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Newbie Mafia 2! [Mafia Win!]

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BagelBob_old
0 posts
Joined December 2008
BagelBob_old

Echo wrote:

edit:
note to everyone: I've probably made just as many posts as strager has. If I can pick holes in strager's arguments and claims, then any lies, inconsistencies or logical fallacies I've made should also be just as evident. I encourage you to through and confirm or deny, for yourself, the authenticity of my train of thought.
Well, if you insist.

Echo wrote:

So now you're admitting cop? General rule: first to mention cop in any way is cop themselves.

I was going to vote you now, but since you're suggesting you're cop now, I'll let you defend yourself first.
I've never heard of this rule. Furthermore, I feel as though you're putting words in his mouth. He never claimed to be the cop, and you were the first person who said he was the doc.


Also, I'd like to point out.

Echo wrote:

First, you claim an important role.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139874#p139874

Echo wrote:

Firstly, strager never claimed doctor.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139897#p139897

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=140180#p140180

Thus, I repeat

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?

However, I don't want to give the wrong idea. I agree with most of the things you've said about strager(one disagreement is that when he gives up, you think that's more scummy while I think it doesn't show anything but fatigue while another is that I'd like to give him more credit than doubt for backing off his claim that he should consider adam town for the day rather than have him continue pushing that adam is still town). But everything else looks right on the money.

I'd also like to add

strager wrote:

Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.
That statement both implies that you were not defending yourself and states that you have a defense.


Oh, and Derekuu-Chan, this is a summery, not a suspicion list. However, I feel that I should apologize. I forgot that sarcasm can't be conveyed over the internets.
When I said before

BagelBob wrote:

I Vote Kuu for lying! This is NO wolf game!
It was in response to

kuu wrote:

I FORGOT AM I INVITED HERE---OH RIGHT IT'S THE WOLF GAME IM NOT IN.
Where I meant to show that kuu was lying about being in the game. Trying to stay low on the radar or just being kuu? I'll never know.

And any parodies I do are for my own amusement. If they should happen to point out a newbie mistake that could be a scum-tell, so be it.
Echo
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3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and Derekku-Chan, this is a summary, not a suspicion list. However, I feel that I should apologize. I forgot that sarcasm can't be conveyed over the internets.
Yeah that's what I meant. I seriously need to stop posting after midnight. My brain just doesn't work right.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
Okay, I'm going through the entire thread and pointing out suspicious actions.

MONSTER POST but there's a lot to go over. It's probably disorganized because this text box is so small. >_<

Not gonna proof read either. x_x

Echo wrote:

ISeriously, forget what I said about not bringing personal issues into the game; vote Kuwarudo. strager can go on day 2.
The last comment about "strager can go on day 2" means Echo suspects either I am not the Doctor or he is a Mafia (or both, but I doubt that).

Of course, as BagelBob points out, his believing that I am the Doctor has swayed:

BagelBob wrote:

Also, I'd like to point out.

Echo wrote:

First, you claim an important role.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139874#p139874

Echo wrote:

Firstly, strager never claimed doctor.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139897#p139897

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=140180#p140180

Thus, I repeat

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
Also here, it is clear Echo doesn't believe I am the Doctor:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

Villagers don't lie about aux roles.
Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.

There is an exception, of course, when it's all planned out, but you can't talk behind the scenes in this game so you can't use someone else as a substitute and act through them to protect yourself.
Another:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

I see, that's something you've learned from experience? I'll keep that in mind for the next games I play, and even this game when the Cop shows up (if there even is a Cop; see my post a few pages back).
So now you're admitting cop? General rule: first to mention cop in any way is cop themselves.

I was going to vote you now, but since you're suggesting you're cop now, I'll let you defend yourself first.
Why would he twist my statement into a role claim for a Cop but not believe my role claim for a Doctor? I know you don't think I'm a Cop and you're trying to confuse us.

So does Echo really believe I am the Doctor? That's for anyone to decide for themselves but I believe his indecisiveness means he doesn't believe I am the Doctor. Thus, the only reasonable option is that Echo is a Mafia.

----------

To support BagelBob's point about Echo's indecisiveness, I'll bring up another quote from Echo:

Echo wrote:

That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion.
Which contradicts:

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
----------

0_o seems to be very forgiving, and I'm not sure how to take this.

0_o wrote:

I don't really find nardi particularly suspicious, it's just that everyone else just seems innocent :P

0_o wrote:

as much as kuwarudo's posts can be annoying/pointless, I'm inclined to believe him in his villager claim, and I don't want to lynch a townie just so I don't have to skip over some useless posts. So (sorry) unvote Kuwarudo

0_o wrote:

I just don't have enough to go on to vote anyone right now, we need people to talk so we can get to know them and base decisions off of their arguments.
0_o seems to stay away from the fray, even though he encourages it. He slips under the radar in most of his posts.

0_o wrote:

ok, as of now the only 2 people i haven't "diagnosed" in my mind as pro-town is adam2046 and nardi.
He doesn't state how he came to this conclusion and how he ruled out anyone as being pro-Town.

----------

Echo wrote:

derekku has posted about absolutely nothing. All the so-called votes he's pointing out as "suspicious" are random votes made at the start of the game.
True, but 0_o has posted about absolutely nothing as well.

Also, if you post about absolutely nothing you're more likely to know about absolutely nothing. On the other hand, if you post about a lot of things, you probably know more than other people do.

