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ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

lepidopodus wrote:

Are you trying to enforce rules that isn't from us?... ...Allowing everything cause it is possible to play, lol, is that you want?
I think making rules should be kept to the absolute minimum so that the mapper and player have more freedom in what they make/play. If it's impossible it should not be allowed, and in that case it's obvious and a rule is not needed unless it's been abused in the past. The reverse is not necessarily true, but what I want is an explanation as to why the rule should exist.

In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".

Currently it's:
big notes in 1/4 streams are too hard to read since the big note covers up the next note
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
big notes are too hard to play because you have to hit the same button twice in rapid succession
There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.
this never happens in TnT authentic and is not how TnT is played
I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.

I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.

This also helps me understand taiko better in the hopes that someday I will get better at playing/modding it.

I have a lot less of a problem with guidelines, so if this is a guideline I don't care as much.

lepidopodus wrote:

If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.
In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".
We aren't composing musical thing. Based on songs? Fine. Cling to songs even ignoring enjoyment? No. And lots of player think that is far from enjoyment. Don't forget that one of Taiko player's complains before this amount of Taiko map have been made was existance of 1/4 big notes.

This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.

There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.
I already said that enjoyment should not be overridden by song elements due ti its a game. And you are stating about osu standard again. You can't persuade us by this.

I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.
Yeah statement like 'it's authentic' isn't good, but denying influence of TnT, blargh.

I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.
No you are just stating about other games cause you can't find anything, anyone that supports your opnion in Taiko. Don't trying to enforce that we don't like, it is just trolling to us. If we start think we need to abolosh those restictions, WE will do it. (And we are already talking about weaken it a bit.)

In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
Rules also function as guideline for newbies, so we state those kind of things. There's also some kind of historical reason. I already told you that one of our complain was 1/4 big notes. There was days that BAT denied peculiarity of Taiko, so we need to state how we are different by insist some difference, and that was one thing. You lack these kind of understandings, don't think this as that easy thing.

This is going stupid. I won't accept any statement about big notes or finish notes below here, cause I think this is denial of capability of Taiko community.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
arien666
6,301 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
meow :3

SPOILER

[From http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11577 Taiko diff]


[Test]



I don't know if 1/4 finish stream would be good but



AT LEAST, IT IS NOT EASY TO HIT THEM ON KEYBOARD



In authentic Taiko game, there's no 1/4 finish stream if the pattern goes with normal speed or slow speed(BPM 120+/Inherited x1.0/SV 1.4)
1 song(大打音) is with special reason which is Inherited x1.66/BPM 135/SV 1.4 so it is sightable on user's sight.



But if 1/4 finish stream on general pattern without any speed change or SV adjustment, it just ruins the map.
So, I don't agree with this unban orz
omegaflo
196 posts
Joined March 2009
omegaflo
Why do you think it should be lvl 5? As I understand you say it should be lvl 5 because you... don't want to clear a map with much misses?
Well.... Yes ? =D

Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)

@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)

ziin wrote:

anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
400BPM 1/4 ? I think they are only 4-5 players able to do that srsly, rules can't be watch'd for only these 4-5 >.>

Some good people on this thread, kind of happy to see them =)
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,334 posts
Joined August 2009
aabc271

lepidopodus wrote:

This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.
I think the "approach rates" said by ziin means the speed of notes.
Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
Increasing the speed of notes could improve readability, but it doesn't affect the density of notes.
Because players still have to hit the notes at a certain BPM, no matter how high the speed of notes are

Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.
Their mapping styles could be different from the authentic ( eg hitsounds, note placements ),
but they all follow the most basic elements from the authentic, such as no long 1/8s, no 1/4 finishes on most cases etc.

omegaflo wrote:

