Kaoru wrote:

Wishy: we care because it is the official and accepted ranking system. TP is incomplete as well because the API does not allow it to calculate scores beyond the top 50.

Accepted? Some randoms accept it, anyone who actually knows a little bit about the game follows TP.

I don't mean to offend you, but you need to understand this. Most newbies/casuals don't really notice small changes, aren't really up to date with news/upcoming stuff, they don't even know how the ranking system works and probably don't really care that much. Some of us old/very old timers play because of osu!'s gameplay, not because what you are doing to the game/changing. Damn I could be playing your osu! release from 2/3 years ago and I wouldn't really care to be honest because the game hasn't changed AT ALL, it is the very exact same thing it always was, chase the dots, follow the longer dots and spin on spinners. High level players use osu!tp because pp is a joke. Non-competitive players don't care, etc, I could go on with this topic for ages.

Point is no matter what "direction" you want to take the game towards to, most people won't really give a shit about what you do, because it doesn't matter. This is an answer to the faith thing, why didn't you quit yet, etc.

Again I don't mean to offend you.

Trash Boat wrote:

nice discussion, i never saw peppy that active. the only thing i can say is that peppy is a human, like all in this site. he can't do magic or miracles, but he brought us an awesome game. imperfect but awesome. he has the right to take his time to fix any issues he may find without any complaints

Peppy has the right to do whatever the hell he wants but as long as people are buying Osu! supporter and peppy plans to develop Osu! as a living he should keep the ranking system working and fix bugged elements of the game in a timely matter. Making Osu! isn't peppy's hobby while he works full-time for a major company and he isn't a saint for making a free game without ads. Osu! is just a regular competitive games and if he doesn't want all the competitors to quit he should worry less about removing posts and fix his game as fast as possible.

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

Wishy wrote:

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

It's still a hobby to me?

Wishy wrote:

As far as I knew peppy quit his job to work full-time on osu!. This is a business lol it isn't some kind of hobby.

I believe I can almost quote him when he said something along the lines of "Osu! isn't just a hobby anymore" he did in fact say he quit his job to work full time on Osu! But I mean by definition, it's still his hobby.

Peppy, I'm just going to point out, regardless of what direction you plan to take this in, your current actions and attitude about the situation are the problem.

Telling people who play the game competitively to "just play for fun" is a huge insult, and I'm pretty sure you realize this, but the only reason osu! can be as successful as it is is because of the competitive nature of the game. Without overall ranking or leaderboards, most people would put maybe a few thousand plays into the game. When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.

Another thing is, while you keep saying "calm down, it's not complete, I'm still making changes", every single iteration of ppv2 I've seen so far is just as bad as all of the others in my opinion. I have not seen any changes in what I would consider a positive direction, so I'm very wary of where you might be heading with this. It's always better to throw out the criticism early while changes can be made, then let it fall to deaf ears too late (although, some would say the criticism is falling on deaf ears anyways). Some people are definitely getting way too upset way too soon, however there is nothing wrong with being vocal about the changes. If you make something public, it's public - even if it's in testing mode, people will give the feedback to help steer it in a positive direction, and you should listen to and accept that feedback without just dismissing it by saying "it's not complete"

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

Wishy wrote:

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

I mean, he probably does code Osu in his free time for pleasure - making it a hobby technically :/ Basketball players play basketball as a hobby and a job, no?

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be my guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Myke B wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Guess it depends on what you consider a hobby. If osu! is your main occupation then it's not a hobby.

I mean, he probably does code Osu in his free time for pleasure - making it a hobby technically :/ Basketball players play basketball as a hobby and a job, no?

^ This.

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be me guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Calm down. People will barely get used to changed instantly. Be a bit more patient with them.

Actually I like how this discussion goes but considering that the competitive gameplay should be focussed on tournament-like gameplay, the new pp is having a different direction, focussing more on the "gaining feedback when succeeding on a map" and less in measuring the skill of a player.
Player skill has various layers and it's hard to be summed up in a value, even Tom's metrics has it's flaws. It might measure the skill of each player quite good, but it's incapable to work for the broad mass of the players (the average Hard players, the Insane players who do not arrive in the top of the ladderboards).