So it seems as if Echo's "FOS" (first something suspect???) is Derekku it's completely unbased, because I am pretty sure Echo knows what I just said in the previous paragraph. So either that "FOS" is a random "FOS" or just meant to point figures elsewhere than the Mafia.

Also:

Echo wrote:

Finally, the coup de grâce (in the same post):

strager wrote:

So actually by writing all this I see my claim that adam is on my team [townie] is probably wrong, and Echo is right in questioning my reasoning.
Now he's backing out of the claim!
I can't change my mind? If everything were set in stone this game wouldn't be fun. You may see I seem like a hypocrite because I mentioned Echo's indecisiveness, but this is different. Rather than jumping around some ideas like Echo has to try and put up a convincing argument, I stated that I changed my views because of a valid argument. How is my case wrong?

----------

BagelBob wrote:

I'd also like to add

strager wrote:

Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.
That statement both implies that you were not defending yourself and states that you have a defense.
By the "defense" I meant Echo accusing me of using my role claim as a Doctor to defend myself. I didn't mean defending myself against his arguments.

----------

I noticed something which could be very subtle and thus I am totally over-looking-into:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

Villagers don't lie about aux roles.
Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.
And BagelBob's response:

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and I have to disagree with you on that matter. A fake-claim by a town could work out nicely. I certainly don't think that's what's happening here, but I could see it working.
Echo shows that a certain strategy won't work for the Town, and BagelBob says it does. Echo also probably doesn't believe I am the Doctor (see first part of this post), and thus thinks I am "drawing attention away from the real aux roles." He is thus stating a plan will fail, and tries to fail that plan. More reason to suspect Echo is a Mafia.

BagelBob on the other hand says that the strategy could work. He's supportive of the Town, but I don't think he really believes I am the Doctor. Either way, only those of the Town would truly support the Town, so he's probably of the Town ("Townie" is the correct terminology?).

----------

Echo seems to be super defensive of adam in his latest next-to-latest post. Why? I'm not pointing my finger at him.
Echo
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Echo
I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
As for putting you on cop: I didn't (and still don't) believe you are doctor. Thus, since you so eagerly claimed doctor, when I don't think you are, your reluctance to mention anything to do with the cop after I suggested it makes me think there's something more to that.
anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old

Echo wrote:

I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
I don't believe you there.

Echo wrote:

As for putting you on cop: I didn't (and still don't) believe you are doctor. Thus, since you so eagerly claimed doctor, when I don't think you are, your reluctance to mention anything to do with the cop after I suggested it makes me think there's something more to that.
0_o already has for me:

0_o wrote:

And how exactly does mentioning the cop imply that he's claiming cop??
If you want me to explain why I mentioned the Cop, here's why.

The quote in question:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo write: Villagers don't lie about aux roles. (Nested quote limit, sorry.)

Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.

There is an exception, of course, when it's all planned out, but you can't talk behind the scenes in this game so you can't use someone else as a substitute and act through them to protect yourself.
I see, that's something you've learned from experience? I'll keep that in mind for the next games I play, and even this game when the Cop shows up (if there even is a Cop; see my post a few pages back).
Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.

However, in my previous post I have stated that BagelBob believes claiming Doctor is a good idea, so this may apply to the Cop but I am not sure.

That is, I don't care much about the Cop now but I should/will be later in the game, especially when there is a role claim. (If the alleged Cop is lynched or killed by the Mafia we would know his role. If he weren't, and he wasn't the Cop (because the real Cop would probably come out), he'd be a Mafia. So, if he isn't lynched, I would protect him and if someone was killed by the Mafia it would be known the alleged Cop is a Mafia. If the Mafia did try and kill him he is likely really the Cop.)
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

strager wrote:

0_o seems to be very forgiving, and I'm not sure how to take this.

0_o wrote:

I don't really find nardi particularly suspicious, it's just that everyone else just seems innocent :P
Well (at the time I wrote this at least) there was simply no one who set off any warning bells in my mind.

0_o wrote:

as much as kuwarudo's posts can be annoying/pointless, I'm inclined to believe him in his villager claim, and I don't want to lynch a townie just so I don't have to skip over some useless posts. So (sorry) unvote Kuwarudo
I voted for him because he was being annoying, saying he wanted to quit because he was a townie changed my mind; if he was threatening to quit (which he did) why would he lie?

0_o wrote:

I just don't have enough to go on to vote anyone right now, we need people to talk so we can get to know them and base decisions off of their arguments.
0_o seems to stay away from the fray, even though he encourages it. He slips under the radar in most of his posts.
erm, what? Besides you and Echo I'm pretty sure I've contributed the most to this game out of the players so far. Though granted most of my posts have been on the topic of keeping you around :P

0_o wrote:

ok, as of now the only 2 people i haven't "diagnosed" in my mind as pro-town is adam2046 and nardi.
He doesn't state how he came to this conclusion and how he ruled out anyone as being pro-Town.
"Diagnosed" was in quotations because it was mainly just my instincts/first impressions of the 2 or 3 posts each person (again, besides you and Echo) made so far. It definitely isn't "official", it's just those were the two people who when I read through made me go "mm, I dunno about this guy..."
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
I don't believe you there.
Do you really think it's that hard to keep track of saying whether you claimed doctor or not, unless there was a reason behind mixing claim with not claim?

strager wrote:

Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.
You're drawing conclusions from Suburu's pregame story now? Any one of the four combinations are possible. There is absolutely no way you can tell which combination is being used in the game. Don't even try to go there.

strager wrote:

However, in my previous post I have stated that BagelBob believes claiming Doctor is a good idea, so this may apply to the Cop but I am not sure.
It's never good to role claim on the first day, when there's nothing you can do to prove or disprove the claim. And since you can't talk outside the thread, you can't use it to convince anyone anyway.