No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think so ;)
While I certainly can't (my max is 140 sustained which is why I used that figure), anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.
Explanation
First of all, 1/8 is a double denser than 1/4.
ie 1/4 of 180 BPM = 1/8 of 90 BPM
And tapping 1/4 with single finger = Tapping 1/8 with both hands
ie BPM 180 tap by single hand = BPM 360 tap by both hands
As I know, most average players feel tired when they hit 220+ BPM 1/4, even by using both hands.
Some more extreme players can play ~ 250 BPM 1/4 well, I guess.
And I'm quite sure that nearly nobody can play 400 BPM 1/4, as that is 1/8 of 200 BPM.
Take this map as an example.
The BPM is 185, but still only 2 FCed because the map contains few 1/8s and a 1/3 + 1/8.
The 1/8s in the map is same as 1/4 of BPM 370
And consider that hln (#2) tried for 245 times to get that record, which means that 1/4 of 400 BPM is nearly impossible for all players.
Well, some can do that, but 99% can't
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

aabc271 wrote:

Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.
I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.

omegaflo wrote:

@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)
I think it would be fun. Are all the scores and FCs hacked or something?

arien666 wrote:

大打音
is this unrankable?

Also, what does the life drain do in taiko?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
This thread is a tl;dr so please excuse me if this has already been said:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.

Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.

SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
This one does not sound reasonable for me. All elements, from BG image to slider velocity to pattern arrangements, should fit the song. If you are trying to make big note-related stream more readable by increasing SV, you are creating another elements that does not fit the song, and is not welcomed at all.

In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
We make rules for the future and we would never know whether it would be abused, especially the new comers in mapping taiko stuffs.

In order to convince others that finishes stream is possible, list some maps that real accent which occurs at middle of stream and is appearing in conseccutive manner.

Again, we make maps to enhance the music itself and
Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
We can map maps that fits the song and fun at the same time, but we can't map for those guys enjoying extreme maps.

and about Made of Fire, this point is quite weak when you look at the replay.
No mod full score = 747680
No mod full score without hitting big circles completely ~560000

and in the scoreboard, score concentrates between 580000~620000, that is, players in general can't play nig notes well, and it's unpeasent to play so. (Asked them before when this is ranked lol) Ignoreing big circles, this map is quite easy to FC with.

==========================================
P.S.1
HP life drain = HP deducted per miss
==========================================
P.S.2
I agree to mm201, the only problem is whether big/small mixed streams are necessary.
Last edited by wmfchris , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

mm201 wrote:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us. I personally don't want to set a restriction in here, but I guess some players want it.

mm201 wrote:

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
At least I no longer talked like 'hey it is authentic so we need to accept it!'

mm201 wrote:

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
In usual setting it is considered as annoying. I guess you've seen several times in here already?

mm201 wrote:

Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.
Breaks in Taiko is almost non-functional except showing O/X like thing for now cause lots of elements in breaks of osu standard removed from Taiko. Not that important whether remove it or not to me, to be honest.

mm201 wrote:

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
At least one thing: next note shouldn't be too close, like 1/4 gap.

mm201 wrote:

SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
I said standard is 1.4, but rasing or lowering, I don't care, it's mapper's choice.

mm201 wrote:

A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
The problem is, in usual case, it is not.

Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations this much?
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 6 times in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,852 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Before I answer I want to mentione, that many things - people have said in the last hours - has been allready mentioned in the first post before.

1.) Sander Don + Sakura Hana

Sakura Hana wrote:

Well here are my opinions on your rules

Sander-Don wrote:

Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.

General settings

HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
OnosakiHito: Same here. lepidopodus has the same opinion.

OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
Agree Taiko is hard already to hit as it is with OD 5 anyways.
OnosakiHito: Disagree. Dose it make fun or not is a personal view of everyone. If a songs offset is timed perfectly you can even take lvl 10 (without overtaking it) and play it pretty well with a high acc(including having fun). Other importand points are mentioned in the rule before.

NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
Agree Due to the previous reasons about soft sampleset being almost unhearable in Taiko skin.
OnosakiHito: I can just agreed one more time. It's what Sakura Hana said.

1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Agree Nothing else to add.
OnosakiHito: As in the rules mentioned before.

Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Agree Come on, it's just not right at all to have to spam Double notes for any reason whatsoever, i dont even remember other Rythm games like DDR making you spam left/right at the same time at anything bigger than 1/1 or 1/2.
OnosakiHito: If you just mean the single finish I agree.

