easy? Please...
DT a 4.5*+ map and you will understand.

jesus1412 wrote:

It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT.
Also this. Theres so many people judging mods/play styles/ whatever and calling them bad without even trying them out, seriously wtf people???
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level
Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT
Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate
8)
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

UltraRik wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.
AR>10 is a very high level of play that's usually not recommended for people around your rank, try ar8 DT maps and see how it goes. I'm not trying to attack you for not playing DT, I'm just saying that you should try it first and then report on it rather than "he said she said". There are maps that are very easy to gain pp from for every mod, just because more people can play DT does not mean that DT is overweighted. If you can find a way to nerf "pp" maps without nerfing the already underweighted maps then I would agree with it.

Khelly wrote:

Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?
200+pp scores.

Mahogany wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level
Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT
Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.
This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT. I'm glad that you're trying to point out specific things other than "DT is overweighted, nerf it". Specifics are what we need here. OD is a strange topic at the moment, a lot of people think it has too big of an influence, specifically in regard to the pp gain/loss from high/low acc FCs on the same map.

NixXSkate wrote:

Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.
This is MASSIVELY the issue, HR is DIFFERENT to nomod (which people are used to) while DT has a similar feel to nomod (essentially if you build your core skills, you're building your DT skills [aside from possibly your speed]).

Also final note, the reason I called the initial post out about this is that "nerf DT" doesn't help at all. The post literally said just to nerf all of DT which makes me want to throw rank 1 millions into a fire.




On a different topic, can we change how acc is handled. You shouldn't be punished for setting low acc scores, the system is based around not punishing you. Look at my acc over the last year:

Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

jesus1412 wrote:

This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT
Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Mahogany wrote:

Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)
As there are many HR farm maps out there, basically almost all MIIRO TV Size Insane and Extra difficulties are good HR farm maps. There are way more short maps with huge jumps, few triples and easy streams (like Daisy, Univer Page, Artcore Jinja, Diamond...) to farm with HR than there are with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.
Same with HR assuming you can get good acc. And Koigokoro is a map that is worth quite a bit and you're not so harshly penalized for getting a so-so accuracy, different from Daidai Genome because OD8 becomes very close to OD10 with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.
Like you said. In your opinion, probably because of your skillset. Using the example bellow:

Mahogany wrote:

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.
First, with HR it becomes a 4.68 star map.

Notice something you're saying in this. DT is still valuable even without less than perfect accuracy because it is harder to play assuming you can read both maps properly, it got harder patterns and jumps than Fjarlaegur, BPM is irrelevant in both. It's just that HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10. It's fair that Fjarlaegur can only be compared to it because of the accuracy boost, actually, it is overrated if you look directly at the heart of the matter because you can make a map considerably easier worth almost as much when both maps have only a 0.5 ms timing window difference.

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

In all these we are talking about simple maps, like most farm maps, that are relatively easy to play and don't actually have what makes both mods harder at the highest levels: streams. In DT it's high BPM streams and in HR is keeping accuracy on long streams. And keeping accuracy in a <200 BPM stream is much easier than playing 240+ BPM in general.

Mahogany wrote:

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%
Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.

This and the balance between maps with simple difficulty spikes vs constant difficulty or high BPM streams, specially OD8 jump maps. For firetruck sake, Daidai Genome is worth almost as much as Magica with around two thirds the object count, and way more than Netoge Haijin Sprechchor. Just a glance at the leaderboards tells us which ones are harder.

PS - I'm not saying all streams are underrated, we all know spaced streams are all the rage when making good farm maps, they don't even need to be all that spaced to be worth lots compared to more condensed but way faster streams.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Good post, man.

Mikakage wrote:

Same with HR assuming you can get good acc.
Personally, I believe that it's a lot harder to get good acc with HR than with DT.

Mikakage wrote:

probably because of your skillset
That's very true, I'm not looking at this very objectively TBH, purely speaking from my experiences.

Mikakage wrote:

HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10
I agree with this.

At a medium level of play, DT is just...playing a normal fast map. With less complicated patterns and it's somewhat harder to get good acc. Playing HR at that level is a world of difference due to several fundamental changes.

