@Sander-Don: That's what I want to hear. Thank you.
Anyway, I'm the same opinion as Sander and lepidopodus.
Anyway, I'm the same opinion as Sander and lepidopodus.
show more
I understand that balancing should be done around the Taiko skin, but there is still the default one.
I actually use the taiko skin but I deleted everything in it except the cool HP Bar o.ob
EDIT1: Also I dont really have an opinion on much of this, except for OD5-7 and the BPM changes.
I really hate it when there is a slow BPM section at the start of the song with a fast BPM change later, it makes the song impossible to hidden.
It should be done like http://puu.sh/ehei and not http://puu.sh/ehev
(Examples are Vicho-kun's and wcx's Endless Story (TV Size))
EDIT2: Yeah I agree with everything Sander and Love have said pretty much.
Pulling a Sakura Hana here and giving you my take on your take
We think alike, Don.
EDIT: Merged double post.
That's another case which is irrelevant though.
The fact is ddKdd is not a hard pattern to play at any reasonable BPM. kdDdk is a much harder pattern, but still achievable at 200 BPM. Both are however difficult patterns to read since most players are not used to it, and due to the limitations of the skin. I mean I don't like playing maps that go back on themselves and are very difficult to read. How can we say with certainty that eggpain difficulty is unrankable, especially if it's possible? I just want to make sure you're going to deny it for a good reason, not just because of eggpain.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/226256 - if the d after the K here were a repeating slider in osu, it would be borderline rankable (the modder would probably tell the person to fix it). However I still fail to see how this is so impossible to read.
Osu's taiko is much easier than authentic due to having 4 inputs rather than 2 inputs, as well.
2. You need to hit both red or both blue to get the full points for a finish, which it's impossible to get the full points if there's no space between a note and a finish, which means it has to be 1/2 or 1/3 in occasions to hit. i.e.:ddD d D first one is impossible to hit, but the 2nd one is easier to hit.
In official TnT games the lane is way longer, and it really can effect accuracy/skill.
I can't keep good acc on taiko ds to save my life, but then the same songs on osu!taiko it's an easy SS.
Note that I am pretty equal in skill from DS to KB.
In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".
Currently it's:
I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.
This also helps me understand taiko better in the hopes that someday I will get better at playing/modding it.
I have a lot less of a problem with guidelines, so if this is a guideline I don't care as much.
This is going stupid. I won't accept any statement about big notes or finish notes below here, cause I think this is denial of capability of Taiko community.
Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)
@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)
Some good people on this thread, kind of happy to see them =)
Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
Increasing the speed of notes could improve readability, but it doesn't affect the density of notes.
Because players still have to hit the notes at a certain BPM, no matter how high the speed of notes are
but they all follow the most basic elements from the authentic, such as no long 1/8s, no 1/4 finishes on most cases etc.
Also, what does the life drain do in taiko?
Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations this much?
The Taiko skin's soft sampleset's volume needs to be fixed, as I said earlier. All the problems you describe would be fixed in this case.
I'm misunderstanding again.
Edit: I still think that wouldn't be very readable unless you increase SV, and increasing SV to read some big notes, will decrease the time the players have to read anything else to begin with.
However feel free to measure it in miliseconds if that's better for you.
Rather than make a cut point at a certain BPM, it should be at the 1/4 mark, since taiko approach rate varies with BPM, and the slider speed should vary very little. Fast BPMs are "too annoying/not authentic" but readable. Slow BPMs are "unreadable due to skin". You'd be left with a range of stuff where it's okay to use, and in that case a flat deny of all 1/4 would be better and easier.
@OnosakiHito
under Exceptions: is xxxdD allowed?
@ziin & lepidopodus:
lepidopodus you know(as ther others do), after poonwing, I'm also a big supporter of finishes at the end of a streams, but ziin, just at the end of a strem: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm still not a supporter your idea.
Also the second one who made this map, was a Taiko jiro mapper and not authentic one. They have other mapping styles as the real authentic so use them as supporter is not helpfull at all. Sorry.
Watching trough suggested points now, to add them into the second list.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.
Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
It's cool. I'm not insulting anyone, i'm just saying I make the best rulez ;-;
peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.
@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.
Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
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Topic Starter
Sakura Hana wrote:
Soft sampleset should never be used as with Taiko skin it shows a super really low volume that more often than not, blends with the music (I've seen it happen to almost every Taiko map i mod).
I disagree with this. Not everyone plays taiko with taiko skin, and there is a very drastic difference in sound between normal and soft set in the default skin. If you ask me, this should get changed so if soft set is used, it's volume should be increased to atleast match the normal set volume, instead of just banning soft hitsound set.OnosakiHito wrote:
- The generel use must be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles too quite.
I understand that balancing should be done around the Taiko skin, but there is still the default one.
I have nothing to add rule-wise to the discussion, but I think it is wonderful that taiko people are finally showing concrete progress. Go!
Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.
I'll post more when I have time.
@KRZY: We had this kind of discussion previously, but it just called 'agreement' so it didn't have any enforcements or something. Since this discussion is quite official... Yeah you can call this as a progress.
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.
I'll post more when I have time.
@KRZY: We had this kind of discussion previously, but it just called 'agreement' so it didn't have any enforcements or something. Since this discussion is quite official... Yeah you can call this as a progress.
Except not even 100% soft can compare to even 50% Normal, that's how big the difference is with Taiko skinlolcubes wrote:
I disagree with this. Not everyone plays taiko with taiko skin, and there is a very drastic difference in sound between normal and soft set in the default skin. If you ask me, this should get changed so if soft set is used, it's volume should be increased to atleast match the normal set volume, instead of just banning soft hitsound set.
