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Myke B

Kaoru wrote:

Question then: If you replace ppv1 in favor of a later version of ppv2, would it be possible to outsource the ranking system elsewhere, or keep a token of our old rank on our profiles somehow?
Seems extremely pointless imo. Just keep using TP until the updated version of V2 arrives.
peppy
No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!
Kayla
Having a rank is not superficial to me. Knowing where you place in a crowd and seeing yourself improve in more than one way is comforting. For someone like myself who has very little to be proud of in this lifetime, In a very short period I have grown to appreciate my progress in this game. Progress which has been validated by a rank. This game would still be fun without it, but that feeling you get when your score rating comes up at the end of a map makes all the trouble worth it. I'd be playing without that happy realization that my score meant something in the end. Even if the fact that it would go away in two weeks makes it invalid, in that context, I would still rather it be there until the new product is ready for a live test. Having nothing at all just feels empty.

And unlike the 3k or so plays that the people who are pro this change have, In 5 months I've played nearly 20k plays. Im part of the community of people who sink their time into this game, and actively seek to improve and enjoy to watch their own improvement.. and I believe that we should not be dismissed.
Myke B

peppy wrote:

No. I believe on progress. You are free toake your own ranking site if you'd like to make your own take on stuff!

Is a week the ETA for ranking being back up (and hopefully more towards what you meant for in the first place)?
Wishy
Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
Lokovodo
Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.
Myke B

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.
Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.
Lokovodo

Myke B wrote:

Lokovodo wrote:

Okay peppy has abandoned us so lets all put our osu! tp rank on our profiles and all focus tp.
Stop. Peppy has actually been talking to us, so I wouldn't call that abandoning. Put our tp rank on our profiles? You act as if we weren't already doing that.

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
Agree. People say they hate PP, and now want to save it lol.
I did not even read the thread i am just talking out of my ass like your average retard.
Darksonic

Wishy wrote:

it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
Pretty much this, you guys should be grateful that system is not working anymore.
Kayla
Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."
01001110 01101111
Topic Starter
Yarissa
It's not about being proud of the difficulty of the songs but rather the time spent polishing that rank and beating your friends. If you spent a lot of time on any video game (whether it was farming a legendary in World of Warcraft, or getting all the empty bottles in Legend of Zelda) you always liked having a token of your accomplishments. You don't have to be such a tp elitist Wishy. Some people appreciate pp too.

Regardless we're getting off topic. Peppy was leaving the thread open for further criticisms on his decision to remove pp, not instagate LOLTPISBETTER arguements

Which btw, I think tp is a better ranking system. I'd just like to have some sort of way to remember all the time I spent on pp
Saya6669
Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s
Rewben2
I think most of us would agree the old system was broken/flawed. Now that we have that established, don't you guys believe that a system that is broken/flawed should be fixed and replaced with a system that works? Keeping a broken system, especially a system that identifies your ranking with the rest of the community, is something that should definitely be changed as soon as possible. I think if I posted this a week ago, many people would agree that the system needs an update.

Now that it's happening... Well, peppy has said the ppv2 system he implemented temporarily wasn't accurate, for starters. What you may have seen as your rank then will not be your rank when it comes out properly. Secondly, even if the system was introduced accurately and the rank you did see was accurate and you're upset about how your rank was decreased... Then maybe you didn't belong at the rank you had in ppv1? It was a bad system, seeing the number it gave you as being accurate is just a no.

Whatever rank this supposedly accurate new system gives you should be the one you stick by, not the old one. Criticize it when it is actually out. As for having a sticker or some bullshit showing your ppv1 rank, I think that's a bit against-the-idea seeing as we're trying to replace a broken system. I'm sure you all remember your ppv1 rank - You can just include on your userlog what it was if it means that much to you.

As for the people saying "our efforts have gone to waste", well no. Your efforts of farming pp in the old system may have gone (if you're complaining about it then you're probably a farmer) but if you were actually a good player and believe you belong at the rank that ppv1 gave you, then you should be at a similar rank when ppv2 is released. If not, then use your skills (it's not like a pp change is going to change your ability to play the game) to earn yourself a good spot in the new system. This is assuming the new system is more accurate then the old one.

As for the next week while rankings are disabled, your scores do indeed count towards the new system. There's absolutely no reason to stop trying as much as you were beforehand, the only difference is you don't know if you are ranking up.
Xcross

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.

"Performance Rank: Stop caring about numbers."
01001110 01101111
Pretty much this. Playing for fun and playing competitively are the exact same thing to me. Being competitive IS fun and this goes for most games I play. You can call it stupid or pathetic or whatever you want but I enjoy being better at things than other people (I don't try to be an arse about it though). To give an example, I used to play Halo: Reach a lot and even though the game itself had become very stale I still had fun playing it because I was so good at it and I would keep winning and rising on the leader boards. If there was not a leader board, I would have stopped playing a lot sooner. I don't think there is anything wrong with this mindset. Competition makes things interesting, and playing purely for the sake of getting a high ranking is perfectly fine. I was rank 11.8k on osu! before ppv1 was removed. It wasn't an amazing rank but it was a rank that I worked hard for and increased gradually over time. When I broke 20k I was super happy, seeing your rank improve is an awesome feeling.


