Staiain wrote:
Any news on the DT PP front?
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)
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Posting this because this bug is not fixed. Yesterday I asked morisan7 to try Pipe Dream on 8K because it has a 6.22 star rating and offers approximately 400p with an A rank. I've compared his score to other people who has similar scores, and I noticed that some changes have been implemented to the pp system.
morisan7's score - 90.95% (194pp)
someone's score - 90.83% (399pp)
It seems like people who have tried this song recently do not get the same pp as the ones before. Please look into this problem, thank you.
morisan7's score - 90.95% (194pp)
someone's score - 90.83% (399pp)
It seems like people who have tried this song recently do not get the same pp as the ones before. Please look into this problem, thank you.
Good thing you've brought that up. In standard you guys have disabled pp from tag maps because of "pp abuse", basically one touchscreen player getting 555pp from one of the maps. So why do we still have autoconverts when you can get 350pp from some of them, and you get shit like pipe dream that gets 200pp for ss nomod and 650pp for s on 8k? That's clearly more abusing than one 555pp play, isn't it? And we do we HAVE to play autoconverts to be able to fight for top ranks? That's nonsense.
autoconverts
lol
lol
Staiain wrote:
Any news on the DT PP front?
wtf recently i saw lovesmack player's bp which named Ex something and he still could get 6~700 worth pp.. i quite confuse @.@_Sylveon_ wrote:
Posting this because this bug is not fixed. Yesterday I asked morisan7 to try Pipe Dream on 8K because it has a 6.22 star rating and offers approximately 400p with an A rank. I've compared his score to other people who has similar scores, and I noticed that some changes have been implemented to the pp system.
morisan7's score - 90.95% (194pp)
someone's score - 90.83% (399pp)
It seems like people who have tried this song recently do not get the same pp as the ones before. Please look into this problem, thank you.
-Kamikaze- wrote:
Good thing you've brought that up. In standard you guys have disabled pp from tag maps because of "pp abuse", basically one touchscreen player getting 555pp from one of the maps. So why do we still have autoconverts when you can get 350pp from some of them, and you get shit like pipe dream that gets 200pp for ss nomod and 650pp for s on 8k? That's clearly more abusing than one 555pp play, isn't it? And we do we HAVE to play autoconverts to be able to fight for top ranks? That's nonsense.
i agree your opinion of pipe dream overall. but, u don't have to blame autoconverts. lol
the autoconvert maps are still osu! mania mapset itself. they still follow music and has pattern.
i know, the patterns are kinda terrible. i still understand it a lot since i am a mapper and player.
but you might already know that most of autoconverts are not have worth pp like mania specific maps..
the amount of high pp maps are limited than specific maps. i think it's still reasonable.
You still need to play autoconverts in order to be top 10, even if your nickname is jhlee0133 or abcdullah
and that's WRONG
and that's WRONG
From the standard pp discussion thread
Now that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.Tom94 wrote:
Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
yesyesyesyesyesRedon wrote:
From the standard pp discussion threadNow that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.Tom94 wrote:
Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
So much thisRedon wrote:
From the standard pp discussion threadNow that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.Tom94 wrote:
Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
-Kamikaze- wrote:
You still need to play autoconverts in order to be top 10, even if your nickname is jhlee0133 or abcdullah
and that's WRONG
i bet you talking about #1 person who was farmed autoconverts a lot.
then i will say my opinion as top 10 player. lol. you will get 0 pp even you fc 4.2~4.5 star rating difficulty map.
then imagine how many maps which has star rating 4 stars over in autoconvert. i think 20 maps around?
so, is it still painful? hmm. whatever i know your feeling and intention. but it's not absoultely wrong imo
Whole thread in a nutshell.Redon wrote:
From the standard pp discussion threadNow that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.Tom94 wrote:
Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
@Suwako: Autoconverts are not fully fledged mania maps, they are horrific to play, have broken note placement, random density and AWFUL patterns. This kind of map shouldn't give ANY pp. NEVER. Having players play autoconverts in mixed mapsets with mania diffs in it is just sad.
i would copy what i said again
'the autoconvert maps are still osu! mania mapset itself. they still follow music and has pattern.
i know, the patterns are kinda terrible. i still understand it a lot since i am a mapper and player.'
to be honest, some of mania specific maps are even worse than autoconverts lol
pp is follows star rating of mapset difficulty rather than mapset quality itself.
then autoconverts are still need to give pp for consistency until star rating system changes
and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd include horrible mania specific mapset too
'the autoconvert maps are still osu! mania mapset itself. they still follow music and has pattern.
i know, the patterns are kinda terrible. i still understand it a lot since i am a mapper and player.'
to be honest, some of mania specific maps are even worse than autoconverts lol
pp is follows star rating of mapset difficulty rather than mapset quality itself.
then autoconverts are still need to give pp for consistency until star rating system changes
and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd include horrible mania specific mapset too
This is exactly what I mean. Also even most horrible mania mapset is still better than best autoconvert, just because someone put his effort in it. Saying that autoconvert is better than even worst mapper's creation is demotivating imo. Something along "why would I even want to try mapping when osu can generate something that pepole will like more than my maps". We shouldn't be saying that._S u w a k o_ wrote:
and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd
-Kamikaze- wrote:
This is exactly what I mean. Also even most horrible mania mapset is still better than best autoconvert, just because someone put his effort in it. Saying that autoconvert is better than even worst mapper's creation is demotivating imo. Something along "why would I even want to try mapping when osu can generate something that pepole will like more than my maps". We shouldn't be saying that._S u w a k o_ wrote:
and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd
don't know.. then you should think effort of mania autoconvert pattern code maker too xd
have you imagine how many players who spent time to autoconvert for some pp will be fucked up? it's not even kinda tag4 problem.
remember why many ppl use pp farming word. especially 'farming'. this is totally reflects they playing for pp rather than for fun lol
Eeh, pretty sure autoconverts were just implemented because there were hardly any mania-specific mapsets at the time, and they had to offer something to play from what already existed. I firmly believe this is no longer needed. We're also not sacrificing whoever has coded the autoconverts generator work as we do not want to remove the autoconverts but instead make them unranked. People could still play them if they feel like it.
