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[added] New beatmap category for good unrankable mapsets

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +12,924
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079
TL;DR: The best unrankable maps could be moved to a special category where they would have scoreboards while giving no pp
→AFTER BEING SELECTED AND PASSING A MODDING PROCCESS←
This'd encourage the creation of quality gimmick maps (as they'd get more attention) and reward players with unique skills.


Many people complain about the current beatmap ranking system, stating that some unranked beatmaps can be way more enjoyable to play than most ranked because mappers are free to use their creativity without limits. Wouldn't making a new beatmap category be a good idea?

It would have a (way) less restrictive modding procces (essential things such as timming, rythm and fixing broken stuff, nothing more) and the beatmaps would give no pp, but the scoreboards would still be there, just for fun. What do you think about it?

This category could include maps with various notes at the same time, ninja spinners, edited .osu file stuff, TAG diffs, storyboard-based maps, maps which are just too hard to be ranked (Akali, I'm looking at you), with notes in sliders, with an extremely low AR...

Idea taken from here


Edit: Someone posted something quite similar to this on reddit a few hours ago too;

Ranguesy from reddit wrote:

I completely agree with your decision to unrank (or un pp?) tag 4 maps, yet leave the scoreboards intact because the plays are impressive and representative of a skill many players do not bother to develop. I feel like this raises a question though: if tag4 can get a leaderboard without pp, why can't unranked/ graveyard maps also have leaderboards?

Many players put an immense amount of time and effort into developing skills that may or may not be rewarded by the pp system. Graces of heaven comes to mind as a map that should (and will) never be ranked, yet deserves a leaderboard due to it's unique skillset and difficulty. I aknowledge the fact that many (probably most) unranked maps are mapped poorly enough that people won't care about their leaderboards. I still feel that there should be a process for unranked/graveyard maps that are actually mapped well yet are still unrankable to apply for unranked leaderboards.
"plz enjoy game" -rrtyui

Regarding server strain;

jesus1412 wrote:

The constant strain from publicly available data and informed assumptions appears to be irrelevant to what peppy is capable of. To argue that a lot of server space is used for these replays to be stored is also silly considering that there are as of right now are 277421 submitted maps, if each map had a top 50 of 50kb replays they would each need 2.5mb of data for replays ASSUMING the map has a full top50 leader board (unlikely for a long time). From this we can calculate that peppy would need just under 700gb to store all the replay data. The replay data seriously doesn't take up that much space, the issue only comes when these replays are processed into pp (this makes the entire rank process very slow, hence why none "ranked" maps would be excluded from pp).
Examples
Standard







Taiko

Seijiro
Hmmm, basically you're asking about putting a scoreboard for every map that is submitted on the site (if you put it on one map you have to put it on all the others too imo), but even without pp (which would be a really bad idea anyway) I think the server will have a hard time handling all those maps: for every ranked beatmap there are at least 10 or more unranked ones.

With this said I'd like to be neutral for now since I see more downsides about this...
- Marco -
If you mean put scoreboards on unranked beatmaps i'm pretty sure It's a due (i'm on phone and i can't search it right now)
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079
I don't mean putting scoreboards on all unranked maps, just on those which are "almost ranked" (I mean, high quality maps with unrankable elements) after passing a different kind of modding which is more permissive, the category would be like a "step" below ranked/approved maps. I've searched for a similar thread before making this one and I couldn't find any, I'm sorry if this has been requested before.


[-MrSergio-] wrote:

but even without pp (which would be a really bad idea anyway)


Why? some of them need to be played with non-standard playstiles which would break the pp system (touchscreens for TAG4 maps)
DoKito
Nowadays (and even years ago) only maps with 4-5 difficulties can be ranked. That's quite a lot of work, not only the mapping but also the massive amount of time and work you have to waste on searching for mods (especially MATs and BATs... you just have to wait forever). Since approved maps need to go through a lot more mods (and also have some special criteria, which none of my maps meet [length for example]).