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know adam is innocent, then suddenly back out of that claim when I say it's impossible for you to know that. This is what makes me think with almost 100% certainty that you are mafia.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
0_o, I see your points but still don't know what to think ultimately. I mean, you could be playing Mister Nice Guy to try and not get killed (this makes sense because many accuse me of being a Mafia and if that were true I would kill the person attacking me the most and certainly not the one defending me).

On my comment about you just watching the fray: I still stand by that view because you've only fed the discussion ("fire") and not jumped into it yourself. You'd jumping a little more now, which is good (or bad?), because we get more information and view points.

----------

Echo wrote:

Do you really think it's that hard to keep track of saying whether you claimed doctor or not, unless there was a reason behind mixing claim with not claim?
Uh...

What? O_o

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.
You're drawing conclusions from Suburu's pregame story now? Any one of the four combinations are possible. There is absolutely no way you can tell which combination is being used in the game. Don't even try to go there.
I was explaining that my mention of a Cop was NOT a role claim and I was assuming my prediction near the beginning of the game was correct for this reason, and only this reason.

Echo wrote:

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know adam is innocent, then suddenly back out of that claim when I say it's impossible for you to know that. This is what makes me think with almost 100% certainty that you are mafia.
It was not a "sudden" backing out. You mentioned something which "foiled my plans" and I explained that it did "foil my plans." Accepting your argument causes more suspicion?

Also, I do still believe (unfoundedly, like most beliefs ;P)adam is innocent, for what it's worth.

Oh, and let me try.

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know I am guilty, then suddenly back out of defending yourself against the attacks of my post earlier today when you yourself say a lack of defense means you are a Mafia. This (okay, not really this last sentence, because that's just BS) is what makes me know with 100% certainty that you are a Mafia.

My vote still stands against Echo.

(Yeah it was a bit longer and cooler but what can I say? I know this for a fact now.)
Derekku
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Derekku
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Echo
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anonymous_old
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LadySuburu
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Topic Starter
LadySuburu
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adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Hey hey Echo!
I didn't vote for you ^_^
Echo
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Echo
So I'm throwing things at strager.

But don't just sit back, say, and I quote, I "need to stop being so fucking aggresive. strager has never even played before, and you're throwing every fucking thing in the book at him."

THEN THROW THINGS AT ME. BUT BE DAMN SURE YOU BACK IT UP WITH QUOTES FROM THIS THREAD.

LIKE I DID. LIKE STRAGER DID. LIKE 0_o DID. LIKE BAGEL DID. He's enjoying the game. I'm enjoying the game. We're all enjoying the game. If you're not, get out.
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Saying that strager is new is an awful point, if you want go take a quick peek at my first mafia game...no I'll wait.
See?
Saying someone is new to the game isn't a very good excuse if they're capable of being smart.
Derekku
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Derekku
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Derekku
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Derekku

Echo wrote:

So I'm throwing things at strager.

But don't just sit back, say, and I quote, I "need to stop being so fucking aggresive. strager has never even played before, and you're throwing every fucking thing in the book at him."

THEN THROW THINGS AT ME. BUT BE DAMN SURE YOU BACK IT UP WITH QUOTES FROM THIS THREAD.

LIKE I DID. LIKE STRAGER DID. LIKE 0_o DID. LIKE BAGEL DID. He's enjoying the game. I'm enjoying the game. We're all enjoying the game. If you're not, get out.
I made a mistake.

I am enjoying the game.

Again, sorry for saying that to you. I was comparing you to everyone else for the wrong reason.

I'll go back through the thread tomorrow and look at everyone's points again.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old
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Echo
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Echo
Maybe I shouldn't have blown off like I did. I'm sorry.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
I'm a little terrified of Echo now.

Ugh, I'm almost tempted to vote strager just to stop this argument, I'm getting a headache just reading it :|
Derekku
COOL DUDE
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Derekku

Echo wrote:

Maybe I shouldn't have blown off like I did. I'm sorry.
You had a right to, though. *hugs Echo* =)

Okay, I'm gonna click off this topic for now. I'd rather not try and do any critical thinking at almost 2am.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Derekku Chan wrote:

Echo wrote:

Maybe I shouldn't have blown off like I did. I'm sorry.
You had a right to, though. *hugs Echo* =)
Aww, gay love. <3

Derekku Chan wrote:

Okay, I'm gonna click off this topic for now. I'd rather not try and do any critical thinking at almost 2am.
"almost 2am" huh.

Anyway I'm pretty flaky myself now so I won't say anything either. Good night.
Derekku
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Derekku

strager wrote:

Derekku Chan wrote:

Echo wrote:

Maybe I shouldn't have blown off like I did. I'm sorry.
You had a right to, though. *hugs Echo* =)
Aww, gay love. <3
You're the one that wanted gay sex earlier :<

[/offtopic]

*seriously leaves the topic for the night*
Echo
osu! Alumni
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Echo
OK, with things going the way they've gone, I don't think it'll be fair voting for strager anymore.