Considering the general idea of the ppv2, it seems to allow to be farmable way more. In ppv1, farming it was like "circumventing it's purpose" and "misdirecting the measurement by fooling it". In ppv2, it seems like people are supposed to be rewarded to single successes. It tends to be more like the Ranked-Score we had in the past, but tbh the Ranked Score kept people way better here (grinding stuff is always attractive to an extend). We all know that this isnt measuring the SKILL of a player appropriately, but that's not even the point of the system.

I can understand that the top-tier players really do not want to have farmers above pro players. Absolutely understandable. But a ranking system is always like walking a tightrope. For me and many other average players, who can not highrank on Insanes (or do not even want to try it - like me), they don't feel any gain, no matter how much they improve (considering that for my side, I can play a lot of intense shit but my ranking was not moving at all). I know that my skill might not have been improved a lot, but I need some gainful feedback to keep me playing it. I need the progress, and many others do. And many others loved it (during Ranked Score). Ppv2 is doing the same with limiting the farmability a bit. It considers difficulty more. Not only the hitobjects amount and achieveable highest combo.

I also want to mention that the current rankings are like "not done" yet, it seems. It's weird to draw conclusions right now.

For the competitive gameplay, the ranking charts are a good chance here. Unfortunately they are quite dead and unrewarding right now (not offering enough e-pencil it seems). But I am working on resurrecting this. And hopefully we can go into new directions here - and stop drowning in the sober of a seemingly broken ranking system that is prolly just misunderstood.

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be my guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

To be 100% honest, I more concerned with how long the "final" product will take. Because once it's done, then we can tell you what we do or don't like, and the reply won't be "it's not done". Just my opinion, but I really do thank you Peppy for being active in the post.

Loctav wrote:

peppy wrote:

If you take "play for fun while next version is ready" as an insult, then please, be me guest and use the uninstall button.

You guys are so spoilt >_<

Calm down. People will barely get used to changed instantly. Be a bit more patient with them.

Actually I like how this discussion goes but considering that the competitive gameplay should be focussed on tournament-like gameplay, the new pp is having a different direction, focussing more on the "gaining feedback when succeeding on a map" and less in measuring the skill of a player.
Player skill has various layers and it's hard to be summed up in a value, even Tom's metrics has it's flaws. It might measure the skill of each player quite good, but it's incapable to work for the broad mass of the players (the average Hard players, the Insane players who do not arrive in the top of the ladderboards).

Considering the general idea of the ppv2, it seems to allow to be farmable way more. In ppv1, farming it was like "circumventing it's purpose" and "misdirecting the measurement by fooling it". In ppv2, it seems like people are supposed to be rewarded to single successes. It tends to be more like the Ranked-Score we had in the past, but tbh the Ranked Score kept people way better here (grinding stuff is always attractive to an extend). We all know that this isnt measuring the SKILL of a player appropriately, but that's not even the point of the system.

I can understand that the top-tier players really do not want to have farmers above pro players. Absolutely understandable. But a ranking system is always like walking a tightrope. For me and many other average players, who can not highrank on Insanes (or do not even want to try it - like me), they don't feel any gain, no matter how much they improve (considering that for my side, I can play a lot of intense shit but my ranking was not moving at all). I know that my skill might not have been improved a lot, but I need some gainful feedback to keep me playing it. I need the progress, and many others do. And many others loved it (during Ranked Score). Ppv2 is doing the same with limiting the farmability a bit. It considers difficulty more. Not only the hitobjects amount and achieveable highest combo.

I also want to mention that the current rankings are like "not done" yet, it seems. It's weird to draw conclusions right now.

For the competitive gameplay, the ranking charts are a good chance here. Unfortunately they are quite dead and unrewarding right now (not offering enough e-pencil it seems). But I am working on resurrecting this. And hopefully we can go into new directions here - and stop drowning in the sober of a seemingly broken ranking system that is prolly just misunderstood.

I felt like adding more than the top 500 was a decent addition for the "average hard players" I mean, they should feel a gain, but they can't expect to make much of gain casually playing hard maps :/

Myke B wrote:

To be 100% honest, I more concerned with how long the "final" product will take. Because once it's done, then we can tell you what we do or don't like, and the reply won't be "it's not done". Just my opinion, but I really do thank you Peppy for being active in the post.

