Taiwan too strong D:
It wasn't Korea. Blame my sub Google net.bubby963 wrote:
You'd think Korea would be able to beat us without having to DDOS one of our best players (unless it was some random scrub who thought they were being funny) considering that Korea is arguably the best team in the world and UK is only high-seeded.
GG anyway.
Can we stop with the DDoS bullshit? It seems like a poor excuse for having played horribly bad. Also same for Germany.bubby963 wrote:
You'd think Korea would be able to beat us without having to DDOS one of our best players (unless it was some random scrub who thought they were being funny) considering that Korea is arguably the best team in the world and UK is only high-seeded.
GG anyway.
lol xD Andrea no moe :p-Kamui- wrote:
I blame Andrea for not making quit all korean players. Such bad man this Andrea.
the 1st place from each group can get into winner bracket, meanwhile the 2nd place will start at the lower bracket. this would be really fun, and also the timespan will be exactly the same as single elimination systemAmaiHachimitsu wrote:
I BEG YOU, organizers, make a loser bracket next year. Japan is totally top 3.......
Well it wasn't an excuse for playing bad this time. But still, throwing DDOS accusations around for disconnects? Please, can we not stoop to this level of petty bullshit, thanks.Blue Dragon wrote:
Can we stop with the DDoS bullshit? It seems like a poor excuse for having played horribly bad. Also same for Germany.bubby963 wrote:
You'd think Korea would be able to beat us without having to DDOS one of our best players (unless it was some random scrub who thought they were being funny) considering that Korea is arguably the best team in the world and UK is only high-seeded.
GG anyway.
The purpose of the HD bracket is to test your HD reading abilities, same as any other mod.fartownik wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41974 you know why this map has so few HDHR FCs? Surely not because it's hard, it's only because it's fucking boring to learn the entire map from the scratch, and you make us do the most boring thing. I don't know if that was the purpose of the HD bracket in the first place.
Actually, HD does require some memorization if there are a lot of stack notes.darkmiz wrote:
The purpose of the HD bracket is to test your HD reading abilities, same as any other mod.fartownik wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41974 you know why this map has so few HDHR FCs? Surely not because it's hard, it's only because it's fucking boring to learn the entire map from the scratch, and you make us do the most boring thing. I don't know if that was the purpose of the HD bracket in the first place.
Hidden does not require any memorization, if you can't read AR8 hidden then you shouldn't be in the finals.
The purpose of the HD bracket is to test your HD reading abilities, same as any other mod.0 out of thousands have FC'd this map first try with Hidden.
Hidden does not require any memorization, if you can't read AR8 hidden then you shouldn't be in the finals.
When you posted comments, Loctav asked what was wrong in reference to them and got no response, you also have a very odd view on what it is an adequate difficulty for a map pool, things like Magic Girl or Ha-tenya on DT are simply unacceptable in the environment, Bamboo Dance shouldn't have been in the semis, a lot of people were honestly confused as to why something so difficult even for the top players to FC while playing solo was in the 2nd last map pool. A lot of the maps picked were in hopes to produce a map pool which had variety in what skills were required, DT has an AR9, something to test speed, single-tap/aim, and a map which is quite tricky to perform well on. This is the same mindset as was used to pick reunion, every single time I've watched the OWC stream, a team will have a few of their players break their combo and the other team will keep FCing and you're left sitting there for a minute of two already knowing the result (likely the participants too if there's a break to see team scores). Sure, reunion could have been a pick for group stages where not all teams would be able to consistently FC it, making it another one of these matches where you just wait for the song to end, but when you place it into a final map pool where all 8 players should be able to FC it without an issue as it's not demanding on aim or speed, you'd be unable to tell who should win half way through the map and wait for the next choice. Having every HR map selected, by aim, for the pools throughout every round does not seem like the best thing to do considering accuracy is one of the largest components of HR. And yeah picking HD is kind of iffy, because it doesn't actually modify the map, so you have to pick based on reading/memorization, no reason to negate one of the two reasons that HD increases the difficulty of a map without modifying it. End on a slightly more personal note, you have to keep in mind that your view on the difficulty of a map is extremely subjective, the only maps that are 'EXTREMELY easy' to FC are reunion and Caramel Heaven, I'd say. Caramel Heaven is probably the easiest pick in the entire pool, making it an acc war, yet it's in the free mod bracket and has a max combo of 1400-1500x, there's actually an incentive there to use mods as the maps don't become impossibly hard for the OWC environment and the bonus points from a mod at that combo is quite significant, unlike the group stage map pool where the risk far outweighed the reward for rather low combo maps. You've also barely been active throughout the entirety of this year Wishy, and you were AFK for map selection since group stages. Perhaps you should change that.Wishy wrote:
Heaven's Race is a terrible pick, AR 8 + HD on a map that requires A LOT of memorization.