That being said, it is too early to start complaining about the system considering we haven't even seen it yet. All we can do is make suggestions and trust Peppy's judgement. As long as the new ranking system can be competitive I don't mind. Just don't make the last few months/years for some players feel like a waste.


Let's be patient everyone, this isn't the end of the world. We need to wait it out and see what happens.
Pettanko
I just want a number beside my name even if it's a random one.
Rewben2

Kurimu wrote:

Something is better than nothing. I went from 8.3k to 10.3k from ppv1 to ppv2. Big deal. My rank barely moved. I dont care which system is implemented, if or if not ppv2 is better or worse than ppv1, but a system in place is necessary. I don't like being told that what I enjoy in this game cannot be considered "fun". I don't like being patronized because I enjoy ranking. What I enjoy is what I enjoy, thats that is progress; exactly what Peppy wishes to enforce. Am I not a valid piece of the puzzle? Where is my progress? Being hidden by sarcastic messages that imply that I'm incorrect to be proud of my rank and that I'm playing osu wrong.
It's just for a week tops, and your rankings that you gain between now and then will still contribute towards the new rank you will get. If you really cared about your rank you would continue playing for when it came out so it would be better, despite not being able to see it being updated now.
Purple

Wishy wrote:

Haha people wanting their old pp rank to be saved somewhere, it's just what you get from farming hards why do you care?
I agree. If TP isn't enough to keep you settled for a week or two, then you really need to have an introspective look at yourself and learn to have patience. Training and learning to play osu! is in itself a very intense exercise in patience.

Silynn wrote:

When someone gets seriously into the game, they're always trying to better their skills to meet goals, but without the competitive and community aspect of the game, it wouldn't be so fulfilling. I think telling players to just relax and play for fun is dismissing all effort they've put into getting better at the game, and it really pisses me off, to be completely honest.
I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.
peppy
Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Myke B

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
I just really hope it's actually soon, and not a couple of years soon :P I mostly just care about a lot of the high voted things in feature request like teams/friend request notification/pp in results screen, etc. and want them to come in a timely manner.
Novixion

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??
ryza

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*.
Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing

Purple wrote:

I have watched the scores you've gotten over time Silynn and I honestly think you have improved a lot really fast. Do you really need to have a grade given to you to feel improvement at this game? I figured you'd be beyond that at this point. I realize it makes the game fun to play in a certain way, but you can wait a week or two for the rankings to come back.
I wasn't complaining about the rankings being gone, I was complaining about peppy (and others) condescendingly telling people to stop caring about rankings and play for fun, as if the only way to have fun with a game is to play it casually. However, most of those statements have since been changed/revoked/reworded in interest of saving face.
Kayla
I will offer criticism as I have when I am presented with change or some form of substance to criticize. I'm not complaining, I am criticizing as Silynn said. If you actually presented this idea to the community and were open to discussion for improvement since us as a community play and experience the ranking systems I believe that our feedback as users is extremely valuable. Dismissive "who cares" or "your mom" or "numbers are meaningless" comments are not helpful. They do not fuel a positive engaging conversation. When people have negative opinions, it's always taken as trolling or complaining, but I believe that a big part of being a good administrator is differentiating between the people who wish to start trouble, and the people who seek change or offer honest feedback, good or bad.
Myke B

Novixion wrote:

peppy wrote:

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Is one of them now that more of our scores show up on our profiles? Like top 1000??
I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.

Silynn wrote:

Introducing change gets a hell of a lot easier if you say everything clearly from the beginning, I find.

I also disagree with the people being angry at the changes themselves (I am personally upset, but for different reasons), while disliking them is fine, yelling about it and using personal attacks gets nowhere.

But please do not confuse criticism as being angry, which a lot of people seem to be doing
soooooooooo true 100% would have saved a lot of threads.
PlasticSmoothie

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
I love new things. I don't care if this is gonna kill my rank or if it's gonna be worse than PPv1 was.

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.
Purple

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.
Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve
Myke B

Purple wrote:

Myke B wrote:

I have no idea why you would want that to be shown on your profile.
Can't wait to show off my generic TV size [Easy] full combos I spent 600 plays each to achieve
holla
Wishy
Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.
Purple

Wishy wrote:

Change isn't actually hard, when osu!tp came out nobody really had a problem with it since it worked pretty much fine. It's hard when you take like an year to develop a "revolutionary ranking system" which ends up being as bad as the other one.
osu!tp wasn't forced on anyone

Also, I think you underestimate the difficulty of designing a ranking system that can work for every single player, including new ones.
Wishy
osu!tp would work on every level if it could use the whole score DB.
Purple
Oh. Okay
Wishy
I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.
Icyteru

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s
we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes
Myke B

Wishy wrote:

I mean it's not like you have to develop a new idea, it's already there and it's been proven to work. Just take that and make it even better, you got access to every score in the game to do trial and error, it shouldn't be too hard to tweak some stuff you see doesn't work.

