Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)

posted
Total Posts
452
show more
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
As for the fact that it may fit the song is one thing, i dont see the problem with switching from a ddkdkdkdk...something stream to 3 3/4 big dons if there are some enphasis in there, then back to another stream, I havent even seen any point in which there are enphasized notes IN THE MIDDLE OF A STREAM, considering you're still mapping to the same instrument, on any song whatsoever, and switching instruments often in middle of a stream is just... no.

osu! has it's hitsounds to recognize a different sound from another instrument in middle of mapping, in Taiko it's different, your hitsounds are part of your mapping, so it's pretty hard (and maybe annoying) to switch instruments when you're clearly following something else, just to have an enphasis in middle of the stream, i rather you have a small pause then hit the enphasis then go back to your other instrument after said pause.

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.

Edit: if anything use a regular don in middle of katsus to give recognitiion to enphasized notes in a stream, lone enphasis is when you'd normally go with big dons/katsus.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
(by the way we're done now; I agree with the no 1/4th rule, just clearing up some stuff)

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptable.
I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.

lepidopodus wrote:

approach rate
Sorry I thought you read this:

aabc271 wrote:

Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
I can use "speed of notes" but approach rate is the rate (velocity) of approach (something coming closer). I'm not talking about the option in the .osu file.

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play (hitting the same key with the same finger at a rate of 800 hits per minute is hard). 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read (Big notes are larger than normal and cover up the note behind them, making it easy to not see the note).

lepidopodus wrote:

@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
I know you hate analogies but I have one last one.
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura Hana wrote:

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
Check 2nd page of this thread and you will see who questioned it first.

ziin wrote:

I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.
The same logic that how wrong is 'I can do that so why you ban it?'. At least I considered as experts in Taiko mapping so my thoughts can be a bit more influencial. There is not exact answer for this, but YOU stated about availability of streamy big notes first and constantly.

ziin wrote:

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play. 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read.
1/4 streamy big notes are non-authentic, but I never said 'it is wrong cause it's non-authentic'. Some other guys said similar things though.

ziin wrote:

I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
No one intervenes how mapper maps, but we are talking about standards for ranked maps. If certain 'mapping style' is simply denied and considered as annoying in the community, why should we accept that as a ranked ones while the community looked down it? Yeah that so-called 'mapping style' can have some supporters, but far from ranked ones until it accepted by the community.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
Last edited by Backfire , edited 2 times in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

mm201 wrote:

I think this needs to be left up to modders.
I'm still thinking about this. It's not a bad though. But atm just saying.

@ziin & lepidopodus:

lepidopodus you know(as ther others do), after poonwing, I'm also a big supporter of finishes at the end of a streams, but ziin, just at the end of a strem: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm still not a supporter your idea.
Also the second one who made this map, was a Taiko jiro mapper and not authentic one. They have other mapping styles as the real authentic so use them as supporter is not helpfull at all. Sorry.

Watching trough suggested points now, to add them into the second list.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Sander-Don wrote:

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
@sander
SPOILER

Sander-Don wrote:

I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
In the past there's no limit (the 2008 - early2009 era?), and after drumroll restriction scores has been reset once, that was painful for me XD I don't think there'll be a second resetting -w-

==================

back to topic, lepi and sakura spoke all I thought:
- Simply no finishes on streams at this moment. Reasons are as explained by Sakura.
- "Exceptional cases" are complex and hard to clarify here, they could be handled individually.
Last edited by wmfchris , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
No one's insulting anyone, I'm just frustrated with people trying to make taiko unauthentic. Thanks.
Yeah, Mitten told me that, Chris xD
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Odaril wrote:

I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
Ono and me are grate frans.
It's cool. I'm not insulting anyone, i'm just saying I make the best rulez ;-;
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Thank you Odaril. Really, thank you. That's what I have normaly wanted. orz

Reference on the rules at the moment, saying what is bad and what not, what could be made better. But mostly hearing just thinks which have been mentioned in the first post allready.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Oh god, I'm out of here.
Have fun screwing up taiko. o/
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.

When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
Last edited by Backfire , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
This is your opinion. The idea of this thread is to allow for more flexibility than what only you may want to see in a game.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?

And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
Last edited by Backfire , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Backfire wrote:

What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Backfire wrote:

I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.

When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
New Rule: no finishes because they are super annoyinz [/sarcasm]

Backfire wrote:

TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
copy those rules then. Find them and translate them for this thread please.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Uhhhh

HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.

What the heck does #2 mean?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.

I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.

@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

Backfire wrote:

I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
We had no rules, just guidelines. And some of them need an update as in the first post mentioned before.

peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.

lepidopodus wrote:

I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
Exactly.

@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.

Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Ok ok

Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"

So what now?

They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.

osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?

Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
we are done. I agree with you on all the rules except the xxxdD or xxxkD (which I am still unsure of). I was criticizing backfires poor attitude towards this thread.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@Backfire: To tell the truth, there isn't real 'authentic rule' or something. We just interprete Namco's maps and find some 'rules', then consider them as so-called 'authentic rules'. Yeah that was basis of lots of Taiko maps even in here, but as time goes on, people start trying new things, so now we are a bit far from that. (Hey even Namco tried new things these days...) Currently we are here to state exact rule for us, not authentic things or something, so would you stop talking about authentics in here? Someone will hate that.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
I'm saying "rules" because they are just what I have always interpreted the game this way.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
If authenticity is all you care about, you should include the 999 combo rule.

Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: But we abolished that 999 rule with our own hands in previous 'agreement'. Hey and after that, Namco abolished that rule too, lol.

@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Authenticity?
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
Last edited by Backfire , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
So as far as i can see:
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.

Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.

Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
Dragvon
osu! Alumni
2,269 posts
Joined June 2009
Dragvon

OnosakiHito wrote:

~Discussions~
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
I'll just throw my opinion on these.

Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.

So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"



This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Leaving beat snap on should be good enough. No need for an unwritten convention most modders will be unaware of.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
~Information~

Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.

~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 3 times in total.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Dragvon wrote:

So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
I would greatly prefer the ability to change the playback rate of gameplay while testing the map. This would prove infinitely more useful than any "convention" for modders. Modders need to be looking directly at the gameplay to be able to make suggestions.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
ddddD should be considered equivalent to DD. Doubles aren't as hard as triples or longer.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Purple bolded suggestions will be added/edit in the first post.

lepidopodus wrote:

Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
OnosakiHito: I should mentione that easier one can have lower OD.
About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz

Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.

Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
OnosakiHito: Yeah 1.60 is just good for slower BPM(Note: Visual aspect is importand).

Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.

Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.

Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.

Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
OnosakiHito: So we let the mapper decide in this case?

Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
OnosakiHito: I agree.

BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
OnosakiHito: I agree.

Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.

Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.

Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.

Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Onosakihito wrote:

So we let the mapper decide in this case?
In my opinion, yes, we don't need to regulate that. If it spammed, everyone will notice so no need to worry about this.
Originally drumroll was 'hit as much as you want'. It is changed like current ones cause some guys using bad ways to achieve more score via this. (Yeah wmfchris stated about this already.) That is why I said 'Considering original meaning of drum rolls blahblahblah'.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
93 / 452