Ningen Shikkaku is also boring to play, very long map with just a few "hard" parts.
I would say more but since I should have helped and didn't (sorry I couldn't) even then I posted comments about some maps and they kind of got ignored. The diff spread is also terrible, some maps are EXTREMELY easy while some others are actually hard to FC.
Hope I can be available around this time next year lol.
You think that Magic Girl and Ha-tenya would be more than appropriate for a finals map pool, then in the next paragraph say you wouldn't even be able to FC a map which has quite trivial aim requirements at a BPM<200. What do you find so appealing about a results screen which in all likelihood will end up having 8 As with less than half of an FC? In the OWC 1 play count environment, it seems like the winner of each map would just be determined by RNG. I don't see a good reason to put maps in, which as I said in the previous post the players with the best aim in the game could require hours to FC it or just give up in the end, in such a volatile situation. I'm not responsible for Mephisto in free mod, Nuclear Fusion would be too much of a risk also, spacing with HR is just absolutely mental and IIRC it becomes quite tricky with HD too. I already talked about Heaven's Race in the previous post, unless you are talking in specific about how long the map is, in which case I have to ask why that would be relevant.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
I think both Magic Girl and Ha-Tenya would be good picks. You guys chose maps that need only one specific skill and I don't support such idea. There should be some all-in-ones in every bracket. DT for me is: Colors - jump and that's all, Parousia and Fermion - clicking speed only (Fermion has ridiculously high HP drain, just wait for those fails), Splendid Encount - Reading AR 10,3 only. Only Freemods look more or less balanced.
Also I dislike what you said about Reunion. You seem to have forgotten that we're playing under pressure. Easy-to-fc maps make it even worse because we ARE TO FC. I can totally foresee that there WILL be breaks if any of the teams chooses Reunion. And then all your accuracy talk will become obsolete. I think Metro pointed out earlier that solo=/=mp accuracy and I totally agree with that. This decision is more for spectators rather than for players.
I'd like to read the reasoning behind Mephisto as Freemod. I'd switch it with nuclear fusion, this is subjective tho.
The same with this 5-minutes-long Hidden pick.
JappyBabes wrote:
And yeah picking HD is kind of iffy, because it doesn't actually modify the map, so you have to pick based on reading/memorization, no reason to negate one of the two reasons that HD increases the difficulty of a map without modifying it.
Ostrichstria is not happy with this. You just lost our ostrich blessing.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
I'd like to read the reasoning behind Mephisto as Freemod. I'd switch it with nuclear fusion, this is subjective tho.
The problem I see with Heaven's Race is that it's a long and slow map. It wouldn't be very interesting to watch.JappyBabes wrote:
I already talked about Heaven's Race in the previous post, unless you are talking in specific about how long the map is, in which case I have to ask why that would be relevant.
One with numbers on the notes, like 95% of players?AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
we sometimes just predict that "the hidden thing under the slider end is a quad, not triple". I don't know what kind of skin you're using as to state that Hidden doesn't require memorization.
Cool idea. I mean, consistiency is a big thing in a game like osu, so you shouldn't ditch it completely, but one bracket would be just fine.Loctav wrote:
Maybe we can create an acc-win bracket
Okayokayokay guys, remember this: All pros play by reading the numbers on circles, because that's exactly how the game works \:D/Kuruku-san wrote:
One with numbers on the notes, like 95% of players?AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
we sometimes just predict that "the hidden thing under the slider end is a quad, not triple". I don't know what kind of skin you're using as to state that Hidden doesn't require memorization.
Until they meet up in the finals and we have the same issue again? Totally makes sense not.Melt3dCheeze wrote:
To avoid this issue, I say restrict each bracket so that there aren't time zone difference 10 hours+ difference.
You don't play on EZ very much, do you? Ask SapphireGhost and MillhioreF how excellently number-reading works.Zarerion wrote:
Okayokayokay guys, remember this: All pros play by reading the numbers on circles, because that's exactly how the game works \:D/
You think that Magic Girl and Ha-tenya would be more than appropriate for a finals map pool, then in the next paragraph say you wouldn't even be able to FC a map which has quite trivial aim requirements at a BPM<200. What do you find so appealing about a results screen which in all likelihood will end up having 8 As with less than half of an FC?There is a difference when inside your head you think "I must do the best combo possible" and "If I miss once, we'll probably lose".