Not saying it should be easy but I think peppy is trying to reinvent dynamite rather than just use it.
I think he is, but I mean at the end of the day it is still his game.
Zeraph
at the end of the day it is still his game but doesn't mean he won't displease his user base.
JappyBabes

[AirCoN] wrote:

chimeralolz wrote:

Obviously we just need ranked matchmaking. /s
we don't need the /s

because it would be 10x better, click find a match, wait to be matched up with people of similar rank, gain/lose elo based on outcomes
i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
ClawViper
I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.
NotCookie_old
ITT: "I don't like this change because my rank went down"

If you're a competitive person, you should have no problems with working your way back up the rankings, to where you think you deserve to be. Unless you're afraid that you can't do it again...
danielaover
I agree, but it's a bit complicated. Some peoples to play so much time and now, there aren't ranks. :]
TakuMii

ClawViper wrote:

I think what caused the shitstorm was a lack of good PR. If peppy had explained things clearly that visible ppv2 that day was broken to the maximum and does not reflect the real future ranking system, and addressed the concerns and complaints politely, I doubt the outrage would be so big.
People like to ignore any public announcements though. I swear the last time ppv2's listings were up, peppy put huge, bold, all-caps scrolling text on top of the page about it being unfinished and people still complained about its inaccuracy. So I doubt that better communication would've made a difference.

Maybe if the game shoved info on important changes like this in your face on the main menu... that'd be the best way to inform people, but it would be somewhat intrusive.
Rewben2

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.
ARRACHEZ VOUS

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

NEW THINGS ARE SHINY.
^ this.
Zeraph
shit isn't shiny.
Topic Starter
Yarissa
I made this thread not because of the fact that my rank is going up (~#50- ~#520). I didn't make it because I was unhappy with the system and wanted to change it. I instead made it because of how offended I was regarding how peppy treated the previous thread. I think we can all agree he has saved face and he has even left this thread open for discussion. That being said, peppy has been acknowledging what we have to say (even if our criticisms have been harsh and sometimes like complaints.) Enforcing positive change requires criticism, a lot of which we have seen throughout this thread (and the previous). As a result of our criticism, peppy has promised us that the ranking system will be out in a week and reassured us that the ppv2 rankings that came up were a mistake. I'd like for peppy to ask the community for advice and be open to criticism in the future regarding ranking metrics, too. From what I've seen he's being flexible with us. So in this instance, he has my trust and I'm slightly faithful *cough* that he won't betray it.

As both a competitive player and a farmer, I am looking forward towards ppv2. If it is everything peppy says it will be, I am actually excited for it. A good, solid ranking system means healthy competition that will encourage improvement in order to rank up. If I could achieve a good rank in a well-planned and thought out ranking metric without farming it or gaming the system maybe people would acknowledge that I have some skill, instead of insinuating that I am just a farmer and not skillful at all (which I do believe I don't entirely suck ass and deserve a decent rank.)

As for a ladder system, I would be very interested to see how it would play out and compare to the ranking system that's released. It's my understanding that the ladders will be a separate system from ppv2.

I've decided a profile sticker for ppv1 is a bad idea. While it would be nice to have some sort of token off my old rank, a token of a broken system would have no point. I still, however, would be interested in a third party ranking system like tom's for ppv1. It would be fun to play with, although I doubt anyone would use it nor would it be as accurate as it was before (since it would most likely be limited to top 50 scores).

Lastly, on a more personal note (if anyone cares): reading this thread has helped me realize I need to stop taking offense to criticism and look at it a little more objectively. I've noticed that I've taken offense to criticism in the past before and it probably reflects poorly upon me. So I apologize to anyone I may have overreacted to as far as defending myself goes.
JappyBabes

Rewben2 wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

i'm confused as to how in the fuck a ladder system would be good for osu in any way
I don't see why it wouldn't be? At least explain why you think it would be bad. There's other rhythm games that have 1v1 modes, and using a 1v1 mode you can easily establish a ladder based on an elo system or something.
there is no reason that can be given that would indicate a ladder system would be better or more fitting than one from ranking on maps. what are you going to do with a ladder system, get people to challenge others to a 1v1 on a specific map under certain conditions? if the two people are both capable of playing what the challenge is, regardless of the actual skill disparity between the two, the outcome may as well be decided by luck. if you want a ranking to be based on ELO and skill for that matter, why would you be so content with adding luck into the equation? it strays from what you're trying to achieve. if you want this ladder ranking to be the main metric used to measure one's skill, what place do specific map rankings have anymore? people will just go queue into a 1v1 and to be blunt, even the top players now will play like absolute shit and be rewarded for it. god forbid they, you know, try to set an impressive score on a map instead of taking part in a ranking system that has no place in osu. even as a side ranking i couldn't bring myself to take a ladder ranking seriously.
Soarezi
Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
ryza
tom can't be trusted
-Ryuujii-

Zeraph wrote:

shit isn't shiny.