*finds the person who's posted least*

... olinad? where are you

unvote
no vote

you're too lucky, strager >:|
anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old
Wait.

LadySubaru wrote:

Edit: Deadline next Thurs at 6:00 PM
How soon is that? =S

Please hurry up with your votes people! (SFG, read! Two not-being-here-guys, read and vote!)

If SFG, nardi11011, and Olinad don't post by the deadline, I request an extension.
BagelBob_old
0 posts
Joined December 2008
BagelBob_old
First, I want to finish up what I started.
I believe this is the full list concerning the doktor.

s: The Doctor PM says "If your protection is successful" -- does this mean the protection can fail? Or does it mean that the protection fails if the Mafia did not target the person you targeted?
E: Doesn't that mean you're doctor >.>
E: dammit WHY do the doctors always need to expose themselves on the first day?
s: D= I didn't mean to.
E: strager hasn't even role claimed - I said he was doctor
D: Sounds like he confirmed it to me. >_>
E: That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion.
E: First, you claim an important role.
E: Firstly, strager never claimed doctor. He just went with what I said. The real doctor would have tried to cover it up. strager, on the other hand, admitted it straight away.
E: First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed. The real doctor wouldn't have wanted to expose himself - he'd die night 1 and the whole town would be in a bit of trouble.
BB: Echo, could you post where strager role claims?
E: viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263 (s: D= I didn't mean to.)
When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.

What I learned from all of this is that I didn't read thoroughly enough. It turns out that that second time that Echo says firstly, he expands it to say that he did admit the claim soon. The only part that isn't exactly consistent now is "That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion", but that's negligible.

Result: strager has claimed to be the doc (by which I mean that I won't say it's too suspicious)

Also, FOS, is a Finger of Suspicion. It's a way of saying that you think someone is a candidate for lynching, but not as strong as a vote.(feel free to say I'm wrong about the weight, Echo, you are the one who used it)

strager wrote:

By the "defense" I meant Echo accusing me of using my role claim as a Doctor to defend myself. I didn't mean defending myself against his arguments.
This confuses me so much, I'll probably end up dropping it unless I can make sense of it when I wake up.

I don't know where you got the idea that I think having the doktor role-claim on the first day is a good idea. I distinctly remember saying "I dislike role claims", and you first quoting me about it, then doing an analysis earlier. Seriously, short term- Hey look, a butterfly!

However, I do like the idea of a fake-claim of the doktor, like I thought Suburu and kuu were doing in WW2. I've seen it work before, and I know it has the potential to be really great.

strager wrote:

----------

Echo seems to be super defensive of adam in his latest next-to-latest post. Why? I'm not pointing my finger at him.
I re-read that post and I don't think Echo is being even slightly defensive of adam.
In fact, he says specifically "None of adam's posts in any way indicate that he is townie"
I don't know how you came up with this, would you care to explain?

lulz @ adam for the Monty Python reference

I still consider strager my major suspect at the moment, and I don't see the reasons why Echo is backing off.

However, I think we still have ~6 days left to decide things, so I'm not ready to lynch him yet. I'd really like to hear a bit more from SFG(with her amazing 1 post), Olinad(with double that), and nardii(with a record 3) before doing anything that can't be reversed.
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Oh and I didn't realise 0_o changed his vote yet again without reasoning (and to me of all people!...jk)
I don't remember making a Monty Python reference...
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

adam2046 wrote:

Oh and I didn't realise 0_o changed his vote yet again without reasoning (and to me of all people!...jk)
I don't remember making a Monty Python reference...
Well I said before that I was thinking either you or nardi, and from the general feel of your posts I just started to lean towards you. It's the first day and there isn't a lot of evidence from anyone to go on, so for today I'm just playing by my gut
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Have you seen a doctor?
There must be something wrong with your gut.
Maybe Strager could help I hear he's a qualified practitioner of doctoring and not at all trying to kill us.
...no, never.
Echo
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0_o wrote:

Well I said before that I was thinking either you or nardi, and from the general feel of your posts I just started to lean towards you. It's the first day and there isn't a lot of evidence from anyone to go on, so for today I'm just playing by my gut
lol?
anonymous_old
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Echo wrote:

0_o wrote:

Well I said before that I was thinking either you or nardi, and from the general feel of your posts I just started to lean towards you. It's the first day and there isn't a lot of evidence from anyone to go on, so for today I'm just playing by my gut
lol?
I agree that bolded part is quite suspicious...

----------

BagelBob wrote:

strager wrote:

By the "defense" I meant Echo accusing me of using my role claim as a Doctor to defend myself. I didn't mean defending myself against his arguments.
This confuses me so much, I'll probably end up dropping it unless I can make sense of it when I wake up.
To clarify:

I asked why someone would try to lynch a Doctor if they were of the Town.
Echo questioned why I was being so defensive.
I stated I was not defending myself. I was just asking a question.
Echo stated:

Echo wrote:

First, you claim an important role. Then you make a post saying that people shouldn't be voting for someone who claims a role. How is that not defending yourself!?
I then I responded:

strager wrote:

Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.
The "claiming Doctor to defend myself" is what I meant by "defending myself" there, and that's what I tried explaining in the post you quoted.