Mikakage wrote:

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

Mikakage wrote:

Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.
I completely agree.

[
Acc PP is just too prone to be overrated overall, I think.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
acc should be a function of map complexity, not just of map length and od. too bad there dont seem to be any ways to do that.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
E m i
E m i

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
Except on long maps, ayy those 160pp marathon SSes
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
What combo is long?
E m i
E m i

Khelly wrote:

What combo is long?
Long to any degree, 2.5k to 9k obviously ;)
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined
Idk man I'm pretty sure most people get better acc on <200bpm streams than they do on mendes dt.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined
Idk man I'm pretty sure most people get better acc on <200bpm streams than they do on mendes dt.
The second one is not specific enough about what type of 240+ bpm.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
Yeah, it's harder, but it isn't enough to justify the difference for a mere 0.5 ms timing window. Seriously, this is adding 0.25 ms of lenience for hitting a note earlier/later, yet the pp value difference is a huge disparity.

Khelly wrote:

The second one is not specific enough about what type of 240+ bpm.
I said streams, if you are considering only 11 notes or so bursts as the entirety of streams in the game, that's cute. But even these are hard to play for most of the game population and I believe this majority will have more success at keeping a good accuracy at an easy to aim 170~180 bpm stream with HR than at an AR9.6~10.3 DT over 240 BPM.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Actually, no, you said under 200 bpm stream and then 240+ in general which is encompassing everything; you should've said 240 bpm stream because you shofted the focus to playing dt in general.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Actually, no, you said under 200 bpm stream and then 240+ in general which is encompassing everything; you should've said 240 bpm stream because you shofted the focus to playing dt in general.

Mikakage wrote:

In all these we are talking about simple maps, like most farm maps, that are relatively easy to play and don't actually have what makes both mods harder at the highest levels: streams. In DT it's high BPM streams and in HR is keeping accuracy on long streams. And keeping accuracy in a <200 BPM stream is much easier than playing 240+ BPM in general.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
The meaning of your sentence changed when you added "in general" even if the previous sentence was about streams.

You should have either left it out or said "240+ bpm streams in general" and I wouldn't have misinterpreted you.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
which bpm is easier to acc is too subjective
E m i
E m i

silmarilen wrote:

which bpm is easier to acc is too subjective
seems to be 170-210, really.

lowest ur 240+bpm play i have ever seen, yes three sliderbreaks.
DahakaMVl
6 posts
Joined June 2013
DahakaMVl
Still confused by the pp-System. Just played hard/advanced map. First try full combo, map rank #153 and acc 97.5% and lost 70 global ranks?
I lose rank all the time I play hard maps full combo and 96+ acc. Why is this happening. (I play almost daily)
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

DahakaMVl wrote:

Still confused by the pp-System. Just played hard/advanced map. First try full combo, map rank #153 and acc 97.5% and lost 70 global ranks?
I lose rank all the time I play hard maps full combo and 96+ acc. Why is this happening. (I play almost daily)
I hope you're aware that if you're rank 50000 and you get -50 ranks you'll be 49950 after it.
DahakaMVl
6 posts
Joined June 2013
DahakaMVl

Endaris wrote:

DahakaMVl wrote:

Still confused by the pp-System. Just played hard/advanced map. First try full combo, map rank #153 and acc 97.5% and lost 70 global ranks?
I lose rank all the time I play hard maps full combo and 96+ acc. Why is this happening. (I play almost daily)
I hope you're aware that if you're rank 50000 and you get -50 ranks you'll be 49950 after it.
I obviously meant I got ranked worse. ;)
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
other people play the game aswell, while you werent playing they passed you in rank but yours didnt get updated until you set a new score.

damn i should really make a macro for that response.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

silmarilen wrote:

other people play the game aswell, while you werent playing they passed you in rank but yours didnt get updated until you set a new score.

damn i should really make a macro for that response.
Just like for oh so many others :^)
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Just pay attention to your PP rather than your rank omg people pls
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Mahogany wrote:

Just pay attention to your PP rather than your rank omg people pls
But pp is an arbitrary number with no meaning behind it
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

GoldenWolf wrote:

Mahogany wrote:

Just pay attention to your PP rather than your rank omg people pls
But pp is an arbitrary number with no meaning behind it
But the situation is someone thinking he's losing ranks for making new plays when infact his pp is increasing but not fast enough to offset the delay.