One with numbers on the notes, like 95% of players?Sorry but I can assume you've never played a map with more complex rhythm patterns which are hidden totally while HD is put on. Play this Tsukasa map and send me your FC screen.
Give me a left hand that isn't shit and I'll do it.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Sorry but I can assume you've never played a map with more complex rhythm patterns which are hidden totally while HD is put on. Play this Tsukasa map and send me your FC screen.
Go relax mode. Do it.Kuruku-san wrote:
Give me a left hand that isn't shit and I'll do it.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Sorry but I can assume you've never played a map with more complex rhythm patterns which are hidden totally while HD is put on. Play this Tsukasa map and send me your FC screen.
Yep...no one really ends up wanting to pick this kind of map because it ideally SHOULD be an accuracy contest, but no one wants to be that one guy who does something dumb and singlehandedly loses the pick for his team. Unfortunately I don't think accuracy maps are really cut out for a 4v4 tournament, and I say this as a player who specializes in accuracy.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
There is a difference when inside your head you think "I must do the best combo possible" and "If I miss once, we'll probably lose".
*I* didn't apply the accuracy thing throughout the entire OWC because I haven't been here the entire time. IIRC, most of it has been Darksonic/Wishy/Chewin and maybe some others to help here and there, and I consider it a mistake that accuracy was never truly tested throughout the map pools. If you're going to stick with the mindset of every map selected for the finals must be difficult to aim or have a few burst streams at high BPM, then I cannot help you. I'm not going to disregard accuracy in it's entirety as one of two components that make HR difficult (the other being smaller CS). Some selections from past pools overstepped their bounds in terms of difficulty, and just because you want the difficulty to grow exponentially, I'm not going to agree with having to make me overstep my bounds due to someone else's poor choice. In the general scope of OWCs though, this pool is overall more difficult than the final map pool of last year. Also, going through a map like Magic Girl+DT isn't as hard as it was for the players involved as it was, say, last year. Passing it does not make you a champion.Salvage wrote:
Reunion is just not a good pick for finals, period .. you didn't apply the Accuracy thing in the ENTIRE owc, why apply it on finals? Hell, past owc had accuracy maps (which i liked btw) on groups/ round of 16, and the finals had harder maps than reunion, it's just too easy, i would've expected maps as hard as Ha Tenya and Magic Girl in finals, and regarding on the DT bracket and something similar in HR, same thing happened last round with Cendrillon, insanely easy maps.
Accuracy should be something applicable on groupstage and maybe round of 16 with maps like owc2, but after that you need to step it up with difficulty, every map is easier than it should've been for FINALS, you have to realize that the tournament started with the idea of having maps harder than the last owc, it doesn't matter that the original people that chose maps were unable to keep doing it, you guys had to stick to the difficulty going up, having really challenging maps on final is what people like to see and what players have to go thorugh to be legit champions, it's just like that, final has to be a big deal.
AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
You think that Magic Girl and Ha-tenya would be more than appropriate for a finals map pool, then in the next paragraph say you wouldn't even be able to FC a map which has quite trivial aim requirements at a BPM<200. What do you find so appealing about a results screen which in all likelihood will end up having 8 As with less than half of an FC?There is a difference when inside your head you think "I must do the best combo possible" and "If I miss once, we'll probably lose".
Also both Magic Girl and Ha-Tenya have consistent difficulty and allow achieving quite good combos even under pressure. Only those who actually can play the difficulty like that well can FC half of the map. And those people are just "better" in maps like that. If, for example, there happens a player who does 1x break on the Reunion, he is responsible for the whole team's loss despite not being bad at this map. How can this determine who is better at this game?
I'd rather reward the team in which one or two people did extremely well FCing a map and carrying the rest than the team which somehow managed not to miss on an easier map.
Even if we played this tournament with only [Easy] maps, there will be a case when someone breaks, screws the accuracy up. And the team is then deemed as "weaker".
I don't get what's wrong with only As in the result screen. It only shows how high the level of competition is. And those who manage to FC a map are really, really good.