I understand that balancing should be done around the Taiko skin, but there is still the default one.
Topic Starter
@lolcubes: Exactly what Sakura Hana say.
@KRYZ: As lepidopodus said. Anyway, thank you.
@lepidopodus: About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz
Uh pretty late here. Offline for now.
@KRYZ: As lepidopodus said. Anyway, thank you.
@lepidopodus: About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz
Uh pretty late here. Offline for now.
Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.
General settings
HP drain should be 5
OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
NO countdown (It's unauthentic)
NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
NO letter boxes during breaks. (unauthentic as well.)
Drumrolls (sliders) Shouldn't be used to much. But also not used sparingly. In most authentic maps, drum rolls are quite abundant. (1 - 3 rolls per song at least.)
1/8 should NEVER be used. unless of course the BPM is low enough that it is humanly possible to hit. (not including them fast asian fingers.)
1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
That's just my take on it. I'll probably add more later.
General settings
HP drain should be 5
OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
NO countdown (It's unauthentic)
NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
NO letter boxes during breaks. (unauthentic as well.)
Drumrolls (sliders) Shouldn't be used to much. But also not used sparingly. In most authentic maps, drum rolls are quite abundant. (1 - 3 rolls per song at least.)
1/8 should NEVER be used. unless of course the BPM is low enough that it is humanly possible to hit. (not including them fast asian fingers.)
1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
That's just my take on it. I'll probably add more later.
Well here are my opinions on your rules
That's about all i wanted to say.Sander-Don wrote:
Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.
General settings
HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
Agree Taiko is hard already to hit as it is with OD 5 anyways.
NO countdown (It's unauthentic)
Agree For the same reasons as yours
NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
Agree Due to the previous reasons about soft sampleset being almost unhearable in Taiko skin.
NO letter boxes during breaks. (unauthentic as well.)
Somewhat AgreeMore like there shouldn't even be breaks, i dont remember Taiko no Tatsujin having a single break ever, plus HP only goes down when you miss notes, it's not constantly draining (i think?)
Drumrolls (sliders) Shouldn't be used to much. But also not used sparingly. In most authentic maps, drum rolls are quite abundant. (1 - 3 rolls per song at least.)
Not sure what to comment on this.
1/8 should NEVER be used. unless of course the BPM is low enough that it is humanly possible to hit. (not including them fast asian fingers.)
Agree Nothing else to add.
1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Agree Nothing else to add.
Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Agree Come on, it's just not right at all to have to spam Double notes for any reason whatsoever, i dont even remember other Rythm games like DDR making you spam left/right at the same time at anything bigger than 1/1 or 1/2.
That's just my take on it. I'll probably add more later.
That's a good point you have there.Sakura Hana wrote:
Well here are my opinions on your rulesSander-Don wrote:
Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.
General settings
HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
I prefer the hitsounds/looks on the osu! taiko skin xDSander-Don wrote:
Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
I actually use the taiko skin but I deleted everything in it except the cool HP Bar o.ob
EDIT1: Also I dont really have an opinion on much of this, except for OD5-7 and the BPM changes.
I really hate it when there is a slow BPM section at the start of the song with a fast BPM change later, it makes the song impossible to hidden.
It should be done like http://puu.sh/ehei and not http://puu.sh/ehev
(Examples are Vicho-kun's and wcx's Endless Story (TV Size))
EDIT2: Yeah I agree with everything Sander and Love have said pretty much.
Hurr.
Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk. If anything, if you feel you have overmapped, pause with only 1 d or k depending on the pitch.
Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk. If anything, if you feel you have overmapped, pause with only 1 d or k depending on the pitch.
Welp, Opinions~Makar8000 wrote:
I prefer the hitsounds/looks on the osu! taiko skin xD
I actually use the taiko skin but I deleted everything in it except the cool HP Bar o.ob
Pulling a Sakura Hana here and giving you my take on your take
Love wrote:
Hurr.
Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Agreed
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.Agreed but, mainly stick to the drums unless there is like a guitar or piano solo I guess.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk. If anything, if you feel you have overmapped, pause with only 1 d or k depending on the pitch.Agreed
We think alike, Don.
EDIT: Merged double post.
Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.
Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.
Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.
Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.
Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.
Ahh, I forgot to mention the SV.
Thanks, lepi.
Thanks, lepi.
Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.
Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.
Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.
Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.
Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.
Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.
Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
making a technical note here
Going out soon so I'll read through this later <3
========================================
Agree with this, instead of overmapping blank part on the song, break should be manually removed (don't know if it's possible btw >.>
[Events]delete that line and save. don't save in editor mode or else breaks appear again.
//Background and Video events
0,0,"BG2.jpg"
//Break Periods
2,55206,69378
//Storyboard Layer 0 (Background)
//Storyboard Layer 1 (Fail)
//Storyboard Layer 2 (Pass)
//Storyboard Layer 3 (Foreground)
//Storyboard Sound Samples
//Background Colour Transformations
3,100,163,162,255
Going out soon so I'll read through this later <3
========================================
Taiko maps aren't supposed to be super hard, they're supposed to fit the song. (aka vocals or drums)about finishes: I can hit DDDDDDDDD 1/4 in BPM180 (raijin) or even higher, but is that fits the song? This ismore important.
Because I am unable to. I have issues between my sound card and the game, and any custom sounds (including the ones from a skin) will either crash my game at random, or all sounds will just disappear. This is an issue I just can't solve and there is no going around it.Sander-Don wrote:
Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
That's another case which is irrelevant though.