Tooth is telling him to pay attention to his pp so that the person can know that their play actually gained them something and was not worthless.

Please pay attention to the conversation rather than trying to promote your agenda.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
*score worth less than 1 pp*

"i didnt gain any pp, is the system broken?"
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
That already happens though, but I just see the ranks complaint happen a lot more.
Kim
30 posts
Joined January 2011
Kim
Why hello there everyone!

Yes I indeed came here to rant about how it's possbile to lose rank although I gained more acc/points on a map :D
After reading the latest comments, a lot of what I had in my mind has been answered so... thank you for that! :)

But... if it meanwhile is a common thing that players only happen to see their rank dropping after playing a map, wouldn't it be neat if we could see the gain of pp as welll when finishing a beatmap? -or lose of course if it's decreasing.

Greets~
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

Kim wrote:

Why hello there everyone!

Yes I indeed came here to rant about how it's possbile to lose rank although I gained more acc/points on a map :D
After reading the latest comments, a lot of what I had in my mind has been answered so... thank you for that! :)

But... if it meanwhile is a common thing that players only happen to see their rank dropping after playing a map, wouldn't it be neat if we could see the gain of pp as welll when finishing a beatmap? -or lose of course if it's decreasing.

Greets~
There was an approved feature request asking for this from a few years ago (iirc.)
Kim
30 posts
Joined January 2011
Kim

- [ U z z I ] - wrote:

There was an approved feature request asking for this from a few years ago (iirc.)
Thanks for the answer!

Do you know what had happened to the request?
timemon
Beatmap Nominator
1,310 posts
Joined November 2012
timemon
I came with this crappy idea. idk if it's already suggested or not.

What if pp calculates the score instead of highest combo?
While a FC will remain the same the non FC will be less punishing
for example
The max combo is 1000 1000x is the max score (FC)
If you were to get 500x combo 2 times (combo broken in the middle of the map) the current system would only count the highest combo which is 500x
But with the score 500x combo 2 times would be worth more score and it might be equal to that of higher combo counts (like 700x or something Idk how to math) and you get 700x combo of pp

This way a choke in the middle of the map will be less depressing.
And I have no clue about this kind of this stuff so feel free to correct my stupidness.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
If you calculate score then 100s near the end of a long combo will be more devastating than at the beginning.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
I'm not sure, but I just have a kind of complaint from too imcomplete ranks with extremely high accuracy and high OD. I'm not right that pp from accuracy should be completely independant from maximun combo lenght. For an example, I know of someone that has Our Stolen Theory - United (L.A.O.S Remix) with 99.47% accuracy but only 1530's maximun combo.



Using tillerino I find that this rank is as worth as the 96.50% FC. And we can see this fact happening:
a) 1530/2275 combo at 99.47% accuracy +6 misses is worth as 270 pp
b) 2275/2275 combo at 96.50% accuracy is aswell worth as 270 pp

What I'm seing from there?
I have nothing againist high accuracy players, but come on, I would find rasonable if you reward these that can complete maps or are close to complete these maps. On an OWC match the 96.50% is worth as a lot more of score and more useful for your country than that 99.47% with several misses but 99.47% accuracy.

If you find that is an issue aswell, I think I have a rasonable solution for this:
a) guess that FC/FC has an accuracy value of 1.00 times the maximun pp from accuracy.
b) now imagine if by using square root of 1/2 of FC to give it a 0.7071... times the maximun pp from accuracy.
c) this would mean that his close to 2/3's of combo is wort h as 0.8160 times the total pp from accuracy, that's over 80% all pp from accuracy.