----------

strager wrote:

I don't know where you got the idea that I think having the doktor role-claim on the first day is a good idea. I distinctly remember saying "I dislike role claims", and you first quoting me about it, then doing an analysis earlier.
I was responding to this:

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and I have to disagree with you on that matter. A fake-claim by a town could work out nicely. I certainly don't think that's what's happening here, but I could see it working.
I was working off that the 'could' is 'would' in the hypothetical situation.

----------

strager wrote:

Seriously, short term- Hey look, a butterfly!
ohi adam! <3

----------

BagelBob wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo seems to be super defensive of adam in his latest next-to-latest post. Why? I'm not pointing my finger at him.
I re-read that post and I don't think Echo is being even slightly defensive of adam.
In fact, he says specifically "None of adam's posts in any way indicate that he is townie"
I don't know how you came up with this, would you care to explain?
Mainly in response to this:

Echo wrote:

None of adam's posts in any way indicate that he is townie, and no one should be able to confirm this. Yet strager claims to believe, and has managed to convince himself, that adam is townie. I suspect this is because strager is mafia and knows that adam is townie.
He claims no one should know anything, yet says I do know something. Also, I haven't "confirmed" this -- confirmation requires more information, not a reiteration of the same information.

----------

BagelBob wrote:

I still consider strager my major suspect at the moment, and I don't see the reasons why Echo is backing off.
Maybe because Derekku voted for him and is being more cautious now?

----------

BagelBob wrote:

However, I think we still have ~6 days left to decide things, so I'm not ready to lynch him yet. I'd really like to hear a bit more from SFG(with her amazing 1 post), Olinad(with double that), and nardii(with a record 3) before doing anything that can't be reversed.
Quite.
adam2046
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strager wrote:

strager wrote:

Seriously, short term- Hey look, a butterfly!
ohi adam! <3
Double wrong...
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0_o
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0_o
For the record, I meant evidence for anyone besides strager and Echo, who obviously have been the centre of attention this entire thread :P And you already know my opinions of them, so...
Yuukari-Banteki
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Quick response post:

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

On to my analysis of strager. he's obviously a noob, its hard to tell if his "claim" was actually intentional or not so im going to say...strager if you fully intended to claim the role of doctor when you supposedly did, please do so in bold in your next post.
I did not intend to claim myself as Doctor. I just did it because Echo forced me to.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

As for his repeated mistakes
I think almost all my mistakes have been me either mistyping or miswriting what I meant (which I clarified shortly thereafter).

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

The relative numbers of slip-ups made in the first game are pretty reasonably proportional to how intelligent the player is outside of the game, and strager's slips are out-of-proportion unless he has a serious mental disability that he's been hiding (take it as a compliment, strager, i think you're intelligent).
Are you suggesting more slip-ups mean someone is less intelligent? And how are my slips "out-of-proportion"? Please point them out (I would like to know).

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

However if Echo is mafia than strager is not mafia, and vice versa, because both are intelligent and no intelligent mafia team would attack each other like that.
That supports my strong belief that Echo is a Mafia.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

0_o is doing a beautiful job of defending strager. there are really three possibilities. 1. strager and 0_o are both mafia - if Echo is mafia this is completely invalid. If Echo is town, either 0_o and strager are misled citizens or mafia. 2. strager is mafia and 0_o is a misled citizen. 3. strager and 0_o are both citizens.
based on tone, im guessing that 0_o is a citizen, but that doesnt give me any help at all as to identifying strager.
As I have said, I really don't know what to think of 0_o and I don't know what he's up to (if anything).
Yuukari-Banteki
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*moan* dont make me go through twelve pages of combination trash and wall of text to look for examples of where you messed up, strager. Echo pointed them all out already in his nitpicking

also since strager no longer has the appearance of claiming doctor, which was what was stopping me from voting against him before. this is also making me begin to doubt Echo's skill at this game, but meh.

unvote
vote strager
anonymous_old
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Saturos-fangirl wrote:

also since strager no longer has the appearance of claiming doctor, which was what was stopping me from voting against him before. this is also making me begin to doubt Echo's skill at this game, but meh.

unvote
vote strager
Eek!

I meant I didn't mean to spill the beans! I thought that's what you were asking. I didn't mean I wasn't "unclaiming" myself as Doctor.
nardii
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I'm not sure what to think of the current situation.

(posting because strager thinks i should)
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nardi11011 wrote:

I'm not sure what to think of the current situation.
Think anyway.
Yuukari-Banteki
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strager wrote:

Eek!

I meant I didn't mean to spill the beans! I thought that's what you were asking. I didn't mean I wasn't "unclaiming" myself as Doctor.
so you confirm that you are a Doctor then? ugh i dont know which direction to go now. despite all my logic my gut instinct is still to trust Echo on these things.....but one of the things Echo said is that you should never lynch someone who claims Doctor on day 1. im pretty sure 0_o is a civvy and for above reason i cant vote for either strager or Echo.

unvotei will edit with my vote later once i reread all posts not belonging to the three aforementioned people.


vote adam because of the 25% of posts that dont belong to me, kuu, Subi, or the three people im disregarding, he is the most annoying and suspicious, although i hardly feel comfortable voting against him i feel its safer than lynching Echo or strager and most likely otherwise to be mafia
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Page 13 get.
Post 181 get.
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strager wrote:

strager wrote:

I don't know where you got the idea that I think having the doktor role-claim on the first day is a good idea. I distinctly remember saying "I dislike role claims", and you first quoting me about it, then doing an analysis earlier.
I was responding to this:

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and I have to disagree with you on that matter. A fake-claim by a town could work out nicely. I certainly don't think that's what's happening here, but I could see it working.
I was working off that the 'could' is 'would' in the hypothetical situation.
This, along with

strager wrote:

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

also since strager no longer has the appearance of claiming doctor, which was what was stopping me from voting against him before. this is also making me begin to doubt Echo's skill at this game, but meh.

unvote
vote strager
Eek!