I would totally upvote this, but i don't know exactly how this can be handled (or if it's even possible to do). I really would love to have a scoreboard on my maps, so i can see other people's replays and stuff. I hope this gets attention and maybe some devs to look at it, so this might become realizable. Definitely going to write to Tom about that.
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079
I think it is possible since it has already been done with the old TAG4 maps after Kuvster's 577pp score. It would also hardly saturate the servers because it wouldn't be an automatic proccess, therefore only a limited number of beatmaps would get into this category.
Bara-
Do you know what unRANKED means?
That maps aren't worthy to have a scoreboard (yet) because they break the rules
This has been requested many times, and also denied, because it would put a strain on Peppy's servers
If you want a certain map to get ranked, mod it, so it CAN het ranked
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

baraatje123 wrote:

Do you know what unRANKED means?
That maps aren't worthy to have a scoreboard (yet) because they break the rules
This has been requested many times, and also denied, because it would put a strain on Peppy's servers
If you want a certain map to get ranked, mod it, so it CAN het ranked
Please read the thread before posting :)
Bara-
They'll get wasted after every update, so that's also pretty bad
I just can't agree with this
They also can't get approved, as that is ONLY for 5+ minute maps (I read the reddit)
If this'll get added (which I highly doubt) is that people only go for this type of rank, and put no effort in real ranking their map
Granger
Support!

Scoreboards on maps like eighto or anti you would be sick, for competitions sake.
baraatje does have a point though, you'd need some very strict rules and guidelines around it or there'd be too many people going for this instead of doing proper mapsets, which was a problem with the approved rank already...

Maybe just reuse Approved and only give gimnick maps like 2B, BlythE or Fake it a score board? This would, of course exclude eighto, but you cant have everything, can you?
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

Granger wrote:

Maybe just reuse Approved and only give gimnick maps like 2B, BlythE or Fake it a score board? This would, of course exclude eighto, but you cant have everything, can you?
That's exactly what I was talking about

Edit: well the second eighto diff seems quite "gimmick" to me
Granger

Default wrote:

Granger wrote:

Maybe just reuse Approved and only give gimnick maps like 2B, BlythE or Fake it a score board? This would, of course exclude eighto, but you cant have everything, can you?
That's exactly what I was talking about
Not quite, your OP includes maps "that are just too hard to be ranked" but what i propose excludes them. Same goes for TAG maps, those would need some other kind of scoreboard, with actual teams of people ranking those scores, see p/2529729
Hattouri
It won't put any strain on the servers.
Peppy has confirmed multiples times that requests like these wouldn't. And this idea sounds really fun anyway, so it''s worth it.
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

Granger wrote:

Not quite, your OP includes maps "that are just too hard to be ranked" but what i propose excludes them. Same goes for TAG maps, those would need some other kind of scoreboard, with actual teams of people ranking those scores, see p/2529729
When I said TAG4 maps I meant scoreboards for single player plays, that thread is about team scoreboards. And maps that are "too hard to be ranked", >7 stars maps such as
Fast Track to Browntown
Red Like Roses
V^3 (Hello World) (this one is almost impossible to play though haha)

Sorry for the poor formatting, I am using a Phone :?

Edited
Bara-
If there are scores saved, there are also replays
Most replays are 10-50 kb each
Not much?
Well, the /b/ count is around 700.000, and top 50 is saved
So this means 3.500.000 replays if all maps apply
3.500.000 times 10-50kb is 35.000.000-175.000.000 kb which is 35-175gb
That's quite a lot huh?
All ranked maps together are only 80 gb, so all replays would be more then the ranked maps itself
I know not all maps apply for this, but if you look at it this way, it's quite some strain (compared to the maps)
I highly doubt it will happen
On some maps it can be cool, but updating a map completely screws all rankings, and it'll stop people to map for rank, as this goes faster
A big no for me, and if it had been possible, I would give a negative vote for this
I just can't see this happen ever, and I'm worried about the bad things resulting from this, which is why I'm against this
Constantine
you can request some map that worth for a scoreboard tho :^) 1 unranked map scoreboard worth 1000 votes from different users

dont count dmca'd songs too

but meh
Seijiro
Baraatje expained better what I said in the previous post I made: even if you say that just "some" maps will have this feature there's still a problem. Who will judge these maps to be "qualified" to have this feature? Please, do not answer with "another team maybe".

Anyway, it's a no from me too :/
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

baraatje123 wrote:

On some maps it can be cool, but updating a map completely screws all rankings, and it'll stop people to map for rank, as this goes faster
Why would anyone update a map after "passing the test"? It's like updating a ranked map (which rarely happens, if ever)


[-MrSergio-] wrote:

Who will judge these maps to be "qualified" to have this feature? Please, do not answer with "another team maybe".
Those maps could be judged openly, just like how features are added to open source software.
DoKito

baraatje123 wrote:

3.500.000 times 10-50kb is 35.000.000-175.000.000 kb which is 35-175gb
That's quite a lot huh?
Holy sh**. 175gb? This is so much... not. Every Computer has even more capacity than this.