amen brother
Rewben2

JappyBabes wrote:

there is no reason that can be given that would indicate a ladder system would be better or more fitting than one from ranking on maps. what are you going to do with a ladder system, get people to challenge others to a 1v1 on a specific map under certain conditions? if the two people are both capable of playing what the challenge is, regardless of the actual skill disparity between the two, the outcome may as well be decided by luck. if you want a ranking to be based on ELO and skill for that matter, why would you be so content with adding luck into the equation? it strays from what you're trying to achieve. if you want this ladder ranking to be the main metric used to measure one's skill, what place do specific map rankings have anymore? people will just go queue into a 1v1 and to be blunt, even the top players now will play like absolute shit and be rewarded for it. god forbid they, you know, try to set an impressive score on a map instead of taking part in a ranking system that has no place in osu. even as a side ranking i couldn't bring myself to take a ladder ranking seriously.
Ah, so pretty much the fact that it's luck-based. I don't think a ladder will ever replace the pp system, but would definitely be something on the side. One way to make it more fair would be to choose a random map (out of a large pool so people don't memorise maps as much) and have it be a best out of 10 or something, so it isn't decided from few games.

Don't you think the OWC has a similar issue?
Yano

Soarezi wrote:

Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
Only my Opinion, but I think, that Osu!tp is only the small form from the PPv1 System ... in PPv1 you gained Points for Ranks under 1000 and it was Easy to Farm with Easy-Hards

In Osu!tp you gain tp for be in the Top 50 in a Map ...

All Skilled Players will play normal, but all not so good Players (The Players who can't reach Top 50 in a Insane (Like me)) will farm Easy's and Normal's, maybe Hards

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System

^Yeah, my English is bad
---------------------------------------
Haha PP are Hidden ... i laughed so hard, when I saw this
JappyBabes

Rewben2 wrote:

Ah, so pretty much the fact that it's luck-based. I don't think a ladder will ever replace the pp system, but would definitely be something on the side. One way to make it more fair would be to choose a random map (out of a large pool so people don't memorise maps as much) and have it be a best out of 10 or something, so it isn't decided from few games.

Don't you think the OWC has a similar issue?
that's also problematic as each player has their own merits so choosing a map randomly doesn't help in an overall ranking which is decided by your elo, i see that as more luck. i don't think it's a system where the randomness becomes acceptable/negligible after a certain amount of results either. and yeah owc has that along with a whole range of other issues.
deletemyaccount
A ladder system sounds fun but it just wouldn't work with such a dynamic game like osu.
Soarezi

Ultrayano wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

Peppy, why don't you do work with tom and make TP the main ranking system? I'm pretty sure TP would be even better if you'd participate in it.
Only my Opinion, but I think, that Osu!tp is only the small form from the PPv1 System ... in PPv1 you gained Points for Ranks under 1000 and it was Easy to Farm with Easy-Hards

In Osu!tp you gain tp for be in the Top 50 in a Map ...

All Skilled Players will play normal, but all not so good Players (The Players who can't reach Top 50 in a Insane (Like me)) will farm Easy's and Normal's, maybe Hards

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System

^Yeah, my English is bad
---------------------------------------
Haha PP are Hidden ... i laughed so hard, when I saw this
You don't get TP at all from easy/hards so it's not farmable.
Yano

Soarezi wrote:

You don't get TP at all from easy/hards so it's not farmable.
deletemyaccount

peppy wrote:

Let's just leave it at this: Introducing change is *hard*. Even if you are making completely forward and beneficial progress, you are still going to piss a group off. people will still get pissed off when I restore the ranking later this week (roughly half of you, who had your rank decreased). I don't really have anything for you in this situation except to persevere as Rewben2 says. Learn and adapt; it's a very good skill to have.

Also be goddamn excited. I have some interesting stuff planned and you should lighten up, calm down, and osu! on.
Touhosu?

i believe
pielak213

Ultrayano wrote:

Easy/normal top 50s are only effective for getting your first few tp points. After you get to around the 1500~ tp points at least, getting a top 50 score is pretty easy and it's more about how hard it is to actually get the score.

I don't think tp is a good system because it only works for anyone higher than rank 1000 and isn't optimized for lower ranks.
Almost

Ultrayano wrote:

Soarezi wrote:

PPv1 was Easy to farm and Osu!tp would it be also if it would be the primary System
It would be easier to get tp for low ranked players but it wouldn't be much easier for high ranked players since most scores are in the top 50 and even if you got a sub rank 50 score, other people would also get sub rank 50 scores which would equalize all the ranks.
Ephemeral
There are pros and cons to many different sorts of ranking systems, and developing a solid one is an extremely difficult affair. TP seems promising, certainly, but it has serious issues with lower-level players, as stated above.

I've seen the backend of ppv2 being worked on and I personally felt it was a lot more accurate than ppv1, which was flawed in a number of ways (specifically regarding mod weighting). I've looked at the code for both, and ppv2 is much better, much more fluid, and makes a lot more sense. Trust me, when it's finished and comes into general use, I can see a lot of people enjoying it a lot more over than simply farming Hard difficulties for pp, even if a lot of people do take a fairly huge initial ranking hit from the reconfiguration.

ppv2 is just overall a lot better than I think a lot of people can readily gauge at this point, given that the public was only given a tiny, tiny glimpse into a half-finished system that was kind of ass-backwards at the time. Have some faith!
Rewben2

Ephemeral wrote:

There are pros and cons to many different sorts of ranking systems, and developing a solid one is an extremely difficult affair. TP seems promising, certainly, but it has serious issues with lower-level players, as stated above.