I meant I didn't mean to spill the beans! I thought that's what you were asking. I didn't mean I wasn't "unclaiming" myself as Doctor.
this, makes it sound like you're trying to back out of your doctor claim now. You didn't mean to spill the beans about not being the doctor? Double negative meaning that you are trying to un-claim yourself as the doctor? You've been being very vague from the beginning.

Also, I've failed to see your case on Echo. So far, the only reason I can come up with for your vote is that he was making a case on you. Could you give anything more than that?
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BagelBob wrote:

strager wrote:

strager wrote:

I don't know where you got the idea that I think having the doktor role-claim on the first day is a good idea. I distinctly remember saying "I dislike role claims", and you first quoting me about it, then doing an analysis earlier.
I was responding to this:

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and I have to disagree with you on that matter. A fake-claim by a town could work out nicely. I certainly don't think that's what's happening here, but I could see it working.
I was working off that the 'could' is 'would' in the hypothetical situation.
I don't know how to explain this better. =S

BagelBob wrote:

strager wrote:

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

also since strager no longer has the appearance of claiming doctor, which was what was stopping me from voting against him before. this is also making me begin to doubt Echo's skill at this game, but meh.

unvote
vote strager
Eek!

I meant I didn't mean to spill the beans! I thought that's what you were asking. I didn't mean I wasn't "unclaiming" myself as Doctor.
this, makes it sound like you're trying to back out of your doctor claim now. You didn't mean to spill the beans about not being the doctor? Double negative meaning that you are trying to un-claim yourself as the doctor? You've been being very vague from the beginning.
Okay, let me (try to) clarify.

Claiming Doctor was a slip. I didn't intend for it to happen, and I didn't intend to claim Doctor. But it happened and that's what I meant. I wasn't trying to bring about a double negative by "spilling the beans" about me "unclaiming" myself as Doctor (unless I misunderstand where you're getting the double negative from?).

BagelBob wrote:

Also, I've failed to see your case on Echo. So far, the only reason I can come up with for your vote is that he was making a case on you. Could you give anything more than that?
Obviously, because almost all of what Echo has been doing is "making a case on me." There's nothing else to go on from him, really.
Echo
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S: Indeed, which makes adam somewhat suspect because he is voting for me. Then again, if he were the Mafia, he'd kill me anyway. So I think it's safe to say ... he is not. That is, I am clearing adam's name as a suspect Mafia for me.
E: adam's done absolutely nothing to convince anyone that he's not mafia.
S: I never said I was convinced he wasn't Mafia. I'm just saying for today I won't consider him a possible target.
E: [quoting first line] Read that and tell me you never said you weren't convinced.
S: I meant to say I wasn't convinced by someone else. Sorry.
E: So you admit that you convinced yourself adam is townie?
S: You're attacking. Am I supposed to just take that? Okay, I will.
That is basically the exchange that went on. Every line is a direct quote from chronological posts in this thread.

btw - strager, can you claim doctor in bold without using a negative sentence construct? Something like "claim: doctor"

strager wrote:

D= I didn't mean to.

strager wrote:

I did not intend to claim myself as Doctor.
I'll stop hammering strager.
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Echo wrote:

btw - strager, can you claim doctor in bold without using a negative sentence construct? Something like "claim: doctor"

strager wrote:

D= I didn't mean to.

strager wrote:

I did not intend to claim myself as Doctor.
Claim: Doctor.

Hopefully that clears things up.
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edit: thanks strager
Onto SFG's post...

SFG wrote:

If i assume he's mafia, he would be trying to kill strager because strager "claimed" doctor.
Wrong - if I was mafia, then, as you noted, I was the only person who suggested he accidentally leaked the fact that he was doctor. In which case, I would not bring it up, kill him at night, and leave the whole town wondering why the mafia killed him the next day.

SFG wrote:

Echo: explain why you spent so much time pointing out strager's claim if the claim appears to have been invisible to nearly everyone else and you specifically did not want it to have happened.
Obviously, I don't want the identity of the doctor leaked. I actually did expect strager to deny doctor but instead he said he didn't mean to leak his role. However, theoretically speaking the real doctor has nothing to gain by repeated affirming the fact that he was doctor since he can't protect himself, making revealing his role a really stupid thing to do, which is what makes me extremely suspicious of him.

The main reason for hammering strager, however, is because of the exchange which I've condensed into the first quote in my last post.

edit2: NOTE: this is not exactly an attack against strager, but I'm just explaining to SFG my thought processes. I don't expect you (strager) to reply to this, although you're completely free to.
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Echo wrote:

SFG wrote:

If i assume he's mafia, he would be trying to kill strager because strager "claimed" doctor.
Wrong - if I was mafia, then, as you noted, I was the only person who suggested he accidentally leaked the fact that he was doctor. In which case, I would not bring it up, kill him at night, and leave the whole town wondering why the mafia killed him the next day.

and once again Echo can come up with more devious strategies than i could in my normal mind imagine. Echo is way too pro for this.