Unless I am mistaken, it's because the big notes are, well, big? They block the next note. Osu! standard has a similar problem with hitbursts blocking the next note too, so what a lot of players do is skin them out.Loctav wrote:
Regarding the big hit notes... ...It's not because we fail at playing, it's because it's almost unreadable.
While I certainly can't (my max is 140 sustained which is why I used that figure), anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.omegaflo wrote:
No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think so
So is there a problem leaving the option open to the approval crowd? I could probably find a song where the drummer uses both sticks in a sixteenth note stream, which would be the taiko equivalent of what you're denying.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.
Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
completely untrue. there are many people who can do 200 BPM. I wouldn't be surprised if a few could go up to 250.Sander-Don wrote:
The fact that it's impossible to hit (unless the map is under 140 BPM) is the problem.
Of course not, but what if that's the way the song goes? Don't map it? Why should rules disallow super hard maps? As far as I know big notes are optional. You don't actually have to hit both notes do you?Sander-Don wrote:
And it's just stupid, when would that fit into a song?... ...Taiko maps aren't supposed to be super hard, they're supposed to fit the song. (aka vocals or drums). Just because the map is 220 BPM, doesn't mean you have t go all dsfargeg
The fact is ddKdd is not a hard pattern to play at any reasonable BPM. kdDdk is a much harder pattern, but still achievable at 200 BPM. Both are however difficult patterns to read since most players are not used to it, and due to the limitations of the skin. I mean I don't like playing maps that go back on themselves and are very difficult to read. How can we say with certainty that eggpain difficulty is unrankable, especially if it's possible? I just want to make sure you're going to deny it for a good reason, not just because of eggpain.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/226256 - if the d after the K here were a repeating slider in osu, it would be borderline rankable (the modder would probably tell the person to fix it). However I still fail to see how this is so impossible to read.
Listen, Finish notes in 1/4 have nothing to do with seeing the next note.
It's the fact that nobody can hit a stream that's 14 notes long of finish notes (say all D notes) in 200 BPM maps.
But what overrides that is the fact that it's not authentic.
They're really should be no discussion about this.
Edit no you don't have to hit it with both hands, but still.
In authentic taiko, that's how it's supposed to be hit. And aren't we trying to make this as authentic as possible?
Edit 2 And about what Chris said, Yes, I can hit finish notes in long streams too, weather it be all finish, or 1 at the start or end of the stream. But the problem is it being unauthentic.
Just because one person (TTTL in this case) Can hit 1/8 streams, doesn't mean it should be something that's allowed in a map.
Or just because me and you (Chris) can hit finish notes in streams, doesn't mean it should be allowed either.
It's unauthentic
It's the fact that nobody can hit a stream that's 14 notes long of finish notes (say all D notes) in 200 BPM maps.
But what overrides that is the fact that it's not authentic.
They're really should be no discussion about this.
Edit no you don't have to hit it with both hands, but still.
In authentic taiko, that's how it's supposed to be hit. And aren't we trying to make this as authentic as possible?
Edit 2 And about what Chris said, Yes, I can hit finish notes in long streams too, weather it be all finish, or 1 at the start or end of the stream. But the problem is it being unauthentic.
Just because one person (TTTL in this case) Can hit 1/8 streams, doesn't mean it should be something that's allowed in a map.
Or just because me and you (Chris) can hit finish notes in streams, doesn't mean it should be allowed either.
It's unauthentic
No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4ths, not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
Not everyone can play insane either. That's a terrible argument.Love wrote:
No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4ths
I'm afraid I don't understand your point.Love wrote:
not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
That's not what others are sayingSander-Don wrote:
Listen, Finish notes in 1/4 have nothing to do with seeing the next note.
I already told you this was untrueSander-Don wrote:
It's the fact that nobody can hit a stream that's 14 notes long of finish notes (say all D notes) in 200 BPM maps.
Good enough reason for me. I think it's a stupid reason, but I'll accept it. Just make sure everything else is as close to authentic as possible.Sander-Don wrote:
But what overrides that is the fact that it's not authentic.
Osu's taiko is much easier than authentic due to having 4 inputs rather than 2 inputs, as well.
Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
And about the 4 inputs on osu! and 2 on authentic. the wii, psp, and ds games have 4 inputs as well. (That is of course if your not using the tatacon on the wii.)
I'd like to discuss more, but I gotta go to sleep. hopefully the people that actually know something about taiko will keep this thread sensible.
And about the 4 inputs on osu! and 2 on authentic. the wii, psp, and ds games have 4 inputs as well. (That is of course if your not using the tatacon on the wii.)
I'd like to discuss more, but I gotta go to sleep. hopefully the people that actually know something about taiko will keep this thread sensible.
You're a good enough player to know how less notes on the screen make rhythm games easier up to the point where the player can't keep up anymore.Sander-Don wrote:
Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
1. There's no rule that there needs to be muzukashii diffs if there's an Oni, or an Oni diff if there's an Inner Oni. Taiko maps do not have a full mapset unless they are done from authentic maps into taikosu! maps, which is what Arien666 makes.ziin wrote:
Not everyone can play insane either. That's a terrible argument.Love wrote:
No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4thsI'm afraid I don't understand your point..Love wrote:
not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
2. You need to hit both red or both blue to get the full points for a finish, which it's impossible to get the full points if there's no space between a note and a finish, which means it has to be 1/2 or 1/3 in occasions to hit. i.e.:
Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?
glhf
We tried this once, remember?
glhf
quoted for the truthMMzz wrote:
Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?
glhf
It's actually true.ziin wrote:
You're a good enough player to know how less notes on the screen make rhythm games easier up to the point where the player can't keep up anymore.Sander-Don wrote:
Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
In official TnT games the lane is way longer, and it really can effect accuracy/skill.