Yeah, pretty sure that was the main motivation for autoconverts. I still argued that it was a horrible idea and would give players the wrong ideas about mania. Also, it was implemented before there were any mania maps at all. In the beginning, we didn't even have a proper mania editor, and you had to place circles in 'columns' drawn over the standard osu editor (it would ignore a circle's height).
Can you do with 2-players with osu!mania? 
Why is the co-op mod ranked? Two good 4K players can complete insane 7K/8K maps and easily rank up.
+There is no evidence when scores/replays were co-op'd.
I guess I should post this in the main feedback section.
+There is no evidence when scores/replays were co-op'd.
I guess I should post this in the main feedback section.
I see the co-op mode as a one person only mode in single player. The co-op mode was made for the multiplayer play just like the standard mode, but it brings interesting maps when played in single player. Keymodes more than 10 may seem impossible, but there are players like ABCDullah that can do up to 16k and these do deserve MASSIVE amounts of PP.
Vid:
Nor there is that 2 players are playing regular 7k.PouletFurtif wrote:
+There is no evidence when scores/replays were co-op'd..
Vid:
No.
its so hard play mania HD 7K 
Delete autoconverts plz big boy.
Rank HR and Random please...
I mostly rely on random to clear hard maps / charts when I play LR2.
*I know this might sound stupid or has been suggested, but please... consider it, especially HR
I mostly rely on random to clear hard maps / charts when I play LR2.
*I know this might sound stupid or has been suggested, but please... consider it, especially HR
HR yes, with some updgrades.
Random? never
Random? never
I will reiterate that it's a shame random can't have it's own leaderboard with no PP, because that would be kinda cool. But it's no huge loss, because I remember when there was no random mod.
Still no. Random cannot ever be ranked even into even the gimmick category due to it not being consistent. One generation of a random map can be much harder or easier than another generation.
Which is why I said "without PP".
It would be interesting to see how well players are able to do on maps with random. Symmetrical patterns tend to make for particularly awkward randoms no matter how random shuffles them, by the way, so not everything is going to be automatically easier just because of random. Beyond that, the point was simply that it would be interesting to see what leaderborads for random would look like. I never said it would be fair, or useful for anything, just that it would be interesting, and fun even despite the lack of PP incentive.
Not sure what you mean by "gimmick category" either.
It would be interesting to see how well players are able to do on maps with random. Symmetrical patterns tend to make for particularly awkward randoms no matter how random shuffles them, by the way, so not everything is going to be automatically easier just because of random. Beyond that, the point was simply that it would be interesting to see what leaderborads for random would look like. I never said it would be fair, or useful for anything, just that it would be interesting, and fun even despite the lack of PP incentive.
Not sure what you mean by "gimmick category" either.
Mirror mod when
right scratch users really suffer, y'know?
right scratch users really suffer, y'know?
Do I care if random has leaderboards? not really, no. Certainly not enough to make a feature request (not that it would have any chance of being added anyway). I was simply clarifying my position on why it's a shame random doesn't have a leaderboard. Full stop.
Kamikaze was responding to me. Mirror mod has been discussed before, and there's no need for kamikaze to post there anyway.
Kamikaze was responding to me. Mirror mod has been discussed before, and there's no need for kamikaze to post there anyway.
Oh, that's only somewhat related anyway, since it's an entirely different type of leaderboard being discussed there. I was referring to haveing some sort of mod-specific leaderboard that happened to not be used for PP calculations. That suggestion has to do more with promoting maps that otherwise don't get the respect they deserve because people tend to ignore anything that doesn't have a leaderboard attached to it here. (Because casual users are spoiled into thinking leaderboards are normal, and that anything that doesn't have a leaderboard is inferior, since that's what ranking implies).abraker wrote:
t/293841Bobbias wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "gimmick category" either.
My yes.dennischan wrote:
Delete autoconverts plz big boy.
iJinjin wrote:
So.... HT apparently gives pp again lol
My what the fuck is this. Half Time pp, but no Double Time pp? Let me tell you guys I have learned something over the start of this thread, and it's that Double Time is not easy to manipulate when on an actual mania chart. For people who put effort into Double Time plays like Haelequin and get only the normal amount of pp that they'd get for the average play, then you have people S ranking the same song on HT and getting more pp for a lack of effort, that's just damn wrong.6GoodNight9 wrote:
AiAe SHD + HT = pp pool
Autoconverts should've stopped giving pp all together, as well as that stupid "play all the maps get all the pp" system. F1rstLove isn't even as decent of a player compared to who else there is in the game, but just because he's out there farming away pp by playing every single difficulty from every ranked map possible, he was able to pass the 9k pp first before anyone else in the whole game. People have also manipulated that pp method by Double Timing and No Failing every song they can just to get the bonus pp for touching the damn auto converts. I think this should be a game of skill, not a game of "how fast can I play through all the autoconverts and charts with No Fail just for extra pp."
that's not how pp worksOctober Scream wrote:
F1rstLove isn't even as decent of a player compared to who else there is in the game, but just because he's out there farming away pp by playing every single difficulty from every ranked map possible, he was able to pass the 9k pp first before anyone else in the whole game.