I've seen the backend of ppv2 being worked on and I personally felt it was a lot more accurate than ppv1, which was flawed in a number of ways (specifically regarding mod weighting). I've looked at the code for both, and ppv2 is much better, much more fluid, and makes a lot more sense. Trust me, when it's finished and comes into general use, I can see a lot of people enjoying it a lot more over than simply farming Hard difficulties for pp, even if a lot of people do take a fairly huge initial ranking hit from the reconfiguration.

ppv2 is just overall a lot better than I think a lot of people can readily gauge at this point, given that the public was only given a tiny, tiny glimpse into a half-finished system that was kind of ass-backwards at the time. Have some faith!
Sorry but you have to play this game to make a system that's good

/s
Tom94

Ephemeral wrote:

There are pros and cons to many different sorts of ranking systems, and developing a solid one is an extremely difficult affair. TP seems promising, certainly, but it has serious issues with lower-level players, as stated above.
I have to say, that those issues rise pretty much completely from only having top50 scores to work with. Lower level players don't get any tp for 99.9% of their scores, sadly. :(

EDIT: And on a side note most inaccuracies could be fixed if per-hitobject data was available (which peppy stated he plans on doing in the api github, looking forward! :) ).
pielak213

Rewben2 wrote:

Sorry but you have to play this game to make a system that's good

/s

Ephemeral wrote:

Have some faith!
What Ephemeral said is really reassuring to me that ppv2 will be good.
RaneFire

Pancake wrote:

I have to say, that those issues rise pretty much completely from only having top50 scores to work with. Lower level players don't get any tp for 99.9% of their scores, sadly. :(
And due to the obvious top50 problem, lower level players can also rank higher than mediocre players just by playing all the new maps as they come out to get their scores on tp. The degree to which this is done varies between players and it's what makes anyone other than high-ranked players inaccurate.
Zeraph
the "obvious top50 problem" could be easily solved and make TP way more viable than pp or ranked score ever were. too bad. ^^
Totoki

Zeraph wrote:

the "obvious top50 problem" could be easily solved and make TP way more viable than pp or ranked score ever were. too bad. ^^
Ephemeral
I don't really agree with the premise that properly creating a ranking for your own game requires you to play it at a quasi-professional level. The rulesets are clear and ranking assessments can be made objectively on raw data alone without introducing arbitrary multipliers and other shonky things that are based purely on "experience" over any tangible representation in the game's mechanics.

Playing the game to that degree certainly infers a degree of knowledge about said mechanics, but it's not everything. I think you should rest assured that peppy does have your best interests at heart in this new ranking system that's on the way and is not doing it purely to ruin your day, but rather to improve the nature of competitive play overall - even if it seems a bit unfair or shaky during its initial implementation.
Yano
Let's wait on PPv2 and see how it is :D

It's the same with the Designs of YT ...

At the begin all said "What a shit Design" then it change again and then "No, we want the old back" xD
Luna

Ultrayano wrote:

Let's wait on PPv2 and see how it is :D

It's the same with the Designs of YT ...

At the begin all said "What a shit Design" then it change again and then "No, we want the old back" xD
Bad example, I still want the old 2007 design back, everything past that was shit haha

But yeah, just give ppv2 a chance.
Tom94

Ephemeral wrote:

I don't really agree with the premise that properly creating a ranking for your own game requires you to play it at a quasi-professional level. The rulesets are clear and ranking assessments can be made objectively on raw data alone without introducing arbitrary multipliers and other shonky things that are based purely on "experience" over any tangible representation in the game's mechanics.
The problem is, that what most players consider "skill" is not represented very well in an objective way within the game's mechanics. People often talk about aim, speed, jumps and so on, yet the only objective data available are the amount of 300s, 100s, 50s and misses... and score. Accuracy can be inferred.

Reverse engineering the performance out of said amounts of 300s, 100s, 50s and misses is impossible to do without error, due to the fact, that per-hitobject information is lost and you can therefore not know whether for instance most 300s come from a hard part of a map or from an easy part.
That's where "arbitrary multipliers and other shonky things that are based purely on "experience"" come into play for somehow approximating what many people call skill.

To make things worse, often aim and speed are considered different skills, making it even harder to properly extract them from a score, if one wishes to do so.

I personally wish tp would work without arbitrary multipliers and such - even without seperating skills into "aim" or "speed" or whatever -, but so far I have failed to build such an algorithm, that would even remotely satisfy most people.


Regarding ppv2, from what I have read on how it works it indeed sounds very promising to me. I'm not trying to badmouth it or anything.
Yano

Luna wrote:

Ultrayano wrote:

Let's wait on PPv2 and see how it is :D

It's the same with the Designs of YT ...