I can't keep good acc on taiko ds to save my life, but then the same songs on osu!taiko it's an easy SS.
Note that I am pretty equal in skill from DS to KB.
One of the MAT/BATs that I've seen with good taiko mods, Garven. <3 him for that and he should teach the others.
Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
@ziin: Are you trying to enforce rules that isn't from us? You are just talking about something other than Taiko, like talking about osu standard thing or stepmania thing etc etc. We suffered quite a lot already cause in the past there was quite lots of BATs who wants to enforce osu standard rules in Taiko mode. That is why we tryed to make our own rules once already. We are talking about Taiko so don't find examples from other things like 'Hey, there is similar thing in osu standard, so it is ok!'. I'm tired of this.
Being logical might important but our concensus is more important since it is a game, not an academical things. That is against our consensus (or something known as consensus) so we don't accept that. If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.
And allowing everything cause it is possible to play to someone, lol, is that you want?
Being logical might important but our concensus is more important since it is a game, not an academical things. That is against our consensus (or something known as consensus) so we don't accept that. If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.
And allowing everything cause it is possible to play to someone, lol, is that you want?
I think making rules should be kept to the absolute minimum so that the mapper and player have more freedom in what they make/play. If it's impossible it should not be allowed, and in that case it's obvious and a rule is not needed unless it's been abused in the past. The reverse is not necessarily true, but what I want is an explanation as to why the rule should exist.lepidopodus wrote:
Are you trying to enforce rules that isn't from us?... ...Allowing everything cause it is possible to play, lol, is that you want?
In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".
Currently it's:
big notes in 1/4 streams are too hard to read since the big note covers up the next note
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.big notes are too hard to play because you have to hit the same button twice in rapid succession
There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.this never happens in TnT authentic and is not how TnT is played
I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.
This also helps me understand taiko better in the hopes that someday I will get better at playing/modding it.
I have a lot less of a problem with guidelines, so if this is a guideline I don't care as much.
In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?lepidopodus wrote:
If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.
In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".We aren't composing musical thing. Based on songs? Fine. Cling to songs even ignoring enjoyment? No. And lots of player think that is far from enjoyment. Don't forget that one of Taiko player's complains before this amount of Taiko map have been made was existance of 1/4 big notes.
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.
There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.I already said that enjoyment should not be overridden by song elements due ti its a game. And you are stating about osu standard again. You can't persuade us by this.
I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.Yeah statement like 'it's authentic' isn't good, but denying influence of TnT, blargh.
I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.No you are just stating about other games cause you can't find anything, anyone that supports your opnion in Taiko. Don't trying to enforce that we don't like, it is just trolling to us. If we start think we need to abolosh those restictions, WE will do it. (And we are already talking about weaken it a bit.)
In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?Rules also function as guideline for newbies, so we state those kind of things. There's also some kind of historical reason. I already told you that one of our complain was 1/4 big notes. There was days that BAT denied peculiarity of Taiko, so we need to state how we are different by insist some difference, and that was one thing. You lack these kind of understandings, don't think this as that easy thing.
This is going stupid. I won't accept any statement about big notes or finish notes below here, cause I think this is denial of capability of Taiko community.
meow :3
I don't know if 1/4 finish stream would be good but
AT LEAST, IT IS NOT EASY TO HIT THEM ON KEYBOARD
In authentic Taiko game, there's no 1/4 finish stream if the pattern goes with normal speed or slow speed(BPM 120+/Inherited x1.0/SV 1.4)
1 song(大打音) is with special reason which is Inherited x1.66/BPM 135/SV 1.4 so it is sightable on user's sight.
But if 1/4 finish stream on general pattern without any speed change or SV adjustment, it just ruins the map.
So, I don't agree with this unban orz
I don't know if 1/4 finish stream would be good but
AT LEAST, IT IS NOT EASY TO HIT THEM ON KEYBOARD
In authentic Taiko game, there's no 1/4 finish stream if the pattern goes with normal speed or slow speed(BPM 120+/Inherited x1.0/SV 1.4)
1 song(大打音) is with special reason which is Inherited x1.66/BPM 135/SV 1.4 so it is sightable on user's sight.
But if 1/4 finish stream on general pattern without any speed change or SV adjustment, it just ruins the map.
So, I don't agree with this unban orz
Why do you think it should be lvl 5? As I understand you say it should be lvl 5 because you... don't want to clear a map with much misses?Well.... Yes ? =D
Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)
@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)
400BPM 1/4 ? I think they are only 4-5 players able to do that srsly, rules can't be watch'd for only these 4-5 >.>ziin wrote:
anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
Some good people on this thread, kind of happy to see them =)
I think the "approach rates" said by ziin means the speed of notes.lepidopodus wrote:
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.
Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
Increasing the speed of notes could improve readability, but it doesn't affect the density of notes.
Because players still have to hit the notes at a certain BPM, no matter how high the speed of notes are
Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.Their mapping styles could be different from the authentic ( eg hitsounds, note placements ),
but they all follow the most basic elements from the authentic, such as no long 1/8s, no 1/4 finishes on most cases etc.
Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.omegaflo wrote:
No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think soWhile I certainly can't (my max is 140 sustained which is why I used that figure), anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
Explanation
First of all, 1/8 is a double denser than 1/4.
ie 1/4 of 180 BPM = 1/8 of 90 BPM
And tapping 1/4 with single finger = Tapping 1/8 with both hands
ie BPM 180 tap by single hand = BPM 360 tap by both hands
As I know, most average players feel tired when they hit 220+ BPM 1/4, even by using both hands.