That's not how it should work. I've read up about it and it's true, that's how pp works sadly. Tally up F1rstLove's pp from top plays and then compare it to other players out there.silmarilen wrote:
that's not how pp works
On the left is F1rstLove's pp, without going down to the second page of his top plays. The right is jhlee, without going to the second page of top plays. Guess who's in first? F1rstLove. Without even going to the second page, jhlee has already passed F1rstLove in terms of Top Play pp.
That issue is not actually because of autoconverts, it's because of the amount of maps played.
There is a small pp bonus from playing many ranked maps, that caps at 416.6667pp
jhlee has about 235 maps played, so he gets 54.81pp
F1rstLove has about 13220 maps played, so he gets 416.517pp.
In the other game modes, this is not an issue, since people who are good at the game generally have played a lot of maps.
There is a small pp bonus from playing many ranked maps, that caps at 416.6667pp
jhlee has about 235 maps played, so he gets 54.81pp
F1rstLove has about 13220 maps played, so he gets 416.517pp.
In the other game modes, this is not an issue, since people who are good at the game generally have played a lot of maps.
Autoconverts are going towards this thing, which is what really makes me and other users not happy. The amount of maps played shouldn't make a player, it should be the amount of skill.Full Tablet wrote:
That issue is not actually because of autoconverts, it's because of the amount of maps played.
DeletedUser_2024727
WOAH! So much to say about the last few posts.
I have no clue what this is either, but this certainly creates an imbalance. Iit has been confirmed that DT pp will be a thing once peppy does the per mod ranking.October Scream wrote:
My what the fuck is this. Half Time pp, but no Double Time pp? Let me tell you guys I have learned something over the start of this thread, and it's that Double Time is not easy to manipulate when on an actual mania chart. For people who put effort into Double Time plays like Haelequin and get only the normal amount of pp that they'd get for the average play, then you have people S ranking the same song on HT and getting more pp for a lack of effort, that's just damn wrong.
I will add this to support your argument. It is obvious that the pp system is not 100% perfect, but it's the best thing we got so far. Initially it was a huge improvement on the score based ranking method. I am currently working on a method and system to compare players' skills to each other, and if it proves effective maybe Tom64 or peppy will notice.October Scream wrote:
<facts conserning f1rstLove and jhlee>
I think that the best solution in this case is removing the pp bonus from playing many maps.October Scream wrote:
Autoconverts are going towards this thing, which is what really makes me and other users not happy. The amount of maps played shouldn't make a player, it should be the amount of skill.Full Tablet wrote:
That issue is not actually because of autoconverts, it's because of the amount of maps played.
DeletedUser_2024727
Combine those solutions and we have two problems solved, because the bonus pp for play includes regular mania charts too.Choofers wrote:
the best solution is to remove pp from auto-convertsFull Tablet wrote:
I think that the best solution in this case is removing the pp bonus from playing many maps.
My understanding is that autoconverts are the way there are because there were not enough mania maps to come by. I wouldn't want to remove pp from them, they still have to be worth something. I think the big issue here is what f1rstlove complained in this thread.Choofers wrote:
the best solution is to remove pp from auto-convertsFull Tablet wrote:
I think that the best solution in this case is removing the pp bonus from playing many maps.
We have enough mania maps for people to get pp without auto converts, which is why they should be removed. Unlike CtB or Taiko, standard converts poorly to mania with its garbled patterns and poor note placements.abraker wrote:
My understanding is that autoconverts are the way there are because there were not enough mania maps to come by. I wouldn't want to remove pp from them, they still have to be worth something. I think the big issue here is what f1rstlove complained in this thread.
True, but even playing dysfunctional maps requires skill. They cannot be appreciated, but it's something.October Scream wrote:
Unlike CtB or Taiko, standard converts poorly to mania with its garbled patterns and poor note placements.
Playing dysfunctional converts like Ascension to Heaven, Mad Machine, Everything Will Freeze, and Worldwide Choppers is not something. It's like going to a restaurant and getting a steak, then being given a two spoons to eat it. You'll eventually get it, but you won't enjoy the crap work you went through.abraker wrote:
True, but even playing dysfunctional maps requires skill. They cannot be appreciated, but it's something.
This kinda reminds me of the older standard maps, when the ranking process was lenient. I never enjoy those maps as much as today's maps and avoid them as a result. While I don't have the same feeling towards autoconverted ranked maps, I guess ranked maps have to have an aesthetic to them. But I will still be towards for not deranking autoconverted maps. Lots of lower ranked players play them, and I don't think it will be in their favor if this would happen.October Scream wrote:
You'll eventually get it, but you won't enjoy the crap work you went through.
Thing is if you're only starting as a mania player you will most likely not care about pp at all. Making it so pp are only awarded by mania specific maps will send players on the right track naturally without the need to correct them as soon as they start caring about ranking.
@October Scream
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
@Topic
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
Dont expect that DT pp will be added without fixing a star rating formula. But Im honestly surprised that HT started to give pp again, maybe its a sign that some important changes are gonna happen.
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
@Topic
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
Dont expect that DT pp will be added without fixing a star rating formula. But Im honestly surprised that HT started to give pp again, maybe its a sign that some important changes are gonna happen.
