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As a reply to the previously locked thread

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Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
I agree. If TP isn't enough to keep you settled for a week or two, then you really need to have an introspective look at yourself and learn to have patience. Training and learning to play osu! is in itself a very intense exercise in patience.

Silynn wrote:

When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.
I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Myke B
1,074 posts
Joined April 2012
Myke B

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
I just really hope it's actually soon, and not a couple of years soon :P I mostly just care about a lot of the high voted things in feature request like teams/friend request notification/pp in results screen, etc. and want them to come in a timely manner.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??
ryza
679 posts
Joined October 2011
ryza

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*.
Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing

Purple wrote:

I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.
I wasn't complaining about the rankings being gone, I was complaining about peppy (and others) condescendingly telling people to stop caring about rankings and play for fun, as if the only way to have fun with a game is to play it casually. However, most of those statements have since been changed/revoked/reworded in interest of saving face.
Kayla
259 posts
Joined August 2013
Kayla
I will offer criticism as I have when I am presented with change or some form of substance to criticize. I'm not complaining, I am criticizing as Silynn said. If you actually presented this idea to the community and were open to discussion for improvement since us as a community play and experience the ranking systems I believe that our feedback as users is extremely valuable. Dismissive "who cares" or "your mom" or "numbers are meaningless" comments are not helpful. They do not fuel a positive engaging conversation. When people have negative opinions, it's always taken as trolling or complaining, but I believe that a big part of being a good administrator is differentiating between the people who wish to start trouble, and the people who seek change or offer honest feedback, good or bad.
Myke B
1,074 posts
Joined April 2012
Myke B

Novixion wrote:

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??
I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.

Silynn wrote:

Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing
soooooooooo true 100% would have saved a lot of threads.
PlasticSmoothie
242 posts
Joined March 2010
PlasticSmoothie

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
I love new things. I don't care if this is gonna kill my rank or if it's gonna be worse than PPv1 was.

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.
Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve
Myke B
1,074 posts
Joined April 2012
Myke B

Purple wrote:

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.
Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve
holla
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

Wishy wrote:

Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.
osu!tp wasn't forced on anyone

Also, I think you underestimate the difficulty of designing a ranking system that can work for every single player, including new ones.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
osu!tp would work on every level if it could use the whole score DB.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
Oh. Okay
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.
Icyteru
535 posts
Joined August 2011
Icyteru

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s
we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes
Myke B
1,074 posts
Joined April 2012
Myke B

Wishy wrote:

I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.
I think he is, but I mean at the end of the day it is still his game.
Zeraph
266 posts
Joined September 2012
Zeraph
at the end of the day it is still his game but doesn't mean he won't displease his user base.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

[AirCoN] wrote:

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s
we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes
i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
ClawViper
128 posts
Joined May 2013
ClawViper
I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.
NotCookie_old
NotCookie_old
ITT: "I don't like this change because my rank went down"

If you're a competitive person, you should have no problems with working your way back up the rankings, to where you think you deserve to be. Unless you're afraid that you can't do it again...
danielaover
7 posts
Joined July 2013
danielaover
I agree, but it's a bit complicated. Some peoples to play so much time and now, there aren't ranks. :]
TakuMii
1,874 posts
Joined October 2009
TakuMii

ClawViper wrote:

I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.
People like to ignore any public announcements though. I swear the last time ppv2's listings were up, peppy put huge, bold, all-caps scrolling text on top of the page about it being unfinished and people still complained about its inaccuracy. So I doubt that better communication would've made a difference.

Maybe if the game shoved info on important changes like this in your face on the main menu... that'd be the best way to inform people, but it would be somewhat intrusive.
Last edited by TakuMii , edited 2 times in total.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.
Yabuki Nako
99 posts
Joined July 2008
Yabuki Nako

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.
^ this.
Zeraph
266 posts
Joined September 2012
Zeraph
shit isn't shiny.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Topic Starter
Yarissa
I made this thread not because of the fact that my rank is going up (~#50- ~#520). I didn't make it because I was unhappy with the system and wanted to change it. I instead made it because of how offended I was regarding how peppy treated the previous thread. I think we can all agree he has saved face and he has even left this thread open for discussion. That being said, peppy has been acknowledging what we have to say (even if our criticisms have been harsh and sometimes like complaints.) Enforcing positive change requires criticism, a lot of which we have seen throughout this thread (and the previous). As a result of our criticism, peppy has promised us that the ranking system will be out in a week and reassured us that the ppv2 rankings that came up were a mistake. I'd like for peppy to ask the community for advice and be open to criticism in the future regarding ranking metrics, too. From what I've seen he's being flexible with us. So in this instance, he has my trust and I'm slightly faithful *cough* that he won't betray it.

As both a competitive player and a farmer, I am looking forward towards ppv2. If it is everything peppy says it will be, I am actually excited for it. A good, solid ranking system means healthy competition that will encourage improvement in order to rank up. If I could achieve a good rank in a well-planned and thought out ranking metric without farming it or gaming the system maybe people would acknowledge that I have some skill, instead of insinuating that I am just a farmer and not skillful at all (which I do believe I don't entirely suck ass and deserve a decent rank.)

As for a ladder system, I would be very interested to see how it would play out and compare to the ranking system that's released. It's my understanding that the ladders will be a separate system from ppv2.

I've decided a profile sticker for ppv1 is a bad idea. While it would be nice to have some sort of token off my old rank, a token of a broken system would have no point. I still, however, would be interested in a third party ranking system like tom's for ppv1. It would be fun to play with, although I doubt anyone would use it nor would it be as accurate as it was before (since it would most likely be limited to top 50 scores).