Some more extreme players can play ~ 250 BPM 1/4 well, I guess.
And I'm quite sure that nearly nobody can play 400 BPM 1/4, as that is 1/8 of 200 BPM.
Take this map as an example.
The BPM is 185, but still only 2 FCed because the map contains few 1/8s and a 1/3 + 1/8.
The 1/8s in the map is same as 1/4 of BPM 370
And consider that hln (#2) tried for 245 times to get that record, which means that 1/4 of 400 BPM is nearly impossible for all players.
Well, some can do that, but 99% can't
ie 1/4 of 180 BPM = 1/8 of 90 BPM
And tapping 1/4 with single finger = Tapping 1/8 with both hands
ie BPM 180 tap by single hand = BPM 360 tap by both hands
As I know, most average players feel tired when they hit 220+ BPM 1/4, even by using both hands.
Some more extreme players can play ~ 250 BPM 1/4 well, I guess.
And I'm quite sure that nearly nobody can play 400 BPM 1/4, as that is 1/8 of 200 BPM.
Take this map as an example.
The BPM is 185, but still only 2 FCed because the map contains few 1/8s and a 1/3 + 1/8.
The 1/8s in the map is same as 1/4 of BPM 370
And consider that hln (#2) tried for 245 times to get that record, which means that 1/4 of 400 BPM is nearly impossible for all players.
Well, some can do that, but 99% can't
I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.aabc271 wrote:
Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.
I think it would be fun. Are all the scores and FCs hacked or something?omegaflo wrote:
@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)
is this unrankable?arien666 wrote:
大打音
Also, what does the life drain do in taiko?
This thread is a tl;dr so please excuse me if this has already been said:
Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.
Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.
Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.
In order to convince others that finishes stream is possible, list some maps that real accent which occurs at middle of stream and is appearing in conseccutive manner.
Again, we make maps to enhance the music itself and
and about Made of Fire, this point is quite weak when you look at the replay.
No mod full score = 747680
No mod full score without hitting big circles completely ~560000
and in the scoreboard, score concentrates between 580000~620000, that is, players in general can't play nig notes well, and it's unpeasent to play so. (Asked them before when this is ranked lol) Ignoreing big circles, this map is quite easy to FC with.
==========================================
P.S.1
HP life drain = HP deducted per miss
==========================================
P.S.2
I agree to mm201, the only problem is whether big/small mixed streams are necessary.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.This one does not sound reasonable for me. All elements, from BG image to slider velocity to pattern arrangements, should fit the song. If you are trying to make big note-related stream more readable by increasing SV, you are creating another elements that does not fit the song, and is not welcomed at all.
In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?We make rules for the future and we would never know whether it would be abused, especially the new comers in mapping taiko stuffs.
In order to convince others that finishes stream is possible, list some maps that real accent which occurs at middle of stream and is appearing in conseccutive manner.
Again, we make maps to enhance the music itself and
Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.We can map maps that fits the song and fun at the same time, but we can't map for those guys enjoying extreme maps.
and about Made of Fire, this point is quite weak when you look at the replay.
No mod full score = 747680
No mod full score without hitting big circles completely ~560000
and in the scoreboard, score concentrates between 580000~620000, that is, players in general can't play nig notes well, and it's unpeasent to play so. (Asked them before when this is ranked lol) Ignoreing big circles, this map is quite easy to FC with.
==========================================
P.S.1
HP life drain = HP deducted per miss
==========================================
P.S.2
I agree to mm201, the only problem is whether big/small mixed streams are necessary.
A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us. I personally don't want to set a restriction in here, but I guess some players want it.mm201 wrote:
Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
At least I no longer talked like 'hey it is authentic so we need to accept it!'mm201 wrote:
"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
In usual setting it is considered as annoying. I guess you've seen several times in here already?mm201 wrote:
Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
Breaks in Taiko is almost non-functional except showing O/X like thing for now cause lots of elements in breaks of osu standard removed from Taiko. Not that important whether remove it or not to me, to be honest.mm201 wrote:
Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.
At least one thing: next note shouldn't be too close, like 1/4 gap.mm201 wrote:
Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
I said standard is 1.4, but rasing or lowering, I don't care, it's mapper's choice.mm201 wrote:
SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
The problem is, in usual case, it is not.mm201 wrote:
A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations this much?
Topic Starter
Before I answer I want to mentione, that many things - people have said in the last hours - has been allready mentioned in the first post before.
Thanks to you, wmfchris, I don't need to write more. lol
Edit: Ah I forgot, I will answer to the respons of lepidopodus soon. It was my intention to keep it out of this post.
Edit2: I need to mentione it one more time about the 1/4 hit finish case:
Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.
So any discussion about this is meanless. lepidopodus post explains why.
1.) Sander Don + Sakura Hana
Sakura Hana wrote:
Well here are my opinions on your rulesSander-Don wrote:
Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.
General settings
HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
OnosakiHito: Same here. lepidopodus has the same opinion.
OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
Agree Taiko is hard already to hit as it is with OD 5 anyways.
OnosakiHito: Disagree. Dose it make fun or not is a personal view of everyone. If a songs offset is timed perfectly you can even take lvl 10 (without overtaking it) and play it pretty well with a high acc(including having fun). Other importand points are mentioned in the rule before.
NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
Agree Due to the previous reasons about soft sampleset being almost unhearable in Taiko skin.
OnosakiHito: I can just agreed one more time. It's what Sakura Hana said.
1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Agree Nothing else to add.