Umm, you obviously haven't seen me play CtB before Tidek. I think the way standard maps concert for CtB is WAAAAAY better than what converts for mania. Taiko maps convert poorly too, but still better than what you get from mania because of the fact it's mapped towards hit sounds and not putting random shit out for you. Trust me I don't sit around and just play mania. Maybe if you looked more.Tidek wrote:
@October Scream
Autoconverts for taiko and ctb are shit too, dont say too much about game modes where u dont have basic knowledge about them.
Also keep in mind YOU have barely any knowledge either. I see nothing about Taiko even, so you shut your trap until you look around and get some experience before bitching to someone who has more knowledge about a certain mode more than you.
Now that I think about it, bringing back DT ranking and deranking autoconverts can be justified. As for the spamming, DT shouldn't scale the hit area with the map to be larger, it's should keep it as it is without DT.Tidek wrote:
You guys forgot why DT was removed from ranking? Because it was overpowered, especially on autoconverts and now it will be even more overpowered because of easy to spam maps like haelequin or space time.
I can agree on this, but if something like that were to happen, I feel that there would be a whole scoreboard reset due to the changing function.abraker wrote:
As for the spamming, DT shouldn't scale the hit area with the map to be larger, it's should keep it as it is without DT.
DeletedUser_2024727
maybe when mania first came out as a playstyle, autoconvert pp was a good thing (lol) but now there are enough ranked charts to probably accurately depict skill levels. there are also a plethora of unranked maps, more than a few of which are significantly better than anything currently ranked/will ever be ranked, so I don't think there will be any detriment now in removing autoconvert pp. ranked maps don't happen very often, so it wouldn't be very hard to keep up with new maps
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
It wasn't a good thing, it was the only thing. I remember how bullshit the system was in ppv1, to the point of currently 1,5 star autoconvert giving way more pp than currently 4,5 star mania maps. But now that we have ranked maps, there is only one thing right to do
R E M O V E A U T O C O N V E R T
More to the suggestions about 7K (mainly):
-heavy chord maps are heavily overrated, even when they are slow. Especially in comparsion to stream heavy maps. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/176336 The Epilogue is a ultra easy to read, very easy to hit and not very fast sith only difficulty coming from having to hit heavy chords, whilist Blocko's Interlude contains much harder to read and hit patterns at considerably higher speed. Star rating counts Epilogue as 6,2* diff and Interlude as 4,5*. My scores for comparsion are: 920k on Epilogue, 730k on Interlude.
-Long note heavy maps with complicated technically are heavily underrated. It's not a big problem with fast and dense LN patterns, but the problem becomes big with long LNs combined with medium lenght ones, without any short LN spam. Also lesser amount of notes with harder LNs loses against simple LNs and heavier note usage, while former is harder. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/498730&m=3 Lv.25 is way harder than Lv.27, but Lv.27 still manages to have 0,5* more. My scores for comparsion: Lv.25 627k (with 5-6 tries) Lv.27 758k (2 tries)
I consider myself as fairly average player in any aspect of 7k
More to the suggestions about 7K (mainly):
-heavy chord maps are heavily overrated, even when they are slow. Especially in comparsion to stream heavy maps. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/176336 The Epilogue is a ultra easy to read, very easy to hit and not very fast sith only difficulty coming from having to hit heavy chords, whilist Blocko's Interlude contains much harder to read and hit patterns at considerably higher speed. Star rating counts Epilogue as 6,2* diff and Interlude as 4,5*. My scores for comparsion are: 920k on Epilogue, 730k on Interlude.
-Long note heavy maps with complicated technically are heavily underrated. It's not a big problem with fast and dense LN patterns, but the problem becomes big with long LNs combined with medium lenght ones, without any short LN spam. Also lesser amount of notes with harder LNs loses against simple LNs and heavier note usage, while former is harder. Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/498730&m=3 Lv.25 is way harder than Lv.27, but Lv.27 still manages to have 0,5* more. My scores for comparsion: Lv.25 627k (with 5-6 tries) Lv.27 758k (2 tries)
I consider myself as fairly average player in any aspect of 7k
change everything
ty
ty
^
not gonna happen
but I can only agree
not gonna happen
but I can only agree
http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/128118253262
Posting as requested - discussed with Staiain as well on what the ratings should be instead of what they are now.
Overrated maps:
Miracle 5ympho X [Fullerene's Black Another] - Exemplary map that shows how much emphasis is put into max NPS in a certain period more than anything else. Aside from the transitioning between jumptrilling at 210 BPM (which is barely difficult, it's significantly easier than say Kamui - which is currently 4.86*) - there's nothing that's close to 5* in this map. Probably 4.5*?
Diva 1.2x [Insane] - The quadjacks in this are hard, but really not worth 7.75* or whatever it's rated at the moment. There isn't too much of a difference between jumpjacks and quadjacks at this speed - in fact quadjacks are arguably easier than jumpjacks because jumpjacks require different motions if they change chords whereas quadjacks is just one motion. Probably 5.4*.
AiAe [Wafles' SHD] - Very hard, but certainly doesn't deserve a 1.22* discrepancy between it and Haelequin. The hardest parts of this map are the quadstreams and the stamina component, rather than the walls (which is how AiAe is getting its difficulty). This is probably a 6-6.1* map, more than anything else.