If you also mean the finish at the end of a stream I Disagree(if not nvm, other people may read it).
I said it before and I say it again: The reason ,,not able to play" or ,,ridiculous to play" is just no argument. People are able to play it. And is it ridiculous or not is also just a personal view, which has in discussions not a high wight(even if the suggester is a known mapper/player). It's more importand how effectiv the rule is. If a mapper dose not like finish notes at a stream, the don't need to use them, right?
2.) Love

Love wrote:

Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk.
OnosakiHito: This counts more as conversion or a hint how to map, but not as a new rule. Any opinion from the others to this?
3.) ziin and all (importand)

ziin wrote:

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.

Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
So is there a problem leaving the option open to the approval crowd? I could probably find a song where the drummer uses both sticks in a sixteenth note stream, which would be the taiko equivalent of what you're denying.

OnosakiHito: I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.

It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arrguments agains it:
1.) Using them is extremly loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.

Sander-Don wrote:

(...)
They're really should be no discussion about this.
(...)
It's unauthentic
OnosakiHito: Also what lepidopodus said before is absolutly right.
4.)MMzz and Love

MMzz wrote:

Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?
OnosakiHito: As I know it wasn't official in your case.
After this discussion reached the end in the future, then I want to see these rules as strict official rules, so they will be not forgotten.
I will ask peppy about this soon, too.

Love wrote:

Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
OnosakiHito: Actually it is not. It was just an example with the MATs and BATs. It makes modding even for new taiko mappers easier.
About Rokodos guidelines I have told allready seomthing in the first post.
5.) omegaflo

omegaflo wrote:

Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)

OnosakiHito: I agree. Marathons should have lower HPs. This will be soon changed, thank's to Sakura Hana.
6.) mm201

mm201 wrote:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
OnosakiHito: It would be allready enough - as wmfchris saif at the beginning - if in Taiko just the Normal-sample would be avaible. But since peppy has much to do, I would reather prefer just to restrict this rule, to make soft-samples forbidden.

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
OnosakiHito: True.

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
OnosakiHito: Exaclty. As in the first post mentioned.

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
OnosakiHito: First post explains why they need to be regulated in some cases.

Thanks to you, wmfchris, I don't need to write more. lol

Edit: Ah I forgot, I will answer to the respons of lepidopodus soon. It was my intention to keep it out of this post.
Edit2: I need to mentione it one more time about the 1/4 hit finish case:
Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.
So any discussion about this is meanless. lepidopodus post explains why.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

lepidopodus wrote:

Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us.
Samplechanges shouldn't be used. I personally like the default skin's soft taiko sampleset. Sounds like a little toy drum. If the entire map is Soft, it should be fine.
The Taiko skin's soft sampleset's volume needs to be fixed, as I said earlier. All the problems you describe would be fixed in this case.

lepidopodus wrote:

Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations?
Not forcing anything, just stating my preferences. I would be willing to let you and the other Taiko players have the final say on any rules.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Hey and don't cling to TnT too much, Taiko guys. It will hurt our reasonings.

@mm201: Maybe I'm too sensitive about this. Yeah I can't forget those humiliations from you guys... Though it is more than a year ago.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 2 times in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

ziin wrote:

I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.
720 hits per minute means that you can hit the equivalent of 1/1s at 720 bpm, however 1/4s at 200 bpm is 800 hits per minute speed, which is faster than what you can hit, now imagine not tapping 2 keys alternatively, but tapping 2 keys at the same time sustaining this speed, is that what you want? i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,852 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@lepidopodus: Well that's true. But in some special cases as in the 1/4 hit finish, it should be fine(+ more arguments).
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
In osu! terms, big hits need to be "singled." Because you're using both your buttons to hit one note.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

wmfchris wrote:

Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.

I'm misunderstanding again.

Sakura Hana wrote:

i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.
okay
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

mm201 wrote:

^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Could be a guideline, a.k.a can only bypass it if it makes sense and makes the map more fun

Edit: I still think that wouldn't be very readable unless you increase SV, and increasing SV to read some big notes, will decrease the time the players have to read anything else to begin with.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.