Lastly, on a more personal note (if anyone cares): reading this thread has helped me realize I need to stop taking offense to criticism and look at it a little more objectively. I've noticed that I've taken offense to criticism in the past before and it probably reflects poorly upon me. So I apologize to anyone I may have overreacted to as far as defending myself goes.
Last edited by Yarissa , edited 1 time in total.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Rewben2 wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.
there is no reason that can be given that would indicate a ladder system would be better or more fitting than one from ranking on maps. what are you going to do with a ladder system, get people to challenge others to a 1v1 on a specific map under certain conditions? if the two people are both capable of playing what the challenge is, regardless of the actual skill disparity between the two, the outcome may as well be decided by luck. if you want a ranking to be based on ELO and skill for that matter, why would you be so content with adding luck into the equation? it strays from what you're trying to achieve. if you want this ladder ranking to be the main metric used to measure one's skill, what place do specific map rankings have anymore? people will just go queue into a 1v1 and to be blunt, even the top players now will play like absolute shit and be rewarded for it. god forbid they, you know, try to set an impressive score on a map instead of taking part in a ranking system that has no place in osu. even as a side ranking i couldn't bring myself to take a ladder ranking seriously.
Last edited by JappyBabes , edited 1 time in total.
Soarezi
Soarezi
Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
ryza
679 posts
Joined October 2011
ryza
tom can't be trusted
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-

Zeraph wrote:

shit isn't shiny.

amen brother
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

JappyBabes wrote:

there is no reason that can be given that would indicate a ladder system would be better or more fitting than one from ranking on maps. what are you going to do with a ladder system, get people to challenge others to a 1v1 on a specific map under certain conditions? if the two people are both capable of playing what the challenge is, regardless of the actual skill disparity between the two, the outcome may as well be decided by luck. if you want a ranking to be based on ELO and skill for that matter, why would you be so content with adding luck into the equation? it strays from what you're trying to achieve. if you want this ladder ranking to be the main metric used to measure one's skill, what place do specific map rankings have anymore? people will just go queue into a 1v1 and to be blunt, even the top players now will play like absolute shit and be rewarded for it. god forbid they, you know, try to set an impressive score on a map instead of taking part in a ranking system that has no place in osu. even as a side ranking i couldn't bring myself to take a ladder ranking seriously.
Ah, so pretty much the fact that it's luck-based. I don't think a ladder will ever replace the pp system, but would definitely be something on the side. One way to make it more fair would be to choose a random map (out of a large pool so people don't memorise maps as much) and have it be a best out of 10 or something, so it isn't decided from few games.

Don't you think the OWC has a similar issue?
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

Soarezi wrote:

Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
Only my Opinion, but I think, that Osu!tp is only the small form from the PPv1 System ... in PPv1 you gained Points for Ranks under 1000 and it was Easy to Farm with Easy-Hards

In Osu!tp you gain tp for be in the Top 50 in a Map ...

All Skilled Players will play normal, but all not so good Players (The Players who can't reach Top 50 in a Insane (Like me)) will farm Easy's and Normal's, maybe Hards

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System

^Yeah, my English is bad
---------------------------------------
Haha PP are Hidden ... i laughed so hard, when I saw this
Last edited by Yano , edited 2 times in total.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Rewben2 wrote:

Ah, so pretty much the fact that it's luck-based. I don't think a ladder will ever replace the pp system, but would definitely be something on the side. One way to make it more fair would be to choose a random map (out of a large pool so people don't memorise maps as much) and have it be a best out of 10 or something, so it isn't decided from few games.

Don't you think the OWC has a similar issue?
that's also problematic as each player has their own merits so choosing a map randomly doesn't help in an overall ranking which is decided by your elo, i see that as more luck. i don't think it's a system where the randomness becomes acceptable/negligible after a certain amount of results either. and yeah owc has that along with a whole range of other issues.
deletemyaccount
730 posts
Joined May 2013
deletemyaccount
A ladder system sounds fun but it just wouldn't work with such a dynamic game like osu.
Soarezi
Soarezi

Ultrayano wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
Only my Opinion, but I think, that Osu!tp is only the small form from the PPv1 System ... in PPv1 you gained Points for Ranks under 1000 and it was Easy to Farm with Easy-Hards

In Osu!tp you gain tp for be in the Top 50 in a Map ...

All Skilled Players will play normal, but all not so good Players (The Players who can't reach Top 50 in a Insane (Like me)) will farm Easy's and Normal's, maybe Hards

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System

^Yeah, my English is bad
---------------------------------------
Haha PP are Hidden ... i laughed so hard, when I saw this
You don't get TP at all from easy/hards so it's not farmable.
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

Soarezi wrote:

You don't get TP at all from easy/hards so it's not farmable.
deletemyaccount
730 posts
Joined May 2013
deletemyaccount

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Touhosu?

i believe
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213

Ultrayano wrote:

Easy/normal top 50s are only effective for getting your first few tp points. After you get to around the 1500~ tp points at least, getting a top 50 score is pretty easy and it's more about how hard it is to actually get the score.

I don't think tp is a good system because it only works for anyone higher than rank 1000 and isn't optimized for lower ranks.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

Ultrayano wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System
It would be easier to get tp for low ranked players but it wouldn't be much easier for high ranked players since most scores are in the top 50 and even if you got a sub rank 50 score, other people would also get sub rank 50 scores which would equalize all the ranks.
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