OnosakiHito: As in the rules mentioned before.
Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Agree Come on, it's just not right at all to have to spam Double notes for any reason whatsoever, i dont even remember other Rythm games like DDR making you spam left/right at the same time at anything bigger than 1/1 or 1/2.
OnosakiHito: If you just mean the single finish I agree.
If you also mean the finish at the end of a stream I Disagree(if not nvm, other people may read it).
I said it before and I say it again: The reason ,,not able to play" or ,,ridiculous to play" is just no argument. People are able to play it. And is it ridiculous or not is also just a personal view, which has in discussions not a high wight(even if the suggester is a known mapper/player). It's more importand how effectiv the rule is. If a mapper dose not like finish notes at a stream, the don't need to use them, right?
2.) Love
Love wrote:
Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk.
OnosakiHito: This counts more as conversion or a hint how to map, but not as a new rule. Any opinion from the others to this?
3.) ziin and all (importand)
ziin wrote:
So is there a problem leaving the option open to the approval crowd? I could probably find a song where the drummer uses both sticks in a sixteenth note stream, which would be the taiko equivalent of what you're denying.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.
Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
OnosakiHito: I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.
It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arrguments agains it:
1.) Using them is extremly loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.
OnosakiHito: Also what lepidopodus said before is absolutly right.Sander-Don wrote:
(...)
They're really should be no discussion about this.
(...)
It's unauthentic
4.)MMzz and Love
After this discussion reached the end in the future, then I want to see these rules as strict official rules, so they will be not forgotten.
I will ask peppy about this soon, too.
About Rokodos guidelines I have told allready seomthing in the first post.
OnosakiHito: As I know it wasn't official in your case.MMzz wrote:
Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?
After this discussion reached the end in the future, then I want to see these rules as strict official rules, so they will be not forgotten.
I will ask peppy about this soon, too.
OnosakiHito: Actually it is not. It was just an example with the MATs and BATs. It makes modding even for new taiko mappers easier.Love wrote:
Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
About Rokodos guidelines I have told allready seomthing in the first post.
5.) omegaflo
omegaflo wrote:
Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)
OnosakiHito: I agree. Marathons should have lower HPs. This will be soon changed, thank's to Sakura Hana.
6.) mm201
mm201 wrote:
Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
OnosakiHito: It would be allready enough - as wmfchris saif at the beginning - if in Taiko just the Normal-sample would be avaible. But since peppy has much to do, I would reather prefer just to restrict this rule, to make soft-samples forbidden.
"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
OnosakiHito: True.
Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
OnosakiHito: Exaclty. As in the first post mentioned.
Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
OnosakiHito: First post explains why they need to be regulated in some cases.
Thanks to you, wmfchris, I don't need to write more. lol
Edit: Ah I forgot, I will answer to the respons of lepidopodus soon. It was my intention to keep it out of this post.
Edit2: I need to mentione it one more time about the 1/4 hit finish case:
Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.
So any discussion about this is meanless. lepidopodus post explains why.
Samplechanges shouldn't be used. I personally like the default skin's soft taiko sampleset. Sounds like a little toy drum. If the entire map is Soft, it should be fine.lepidopodus wrote:
Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us.
The Taiko skin's soft sampleset's volume needs to be fixed, as I said earlier. All the problems you describe would be fixed in this case.
Not forcing anything, just stating my preferences. I would be willing to let you and the other Taiko players have the final say on any rules.lepidopodus wrote:
Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations?
Hey and don't cling to TnT too much, Taiko guys. It will hurt our reasonings.
@mm201: Maybe I'm too sensitive about this.Yeah I can't forget those humiliations from you guys... Though it is more than a year ago.
@mm201: Maybe I'm too sensitive about this.
720 hits per minute means that you can hit the equivalent of 1/1s at 720 bpm, however 1/4s at 200 bpm is 800 hits per minute speed, which is faster than what you can hit, now imagine not tapping 2 keys alternatively, but tapping 2 keys at the same time sustaining this speed, is that what you want? i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.ziin wrote:
I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.
Topic Starter
@lepidopodus: Well that's true. But in some special cases as in the 1/4 hit finish, it should be fine(+ more arguments).
In osu! terms, big hits need to be "singled." Because you're using both your buttons to hit one note.
wmfchris wrote:
Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.
I'm misunderstanding again.
okaySakura Hana wrote:
i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.
^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Could be a guideline, a.k.a can only bypass it if it makes sense and makes the map more funmm201 wrote:
^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Edit: I still think that wouldn't be very readable unless you increase SV, and increasing SV to read some big notes, will decrease the time the players have to read anything else to begin with.
James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.
Ok to be honest we made that rules cause fools that have high position always violates this even we told not to do that several times. Do whatever you want, but we won't even weaken that rule cause we don't think it is right time to do that. (I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)
Ok to be honest we made that rules cause fools that have high position always violates this even we told not to do that several times. Do whatever you want, but we won't even weaken that rule cause we don't think it is right time to do that. (I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)
How can I forget this?James wrote:
its good that you stop because you wont win no matter what
Ok then let's ban the use of any Finish note that has any other note within less than 1/3 near it.
It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.
Please stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.lepidopodus wrote:
James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.
Higher bpm = more difficulty, i thought every rythm game has taught us that. which is why i would like to measure it in beat snaps rather than miliseconds.mm201 wrote:
It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.
However feel free to measure it in miliseconds if that's better for you.
I accept this pending ruling on:OnosakiHito wrote:
I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.