Ok to be honest we made that rules cause fools that have high position always violates this even we told not to do that several times. Do whatever you want, but we won't even weaken that rule cause we don't think it is right time to do that. (I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)

James wrote:

its good that you stop because you wont win no matter what
How can I forget this?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Ok then let's ban the use of any Finish note that has any other note within less than 1/3 near it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.

lepidopodus wrote:

James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.
Please stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

mm201 wrote:

It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.
Higher bpm = more difficulty, i thought every rythm game has taught us that. which is why i would like to measure it in beat snaps rather than miliseconds.

However feel free to measure it in miliseconds if that's better for you.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

OnosakiHito wrote:

I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.

It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arguments again it:
1.) Using them is extremely loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.

Sander-Don wrote:

It's unauthentic
I accept this pending ruling on:

ziin wrote:

arien666 wrote:

大打音
is this unrankable?

lepidopodus wrote:

(I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)
Don't give up; you've almost won!
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: 大打音 is so-called neta-map. That means it is extremely exceptional case. Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.

At least I agree that we need to set exact limit. We had restricted big notes in 1/4 for long time, but there isn't exact limitation so we had certain gray zones. For example, how about 1/4 big notes in HS2.
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mm201
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4,495 posts
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mm201
That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,852 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Okay, stop please for a moment.

Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.

  1. Finish Notes
    These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
    Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
    Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]
Things got at the moment really messed up here. I will aske some BAT's to clean the thread if necessary.
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.
Sakura
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7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

mm201 wrote:

That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
The thing is, the lower the BPM, it may be easier to hit the 1/4 big notes, but then the scrolling speed is slower too, making them hard to read, so if it's not one thing is the other, which is why i think most have agreed to No big notes within less than 1/3 in the past.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@mm201: But things are more complecated than you think... For example, some Taiko guys even think extremely high HS is ok cause it is used in TnT (See Inner Oni of Rotter Tarmination, Interestingly, this is quite popular map.) while they still think visibility is important.
I don't want to close every doors, even to some concrete rules like this finish or something, but I really don't want to see some guys trying to abuse it. (Yeah that is one reason why we requested some sort of Taiko superviser previously. For now, at least we have some MATs who is also Taiko experts.)
Maybe we can set a basic limitations, then talking about suitability of each cases when it is violated. Of course someone need to be a final decision maker.

@OnosakiHito: Sorry but stating about exceptions right now might not be that nice.

@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time... Z***** insisted 85 while w******* liked 100, etc etc.)
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Sakura
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Sakura

lepidopodus wrote:

@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed, if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time...)
Oh i see i didn't know that, my bad i just saw some songs had way faster scrolling in TnT when BPM was higher but i haven't experimented much with Taiko other than Cats - Baby Cat.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
I've already established that 1/4 bigs are playable in 200 BPM, and hopefully nobody disagrees, so the point is moot. I haven't seen many sub-60 BPM songs in osu so they should be rare enough to count out.

Rather than make a cut point at a certain BPM, it should be at the 1/4 mark, since taiko approach rate varies with BPM, and the slider speed should vary very little. Fast BPMs are "too annoying/not authentic" but readable. Slow BPMs are "unreadable due to skin". You'd be left with a range of stuff where it's okay to use, and in that case a flat deny of all 1/4 would be better and easier.

@OnosakiHito
under Exceptions: is xxxdD allowed?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@ziin: omegaflo asked that, too. But unfortunately hadn't time to add it yet in the second info post for discussing such points.
lepidopodus
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Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptible.
And for other things, I just can't understand your statement. I already said we don't use word 'approach rate' so I don't know what you are meaning. I never said high BPM is annoying (maybe to some newbies cause speed of notes is quite high) or non-authentic (high BPM --> non-authentic? who said that, seriously?) and we never said low BPM is hard to read. (We have more time to read the notes since speed of note is slow) I don't know why you stated about skin in there. I can't answer these things cause I couldn't understand.