At the begin all said "What a shit Design" then it change again and then "No, we want the old back" xD
Bad example, I still want the old 2007 design back, everything past that was shit haha

But yeah, just give ppv2 a chance.
True but a lot of ppl who said Google+ is shit, like it now ... it's the same ... all have different opinions

But yeah let's give a chance
pooptartsonas

Ephemeral wrote:

I don't really agree with the premise that properly creating a ranking for your own game requires you to play it at a quasi-professional level. The rulesets are clear and ranking assessments can be made objectively on raw data alone without introducing arbitrary multipliers and other shonky things that are based purely on "experience" over any tangible representation in the game's mechanics.

Playing the game to that degree certainly infers a degree of knowledge about said mechanics, but it's not everything. I think you should rest assured that peppy does have your best interests at heart in this new ranking system that's on the way and is not doing it purely to ruin your day, but rather to improve the nature of competitive play overall - even if it seems a bit unfair or shaky during its initial implementation.
I still think input from those higher ranked players is valuable. As a player who plays mostly with Hard Rock, I can tell you that the increase in difficulty with respect to accuracy is beyond what I could have imagined when I was a new player. Yes, you can look at data, but it's really hard to understand some of the finer parts of the game without some experience. This showed up to some extent in the iterations of ppv2 that have been publicized so far: the HD+HR players consistently took a big hit in rank. During the iteration where it showed the top ranks, none of my HD+HR scores were in there despite almost all of my best scores using that particular mod combination.

With that said, the fact that the current calculations are only a glimpse of what is to come does give me a lot more confidence in the new system. If the mod multipliers and map difficulty issues can get sorted out, hopefully it truly can be an improvement on pp. I'll withhold any further criticism until the rankings are made final.
blahpy
No one cares of pp anyway so no need for a ruckus. Most people only care of (and I agree that they only should care of) tp as it is.

peppy wrote:

If they play for competition, they should have quite over the last few months. There was no way to make pp on new maps, after all.
This post is interesting to me, because I gained many pp from new maps that were ranked within these last months...
Almost

blahpy wrote:

No one cares of pp anyway so no need for a ruckus. Most people only care of (and I agree that they only should care of) tp as it is.

peppy wrote:

If they play for competition, they should have quite over the last few months. There was no way to make pp on new maps, after all.
This post is interesting to me, because I gained many pp from new maps that were ranked within these last months...
I know someone who lost all motivation to play because pp was removed because he was close to top 50. Not me.
Icyteru
Osu!tp is good, but if it is truly accurate, we should see jappy in top 20 of 2013. I hopped over to the voting thread, and couldnt see any votes for him.
AmaiHachimitsu
I again suggest allowing TP rank to count more than just top 50 (how about top 300?500? w/e) via once-a-week (2 weeks?) updates as not to kill the database, server or w/e related to the scores. Then those who prefer TP rank will just go with it and not complain about PP so much, we can see the points of view differ totally (I also don't agree with ppy). I think this is a win-win situation unless you find TP rank a threat to outrun PP in terms of popularity.

Osu!tp is good, but if it is truly accurate, we should see jappy in top 20 of 2013. I hopped over to the voting thread, and couldnt see any votes for him.
Lemme quote the key phrase lewa said in the first post of the voting thread. (It's now deleted)

The community voice
COMMUNITY
People there were voting for SiLviA even though his 2013 playcount is under 100. I'd say the voting is more inaccurate than the TP lol


Also I voted for Jappy :<
JappyBabes

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

People there were voting for SiLviA even though his 2013 playcount is under 100. I'd say the voting is more inaccurate than the TP lol


Also I voted for Jappy :<
heil mouse
silmarilen

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

People there were voting for SiLviA even though his 2013 playcount is under 100. I'd say the voting is more inaccurate than the TP lol


Also I voted for Jappy :<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd
learn it, love it

i also voted for jappy
Lapis-
To be honest i'd be happy if PPV2 took some influence from osu!tp's way of calucating difficulty and giving points based on that. The whole problem with PPV1 is that difficulty wasn't relevant. A ranking system that gives out points based on map popularity and other factors that aren't relevant to the actual difficulty of the beatmap is not how you calculate the rank of a player. It was very inaccurate for calculating the actual skill of a player.
Rewben2

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

I again suggest allowing TP rank to count more than just top 50 (how about top 300?500? w/e)
Ehh, one of the reasons I think it's good being top 50 is because it takes skill to get top 50 in most songs (easy/norms are pretty easy but they are also toned down in terms of how much tp they give). That being said, turning it up to 300-500 would make it quite easy for a lot of people to get osutp for songs, and it would become farmable in a way. Instead of working hard to get ranks that take time to get, you can just play tons of different songs a few times, get rank 400~ and earn a lot of tp, hence getting a high rank. This would put you ahead of the people who work hard for getting lower ranks, because getting a lot of easier ranks is easier (and less time consuming for some) than getting a single good score.

It would make it more appealing and easier to climb for casuals/worse players (who can't get top 50 in songs) though.