M.A.M.A. [ExTra] - Generally easy up to the ending (which is a 1/8 jumpstream with a jump layered on every other note), which is the hardest part. However, M.A.M.A.'s ending could be easily manipulated as a 1/6 jumptrill. I know multiple people who can S this easily and they can't even come remotely close to S'ing anything that should be in the 6* range - this is probably closer to 5.6-5.7* than what it is at the moment. It is a very luck-based map, a person who can't even pass AiAe on command could potentially get an S on this.
Underrated maps:
AiAe [SC] - This is a considerable boost from MX, but the difference between the two is only 0.21. SC has significantly harder patterning and layering - with tons of hidden one hand trilling and transitions with minijacks. It definitely deserves more than just a 4.60 rating - probably more towards 4.9 to 5.0 instead of whatever it is at the moment.
Imperishable Night 2006 [4K Insane] - Probably the most underrated 4K map that's currently ranked - 161 BPM 1/8 runningmen (essentially 322 BPM 1/4s) is something that's not doable for a good number of players. The leaderboards speak for themselves - the fact that the leaderboards look almost as bad as AiAe's should signify that it should be around the same level as AiAe, if not maybe lower due to the differences in scoring difficulty. Perhaps about 5.8?
Kamui [Insane] - Not so much demanding in terms of speed, but there's a lot of consistency demanded with tons of LNs that can't be released all that comfortably and long trills with chords layered onto them in an unorthodox manner. This tests a completely different type of consistency - so this might be harder to adjust in terms of difficulty. This is probably more towards 5.2-5.3, maybe higher.
The End [Keyboard Marathon] - 8 minutes of handstream and dense jumpstream at 200 BPM is significantly significantly harder than most maps at its given difficulty. It's certainly harder to score on than HAELEQUIN and We Luv Lama [AAA]. We Luv Lama is mainly 210 BPM dense jumpstream with considerable breaks, whereas The End is far longer and has harder patterning (albeit shorter). This is probably closer to 5.6*.
Angelic Layer [4K Overjoy Stage 1] - The hardest part of this map is that it's insanely difficult to be able to jack on a single note consistently at 150 BPM. The fact that there are occasional notes layered on the same hand makes it harder to be consistent as well. I don't have many points of comparison because there aren't many maps like this, but 5.9* seems fine for something like this? It's not easy to rate this accurately because it tests consistency like Kamui AND it requires really good jacking ability.
The Scales of Struggle [Collab Extreme] - Lots of 400 BPM stream (and occasionally jumpstream) and a polyrhythm ending that is essentially a long 400 BPM stream and jumpstream after with difficult patterning. 6.16* might seem like a high rating, but no one has come close to 99ing this map, and there aren't many people who can S this - there are certainly more people who have the potential to S AiAe than Scales of Struggle. This is 6.5*, maybe 6.6*.
We Fucking Hate You [Masochist] - I picked this map because it has relatively low max NPS, but it's constantly difficult throughout. It's 220 BPM jumpstream with 1/6 bursts littered throughout the entire map, making it insanely difficult to both time and hit. 220 BPM dense jumpstream alone (there are some areas where it has a chord on every other note) is about 5.1*+, but combined with the fact that you have to juggle jumpstream with tons of 1/6 bursts with rigid patterning as well makes it absurdly stamina-draining. Probably closer to 5.5*.
There's a ton of maps that are underrated and overrated (and definitely some others that I missed out), but I mainly picked up examples of ones that should be bumped up or down so similar ones will follow suit. I also wanted to make a couple of graphs on how hard should a ___ BPM (chord)stream should be, given that ___% of the notes are part of anchor jacks or one hand trills present in them - but I haven't really thought of numbers yet.
Essentially maps with overly high NPS is overrated. Maps with a very noticeable stamina component or extremely fast streams (or any pattern with relatively low NPS) is underrated. Patterning and consistency required isn't taken very much into consideration as well, at least not as much as it should be.
Would like to know other maps that are overrated or underrated that I missed out, it would definitely help the devs out.
Posting as requested - discussed with Staiain as well on what the ratings should be instead of what they are now.
Overrated maps:
Miracle 5ympho X [Fullerene's Black Another] - Exemplary map that shows how much emphasis is put into max NPS in a certain period more than anything else. Aside from the transitioning between jumptrilling at 210 BPM (which is barely difficult, it's significantly easier than say Kamui - which is currently 4.86*) - there's nothing that's close to 5* in this map. Probably 4.5*?
Diva 1.2x [Insane] - The quadjacks in this are hard, but really not worth 7.75* or whatever it's rated at the moment. There isn't too much of a difference between jumpjacks and quadjacks at this speed - in fact quadjacks are arguably easier than jumpjacks because jumpjacks require different motions if they change chords whereas quadjacks is just one motion. Probably 5.4*.
AiAe [Wafles' SHD] - Very hard, but certainly doesn't deserve a 1.22* discrepancy between it and Haelequin. The hardest parts of this map are the quadstreams and the stamina component, rather than the walls (which is how AiAe is getting its difficulty). This is probably a 6-6.1* map, more than anything else.
M.A.M.A. [ExTra] - Generally easy up to the ending (which is a 1/8 jumpstream with a jump layered on every other note), which is the hardest part. However, M.A.M.A.'s ending could be easily manipulated as a 1/6 jumptrill. I know multiple people who can S this easily and they can't even come remotely close to S'ing anything that should be in the 6* range - this is probably closer to 5.6-5.7* than what it is at the moment. It is a very luck-based map, a person who can't even pass AiAe on command could potentially get an S on this.