[-MrSergio-] wrote:

Who will judge these maps to be "qualified" to have this feature? Please, do not answer with "another team maybe".
What? Why not? Even the MAT/BATs could do that, since there wouldn't be too much of a "ranking criteria".
Sea_Food
the ideal would be that all maps that fall in the unplayable category for
-grossly mistimed
-map is extreamly short (like 20 seconds)
-mapping is all over the place
Would just simply be deleted as AFAIK these maps form the vast majority of unranked maps. There is just simply no reason to clutter the beatmap page with that worthless shit. If some people want to download those maps maps from friends or something for some reason they should use 3rd party file hosting or send email attachement.

Too bad we dont live in an ideal world so my suggesttion wouldnt work because it would mean that every single uploaded beatmap would need to be gone trough. With the OPs suggestion it would be enough to filter in just the maps that are playable and no harm would be done if some are missed.


Ok so this would be really useful since i like western rock and metal songs but 99% of them are unranked since there is not a single BA or QAT who does so its just impossible for them to ever get ranked in the current system. Also there is this thing that even thou 80% of the unranked maps fall in the unplayable category while its only like 10% of the maps ranked since 2014, there actually is much much more unranked maps that are really good than there are ranked ones (17 of my top 20 maps are unranked.) Also many ranked beatmaps that have a much better unranked version of the song.
What i do when i hunt for unranked gems, is that i search for the songs i want to play and put the "all" non-filter active and then check the creators profile. If the creator has over 5000 games played then the map is usually playable. And when it isnt its just like fuck me, and i have to try my luck again.


Now the reason this suggestion will never be implented and the reason why I did not suggest this even thou i had the idea over a year ago is because the BAs and QATs do not agree with the pros. They think that all of the maps that get ranked are top quality since those got trough a very strict ranking process and all that shit. And ofcourse all unranked maps must be bad because they have not gone trough the process right? Too bad that is bullshit and the "2014 mapping" is just getting worse so far in 2015, in ranked maps ofcourse.
- Marco -

[-MrSergio-] wrote:

Baraatje expained better what I said in the previous post I made: even if you say that just "some" maps will have this feature there's still a problem. Who will judge these maps to be "qualified" to have this feature? Please, do not answer with "another team maybe".
it's called nuke i think
Bara-
Nuke is for strongly unrankable maps
I have seen it only once though
Stefan
The nuke icon is dedicated for Beatmaps where the owner of the beatmap rejects to change unrankable issues and being contracted to admit them. So these maps are "restricted" to be rankable until the mapper decides to change its behavior and for the sake of beatmap to solve the issues.

On-Topic: Maps like TAG4 are currently called as gimmick maps. They were some ideas about having a own Ranking category which is similar to the Approved one since maps like BlythE (Osuka) or Evanescent would belong in this category only. As well, TAG Maps went into this category (not only because of the score limit of 20 mil but also because of their difficulty). While Beatmaps like BlythE (Osuka) or Fear Factory are gimmick maps since they play and build a lot in SB and skin elements, other beatmaps like Evanescent or TAG Maps are incredible hard and "actually" not intended to be ranked.

The point is: All these maps aren't bad, partly they're even good but would not fit into the Ranking section because they use uncommon mechanics which would manipulate the amount of pp (one of the reasons why TAG maps doesn't give them anymore). Of course there are also Beatmaps around which are something like art - so that means you're actually watching them instead to play them, common examples are The Big Black or Centipede. Litte recommendation: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/583277 /runs However, the last two examples are fully unsuitable to play.

Default wrote:

[...]and the beatmaps would give no pp, but the scoreboards would still be there, just for fun. What do you think about it?
I get your point, that of course would be required to have them existant at all. The actual problem is to declare them as gimmick maps. What are the criterias for them? Is it worth calling them as gimmick? Do they just exaggerate with that what are they're supposed to be? It's a very very tough thing to have something solid for such maps.

Default wrote:

It would have a (way) less restrictive modding procces (things like timming and fixing broken stuff, nothing more)
I find common sense should still be fullfilled like the correct BPM/Offset and the safety what the Beatmap provides (no NSFW, gore, anything what's not suitable for children and general for humans). Another thing like experimenting with Offsets and to double/half the BPM could be done if well used.