Expanding on this I feel like maybe its the uncertainty which is rustling everyone jimmies; People feel like they've lost something and want to know how to get it back but can't because a ranking system isn't even being implemented right now. I'm sure that once ppv2 has been released and refined it will be okay.

The numbers tha you saw briefly weren't calculated. The processor wasn't running. I was migrating across to another branch and let v2 display briefly, before realizing it was horribly broken. Please do not base any feedback on what you may have seen. It was honestly giving maps weifhtings OPPOSITE to what it should have. As in easy would get you much more than insane+.

If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to challenge my decision to remove pp while it is fixed. The reason I did this in the first place was because of the number of complaints about pp not updating. I still feel the decision to hide it is best for now.

I reworded my announcement not as some accused – to change my actions – but to present what I am currently doing in a way that will cause less speculation and calm people until I'm ready to complete the equation. Please give me a week to finish this off.

Peppy, I think you should return pp for now that way players have an objective to play for in the interim. Playing without ranks would make the game very lackluster for some of us, and returning pp would enable anyone who cares about it to enjoy it until it is replaced. If you want to appease the players who are complaining about an official system not updating, maybe you could outsource ppv1 and do something similar to tp with it. Or make another sort of disclaimer about it being truncated and not working as intended, so that people know that it's not updating properly.

Thats great! By confirming that the numbers people saw weren't final and were actually extremely broken, this will calm down the masses and lull them into a nice, comfortable sleep with a circular pillow filled with feathers from a peacock.

Kaoru wrote:

Peppy, I think you should return pp for now that way players have an objective to play for in the interim. Playing without ranks would make the game very lackluster for some of us, and returning pp would enable anyone who cares about it to enjoy it until it is replaced. If you want to appease the players who are complaining about an official system not updating, maybe you could outsource ppv1 and do something similar to tp with it. Or make another sort of disclaimer about it being truncated and not working as intended, so that people know that it's not updating properly.

he already said he disabled it so you will forget about your old rank

As rankings will be changing substantially, keeping the old visible is pointless. It will not return until I have completed updates. Maybe take a week break?

peppy wrote:

The numbers tha you saw briefly weren't calculated. The processor wasn't running. I was migrating across to another branch and let v2 display briefly, before realizing it was horribly broken. Please do not base any feedback on what you may have seen. It was honestly giving maps weifhtings OPPOSITE to what it should have. As in easy would get you much more than insane+.

This would have been really nice to know, and would have prevented a lot of the freak-outs. I also think that PPv1 should remain instead of nothing, but with a disclaimer about the new maps not updating PP. I know it would be "pointless" as you said, but it's not for some of us :/ Constantly updating the Performance post would be extremely nice, because most of all, we just want to be in loop.

Question then: If you replace ppv1 in favor of a later version of ppv2, would it be possible to outsource the ranking system elsewhere, or keep a token of our old rank on our profiles somehow?

Kaoru wrote:

Question then: If you replace ppv1 in favor of a later version of ppv2, would it be possible to outsource the ranking system elsewhere, or keep a token of our old rank on our profiles somehow?

Seems extremely pointless imo. Just keep using TP until the updated version of V2 arrives.

No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!

Having a rank is not superficial to me. Knowing where you place in a crowd and seeing yourself improve in more than one way is comforting. For someone like myself who has very little to be proud of in this lifetime, In a very short period I have grown to appreciate my progress in this game. Progress which has been validated by a rank. This game would still be fun without it, but that feeling you get when your score rating comes up at the end of a map makes all the trouble worth it. I'd be playing without that happy realization that my score meant something in the end. Even if the fact that it would go away in two weeks makes it invalid, in that context, I would still rather it be there until the new product is ready for a live test. Having nothing at all just feels empty.

And unlike the 3k or so plays that the people who are pro this change have, In 5 months I've played nearly 20k plays. Im part of the community of people who sink their time into this game, and actively seek to improve and enjoy to watch their own improvement.. and I believe that we should not be dismissed.

peppy wrote:

No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!

Is a week the ETA for ranking being back up (and hopefully more towards what you meant for in the first place)?

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

Myke B wrote:

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.

Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.

I did not even read the thread i am just talking out of my ass like your average retard.