@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
Sakura
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Sakura
As for the fact that it may fit the song is one thing, i dont see the problem with switching from a ddkdkdkdk...something stream to 3 3/4 big dons if there are some enphasis in there, then back to another stream, I havent even seen any point in which there are enphasized notes IN THE MIDDLE OF A STREAM, considering you're still mapping to the same instrument, on any song whatsoever, and switching instruments often in middle of a stream is just... no.

osu! has it's hitsounds to recognize a different sound from another instrument in middle of mapping, in Taiko it's different, your hitsounds are part of your mapping, so it's pretty hard (and maybe annoying) to switch instruments when you're clearly following something else, just to have an enphasis in middle of the stream, i rather you have a small pause then hit the enphasis then go back to your other instrument after said pause.

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.

Edit: if anything use a regular don in middle of katsus to give recognitiion to enphasized notes in a stream, lone enphasis is when you'd normally go with big dons/katsus.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
(by the way we're done now; I agree with the no 1/4th rule, just clearing up some stuff)

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptable.
I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.

lepidopodus wrote:

approach rate
Sorry I thought you read this:

aabc271 wrote:

Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
I can use "speed of notes" but approach rate is the rate (velocity) of approach (something coming closer). I'm not talking about the option in the .osu file.

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play (hitting the same key with the same finger at a rate of 800 hits per minute is hard). 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read (Big notes are larger than normal and cover up the note behind them, making it easy to not see the note).

lepidopodus wrote:

@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
I know you hate analogies but I have one last one.
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
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lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura Hana wrote:

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
Check 2nd page of this thread and you will see who questioned it first.

ziin wrote:

I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.
The same logic that how wrong is 'I can do that so why you ban it?'. At least I considered as experts in Taiko mapping so my thoughts can be a bit more influencial. There is not exact answer for this, but YOU stated about availability of streamy big notes first and constantly.

ziin wrote:

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play. 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read.
1/4 streamy big notes are non-authentic, but I never said 'it is wrong cause it's non-authentic'. Some other guys said similar things though.

ziin wrote:

I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
No one intervenes how mapper maps, but we are talking about standards for ranked maps. If certain 'mapping style' is simply denied and considered as annoying in the community, why should we accept that as a ranked ones while the community looked down it? Yeah that so-called 'mapping style' can have some supporters, but far from ranked ones until it accepted by the community.
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Sander-Don
1,282 posts
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Sander-Don
I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
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OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

mm201 wrote:

I think this needs to be left up to modders.
I'm still thinking about this. It's not a bad though. But atm just saying.

@ziin & lepidopodus:

lepidopodus you know(as ther others do), after poonwing, I'm also a big supporter of finishes at the end of a streams, but ziin, just at the end of a strem: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm still not a supporter your idea.
Also the second one who made this map, was a Taiko jiro mapper and not authentic one. They have other mapping styles as the real authentic so use them as supporter is not helpfull at all. Sorry.

Watching trough suggested points now, to add them into the second list.
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Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Sander-Don wrote:

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shiro
Global Moderator
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Shiro
I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
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wmfchris
@sander
SPOILER

Sander-Don wrote:

I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
In the past there's no limit (the 2008 - early2009 era?), and after drumroll restriction scores has been reset once, that was painful for me XD I don't think there'll be a second resetting -w-

==================

back to topic, lepi and sakura spoke all I thought:
- Simply no finishes on streams at this moment. Reasons are as explained by Sakura.
- "Exceptional cases" are complex and hard to clarify here, they could be handled individually.
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Sander-Don
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Sander-Don
No one's insulting anyone, I'm just frustrated with people trying to make taiko unauthentic. Thanks.
Yeah, Mitten told me that, Chris xD
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Odaril wrote:

I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
Ono and me are grate frans.
It's cool. I'm not insulting anyone, i'm just saying I make the best rulez ;-;
OnosakiHito
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Thank you Odaril. Really, thank you. That's what I have normaly wanted. orz

Reference on the rules at the moment, saying what is bad and what not, what could be made better. But mostly hearing just thinks which have been mentioned in the first post allready.
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Sander-Don
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Sander-Don
Oh god, I'm out of here.
Have fun screwing up taiko. o/
Backfire
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Backfire
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.