Default wrote:

This category could include maps like TAG4 diffs, maps which are just too hard to be ranked, with notes in sliders, with an extremely low AR...
I find TAG Maps are examples of Beatmaps which never should've been ranked unless there is a option that these maps are Multiplayer-only. Because such maps are honestly bad to play alone (not how they are mapped, just to make sure you and other don't get me wrong).

As said, this idea is around for years but something like process hasn't really happened since now.
jesse1412

baraatje123 wrote:

If there are scores saved, there are also replays
Most replays are 10-50 kb each
Not much?
Well, the /b/ count is around 700.000, and top 50 is saved
So this means 3.500.000 replays if all maps apply
3.500.000 times 10-50kb is 35.000.000-175.000.000 kb which is 35-175gb
That's quite a lot huh?
All ranked maps together are only 80 gb, so all replays would be more then the ranked maps itself
I know not all maps apply for this, but if you look at it this way, it's quite some strain (compared to the maps)
I highly doubt it will happen
On some maps it can be cool, but updating a map completely screws all rankings, and it'll stop people to map for rank, as this goes faster
A big no for me, and if it had been possible, I would give a negative vote for this
I just can't see this happen ever, and I'm worried about the bad things resulting from this, which is why I'm against this
That's piss in the water. The only issue here is by giving all maps a scoreboard, no one wants to take time to rank quality maps.
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

Stefan wrote:

I find TAG Maps are examples of Beatmaps which never should've been ranked unless there is a option that these maps are Multiplayer-only. Because such maps are honestly bad to play alone (not how they are mapped, just to make sure you and other don't get me wrong).

As said, this idea is around for years but something like process hasn't really happened since now.

But there are people who love playing TAG4 diffs with EZ HT (MillhioreF) or just want to mess around with their touchscreens. Adding some competitiveness to those maps (including the newly made ones, if they are good enough) would surely be appreciated by them. However my opinion on this is quite subjetive since I've never played any of them alone, so you may be right.

BTW https://osu.ppy.sh/s/180138 (it seems like there was some drama during the modding proccess)
Bara-
Please don't talk about that map's problems
The discussions about that map should not be revived
Also, about my comment on server strain, yeah, might no be true, but if you look at replay data versus ranked maps, you'll see that scores+replays are way more than the ranked maps all together
I might have exagerated (how to type this word?) a little bit, but I'm kinda serious
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

baraatje123 wrote:

Please don't talk about that map's problems
The discussions about that map should not be revived
Sorry I didn't read the comments so I don't know what happenned (reading drama is just a waste of time), but forget about them and focus on the map style itself.

Oh, and that beatmap's thread has been unlocked a few days ago, so I'm not reviving anything.
jesse1412

baraatje123 wrote:

Please don't talk about that map's problems
The discussions about that map should not be revived
Also, about my comment on server strain, yeah, might no be true, but if you look at replay data versus ranked maps, you'll see that scores+replays are way more than the ranked maps all together
I might have exagerated (how to type this word?) a little bit, but I'm kinda serious
It is indeed but when you compare the amount of data transferred from replays/spectators compared to beat map download amounts the strain is going to be INSIGNIFICANT. Let's say a map on average is 4mb (underestimate by quite a lot here), it would mean people would have to watch about 80 replays for every map they've downloaded (if replays were 50kb each, which is roughly correct). The constant strain from publicly available data and informed assumptions appears to be irrelevant to what peppy is capable of. To argue that a lot of server space is used for these replays to be stored is also silly considering that there are as of right now are 277421 submitted maps, if each map had a top 50 of 50kb replays they would each need 2.5mb of data for replays ASSUMING the map has a full top50 leader board (unlikely for a long time). From this we can calculate that peppy would need just under 700gb to store all the replay data. The replay data seriously doesn't take up that much space, the issue only comes when these replays are processed into pp (this makes the entire rank process very slow, hence why none "ranked" maps would be excluded from pp).
Sea_Food

baraatje123 wrote:

Please don't talk about that map's problems
The discussions about that map should not be revived
Also, about my comment on server strain, yeah, might no be true, but if you look at replay data versus ranked maps, you'll see that scores+replays are way more than the ranked maps all together
I might have exagerated (how to type this word?) a little bit, but I'm kinda serious
So its okay to use 10MB for each uploaded unranked map, but using 50kb more to add a score board is just too much? Maybe you should use logic instead.
Hattouri
The players themselves can judge whether or not they want this map to have a leaderboard, no need to involve any 'approval teams' into this.
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

Stefan wrote:

Default wrote:

[...]and the beatmaps would give no pp, but the scoreboards would still be there, just for fun. What do you think about it?
I get your point, that of course would be required to have them existant at all. The actual problem is to declare them as gimmick maps. What are the criterias for them? Is it worth calling them as gimmick? Do they just exaggerate with that what are they're supposed to be? It's a very very tough thing to have something solid for such maps.
I've been thinking about letting the mapper decide the category of their maps, while allowing the modders to change it if they think it's wrong. I don't think it's possible to make proper criterias for them.

