Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

Myke B wrote:

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

I did not even read the thread i am just talking out of my ass like your average retard.

Wishy wrote:

it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Pretty much this, you guys should be grateful that system is not working anymore.

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."

01001110 01101111

It's not about being proud of the difficulty of the songs but rather the time spent polishing that rank and beating your friends. If you spent a lot of time on any video game (whether it was farming a legendary in World of Warcraft, or getting all the empty bottles in Legend of Zelda) you always liked having a token of your accomplishments. You don't have to be such a tp elitist Wishy. Some people appreciate pp too.

Regardless we're getting off topic. Peppy was leaving the thread open for further criticisms on his decision to remove pp, not instagate LOLTPISBETTER arguements

Which btw, I think tp is a better ranking system. I'd just like to have some sort of way to remember all the time I spent on pp

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s

I think most of us would agree the old system was broken/flawed. Now that we have that established, don't you guys believe that a system that is broken/flawed should be fixed and replaced with a system that works? Keeping a broken system, especially a system that identifies your ranking with the rest of the community, is something that should definitely be changed as soon as possible. I think if I posted this a week ago, many people would agree that the system needs an update.

Now that it's happening... Well, peppy has said the ppv2 system he implemented temporarily wasn't accurate, for starters. What you may have seen as your rank then will not be your rank when it comes out properly. Secondly, even if the system was introduced accurately and the rank you did see was accurate and you're upset about how your rank was decreased... Then maybe you didn't belong at the rank you had in ppv1? It was a bad system, seeing the number it gave you as being accurate is just a no.

Whatever rank this supposedly accurate new system gives you should be the one you stick by, not the old one. Criticize it when it is actually out. As for having a sticker or some bullshit showing your ppv1 rank, I think that's a bit against-the-idea seeing as we're trying to replace a broken system. I'm sure you all remember your ppv1 rank - You can just include on your userlog what it was if it means that much to you.

As for the people saying "our efforts have gone to waste", well no. Your efforts of farming pp in the old system may have gone (if you're complaining about it then you're probably a farmer) but if you were actually a good player and believe you belong at the rank that ppv1 gave you, then you should be at a similar rank when ppv2 is released. If not, then use your skills (it's not like a pp change is going to change your ability to play the game) to earn yourself a good spot in the new system. This is assuming the new system is more accurate then the old one.

As for the next week while rankings are disabled, your scores do indeed count towards the new system. There's absolutely no reason to stop trying as much as you were beforehand, the only difference is you don't know if you are ranking up.

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."

01001110 01101111

Pretty much this. Playing for fun and playing competitively are the exact same thing to me. Being competitive IS fun and this goes for most games I play. You can call it stupid or pathetic or whatever you want but I enjoy being better at things than other people (I don't try to be an arse about it though). To give an example, I used to play Halo: Reach a lot and even though the game itself had become very stale I still had fun playing it because I was so good at it and I would keep winning and rising on the leader boards. If there was not a leader board, I would have stopped playing a lot sooner. I don't think there is anything wrong with this mindset. Competition makes things interesting, and playing purely for the sake of getting a high ranking is perfectly fine. I was rank 11.8k on osu! before ppv1 was removed. It wasn't an amazing rank but it was a rank that I worked hard for and increased gradually over time. When I broke 20k I was super happy, seeing your rank improve is an awesome feeling.


That being said, it is too early to start complaining about the system considering we haven't even seen it yet. All we can do is make suggestions and trust Peppy's judgement. As long as the new ranking system can be competitive I don't mind. Just don't make the last few months/years for some players feel like a waste.


Let's be patient everyone, this isn't the end of the world. We need to wait it out and see what happens.

I just want a number beside my name even if it's a random one.

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

It's just for a week tops, and your rankings that you gain between now and then will still contribute towards the new rank you will get. If you really cared about your rank you would continue playing for when it came out so it would be better, despite not being able to see it being updated now.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

I agree. If TP isn't enough to keep you settled for a week or two, then you really need to have an introspective look at yourself and learn to have patience. Training and learning to play osu! is in itself a very intense exercise in patience.

Silynn wrote:

When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.

I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

I just really hope it's actually soon, and not a couple of years soon I mostly just care about a lot of the high voted things in feature request like teams/friend request notification/pp in results screen, etc. and want them to come in a timely manner.

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*.

Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing

Purple wrote:

I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.

I wasn't complaining about the rankings being gone, I was complaining about peppy (and others) condescendingly telling people to stop caring about rankings and play for fun, as if the only way to have fun with a game is to play it casually. However, most of those statements have since been changed/revoked/reworded in interest of saving face.