._. hopefully he won't die on Day 1 this time cus last time i tried leading the town against the mafia in his stead we all died lol. Although i still hold my vote b/c don't want to risk lynching the doctor if he is real. I'm also really hoping im right to trust Echo here...
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Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Echo wrote:

SFG wrote:

If i assume he's mafia, he would be trying to kill strager because strager "claimed" doctor.
Wrong - if I was mafia, then, as you noted, I was the only person who suggested he accidentally leaked the fact that he was doctor. In which case, I would not bring it up, kill him at night, and leave the whole town wondering why the mafia killed him the next day.

and once again Echo can come up with more devious strategies than i could in my normal mind imagine. Echo is way too pro for this.
You're right. You may have been deceived right there.
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Echo wrote:

I asked the same question again in this post to which you requoted the same thing. I don't see how it's out of context.
Oops; when I read that I thought you were quoting your entire post, not part of it.
Echo
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I was quoting the whole post, which you admit applying your reply to. You refused to answer/comment on my statements/questions, one of which was the conversation in the quoted text. Since it applied to all my questions/statements, I don't think it's out of context?
adam2046
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adam2046
So uh...Why am I being voted if you want to lynch Echo or strager?
Can I have some follow up points on how I'm suspicious?
Derekku
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Ugh. I kept getting distracted by other things. >_<

But for now, I at least want to do this. (forgot to yesterday)

Unvote Echo.
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Echo wrote:

I was quoting the whole post, which you admit applying your reply to. You refused to answer/comment on my statements/questions, one of which was the conversation in the quoted text. Since it applied to all my questions/statements, I don't think it's out of context?
Okay, I made a mistake in my last post.

When you wrote this post (link) I thought you had quoted this post (link), which what I originally refused to answer in this post (link). I don't think I even saw this post (link), so I gues I'll reply here:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

dammit WHY do the doctors always need to expose themselves on the first day?
D= I didn't mean to.
Firstly, strager never claimed doctor. He just went with what I said. The real doctor would have tried to cover it up. strager, on the other hand, admitted it straight away.
I would only try to cover it up to prevent myself from being killed by the Mafia during the Night. If I do that I may be suspect of being a Mafia by the town, because I am trying to cover up things I have said. Then again, keeping open about me being a Doctor also makes me a Mafia suspect because I'd be using it as a way to point votes away from me.

Again, claiming was a mistake, but the damage has been done.

Echo wrote:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

I meant to say I wasn't convinced by someone else. Sorry.
So you admit that you convinced yourself adam is townie? My point still stands - you can't convince yourself someone is townie when they haven't made a single proper post unless you already know they're townie.
Secondly, he admitted to convincing himself adam is townie without adam making any real posts. Plus, he completely ignored this accusation in his last post.
I think we've already gone over this. (If not I am mistaken.)

Echo wrote:

0_o wrote:

And how exactly does mentioning the cop imply that he's claiming cop??
The cop role shouldn't be on your mind, since he's useless until after the first night. Therefore, mentioning it is a tad suspicious. Why would strager be thinking about the cop, then?
I can't find my post but I'm pretty fucking sure I wrote a post answering this question.

Oh here it is, I think (link).
Yuukari-Banteki
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adam2046 wrote:

So uh...Why am I being voted if you want to lynch Echo or strager?
Can I have some follow up points on how I'm suspicious?

youre not, youre being voted on because i DON'T want to lynch Echo or strager. tbh its as close to a random vote as it gets, but a couple of people pointed fingers at you and that was the closest to a lead i got so yeah.
Olinad
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OMG I think I lost track of the voting situation -.-' May anyone post the list of the votes made up to now? I read the discussion but I don't want to make a vote without knowing the situation
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LadySuburu wrote:

Votecount 3:

strager - 2 (adam, nardi)
adam - 2 (0_o, SFG)
Echo - 1 (strager)
SFG - 1 (BagelBob)




Not voting: 3 - (Olinad, Echo, Derekku)
thx, brb
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Echo wrote:

tbh if strager had said something like "I'm just curious to know about the rules around the doctor and how protection works" I wouldn't have had anything to go on, since that would only lead to WIFOM thinking.
Well, I don't ask questions like that, really. I try to be a little more specific in my questions than "how does the Doctor work exactly?" If I had asked the question you suggest I would probably get an answer similar to what the PM states and not what I wanted to know. But you're right, the "claim" wouldn't be discovered and maybe I would have been better protected (because I don't have to worry about the Mafia trying to kill me because they don't know I am the doctor).

Olinard, are you back yet? It's been more than two hours since you said "brb." ;P

EDIT: Echo, what is WIFOM thinking? xD Sounds like "superhypothetical" thinking.
Echo
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http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ront_Of_Me

I thought I'd linked that before :/

Basically it's what you do in your early posts.

"if adam was mafia then [something] BUT if adam is townie then [something] which means he must be mafia if he did it but then that makes him townie because he's smart enough to know it makes him look townie, which means he's actualy mafia, which makes him townie, which makes him mafia etc."
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strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

tbh if strager had said something like "I'm just curious to know about the rules around the doctor and how protection works" I wouldn't have had anything to go on, since that would only lead to WIFOM thinking.
Well, I don't ask questions like that, really. I try to be a little more specific in my questions than "how does the Doctor work exactly?" If I had asked the question you suggest I would probably get an answer similar to what the PM states and not what I wanted to know. But you're right, the "claim" wouldn't be discovered and maybe I would have been better protected (because I don't have to worry about the Mafia trying to kill me because they don't know I am the doctor).