Because ... honestly... this only happens on OD8 maps or higher that have too many circles, that accuracy is the only mean of the rank, meanwhile FC is worthless compared to extreme accuracy tries with several misses.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

ReynBolt wrote:

What I'm seing from there?
I have nothing againist high accuracy players, but come on, I would find rasonable if you reward these that can complete maps or are close to complete these maps. On an OWC match the 96.50% is worth as a lot more of score and more useful for your country than that 99.47% with several misses but 99.47% accuracy.
multiplayer looks at score, the whole reason why pp was implemented in the first place was because score was not a good measurement of skill. let's not go back in time.
owc looks at something completely different than what pp does, using what's happening there as any indication of how much pp a map should give is just not logical.
99.47% is on a whole different level of skill than 96.50%, i think it's more than reasonable that a non-fc 99.47% would give the same pp as an fc 96.50%.

combo should not be used for determining how much accuracy pp you get because the two things are unrelated. accuracy looks at how accurate you are by time, while combo looks at how accurate you are by position.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
He got a lot of pp cause his combo was still decently high. Combo has a linear scaling iirc therefore he already got a decent amount of combo pp.
If he got 3 750 Combos your pp would be a lot lower. Misses are also detrimental for pp but with only 2 of them on such a long map it doesn't have a huge impact.
The question in terms of pp is also:
How likely is the 96,5% player to replicate the FC? He isn't cause he obviously show inconsistency on various spots that will probably cause him to miss on such a long map. The 99,47% player is highly consistent so he should have no problems to get a play of similar quality without much effort even though he might choke on a different spot than before. Therefore the pp awarded seem fair and square for me.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I don't think you can call 96.5% inconsistant - some people are just worse at acc.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
There's no point trying to balance aim/speed/acc pp anymore. It's the best it's going to get for a while. When aim/speed/acc are split apart again we can begin to find (and fix) flaws.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

He got a lot of pp cause his combo was still decently high. Combo has a linear scaling iirc therefore he already got a decent amount of combo pp.
If he got 3 750 Combos your pp would be a lot lower. Misses are also detrimental for pp but with only 2 of them on such a long map it doesn't have a huge impact.
The question in terms of pp is also:
How likely is the 96,5% player to replicate the FC? He isn't cause he obviously show inconsistency on various spots that will probably cause him to miss on such a long map. The 99,47% player is highly consistent so he should have no problems to get a play of similar quality without much effort even though he might choke on a different spot than before. Therefore the pp awarded seem fair and square for me.

I know players that are very consistent in combo but not in accuracy. These oftenly shine on multiplayers more than these that have massive accuracy but at missing oftenly. You can't judge anyone's constancy just because of the accuracy he has got because there are 99% players that lose combo every 300 combo on a 5.25 stars maps but they're still doing them with 99% accuracy; apart there are lucky accuracy tries aswell; people can get lucky accuracy alike at combo and I think a good rank should be someting between good accuracy and good combo.

For an example, you can rush for FC on maps like Rungran - d.m.c (Band Ver.) [Insane] by just doing a 88.50% F ; this time the more accuracy you have on that map the more equilibrated is the rank in terms of pp.



Rungran - d.m.c (Band Ver.) [Insane] specifications:
bpm: 180 ; stars 5.39 ; AR9 CS4 OD7, 341 circles & 76 circles.

When you're 2000 pp rank player and then you do that FC you gain between 40 and 60 pp commonly with a 88-91% FC, but as you retry and retry again the map, you need to get likely +2-3% acc to get around 3-4 pp considering it's weighted at 100% because being your first rank. Compared to DT plays in which you can get up to 7-15 pp's for only 1% whole accuracy in comparation.

The fact is, there are maps that are OP from FC (mainly OD7 maps with too much stars) and others that scale too much from accuracy and these "free accuracy farm maps" in which the more accuracy you gain from there the more overrated the rank is (happens at OD9-OD9.67 DT's maps between 100-190 pp level ranks). And if you compare these from nomod or HR similar pp level play you will find these 2 are both harder than the DT one.

so this means:
case a) : the more accuracy you do on that map, the more equilibrated is in terms of pp and the less overrated is.
case b) : the more accurady you get from that map, the more overrated you make that rank.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
So what is your issue?
Might be the case that you can get better acc than you usually would but if getting high acc is so easy why wouldn't you just get high acc?
Imo it's fair and square that accuracy has a decent value in a rhythm game and when someone whose strength is accuracy and someone whose strength is holding combo get the same award I find that pretty much legit. Especially since your "drop at every 300 combo" doesn't apply to the initial example you gave.