Edit: the hammer of stupidity has struck
silmarilen

Rewben2 wrote:

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

I again suggest allowing TP rank to count more than just top 50 (how about top 300?500? w/e)
Ehh, one of the reasons I think it's good being top 50 is because it takes skill to get top 50 in most songs (easy/norms are pretty easy but they are also toned down in terms of how much tp they give). That being said, turning it up to 300-500 would make it quite easy for a lot of people to get osutp for songs, and it would become farmable in a way. Instead of working hard to get ranks that take time to get, you can just play tons of different songs a few times, get rank 400~ and earn a lot of tp, hence getting a high rank. This would put you ahead of the people who work hard for getting lower ranks, because getting a lot of easier ranks is easier (and less time consuming for some) than getting a single good score.

It would make it more appealing and easier to climb for casuals/worse players (who can't get top 50 in songs) though.
please learn how a system works before assuming things. oh wait, this whole topic's existance is based on assuming things before knowing how a system works, oh well
tp scores are weighted, by the time you get to score #20 its worth like 1tp, so farming hundreds of maps all worth 20 tp still wont get you past someone who only has 5 scores worth 100 each
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

I again suggest allowing TP rank to count more than just top 50 (how about top 300?500? w/e)
Ehh, one of the reasons I think it's good being top 50 is because it takes skill to get top 50 in most songs (easy/norms are pretty easy but they are also toned down in terms of how much tp they give). That being said, turning it up to 300-500 would make it quite easy for a lot of people to get osutp for songs, and it would become farmable in a way. Instead of working hard to get ranks that take time to get, you can just play tons of different songs a few times, get rank 400~ and earn a lot of tp, hence getting a high rank. This would put you ahead of the people who work hard for getting lower ranks, because getting a lot of easier ranks is easier (and less time consuming for some) than getting a single good score.

It would make it more appealing and easier to climb for casuals/worse players (who can't get top 50 in songs) though.
Lolwut? One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players.
Zeraph
silmarilen bringing down the hammer on stupidity.
Rewben2

silmarilen wrote:

please learn how a system works before assuming things. oh wait, this whole topic's existance is based on assuming things before knowing how a system works, oh well
tp scores are weighted, by the time you get to score #20 its worth like 1tp, so farming hundreds of maps all worth 20 tp still wont get you past someone who only has 5 scores worth 100 each
My bad, I'm just working with what I know.

So for clarification, the amount of tp you get from a map goes down the more maps you have? Sorry, the way you explained it doesn't make sense to me.
Rewben2

Zeraph wrote:

silmarilen bringing down the hammer on stupidity.
As he rightfully should.

Almost wrote:

Lolwut? One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players.
I said that?
Zeraph

Rewben2 wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

please learn how a system works before assuming things. oh wait, this whole topic's existance is based on assuming things before knowing how a system works, oh well
tp scores are weighted, by the time you get to score #20 its worth like 1tp, so farming hundreds of maps all worth 20 tp still wont get you past someone who only has 5 scores worth 100 each
My bad, I'm just working with what I know.

So for clarification, the amount of tp you get from a map goes down the more maps you have? Sorry, the way you explained it doesn't make sense to me.
http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
silmarilen

Rewben2 wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

please learn how a system works before assuming things. oh wait, this whole topic's existance is based on assuming things before knowing how a system works, oh well
tp scores are weighted, by the time you get to score #20 its worth like 1tp, so farming hundreds of maps all worth 20 tp still wont get you past someone who only has 5 scores worth 100 each
My bad, I'm just working with what I know.

So for clarification, the amount of tp you get from a map goes down the more maps you have? Sorry, the way you explained it doesn't make sense to me.
lets say you have some scores
first giving 90 aim, 2nd 80 aim
and so on

what happens now is that the tp each of the maps gives is (actual tp)*0.85^(rank-1) (i think, could also just be rank)
so that means the 2nd score only gives 80*0.85^1m or 80*0.85 tp to each stat, by the time you get to rank 20 (lets assume its worth 30 in each stat) it would be 30*0.85^19, which is 1.36, so its pretty much worthless already.

if your 200th rank had 20tp, it would be 20*0.85^199 which is less than 1 billionth.
Rewben2
:P

Zeraph wrote:

http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info http://osutp.net/info
It says it adds the aim/speed/accuracy for a score. Ok yeah, I follow.


The last step after computing score rating is to collect all of the aim, speed and accuracy scores from every player. The scores are then sorted decreasingly by their value and the best ones form each player's tp rating in aim, speed or accuracy respectively. To make it clear: aim, speed and accuracy ratings are calculated separately.
Each player's total tp rating is simply the sum of his/her aim, speed and accuracy rating.
It gets the scores from all players and sorts them decreasingly, so whoever does better has a higher score. So that means that that if people were ranked #300 or so in osutp, they would have to be getting little points?

