Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.

More importantly, why does anyone care about pp if they're using nofail? Or Spun out? Using those mods is like saying hey, this map is too hard for me to play well. If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.

otoed1 wrote:

There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.

depends heavily on the player..

otoed1 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.

If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.

My top ranks would like a word.

I thought you were Riince, stop it.

Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.

Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?

how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?

I might assume that actual "throw stream here, throw stream there" fast/superfast bpm stream everywhere maps (it's can be called a meta already since more and more what i see - map without stream doesn't exist) and not everyone have consistency to play this.

Jesus is still godlike player so sush :3

otoed1 wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.

Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

When you're trying to FC a map full of 280 BPM deathstreams, it's easy to give absolutely 0 fucks about accuracy. Kind of like Cookiezi's first score on remote control which was 92% or so.

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544

Khelly wrote:

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.

So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.

Mikakage wrote:

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.

Perhaps he's like me and gets gud accuracy on things that are relatively easier and then just gets 92-95% fcs on the harder things because we're not that great at acc in actuality?

Mikakage wrote:

Khelly wrote:

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.

for someone of his skill level,that accuracy on muteki is shit. i got fewer 100s back in 2013

HK_ wrote:

So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.

only when its something noone else can fc with high acc

/e



or a lot of jesse's top ranks

I suggest that the star difficulty cannot understand these kind of sliders so make it understand them :
Here is my map as an example : Flux Pavillion - I Can't Stop - 01:18:813 (1,2,3) - thats the objects in the screenshots.

So it is 4.22 star but i named it extra because i used some big spaces on these kind of sliders. Just testplay it and think about it "Is it really 4.22 star map or its acctualy harder?"

Here is an good example check the star difficulty of lan's extra and play it do you still think it is 4.93 stars? : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/319661&m=0

Yeah, but that's kind of obvious cause stardiff measures how easy it is to SS.
As sliders have a huge timewindow to get a 300 on(250ms window on OD7.2), large jumps to sliders aren't worth as much cause it will think you have more time to jump, like 100ms more than for a jump to a circle.

Yes, we know the star difficulty algorithm messes up sliders. In a lot of maps you can replace sliders with circles located at their heads and have the star rating increase which makes 0 sense. Above post is wrong though afaik - if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all. Algorithm just treats sliders badly.

iirc it approximates the minimum distance you can use to complete the slider and considers it to all be part of the next jump or something like that

which is all sorts of bad if true

but don't trust me on it being true because i'm not sure if it is

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.

Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.

Endaris wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.

Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.

Huh? If sliders were really underrated because of what you said, the difficulty of a map should go up when you increase OD. Difficulty algorithm just assume you're hitting everything at exactly the correct time.

idk, I thought star rating was a measurement of how hard it is to SS a map.
I couldn't find an actual definition of what it does precisely.

This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..

UltraRik wrote:

This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.

Yeah, only if it's an FC, and then use !acc and input the acc you or they got. I don't know of any way to check for pp worth of non FC scores.

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.

WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo

If you're playing hards with DT, you're doing it wrong.

UltraRik wrote:

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.

WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.

Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.

Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?

DT gives way too much pp thats true but DT way too easy? Please...
DT a 4.5*+ map and you will understand.

jesus1412 wrote:

It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT.

Also this. Theres so many people judging mods/play styles/ whatever and calling them bad without even trying them out, seriously wtf people???

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level

Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT

Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.

Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.

basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate

8)

UltraRik wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.

Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.

AR>10 is a very high level of play that's usually not recommended for people around your rank, try ar8 DT maps and see how it goes. I'm not trying to attack you for not playing DT, I'm just saying that you should try it first and then report on it rather than "he said she said". There are maps that are very easy to gain pp from for every mod, just because more people can play DT does not mean that DT is overweighted. If you can find a way to nerf "pp" maps without nerfing the already underweighted maps then I would agree with it.

Khelly wrote:

Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?

200+pp scores.

Mahogany wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level

Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT

Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.

This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT. I'm glad that you're trying to point out specific things other than "DT is overweighted, nerf it". Specifics are what we need here. OD is a strange topic at the moment, a lot of people think it has too big of an influence, specifically in regard to the pp gain/loss from high/low acc FCs on the same map.

NixXSkate wrote:

Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.

This is MASSIVELY the issue, HR is DIFFERENT to nomod (which people are used to) while DT has a similar feel to nomod (essentially if you build your core skills, you're building your DT skills [aside from possibly your speed]).

Also final note, the reason I called the initial post out about this is that "nerf DT" doesn't help at all. The post literally said just to nerf all of DT which makes me want to throw rank 1 millions into a fire.




On a different topic, can we change how acc is handled. You shouldn't be punished for setting low acc scores, the system is based around not punishing you. Look at my acc over the last year:

jesus1412 wrote:

This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT

Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%

Mahogany wrote:

Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)

As there are many HR farm maps out there, basically almost all MIIRO TV Size Insane and Extra difficulties are good HR farm maps. There are way more short maps with huge jumps, few triples and easy streams (like Daisy, Univer Page, Artcore Jinja, Diamond...) to farm with HR than there are with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.

Same with HR assuming you can get good acc. And Koigokoro is a map that is worth quite a bit and you're not so harshly penalized for getting a so-so accuracy, different from Daidai Genome because OD8 becomes very close to OD10 with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.

Like you said. In your opinion, probably because of your skillset. Using the example bellow:

Mahogany wrote:

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.

First, with HR it becomes a 4.68 star map.

Notice something you're saying in this. DT is still valuable even without less than perfect accuracy because it is harder to play assuming you can read both maps properly, it got harder patterns and jumps than Fjarlaegur, BPM is irrelevant in both. It's just that HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10. It's fair that Fjarlaegur can only be compared to it because of the accuracy boost, actually, it is overrated if you look directly at the heart of the matter because you can make a map considerably easier worth almost as much when both maps have only a 0.5 ms timing window difference.

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

In all these we are talking about simple maps, like most farm maps, that are relatively easy to play and don't actually have what makes both mods harder at the highest levels: streams. In DT it's high BPM streams and in HR is keeping accuracy on long streams. And keeping accuracy in a <200 BPM stream is much easier than playing 240+ BPM in general.

Mahogany wrote:

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%

Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.

This and the balance between maps with simple difficulty spikes vs constant difficulty or high BPM streams, specially OD8 jump maps. For firetruck sake, Daidai Genome is worth almost as much as Magica with around two thirds the object count, and way more than Netoge Haijin Sprechchor. Just a glance at the leaderboards tells us which ones are harder.

PS - I'm not saying all streams are underrated, we all know spaced streams are all the rage when making good farm maps, they don't even need to be all that spaced to be worth lots compared to more condensed but way faster streams.

Good post, man.

Mikakage wrote:

Same with HR assuming you can get good acc.

Personally, I believe that it's a lot harder to get good acc with HR than with DT.

Mikakage wrote:

probably because of your skillset

That's very true, I'm not looking at this very objectively TBH, purely speaking from my experiences.

Mikakage wrote:

HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10

I agree with this.

At a medium level of play, DT is just...playing a normal fast map. With less complicated patterns and it's somewhat harder to get good acc. Playing HR at that level is a world of difference due to several fundamental changes.

Mikakage wrote:

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

Mikakage wrote:

Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.

I completely agree.

[
Acc PP is just too prone to be overrated overall, I think.

acc should be a function of map complexity, not just of map length and od. too bad there dont seem to be any ways to do that.

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that

Except on long maps, ayy those 160pp marathon SSes

What combo is long?