It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arguments again it:
1.) Using them is extremely loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.Sander-Don wrote:
It's unauthentic
ziin wrote:
is this unrankable?arien666 wrote:
大打音
Don't give up; you've almost won!lepidopodus wrote:
(I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)
@ziin: 大打音 is so-called neta-map. That means it is extremely exceptional case. Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.
At least I agree that we need to set exact limit. We had restricted big notes in 1/4 for long time, but there isn't exact limitation so we had certain gray zones. For example, how about 1/4 big notes in HS2.
At least I agree that we need to set exact limit. We had restricted big notes in 1/4 for long time, but there isn't exact limitation so we had certain gray zones. For example, how about 1/4 big notes in HS2.
That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
Topic Starter
Okay, stop please for a moment.
Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.
Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.
- Finish Notes
These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.
The thing is, the lower the BPM, it may be easier to hit the 1/4 big notes, but then the scrolling speed is slower too, making them hard to read, so if it's not one thing is the other, which is why i think most have agreed to No big notes within less than 1/3 in the past.mm201 wrote:
That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
@mm201: But things are more complecated than you think... For example, some Taiko guys even think extremely high HS is ok cause it is used in TnT (See Inner Oni of Rotter Tarmination, Interestingly, this is quite popular map.) while they still think visibility is important.
I don't want to close every doors, even to some concrete rules like this finish or something, but I really don't want to see some guys trying to abuse it. (Yeah that is one reason why we requested some sort of Taiko superviser previously. For now, at least we have some MATs who is also Taiko experts.)
Maybe we can set a basic limitations, then talking about suitability of each cases when it is violated. Of course someone need to be a final decision maker.
@OnosakiHito: Sorry but stating about exceptions right now might not be that nice.
@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time... Z***** insisted 85 while w******* liked 100, etc etc.)
I don't want to close every doors, even to some concrete rules like this finish or something, but I really don't want to see some guys trying to abuse it. (Yeah that is one reason why we requested some sort of Taiko superviser previously. For now, at least we have some MATs who is also Taiko experts.)
Maybe we can set a basic limitations, then talking about suitability of each cases when it is violated. Of course someone need to be a final decision maker.
@OnosakiHito: Sorry but stating about exceptions right now might not be that nice.
@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time... Z***** insisted 85 while w******* liked 100, etc etc.)
Oh i see i didn't know that, my bad i just saw some songs had way faster scrolling in TnT when BPM was higher but i haven't experimented much with Taiko other than Cats - Baby Cat.lepidopodus wrote:
@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed, if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time...)
I've already established that 1/4 bigs are playable in 200 BPM, and hopefully nobody disagrees, so the point is moot. I haven't seen many sub-60 BPM songs in osu so they should be rare enough to count out.mm201 wrote:
That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
Rather than make a cut point at a certain BPM, it should be at the 1/4 mark, since taiko approach rate varies with BPM, and the slider speed should vary very little. Fast BPMs are "too annoying/not authentic" but readable. Slow BPMs are "unreadable due to skin". You'd be left with a range of stuff where it's okay to use, and in that case a flat deny of all 1/4 would be better and easier.
@OnosakiHito
under Exceptions: is xxxdD allowed?
Topic Starter
@ziin: omegaflo asked that, too. But unfortunately hadn't time to add it yet in the second info post for discussing such points.
@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptible.
And for other things, I just can't understand your statement. I already said we don't use word 'approach rate' so I don't know what you are meaning. I never said high BPM is annoying (maybe to some newbies cause speed of notes is quite high) or non-authentic (high BPM --> non-authentic? who said that, seriously?) and we never said low BPM is hard to read. (We have more time to read the notes since speed of note is slow) I don't know why you stated about skin in there. I can't answer these things cause I couldn't understand.
@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
And for other things, I just can't understand your statement. I already said we don't use word 'approach rate' so I don't know what you are meaning. I never said high BPM is annoying (maybe to some newbies cause speed of notes is quite high) or non-authentic (high BPM --> non-authentic? who said that, seriously?) and we never said low BPM is hard to read. (We have more time to read the notes since speed of note is slow) I don't know why you stated about skin in there. I can't answer these things cause I couldn't understand.
@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
As for the fact that it may fit the song is one thing, i dont see the problem with switching from a ddkdkdkdk...something stream to 3 3/4 big dons if there are some enphasis in there, then back to another stream, I havent even seen any point in which there are enphasized notes IN THE MIDDLE OF A STREAM, considering you're still mapping to the same instrument, on any song whatsoever, and switching instruments often in middle of a stream is just... no.
osu! has it's hitsounds to recognize a different sound from another instrument in middle of mapping, in Taiko it's different, your hitsounds are part of your mapping, so it's pretty hard (and maybe annoying) to switch instruments when you're clearly following something else, just to have an enphasis in middle of the stream, i rather you have a small pause then hit the enphasis then go back to your other instrument after said pause.
Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
Edit: if anything use a regular don in middle of katsus to give recognitiion to enphasized notes in a stream, lone enphasis is when you'd normally go with big dons/katsus.
osu! has it's hitsounds to recognize a different sound from another instrument in middle of mapping, in Taiko it's different, your hitsounds are part of your mapping, so it's pretty hard (and maybe annoying) to switch instruments when you're clearly following something else, just to have an enphasis in middle of the stream, i rather you have a small pause then hit the enphasis then go back to your other instrument after said pause.
Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
Edit: if anything use a regular don in middle of katsus to give recognitiion to enphasized notes in a stream, lone enphasis is when you'd normally go with big dons/katsus.
(by the way we're done now; I agree with the no 1/4th rule, just clearing up some stuff)
1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play (hitting the same key with the same finger at a rate of 800 hits per minute is hard). 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read (Big notes are larger than normal and cover up the note behind them, making it easy to not see the note).