Also why the hell are you suddenly talking about DT? This was never part of the discussion before. Especially since you seem to be happily abusing this acc-festival.
88% FCs are kind of rare by the way as this acc is so low that it always involves shaky control. I don't see a 2k pp player FC that.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Ehm... you're right, there was no reasson to mention about DT topic... but I guess we can continue about the powerful nomod FC's that are oftenly seen in low pp's players. well I've seen cases of players at 1600 global pp doing a 98 pp rank at rungran with around 400's combo and some 2000-2400 pp friends of mine that has rungran aswell with 89-92% FC accuracy. Rungran is a commonly pp'ed map at 1600-2600 pp players. So yes, I have proofs that players of a wide range can do this map :P

SPOILER
Players profiles that pp'ed dmc rungran
92.24% acc B of 400's combo [1679 pp player]
91.13% acc A FC [2267 pp player]
91.49% acc A FC [2483 pp player]

You have these 3 cases of friends of mine that when they were 1900-2100 pp they made dmc rungran FC with A and one that at 1679 had almost done FC on it. So I would not underrate the power of low pp players that with retries can rank a 550's combo on an extra map that is built mainly on long streams. Long streams map combo are practically shorter in time lenght than a map built of 550 combos out of jumps. The shorter a map is, the more tryhardable is, that is why I know some 2000 pp players can even FC dmc rungran if they tryhard it enough.

A similar case happens with 07th Expansion - rog-unlimitation in which some players at 2800-3300 pp can do aswell a 88-91% FC on there gaining an almost 200 pp rank.

SPOILER
Player profiles that pp'ed rog unlimitation
92.34% A FC [3364 pp player]
90.61% A FC [3165 pp player]

Both of these maps are OD7 wtih high stars from streams with spacing, and both are commonly done by unexpectively low pp players.

So there is another map in which low acc FC is common and grants more than decent pp. Well yes I can't do this second one to be honest, but I see this commonly on people's best performance. Seems that a large group of people have no real problems about doing long streams wtih that spacing with CS3, I'm unsure on what to think about the pp efficiency of that map ... it's nothing easy but it's too commonly seen even on people at below 3000 pp, because the 2 friends of mine did rog unlimitation when they were a bit smaller than 3000 pp.


So ... if its true that 99% acc high OD is the most common way to have best perforamnces, it's commonly seen that some people don't need accuracy at all to make their ranks and if you expect that skill is lineally relationated to accuracy you're wrong. Likely we see DT or nomod maps that we see too often on people's best performance with 99% acc there are a group of low acc FC maps that we can see sometimes aswell and that MANY people have complaints againist these maps aswell, mostly talking about dmc rungran in which some people hates the much pp it gives to themselves.

But yes, this kind of player is not rare, but we have to admit that DT high accuracy players are most common for a group of reassons that some people on this topic have already talked about this.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
But low-acc FCs give a decent award just like you stated with two examples.
Are they underrewarded? I think not.
OD has an exponential scaling but a scaling that just ENDS at some point. So the difference in accuracy has to be huge to make up a huge difference in combo which seems fair for me.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
I would say that they are not underrated on some nomod maps, mostly acesible at OD7 maps with high spaced streams, but they are rarely seen on other kind of maps.

The thing that I do not like is that accuracy is completely independant of map's level. This makes some weird exceptions doing unexpected high pp, more than maps with 1 more whole star at SS. Don Omar ft. Lucenzo - Danza Kuduro [Experto] is a map that with DT has OD9.67 and 4.25 stars ... a very strange case of a map with too low stars but such OD. FOLiACETATE - Heterochromia Iridis [Another] is an difficult another map of 223 bpm streams, anoying reversals and theorical star level of 5.25 stars but OD7.