Underrated maps:
AiAe [SC] - This is a considerable boost from MX, but the difference between the two is only 0.21. SC has significantly harder patterning and layering - with tons of hidden one hand trilling and transitions with minijacks. It definitely deserves more than just a 4.60 rating - probably more towards 4.9 to 5.0 instead of whatever it is at the moment.
Imperishable Night 2006 [4K Insane] - Probably the most underrated 4K map that's currently ranked - 161 BPM 1/8 runningmen (essentially 322 BPM 1/4s) is something that's not doable for a good number of players. The leaderboards speak for themselves - the fact that the leaderboards look almost as bad as AiAe's should signify that it should be around the same level as AiAe, if not maybe lower due to the differences in scoring difficulty. Perhaps about 5.8?
Kamui [Insane] - Not so much demanding in terms of speed, but there's a lot of consistency demanded with tons of LNs that can't be released all that comfortably and long trills with chords layered onto them in an unorthodox manner. This tests a completely different type of consistency - so this might be harder to adjust in terms of difficulty. This is probably more towards 5.2-5.3, maybe higher.
The End [Keyboard Marathon] - 8 minutes of handstream and dense jumpstream at 200 BPM is significantly significantly harder than most maps at its given difficulty. It's certainly harder to score on than HAELEQUIN and We Luv Lama [AAA]. We Luv Lama is mainly 210 BPM dense jumpstream with considerable breaks, whereas The End is far longer and has harder patterning (albeit shorter). This is probably closer to 5.6*.
Angelic Layer [4K Overjoy Stage 1] - The hardest part of this map is that it's insanely difficult to be able to jack on a single note consistently at 150 BPM. The fact that there are occasional notes layered on the same hand makes it harder to be consistent as well. I don't have many points of comparison because there aren't many maps like this, but 5.9* seems fine for something like this? It's not easy to rate this accurately because it tests consistency like Kamui AND it requires really good jacking ability.
The Scales of Struggle [Collab Extreme] - Lots of 400 BPM stream (and occasionally jumpstream) and a polyrhythm ending that is essentially a long 400 BPM stream and jumpstream after with difficult patterning. 6.16* might seem like a high rating, but no one has come close to 99ing this map, and there aren't many people who can S this - there are certainly more people who have the potential to S AiAe than Scales of Struggle. This is 6.5*, maybe 6.6*.
We Fucking Hate You [Masochist] - I picked this map because it has relatively low max NPS, but it's constantly difficult throughout. It's 220 BPM jumpstream with 1/6 bursts littered throughout the entire map, making it insanely difficult to both time and hit. 220 BPM dense jumpstream alone (there are some areas where it has a chord on every other note) is about 5.1*+, but combined with the fact that you have to juggle jumpstream with tons of 1/6 bursts with rigid patterning as well makes it absurdly stamina-draining. Probably closer to 5.5*.
There's a ton of maps that are underrated and overrated (and definitely some others that I missed out), but I mainly picked up examples of ones that should be bumped up or down so similar ones will follow suit. I also wanted to make a couple of graphs on how hard should a ___ BPM (chord)stream should be, given that ___% of the notes are part of anchor jacks or one hand trills present in them - but I haven't really thought of numbers yet.
Essentially maps with overly high NPS is overrated. Maps with a very noticeable stamina component or extremely fast streams (or any pattern with relatively low NPS) is underrated. Patterning and consistency required isn't taken very much into consideration as well, at least not as much as it should be.
Would like to know other maps that are overrated or underrated that I missed out, it would definitely help the devs out.
tl;dr
Chords and chordstreams (really easy ones like alternating trills) should be weighed less than it currently is.
Specific patterns should have certain weighings
Single note streams should be weighed more at higher BPM (250+)
Polyrhythms (ex. 1/4 and 1/3 mapped at the same time - see Haryu) generally much harder and should be weighed more
One long note + regular note streams are overrated (see Koi Yomi Zakura)
Generally, o2jam like long note patterns are underrated (like Taekwonburi and Wintersun)
Jacks are underrated (Especially at high bpm, see Intersect Thunderbolt Momo's 4K Insane)
Extended lengths of trills should be rated more due to the consistency required to hit them accurately (see Kamui and Fullerenes HAELEQUIN extended ver.)
Will add more and elaborate more here later
Chords and chordstreams (really easy ones like alternating trills) should be weighed less than it currently is.
Specific patterns should have certain weighings
Single note streams should be weighed more at higher BPM (250+)
Polyrhythms (ex. 1/4 and 1/3 mapped at the same time - see Haryu) generally much harder and should be weighed more
One long note + regular note streams are overrated (see Koi Yomi Zakura)
Generally, o2jam like long note patterns are underrated (like Taekwonburi and Wintersun)
Jacks are underrated (Especially at high bpm, see Intersect Thunderbolt Momo's 4K Insane)
Extended lengths of trills should be rated more due to the consistency required to hit them accurately (see Kamui and Fullerenes HAELEQUIN extended ver.)
Will add more and elaborate more here later
Pretty much this. HT PP is weighed too much imo as well. I feel like I didn't even earn this lmao http://puu.sh/hA9zW/bad3a700ee.pngChoofers wrote:
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
A pp map on normal speed will generally be a pp map on HT, as will it likely be with DT. Fixing SR is really the only way to prevent things like the Aiae SHD HT scores from awarding too many performance points. Otherwise people playing maps like sister's noise Lv. 42 on half time will be completely useless pp-wise, even if they manage to score well on it.StaiainFangirl wrote:
Pretty much this. HT PP is weighed too much imo as well. I feel like I didn't even earn this lmao http://puu.sh/hA9zW/bad3a700ee.pngChoofers wrote:
in the case of dt/ht pp, if there's no way to get it right, or if there's no way to appease the majority, simply remove both from the equation
Yeah, the entire problem is SR calculation.