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptable.
Sorry I thought you read this:lepidopodus wrote:
approach rate
I can use "speed of notes" but approach rate is the rate (velocity) of approach (something coming closer). I'm not talking about the option in the .osu file.aabc271 wrote:
Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play (hitting the same key with the same finger at a rate of 800 hits per minute is hard). 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read (Big notes are larger than normal and cover up the note behind them, making it easy to not see the note).
I know you hate analogies but I have one last one.lepidopodus wrote:
@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
Check 2nd page of this thread and you will see who questioned it first.Sakura Hana wrote:
Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
The same logic that how wrong is 'I can do that so why you ban it?'. At least I considered as experts in Taiko mapping so my thoughts can be a bit more influencial. There is not exact answer for this, but YOU stated about availability of streamy big notes first and constantly.ziin wrote:
I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.
1/4 streamy big notes are non-authentic, but I never said 'it is wrong cause it's non-authentic'. Some other guys said similar things though.ziin wrote:
1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play. 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read.
No one intervenes how mapper maps, but we are talking about standards for ranked maps. If certain 'mapping style' is simply denied and considered as annoying in the community, why should we accept that as a ranked ones while the community looked down it? Yeah that so-called 'mapping style' can have some supporters, but far from ranked ones until it accepted by the community.ziin wrote:
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
What in the fuck is going on here.
Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules
no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules
no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
Topic Starter
I'm still thinking about this. It's not a bad though. But atm just saying.mm201 wrote:
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
@ziin & lepidopodus:
lepidopodus you know(as ther others do), after poonwing, I'm also a big supporter of finishes at the end of a streams, but ziin, just at the end of a strem: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm still not a supporter your idea.
Also the second one who made this map, was a Taiko jiro mapper and not authentic one. They have other mapping styles as the real authentic so use them as supporter is not helpfull at all. Sorry.
Watching trough suggested points now, to add them into the second list.
Backfire wrote:
What in the fuck is going on here.
Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules
no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
Oh god.
Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯Sander-Don wrote:
Backfire wrote:
What in the fuck is going on here.
Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules
no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
Ok, the end, I make the best rules.You're so annoying.
Oh god.
Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
@sander
==================
back to topic, lepi and sakura spoke all I thought:
- Simply no finishes on streams at this moment. Reasons are as explained by Sakura.
- "Exceptional cases" are complex and hard to clarify here, they could be handled individually.
SPOILER
In the past there's no limit (the 2008 - early2009 era?), and after drumroll restriction scores has been reset once, that was painful for me XD I don't think there'll be a second resetting -w-Sander-Don wrote:
I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
==================
back to topic, lepi and sakura spoke all I thought:
- Simply no finishes on streams at this moment. Reasons are as explained by Sakura.
- "Exceptional cases" are complex and hard to clarify here, they could be handled individually.
No one's insulting anyone, I'm just frustrated with people trying to make taiko unauthentic. Thanks.
Yeah, Mitten told me that, Chris xD
Yeah, Mitten told me that, Chris xD
Ono and me are grate frans.Odaril wrote:
I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
It's cool. I'm not insulting anyone, i'm just saying I make the best rulez ;-;
Topic Starter
Thank you Odaril. Really, thank you. That's what I have normaly wanted. orz
Reference on the rules at the moment, saying what is bad and what not, what could be made better. But mostly hearing just thinks which have been mentioned in the first post allready.
Reference on the rules at the moment, saying what is bad and what not, what could be made better. But mostly hearing just thinks which have been mentioned in the first post allready.
Oh god, I'm out of here.
Have fun screwing up taiko. o/
Have fun screwing up taiko. o/
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
This is your opinion. The idea of this thread is to allow for more flexibility than what only you may want to see in a game.
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
Backfire wrote:
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
New Rule: no finishes because they are super annoyinz [/sarcasm]Backfire wrote:
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
copy those rules then. Find them and translate them for this thread please.Backfire wrote:
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
Uhhhh
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
Topic Starter
We had no rules, just guidelines. And some of them need an update as in the first post mentioned before.Backfire wrote:
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.
Exactly.lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.
Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Ok ok
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
we are done. I agree with you on all the rules except the xxxdD or xxxkD (which I am still unsure of). I was criticizing backfires poor attitude towards this thread.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
@Backfire: To tell the truth, there isn't real 'authentic rule' or something. We just interprete Namco's maps and find some 'rules', then consider them as so-called 'authentic rules'. Yeah that was basis of lots of Taiko maps even in here, but as time goes on, people start trying new things, so now we are a bit far from that. (Hey even Namco tried new things these days...) Currently we are here to state exact rule for us, not authentic things or something, so would you stop talking about authentics in here? Someone will hate that.
I'm saying "rules" because they are just what I have always interpreted the game this way.
If authenticity is all you care about, you should include the 999 combo rule.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
@^: But we abolished that 999 rule with our own hands in previous 'agreement'. Hey and after that, Namco abolished that rule too, lol.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
Authenticity?
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
So as far as i can see:
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
I'll just throw my opinion on these.OnosakiHito wrote:
~Discussions~
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
Leaving beat snap on should be good enough. No need for an unwritten convention most modders will be unaware of.
Topic Starter
~Information~
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
I would greatly prefer the ability to change the playback rate of gameplay while testing the map. This would prove infinitely more useful than any "convention" for modders. Modders need to be looking directly at the gameplay to be able to make suggestions.Dragvon wrote:
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
ddddD should be considered equivalent to DD. Doubles aren't as hard as triples or longer.