I can only see there being an insanely low chance of FCs if this was an earlier round, but it's not. You're in the final round, and teams that are in that position should be able to deal with a simple map. I can't stress how low the aim and speed requirements are for that map enough. I don't see an 82% FC 1v4 happening either, another hypothetical which I just don't see in the realm of possibility. To an extent I do agree with what you say about HD and Free Mod. There are no rules set to make Free Mod anything but another No Mod pool. I heard there was an idea floating around before OWC started to make half of the players on a team required to use mods if a map from that bracket was picked but it was shot down. HD on the other hand, as I've said before, does not modify the map which forces you to to pick a map which either strains your reading ability (good example would be gowww's Another difficulty on Halcyon) or memorization of stacked notes. The memorization hate train is quite strong among players (FL) and a lot of them also don't have the appropriate reading skill to deal with such situations. As a captain of an unfavourable team going into the OWC, your players should not feel down because they could have lost the match for their team, it's honestly quite amazing you've made it this far. As far as not picking easy maps to prevent this feeling from happening, this doesn't only happen with an accuracy war type of map. The score delta of your team and another team can be close at times on maps where there would be no FCs. If only they hadn't missed in between what could have been a 400x and won the match for their team (even though the map has a combo for 1000x for example). As for map balance, aim was valued highest with the large majority testing this primarily, then speed/stamina with 5-10, then accuracy at the very bottom with only one map. Unranked maps were put into question last week if they'd be suitable or not and iirc it was said that they would continue using ranked/approved maps for this OWC, and that they would be considered next year for the rule-set.jesus1412 wrote:
Accuracy CAN NOT be tested in the OWC, there is such an insanely low chance that every player will FC that it can't be measured as the main metric. It means nothing at all, I could get and 82% FC and have a higher score than everyone else combined on some maps. It can't be measured and it shouldn't be attempted. There's a reason no one picks hd too and no one picks mods for freemod unless they think it will help them (looking at HR on low AR maps), accuracy doesn't matter and neither does the extra score from adding mods. Maps should be hard enough at this point for players to be EXPECTED to break and honestly, in my opinion, they should be from the start of the OWC relative to the lowest teams remaining.
As a captain I avoid maps that are extremely easy to fc because I'm 200% sure someone will break and probably end up feeling like they caused a loss (which is a HORRIBLE feeling). I also avoid HD completely and it seems like most top teams do because HD is very luck based in MP, the maps are so easy that anyone can FC but it's still easily possible for even top players to break. Honestly I think the freemod bracket entirely is a gimmicky area, it's only use is for messing around in the group stages and showing off otherwise it's to make the maps easier to FC for the player (which is not the intention of the bracket). HD maps aren't that bad but they're rarely used because it's such an unpredictable option compared to a map where you have a good estimate of how the other team (and your own) will perform.
I think AR10.3 maps should be picked but probably easier ones like paintings for instance, certainly not until the later stages of the tournament though.
These things should probably be what map pickers are looking for:
Balanced difficulty maps.
Heavy jump maps.
Fast stream maps.
Long stream maps.
Complex pattern maps.
AR8 maps or strange AR9 maps.
Relatively easy AR10.3 map (quarter finals+).
I'd say incorporating at least one of each of those kind of maps should be the aim of the map pickers, give or take a few depending on the round (i.e no insanely fast streams in group stages).
Also it could be worth looking into the use of some high quality unranked maps, there are a few that would be perfect for a tournament setting and provide things that ranked maps simply can't provide (unranked maps are a heavy part of the game at this point to top players and even some of the more unorthodox skills commonly practiced that aren't officially supported by the BAT should be tested).
It is possible to test accuracy if you set the win conditions to accuracy rather than score though. Don't know if this is possible in team matches though.jesus1412 wrote:
Accuracy CAN NOT be tested in the OWC, there is such an insanely low chance that every player will FC that it can't be measured as the main metric.
more selectors, more leaks?buny wrote:
how about more map selectors?
What could possibly go wrong?
Loctav wrote:
How is that related to my statement?
Also "leaks are no issue" made me lol. Because you have no idea xDBlame my english comprehension if I didn't get the meaning well.
well that's kind of how it works, you pick maps that you know, not random maps in hopes that they're fine. and colors took me a year .-.AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
btw. Putting easier maps aside, in every DT pick Jappy has DT FC, even on those which have like 5 FCs in overall #conspiracy
i would like to be but refused o_oFrostmourne wrote:
more selectors, more leaks?buny wrote:
how about more map selectors?
What could possibly go wrong?
but I support for more map selectors for the next owc year.
Jesse, so meanjesus1412 wrote:
Kamui - Good pick I guess but it annoys me for some reason.
where is the kawaii sadface ):-Kamui- wrote:
Jesse, so meanjesus1412 wrote:
Kamui - Good pick I guess but it annoys me for some reason.
Synchrostar wrote:
where is the kawaii sadface ):