When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
peppy
19,323 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Backfire
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Joined February 2010
Backfire
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
Last edited by Backfire , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,323 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
This is your opinion. The idea of this thread is to allow for more flexibility than what only you may want to see in a game.
lepidopodus
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Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
Backfire
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Joined February 2010
Backfire
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?

And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
Last edited by Backfire , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Backfire wrote:

What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Backfire wrote:

I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.

When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
New Rule: no finishes because they are super annoyinz [/sarcasm]

Backfire wrote:

TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
copy those rules then. Find them and translate them for this thread please.
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Uhhhh

HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.

What the heck does #2 mean?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.

I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.

@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

Backfire wrote:

I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
We had no rules, just guidelines. And some of them need an update as in the first post mentioned before.

peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.

lepidopodus wrote:

I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
Exactly.

@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.

Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Backfire
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Joined February 2010
Backfire
Ok ok

Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"

So what now?

They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.

osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?

Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
we are done. I agree with you on all the rules except the xxxdD or xxxkD (which I am still unsure of). I was criticizing backfires poor attitude towards this thread.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@Backfire: To tell the truth, there isn't real 'authentic rule' or something. We just interprete Namco's maps and find some 'rules', then consider them as so-called 'authentic rules'. Yeah that was basis of lots of Taiko maps even in here, but as time goes on, people start trying new things, so now we are a bit far from that. (Hey even Namco tried new things these days...) Currently we are here to state exact rule for us, not authentic things or something, so would you stop talking about authentics in here? Someone will hate that.
Backfire
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Backfire
I'm saying "rules" because they are just what I have always interpreted the game this way.
mm201
osu! Alumni
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mm201
If authenticity is all you care about, you should include the 999 combo rule.

Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
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lepidopodus
@^: But we abolished that 999 rule with our own hands in previous 'agreement'. Hey and after that, Namco abolished that rule too, lol.

@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
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Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Authenticity?
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
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Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
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Sakura
So as far as i can see:
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.

Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.

Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
Dragvon
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2,269 posts
Joined June 2009
Dragvon

OnosakiHito wrote:

~Discussions~
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
I'll just throw my opinion on these.

Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.

So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"



This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
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mm201
Leaving beat snap on should be good enough. No need for an unwritten convention most modders will be unaware of.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
~Information~

Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.

~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
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ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Dragvon wrote:

So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
I would greatly prefer the ability to change the playback rate of gameplay while testing the map. This would prove infinitely more useful than any "convention" for modders. Modders need to be looking directly at the gameplay to be able to make suggestions.
mm201
osu! Alumni
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mm201
ddddD should be considered equivalent to DD. Doubles aren't as hard as triples or longer.
OnosakiHito
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Purple bolded suggestions will be added/edit in the first post.

lepidopodus wrote:

Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
OnosakiHito: I should mentione that easier one can have lower OD.
About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz

Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.

Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
OnosakiHito: Yeah 1.60 is just good for slower BPM(Note: Visual aspect is importand).

Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.

Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.

Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.

Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
OnosakiHito: So we let the mapper decide in this case?

Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
OnosakiHito: I agree.

BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
OnosakiHito: I agree.

Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.

Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.

Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.

Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Onosakihito wrote:

So we let the mapper decide in this case?
In my opinion, yes, we don't need to regulate that. If it spammed, everyone will notice so no need to worry about this.
Originally drumroll was 'hit as much as you want'. It is changed like current ones cause some guys using bad ways to achieve more score via this. (Yeah wmfchris stated about this already.) That is why I said 'Considering original meaning of drum rolls blahblahblah'.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Love wrote:

Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
Oh, I see the DIS OSU! NOT TAIKO OI OI OI wave has already arrived... to be expected.

BACKFIRE'S RULEZ R DA BEST~!~~! (SRS) (Seriously)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Love wrote:

Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
except for 7 OD right?
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
This could be unuseful.

Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
You have some typo here:
- The generel use must be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles too quite.
corrected to:
- The hitsounds set you use must be the Normal, not the Soft one, because Soft make the hitsounds too quiet
This was the most visible (ask someone better in English than me a general correction of the grammar (maybe of the terms too))

Breaks
Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
I would say that it's actually better not allowing them on song shorter than like 2 minutes, avoiding them with less than 3 minutes, and suggesting them on song longer than 5.