Wishy wrote:

it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

Pretty much this, you guys should be grateful that system is not working anymore.

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."

01001110 01101111

It's not about being proud of the difficulty of the songs but rather the time spent polishing that rank and beating your friends. If you spent a lot of time on any video game (whether it was farming a legendary in World of Warcraft, or getting all the empty bottles in Legend of Zelda) you always liked having a token of your accomplishments. You don't have to be such a tp elitist Wishy. Some people appreciate pp too.

Regardless we're getting off topic. Peppy was leaving the thread open for further criticisms on his decision to remove pp, not instagate LOLTPISBETTER arguements

Which btw, I think tp is a better ranking system. I'd just like to have some sort of way to remember all the time I spent on pp

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s

I think most of us would agree the old system was broken/flawed. Now that we have that established, don't you guys believe that a system that is broken/flawed should be fixed and replaced with a system that works? Keeping a broken system, especially a system that identifies your ranking with the rest of the community, is something that should definitely be changed as soon as possible. I think if I posted this a week ago, many people would agree that the system needs an update.

Now that it's happening... Well, peppy has said the ppv2 system he implemented temporarily wasn't accurate, for starters. What you may have seen as your rank then will not be your rank when it comes out properly. Secondly, even if the system was introduced accurately and the rank you did see was accurate and you're upset about how your rank was decreased... Then maybe you didn't belong at the rank you had in ppv1? It was a bad system, seeing the number it gave you as being accurate is just a no.

Whatever rank this supposedly accurate new system gives you should be the one you stick by, not the old one. Criticize it when it is actually out. As for having a sticker or some bullshit showing your ppv1 rank, I think that's a bit against-the-idea seeing as we're trying to replace a broken system. I'm sure you all remember your ppv1 rank - You can just include on your userlog what it was if it means that much to you.

As for the people saying "our efforts have gone to waste", well no. Your efforts of farming pp in the old system may have gone (if you're complaining about it then you're probably a farmer) but if you were actually a good player and believe you belong at the rank that ppv1 gave you, then you should be at a similar rank when ppv2 is released. If not, then use your skills (it's not like a pp change is going to change your ability to play the game) to earn yourself a good spot in the new system. This is assuming the new system is more accurate then the old one.

As for the next week while rankings are disabled, your scores do indeed count towards the new system. There's absolutely no reason to stop trying as much as you were beforehand, the only difference is you don't know if you are ranking up.

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."

01001110 01101111

Pretty much this. Playing for fun and playing competitively are the exact same thing to me. Being competitive IS fun and this goes for most games I play. You can call it stupid or pathetic or whatever you want but I enjoy being better at things than other people (I don't try to be an arse about it though). To give an example, I used to play Halo: Reach a lot and even though the game itself had become very stale I still had fun playing it because I was so good at it and I would keep winning and rising on the leader boards. If there was not a leader board, I would have stopped playing a lot sooner. I don't think there is anything wrong with this mindset. Competition makes things interesting, and playing purely for the sake of getting a high ranking is perfectly fine. I was rank 11.8k on osu! before ppv1 was removed. It wasn't an amazing rank but it was a rank that I worked hard for and increased gradually over time. When I broke 20k I was super happy, seeing your rank improve is an awesome feeling.


That being said, it is too early to start complaining about the system considering we haven't even seen it yet. All we can do is make suggestions and trust Peppy's judgement. As long as the new ranking system can be competitive I don't mind. Just don't make the last few months/years for some players feel like a waste.


Let's be patient everyone, this isn't the end of the world. We need to wait it out and see what happens.

I just want a number beside my name even if it's a random one.

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

It's just for a week tops, and your rankings that you gain between now and then will still contribute towards the new rank you will get. If you really cared about your rank you would continue playing for when it came out so it would be better, despite not being able to see it being updated now.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?

I agree. If TP isn't enough to keep you settled for a week or two, then you really need to have an introspective look at yourself and learn to have patience. Training and learning to play osu! is in itself a very intense exercise in patience.

Silynn wrote:

When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.

I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

I just really hope it's actually soon, and not a couple of years soon I mostly just care about a lot of the high voted things in feature request like teams/friend request notification/pp in results screen, etc. and want them to come in a timely manner.

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.

Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??