Nobody outside of Tom94 and perhaps peppy probably knows how SR is actually calculated in mania. It is different for each mode.
Mania's SR was even more broken until Tom94 started working on it a while back, so it's considerably better than it was before. The problem is mainly that certain kinds of patterns are underrated or overrated in the current formula. The effect this has is that certain hard maps will become massive PP generators (I'm looking at you Utakata) while others (particularly LN heavy maps) are worth less than they should be.
This completely skews the entire PP system to favor certain skill sets, among other issues. The issues with some maps being favored over others has been known pretty much since the first few days after the current SR calculations started being used.
Hopefully sometime in the near future Tom will make more fixes to the algorithm and smooth out the inconsistencies. But honestly, the whole system is a whole lot better than it used to be.
Mania's SR was even more broken until Tom94 started working on it a while back, so it's considerably better than it was before. The problem is mainly that certain kinds of patterns are underrated or overrated in the current formula. The effect this has is that certain hard maps will become massive PP generators (I'm looking at you Utakata) while others (particularly LN heavy maps) are worth less than they should be.
This completely skews the entire PP system to favor certain skill sets, among other issues. The issues with some maps being favored over others has been known pretty much since the first few days after the current SR calculations started being used.
Hopefully sometime in the near future Tom will make more fixes to the algorithm and smooth out the inconsistencies. But honestly, the whole system is a whole lot better than it used to be.
I've no idea how people know HT actually give pp.
Anyways HT should give at least 15-30% pp.
Anyways HT should give at least 15-30% pp.
Meanwhile Co-Op Mode is still ranked -w-
Next Up: 50% pp for Autoplay
AiAe [Wafles SHD] (100.00%) +Auto - 389pp
Seriously though, I really dont like the way the ranking is going right now.
Really good players have lower ranks than Co-Op Boosters and at the same time,
people (myself included) get HT-pp for maps they cant even dream of passing. (Which would be fine if DT was ranked, too)
And then theres people who could DT those maps and they dont get shit for what theyre able to play.
We just get random updates and changes to what gives pp and what doesnt, but that wont fix the core problem.
Sadest thing about that; except for (a minor part) the community, noone seems to really care at all.
Well played.
Next Up: 50% pp for Autoplay
AiAe [Wafles SHD] (100.00%) +Auto - 389pp
Seriously though, I really dont like the way the ranking is going right now.
Really good players have lower ranks than Co-Op Boosters and at the same time,
people (myself included) get HT-pp for maps they cant even dream of passing. (Which would be fine if DT was ranked, too)
And then theres people who could DT those maps and they dont get shit for what theyre able to play.
We just get random updates and changes to what gives pp and what doesnt, but that wont fix the core problem.
Sadest thing about that; except for (a minor part) the community, noone seems to really care at all.
Well played.
Wasn't co-op disabled from ranking to avoid confusion with account sharing?
Ovnize wrote:
co-op isn't ranked
Oh lord, didn't know that. Thought it's still ranked since everyone who used Co-Op to boost themselves still has the pp for it.
My bad there, sorry
Is easy mod nerfed?
I kinda saw in the G&R main forum that it was nerfed in osu!mania
I kinda saw in the G&R main forum that it was nerfed in osu!mania
What do you mean nerfed ?
Alright as far as the individual mods go, this is my opinion. The right bracket represents the max PP achievable, while the left brackets represents an arbitrary PP. As far as comparisons go, don't compare a mod's range to another (like hardrock and doubletime), it is intended to compare to no mod only.
No mod:
No Fail:
Easy:
Halftime:
Hardrock:
Doubletime:
The rest of the mods do little to modify difficulty.
No mod:
SPOILER
Not much needs to be said about this, other than improving the difficulty calculation for maps.
<--------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]---------------------------------------->
<--------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]---------------------------------------->
No Fail:
SPOILER
It behaves like normal, but allows players to submit maps even if they fail. Players that need to use this will have scores for that are almost most certainly below 500,000. Since the formula for PP is exponential (or so it seems), lower scores will naturally generate low PP. While it is possible to get a higher score and still fail, such map would have high HP with one spam part which raises the map's diff by a whole star or so which kills players that thought could pass it. Then that is straight away not a good map and should not be ranked in the first place. However, perhaps a slight penalty is still needed to justify the safety net by moving the PP range lower, depending on the difficulty of the map.
<------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------------------------------>
<------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------------------------------>
Easy:
SPOILER
In a nutshell, the easy mod decreases the OD, making much easier to get perfects and 300's, and the HP is lowered as well. Harder maps overall become much easier to spam through and recover from. I suggest limiting the range as well as moving the PP lower.
<----------------[-------------o-----------]------------------------------------------------------------------------>
<----------------[-------------o-----------]------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Halftime:
SPOILER
This mod slows down the map by 1.5 times. The map becomes more readable and the player doesn't need to play as fast. Personally, I only see a 7%-10% increase in accuracy when using this mod. I think limiting the higher range would justify this. On the higher range, The PP would never be as high as playing normally due to the ease of getting the notes. On the lower range, if a player gets 22pp out of 240pp top players get without mods, I don't think lowering the range on halftime such that the player would get something like 18pp instead would depict the result accurately (horrible explanation, don't know how else to explain)
<--------------------------------[-----------------o---------------]------------------------------------------------>
<--------------------------------[-----------------o---------------]------------------------------------------------>
Hardrock:
SPOILER
The hardrock mod is the direct opposite of the easy mod. So you then shift the range higher and expand it? Close. The only reason the easy mod got shifted lower is to justify spamming. That said, expanding the higher range AND lower range would justify this mod. I see it like this: If you get misses, then those would be penalized towards the lower range. If you get perfects, you would be awarded to the higher range. Since this would expand both ends, a player who gets 10 misses and 990 perfects would be penalized more using this mod than a person that would get same without mods. The reward, however, comes when not having any misses, 50's, 100's and 200's. Simply put, harsher penalty and better reward.