Edit: I've added some examples to the OP
DoKito
Is this only for gimmick maps now? Like... Storyboard stuff? If yes then i will be sad.
MillhioreF
All of my yes, please. It would be great to have competition and leaderboards on high-quality maps even if those maps can never be officially ranked - obviously it would only be a leaderboard though, no score increases or pp or anything.
CookEasy
It was always my dream to get this, if there is the chance of competetive playing on zapy maps, (screw pp lol) i'd totally take that chance
slushy
100% yes
8-)
Kynan
Suppooooort !
Toadsworth
If this happened would there be anyway to include scores players have already achieved?
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

DoKito wrote:

Is this only for gimmick maps now? Like... Storyboard stuff? If yes then i will be sad.
What do you mean with storyboard stuff? It's is and has always been for good maps which have unrakeable elements, but they need to be playable. "Art" maps wouldn't fit in it.


DatPenguinTho wrote:

If this happened would there be anyway to include scores players have already achieved?
I don't think that's posible, sadly. It wouldn't be fair for the people who have lost their local replays anyway.


btw DATS A LOT OF STARS
Venitros
This needs to happen
DoKito

Default wrote:

DoKito wrote:

Is this only for gimmick maps now? Like... Storyboard stuff? If yes then i will be sad.
What do you mean with storyboard stuff? It's is and has always been for good maps which have unrakeable elements, but they need to be playable. "Art" maps wouldn't fit in it.
For me "gimmick" maps are maps like "Fake It", where the storyboard is part of the map. I just wouldn't call every map, which isn't rankable a "gimmick map". That's why i was asking cause that would mean my maps wouldn't get a scoreboard if that's the case.
Yauxo
Take all my stars pls.
I feel like this idea is way overdue. There are so many ways to map amazing gimmicky maps, but little to none know them nor have the motivation to play them (unranked, no scoreboard to compare to friends, blah).

As for "what maps belong there" - we dont have BNs for no reason. Get some "rules" up or create another team that'd focus on exactly these maps.

/2cents
Stefan

DoKito wrote:

Is this only for gimmick maps now? Like... Storyboard stuff? If yes then i will be sad.
There are different kinds of gimmick maps.

  1. Working with the SB (like you mentioned Fake It)
  2. where the Gameplay is completely new (Jubeatsu or Osuka)
  3. where the Skin and/or Hitsound elements are changed (Proud of You by deepsea but I am not sure if it still works properly)
  4. unrankable pattern/SV mechanics (Evanescent)
They're probably more but... these are quite common.

Also I don't see the problem in getting them approved by the Beatmap Nominators? I mean okay, the only issue why these maps probably can't be really approved is because the build how they're made gets broken due new updates (changing skin/hitsound behaviour, etc). Else, why would you update a beatmap which doesn't need an update?
TicClick
you guys will need GAT, or Gimmick Assurance Team
Lanturn
Gimmick maps you say? ................... =]

te-te-te-te-tewi~

This is a cool idea I guess. I still have lots of ideas up my sleeve.

Let'see how this does. Have a star for now.
Topic Starter
DeletedUser_4329079

TicClick wrote:

you guys will need GAT, or Gimmick Assurance Team
Seems legit :D
gregest
yes plz I need this
-GN
yeah, i feel like this would be very good for the playing community and map creators if it was implemented right.
Vuelo Eluko
peppy probably doesnt want to fork over the bandwidth for scoreboards that dont even matter in the system


would b cool tho
Xilver15
The problem is, what exactly defines a good unranked beatmap? I feel like for this to happen there will need to be a team that chooses which maps get a scoreboard and which ones don't.

EDIT: nvm this has been discussed already, good luck finding a team!

Good idea though, starred.
blourgh
Would they even have to code a completely new system? I feel like they could just rank those maps but make them give 0 pp like tag4 maps.
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