Well the case is this:

Case a) Don Omar ft. Lucenzo - Danza Kuduro [Experto] +DT
has 4.25 stars, 195 bpm, AR9.67, OD9.67 & CS4, contains 223 circles & 175 sliders

Case b) FOLiACETATE - Heterochromia Iridis [Another]
has 5.25 stars, 223 bpm, AR9, OD7 & CS4, contains 361 circles & 213 sliders

maps pp ranges by tillerino (because too much lag I can't upload images this time)

For case a)
95% = 82 pp
98% = 117 pp
99% = 143 pp
100% = 185 pp

For case b)
95% = 143 pp
98% = 156 pp
99% = 165 pp
100% = 178 pp

Observations:
1.- Meanwhile a) value is "trash" from FC, it's massive OD scaling ends beating b) which is a much harder map overall.
2.- map a) gives as much pp at 99% acc as map b) but with 95% acc.
3.- Elements distribution (again)
a) contains 223 circles & 175 sliders
b) contains 361 circles & 213 sliders

Toughts
Well, map b) is very bitch to FC because anoying reversals, unconfortable positions at some circles and it is even difficult to FC for players over 4500 pp. map a) is just hard to accurate, any player that has enough aim to FC an Hard +DT can do map a) with FC and with retries can gradually rise his accuracy on map a). Result is that a much more wide range of players (even ME! at 4436 pp) can gain pp from this 4.2 stars map. Meanwhile players of even higher rank than mine have real difficulties to FC map b) for a worthless amount of pp.

That's how OD is OVERRATED (more than just "accuracy is op"). I have nothing more to say.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
E m i
E m i

ReynBolt wrote:

Well, map b) is very bitch to FC because anoying reversals, unconfortable positions at some circles and it is even difficult to FC for players over 4500 pp
right, things that pp doesn't take into account. if anything, it makes the map b underrated, not the map a overrated.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
argggg 138 bpm streams is too hard!!! ... seriusly the more far to 185-225 bpm the harder is it to me!!! (regardless if it's slower or faster than the given range)
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

ReynBolt wrote:

The thing that I do not like is that accuracy is completely independant of map's level.

silmarilen wrote:

acc should be a function of map complexity, not just of map length and od. too bad there dont seem to be any ways to do that.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

ReynBolt wrote:

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
argggg 138 bpm streams is too hard!!! ... seriusly the more far to 185-225 bpm the harder is it to me!!! (regardless if it's slower or faster than the given range)
Please don't act like the bpm is your problem. It's the technical complexity and high OD that keeps you from getting anything close to good acc on it.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
> thelewa did 99%

I pass.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Short: Can the PP algorhythm spot Sliders which are hit too early (100) but still give full points (300) and take that in consideration when PP'ing?



I was wondering about a few things today and wanted to ask following;

- Is the PP calculated with the replay sent to the server or "just the score"?
- In case of replay, does the replay save the Sliderhits in a value which is usable for the PP algorhythm (ex. Slider gave 300, but the initial hit was in the 100 area (xy ms off the actual timing)?

If yes, I was wondering if it'd be able to take "300 Sliders with a hit on 100/50 window" in consideration and adjust the PP with that.

From time to time I see post about Sliders being to easy as theyre a guaranteed 300. ppy wont change this as it's just too big of a deal, it'd change too much in all the (leaderboard-)scores we have now. Can the PP algorhythm spot these faulty 100 Sliders?
Because I think that that'd kinda solve the problem to some extend, as people dont really care about their actual scores, but rather about their PP. That's just my view though.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Replay data isn't used, no. Just combo, accuracy, and 300s/100s/50s/misses. Even if pp could be calculated based off of replay data for new scores (and that would significantly increase the time required for calculation, which is already pretty long because of the ridiculous number of scores in existence), replay data isn't saved for current scores that aren't top x, so it couldn't be applied retroactively.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
I see, that kills the idea then. Thanks for the answer
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I think that was the longest time that this thread hasn't been posted in since it was made.
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