<----------------[-------------------------------------o-----------------------------------]------------------------>
<----------------[-------------------------------------o-----------------------------------]------------------------>
Doubletime:
SPOILER
This mod can get hard really easy by increasing the speed by 1.5 times. The speed it which you need to get the notes increases, making some patterns harder to get. The overall difficulty of the map gets harder. Therefore a suggest having the PP range shifted higher.
<------------------------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------->
<------------------------------------------------[---------------------o-------------------]------------------------->
The rest of the mods do little to modify difficulty.
I wouldn't mind DT giving pp. Other than that, it's a no-no for me.
idk, I think DT would be reasonable at least. o!m's PP system is too acc/7k biased imoChoofers wrote:
lol'd
mods should disable pp, regardless of what mod is used
I guess you guys are all for mods that raise difficulty having PP. I understand that there is little to know point on lowering the easy mod's PP, for instance, because odds are the player will wind up with PP that gets weighted to nothing. In my view, however, those mods should be ranked and by doing so penalties/awards should be given accordingly. It just has been unfortunate that however the PP for the HT mod calculated because it's worth quite something under the right circumstances. From what I found, it is worth about 50% the original PP. I have included a comparison of similar accuracy achieved on AiAe:
HT pp is just calculated by the new star rating after HT is set. Which is why aiae ht gives a lot of pp since it's still around 5.5*.abraker wrote:
I guess you guys are all for mods that raise difficulty having PP. I understand that there is little to know point on lowering the easy mod's PP, for instance, because odds are the player will wind up with PP that gets weighted to nothing. In my view, however, those mods should be ranked and by doing so penalties/awards should be given accordingly. It just has been unfortunate that however the PP for the HT mod calculated because it's worth quite something under the right circumstances. From what I found, it is worth about 50% the original PP. I have included a comparison of similar accuracy achieved on AiAe:
Then I guess that's a weird coincidence. I can't find many HT records to compare to, so I could only assume it's around 50%
HT, NF, and EZ should disable pp
mania just needs to have a better star rating system, and the rest will fix itself automatically
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
i wish LN maps can have a higher star rating..Redon wrote:
mania just needs to have a better star rating system, and the rest will fix itself automatically
maybe mappers can set their own star rating about this
maybe
That's because AiAe SHD's star rating is overrated, not because HT is inherently overrated.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
The SHD, among many other maps, is overrated because easy-to-play but high NPS patterns like this and this are overrated, as all the mania star rating algorithm really seems to take into account is peak note density. If you removed only half the notes on the few spots where these patterns pop up, and left the difficult quadstreams and all in place (which I did to save you the trouble), the diff's rating drops from 6.77 to 5.56 stars. According to Shoegazer, a lot more experienced 4K player than I am, it should realistically be rated around 6 stars. Needless to say, as a 6 star map, AiAe SHD on HT wouldn't be worth nearly as much pp as it is now.
All that is true for the no-mod version of it too, by the way. As I said, all we need is a proper star rating system, and the rest would mostly solve itself. If I was to map a 75% speed version of AiAe, made it the same as SHD on HT, and got it ranked, it would be just as much of a pp farm with the current SR algorithm.
nah, that would ruin it imoElementaires wrote:
maybe mappers can set their own star rating about this
maybe
tho supervising over sr and adjusting it manually is the only way to introduce SV rating in there. something like +0,5* added to algorithm value when SV is ultra-hard (smooooch example)
From what I see, what determines how much (many?) pp you gain is basically accuracy.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
Eh, I didn't say anything about HT being overrated. AiAe's rating is definitely a bit off, but 400pp HT gives me the impression that some values might have just been scaled down with HT, instead of actually recalculated. That, or something has gone horribly wrong!Redon wrote:
That's because AiAe SHD's star rating is overrated, not because HT is inherently overrated.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
You don't even know how wrong you arestryver12 wrote:
From what I see, what determines how much (many?) pp you gain is basically accuracy.
If you score lower than previous but have higher accuracy, no pp. Vice versa = lower pp.
I just wish they use persistent scoring, like ones of IIDX where 300g = 2 points, 300 = 1 point, just to make score-to-accuracy look "linear".
Well... it's hard to explain... but I think you get it.
sooo can HT mod be unrankable now?
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
This is gonna change when per-mod score get implemented, isn't it?xwidghet wrote:
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
This also confirmed for EZ mod as wellxwidghet wrote:
What's really cool is that if you passed it without mods, but got less than 400pp, you can't play HT and get more pp since the score will be lower.Cozzzy wrote:
I've just noticed loads of players are doing AiAe+HT, for almost 400pp. LOL
When are the changes going to happen? I'm sick of looking at my 270 BPM beatmap loaded with hard streams that has 4,2 stars and I cant score an A on it (and I almost S'd verse IV)
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?
Star rating is imcredibly broken
Converts give pp
Devs when is it going to change?