Olinard, are you back yet? It's been more than two hours since you said "brb." ;P

EDIT: Echo, what is WIFOM thinking? xD Sounds like "superhypothetical" thinking.
lol UR right, but I was busy XD

I really dunno who to vote... mmh...
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Echo wrote:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Wine_In_Front_Of_Me

I thought I'd linked that before :/

Basically it's what you do in your early posts.

"if adam was mafia then [something] BUT if adam is townie then [something] which means he must be mafia if he did it but then that makes him townie because he's smart enough to know it makes him look townie, which means he's actualy mafia, which makes him townie, which makes him mafia etc."
By "you" you mean the not me "you"?

And thanks.

/me stabs Olinad into voting.
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By "you" I mean the second person pronoun (ie. you, strager), and not the generic "you"
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Echo wrote:

By "you" I mean the second person pronoun (ie. you, strager), and not the generic "you"
Article says:

Article wrote:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town.
No wonder you were super-suspicious of me. =S However that paragraph talks about after a Night kill so I'm not sure if that really is your reason or if you just don't like my choices about adam.

Then again I pointed out some circular reasoning in your own argument and you didn't comment on it.
adam2046
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...Why aren't you voting yourself then SFG?
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adam2046 wrote:

...Why aren't you voting yourself then SFG?
Or just leave a no-vote?

You don't have to vote do you?
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adam2046
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So you do want to get me lynched?
You are still mad at me.
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adam2046 wrote:

So you do want to get me lynched?
You are still mad at me.
Yeah, SFG seems to be doing more than random voting here.
adam2046
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Don't you try and allay (^_~) suspicion from yourself by pointing out her.
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adam2046 wrote:

I wont be arounf for a little while, if anyone wants to lynch poor little defensless me (SFG) please don't.
You'll make me cryyyyyy T.T

adam2046 wrote:

Don't you try and allay (^_~) suspicion from yourself by pointing out her.
wat
Yuukari-Banteki
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well i suppose i am a bit suspicious because when you were mafia last game i couldnt tell that you were at ALL. i think it might have been nardi that pointed a FOS at adam or maybe the FOS wa-oh fuck it let me go find the post

yeah 0_o pointed a FOS at adam and nardi and i chose adam.

also im lol'ing about how you guys are trying to pick apart logic that doesn't exist @_@ also im sick of vote-hopping which is why i havent changed it
adam2046
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Hey, I'm not the one claiming doctor.
Yuukari-Banteki
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were you not listening when i said that the reason i dont want strager lynched is that B/C HE CLAIMED DOCTOR i dont want to risk lynching an aux on day 1
adam2046
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That was @ strager not you, you ninja'd me.
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adam2046 wrote:

Hey, I'm not the one claiming doctor.

adam2046 wrote:

Don't you try and allay (^_~) suspicion from yourself by pointing out her.
wat

EDIT: Ignore this (see adam's last post =X).
adam2046
1,653 posts
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adam2046
I don't get it...
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
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anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

adam2046 wrote:

I don't get it...

Echo wrote:

Neither do I.

revote strager
Are you two referring to my wat post? If so I'll explain.

First he says "don't kill me, SFG" (in more words) then accuses me of "pointing out her" as a way to "allay suspicion from me." That is, he did what he told me not to do.

The second wat post was a mistake; I was being stupid then. xD
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
Ok, you can kill me now (no don't) didn't take as long as I expected.
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki
Echo, why are you voting for strager after specifically stating that Day 1 was a bad time to lynch an important aux claim?
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Echo, why are you voting for strager after specifically stating that Day 1 was a bad time to lynch an important aux claim?
Read part one of my monster post (link).
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki
no, i get that he suspects that you arent doctor but not why hes violating a "basic principle" he set out in a different mafia game. THAT is what i want him to explain.
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046
In my mind all Echo was really doing was hinting to to strager that if he was the real doctor he should unclaim or not claim at all, because strager has continued I think Echo may have come to the conclusion that strager is a wolf.

...At least that's my analysis of the situation.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

adam2046 wrote:

In my mind all Echo was really doing was hinting to to strager that if he was the real doctor he should unclaim or not claim at all, because strager has continued I think Echo may have come to the conclusion that strager is a wolf.

...At least that's my analysis of the situation.
I didn't get that at all from Echo. =X

But the deed is done and I'm not going back on my word.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
I have these suspicion percentages (0 - definitely Townie; 100 - definitely Mafia; 50 - undecided):
adam - 40%
BagelBob - 40%
nadi - 40%
SFG - 40%
Olinad - 50%
Derekku - 60%
0_o - 65%
Echo - 100%

These are estimates of course but shows my relative suspicions for everyone.

Yes, I am 100% sure Echo is a Mafia.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo

strager wrote:

These are estimates of course but shows my relative suspicions for everyone.
So everyone is 40% mafia.

strager wrote:

Yes, I am 100% sure Echo is a Mafia.
Lynch me~!

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Echo, why are you voting for strager after specifically stating that Day 1 was a bad time to lynch an important aux claim?
Basically what adam said - I'm pretty sure that strager is not doctor, which is why I'm voting him.
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