Yeah, the link doesn't explain how its weighted, which is what I don't know.
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

Almost wrote:

Lolwut? One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players.
I said that?
No you didn't?
Rewben2

silmarilen wrote:

lets say you have some scores
rating in aim speed and acc
90 90 90
80 80 80
and so on

what happens now is that the tp each of the maps gives is (actual tp)*0.85^(rank-1) (i think, could also just be rank)
so that means the 2nd score only gives 80*0.85^1m or 80*0.85 tp to each stat, by the time you get to rank 20 (lets assume its worth 30 in each stat) it would be 30*0.85^19, which is 1.36, so its pretty much worthless already.

if your 200th rank had 20tp, it would be 20*0.85^199 which is less than 1 billionth.
Thankyou, a response that actually explains why you would be getting so little points. The link http://osutp.net/info doesn't explain that anywhere, all it says is "we add them together to get a score and whoever did better gets more", which really doesn't explain the weighted thing at all.
Rewben2

Almost wrote:

No you didn't?

Rewben2 wrote:

It would make it more appealing and easier to climb for casuals/worse players (who can't get top 50 in songs) though.

Rewben2 wrote:

it takes skill to get top 50 in most songs
I'm implying that it's harder for low ranked players...
Defacer
As much as I'm sure ppv2 system will be one very bad system when released(hope I am wrong), you guys should hold your complaints for when it's actually released.I don't know how to say it, there is a really high chance it will suck but at least give it a try and then complain about it, please.Also don't make up facts like "every next release is bad and it just doesn't feel like it's worth it", I don't remember peppy saying anything about different releases, there is just going to be one release, hopefully by the end of the week.
Soulg
at least the topic is on tp and not children whining that their numbers are getting replaced with different numbers
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

Almost wrote:

No you didn't?

Rewben2 wrote:

It would make it more appealing and easier to climb for casuals/worse players (who can't get top 50 in songs) though.

Rewben2 wrote:

it takes skill to get top 50 in most songs
I'm implying that it's harder for low ranked players...

Almost wrote:

One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players.
Read what I wrote...
Rewben2

Almost wrote:

Read what I wrote...
Uh, so you quoted me to point out something I already implied?

The whole "lolwut" made me think you were disagreeing with what I said... *shrugs*
Rewben2

Soulg wrote:

at least the topic is on tp and not children whining that their numbers are getting replaced with different numbers
Derailing threads in a good way for days
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

Almost wrote:

Read what I wrote...
Uh, so you quoted me to point out something I already implied?

The whole "lolwut" made me think you were disagreeing with what I said... *shrugs*

I was saying it's a problem with tp while you were saying it's good that only top 50 scores count. Are you autistic or something?
Rewben2

Almost wrote:

I was saying it's a problem with tp while you were saying it's good that only top 50 scores count. Are you autistic or something?
I mentioned this as a benefit in my initial post...

When you quoted me and said "lolwut", I assumed you were disagreeing with what I was saying and your reason being "One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players." I had already mentioned this in my post so I was confused.

So yeah, you did quote me to repeat something I said, and now you're calling me autistic. Alright.

You also said "No you didn't?" to something that I did in fact say (or at least implied enough that any literate 10 year old could understand".
AmaiHachimitsu
Ok enough, guys above.




Now, will Peppy give answer to my suggestion?
Almost

Rewben2 wrote:

Almost wrote:

I was saying it's a problem with tp while you were saying it's good that only top 50 scores count. Are you autistic or something?
I mentioned this as a benefit in my initial post...

When you quoted me and said "lolwut", I assumed you were disagreeing with what I was saying and your reason being "One of the problems with tp is that it's difficult for low ranked players." I had already mentioned this in my post so I was confused.

So yeah, you did quote me to repeat something I said, and now you're calling me autistic. Alright.
Yes, I'm disagreeing with the top 50 being a benefit for tp because low ranked players have problems with it. Having any ranking system omitting scores is a flawed one. Yes, I did see you mention it being more appealing for low ranked players but that was more of a side note.
Rewben2

Almost wrote:

Yes, I'm disagreeing with the top 50 being a benefit for tp because low ranked players have problems with it. Having any ranking system omitting scores is a flawed one. Yes, I did see you mention it being more appealing for low ranked players but that was more of a side note.
It was hardly a side note, I made a new paragraph for it at the end... Anyways, lets drop this, it was some confusion, but there's no need to call people autistic.
Rewben2

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

Ok enough, guys above.




Now, will Peppy give answer to my suggestion?
He doesn't run tp, but you could tweet @ him for an answer if you want. If the rankings are weighted so people who ranked like #200 really get such a low amount of tp and it can't be farmed like I thought it could, I have nothing against raising the required rank.
Full Tablet

Rewben2 wrote:

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

Ok enough, guys above.




Now, will Peppy give answer to my suggestion?
He doesn't run tp, but you could tweet @ him for an answer if you want. If the rankings are weighted so people who ranked like #200 really get such a low amount of tp and it can't be farmed like I thought it could, I have nothing against raising the required rank.
It isn't based on the global score rank, it is based on the rank in the list of your scores.
For example:
A player has as best Speed Rank 100tp, and his second best is 80tp. Then both of those songs give 100+80*0.85 speed tp to the total of the player.
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