I will offer criticism as I have when I am presented with change or some form of substance to criticize. I'm not complaining, I am criticizing as Silynn said. If you actually presented this idea to the community and were open to discussion for improvement since us as a community play and experience the ranking systems I believe that our feedback as users is extremely valuable. Dismissive "who cares" or "your mom" or "numbers are meaningless" comments are not helpful. They do not fuel a positive engaging conversation. When people have negative opinions, it's always taken as trolling or complaining, but I believe that a big part of being a good administrator is differentiating between the people who wish to start trouble, and the people who seek change or offer honest feedback, good or bad.

Novixion wrote:

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.

Silynn wrote:

Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing

soooooooooo true 100% would have saved a lot of threads.

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

I love new things. I don't care if this is gonna kill my rank or if it's gonna be worse than PPv1 was.

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.

Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve

Purple wrote:

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.

Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve

holla

Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.

Wishy wrote:

Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.

osu!tp wasn't forced on anyone

Also, I think you underestimate the difficulty of designing a ranking system that can work for every single player, including new ones.

osu!tp would work on every level if it could use the whole score DB.

Oh. Okay

I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s

we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes

Wishy wrote:

I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.

I think he is, but I mean at the end of the day it is still his game.

at the end of the day it is still his game but doesn't mean he won't displease his user base.

[AirCoN] wrote:

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s

we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way

I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.

ITT: "I don't like this change because my rank went down"

If you're a competitive person, you should have no problems with working your way back up the rankings, to where you think you deserve to be. Unless you're afraid that you can't do it again...

I agree, but it's a bit complicated. Some peoples to play so much time and now, there aren't ranks. :]

ClawViper wrote:

I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.

People like to ignore any public announcements though. I swear the last time ppv2's listings were up, peppy put huge, bold, all-caps scrolling text on top of the page about it being unfinished and people still complained about its inaccuracy. So I doubt that better communication would've made a difference.

Maybe if the game shoved info on important changes like this in your face on the main menu... that'd be the best way to inform people, but it would be somewhat intrusive.

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way

I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.

^ this.

shit isn't shiny.

I made this thread not because of the fact that my rank is going up (~#50- ~#520). I didn't make it because I was unhappy with the system and wanted to change it. I instead made it because of how offended I was regarding how peppy treated the previous thread. I think we can all agree he has saved face and he has even left this thread open for discussion. That being said, peppy has been acknowledging what we have to say (even if our criticisms have been harsh and sometimes like complaints.) Enforcing positive change requires criticism, a lot of which we have seen throughout this thread (and the previous). As a result of our criticism, peppy has promised us that the ranking system will be out in a week and reassured us that the ppv2 rankings that came up were a mistake. I'd like for peppy to ask the community for advice and be open to criticism in the future regarding ranking metrics, too. From what I've seen he's being flexible with us. So in this instance, he has my trust and I'm slightly faithful *cough* that he won't betray it.

As both a competitive player and a farmer, I am looking forward towards ppv2. If it is everything peppy says it will be, I am actually excited for it. A good, solid ranking system means healthy competition that will encourage improvement in order to rank up. If I could achieve a good rank in a well-planned and thought out ranking metric without farming it or gaming the system maybe people would acknowledge that I have some skill, instead of insinuating that I am just a farmer and not skillful at all (which I do believe I don't entirely suck ass and deserve a decent rank.)

As for a ladder system, I would be very interested to see how it would play out and compare to the ranking system that's released. It's my understanding that the ladders will be a separate system from ppv2.

I've decided a profile sticker for ppv1 is a bad idea. While it would be nice to have some sort of token off my old rank, a token of a broken system would have no point. I still, however, would be interested in a third party ranking system like tom's for ppv1. It would be fun to play with, although I doubt anyone would use it nor would it be as accurate as it was before (since it would most likely be limited to top 50 scores).

Lastly, on a more personal note (if anyone cares): reading this thread has helped me realize I need to stop taking offense to criticism and look at it a little more objectively. I've noticed that I've taken offense to criticism in the past before and it probably reflects poorly upon me. So I apologize to anyone I may have overreacted to as far as defending myself goes.

Rewben2 wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way

I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.

there is no reason that can be given that would indicate a ladder system would be better or more fitting than one from ranking on maps. what are you going to do with a ladder system, get people to challenge others to a 1v1 on a specific map under certain conditions? if the two people are both capable of playing what the challenge is, regardless of the actual skill disparity between the two, the outcome may as well be decided by luck. if you want a ranking to be based on ELO and skill for that matter, why would you be so content with adding luck into the equation? it strays from what you're trying to achieve. if you want this ladder ranking to be the main metric used to measure one's skill, what place do specific map rankings have anymore? people will just go queue into a 1v1 and to be blunt, even the top players now will play like absolute shit and be rewarded for it. god forbid they, you know, try to set an impressive score on a map instead of taking part in a ranking system that has no place in osu. even as a side ranking i couldn't bring myself to take a ladder ranking seriously.