Breaks
Break sections are not allowed in songs that are shorter than 120 seconds, and should be avoided of the song is less than 180 seconds long. Neverthless, is suggested to have a some breaks on longer song(like from 300 seconds or so).
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love

ziin wrote:

Love wrote:

Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
except for 7 OD right?
Yup.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Unlocked. Please show respect to each other or the topic will need to be closed for good.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,852 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Thank you mm201.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
spboxer3 reminded me this one:

Video
Video should not be put in the taiko diff because it's partially covered by the taiko bar.
any opinions about this? :3
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
I still don't see the harm in including the video. It's not like you're actually watching the video while playing anyway. You just lose the passive indirect visual appeal if you remove the video... :/
Good mappers would actually make an effort to make a video Taiko-ready but that would be kind of a waste of space
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira

Love wrote:

ziin wrote:

except for 7 OD right?
Yup.
What. It should be generally 8OD or 7OD. The perfect OD is actually 7.5 but we don't have that here
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
I don't care about video. No harm, I guess.

@Zekira: Unfortunatly, consensus does not support OD over 7 yet.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I won't push this at all, because I already know the answer from the consensus and the gist of what they will say, but OD is there to make the map harder. No matter the way you put it, the scores will always be fair, and the likelihood of an SS just goes down, making it that much harder to tie.

As far as video goes, there is a toggle for that. You shouldn't remove something that is easily, easily removed with absolutely no penalty whatsoever and no effect on gameplay other than a minor distraction to those who consider it a distraction.

btw, OD5 is 100 ms range, OD7 is 76 ms, OD8 is 64 ms.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^:
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7
We didn't restricted this at all. I guess I said that this rules also function as guideline? Note density of Taiko maps are usually higher than osu standard, too high OD can be quite annoying cause it increases possibility to get combo break even more than you think. We felt quite uncomfortable, so we stated that. Some newbie mappers do this mistake(usually because they just think concept of OD same as it from osu standard), so we made recommendations. Is that THAT big problem? (Again, If player don't want to place these kind of restrictions anymore, WE Taiko men will abolish them, not by others. Since it is recommendation, if mappers start to prefer higher OD than that, all we have to do is identify our consensus then update it.)
Furthermore We prefer various hard patterns/streams made of don/kat combination of notes rather than raising OD when we are making hard Taiko maps. I guess I can say that concept of 'hard map' itself is a bit different. (Of course there is overlapping features but preferred style is completely different.)
So would you stop reflecting your experiences from being osu standard mapper into here?
Or you just want to throw flame here, huh?

About Video, I don't want to remove that from maps completely, but actually lots of Taiko mappers tend to exclude video from their map. Our consensus about that matter is not so certain right now, so we are talking about it. I don't think we end up restricting this, but if lots of guys seriously want that, we may think about it.
Videos in Taiko map can be a bit distracting cause we need to distinguish color of notes in order to play Taiko properly. Even with dark rail of notes, some guys still think that videos are too distracting when playing Taiko. I personally don't agree with those ideas though. (As you said we can simply turn off videos by setting no video options, yes.)

p.s.: If you say that cause Zekira prefer higher OD than now but I said I prefer lower ones, you should know this: he just like higher OD cause he thinks it is easy too get 良(equivalent to 300 in osu standard gameplay) in here than Taiko no Tatsujin. Yeah he is talking about it based on authentic features. Zekira is one of die-hard supporters of Taiko no Tatsujin authentic style of playing/mapping.
(Whoops, I'm not criticizing you, Zek. I just give some explanation about this. We already talked about that OD things in aquabluu's thread before, right?)

EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.

EDI2:
Maybe we can increase OD recommendation upto 8 if Zekira want it that seriously, but I guess we should find more supporters of him. (Except that ziin guy.)
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

lepidopodus wrote:

EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7
In general the difficulty of taiko diffs depends on pattern difficulties and slider velocity, so if it's really necessary to add extra difficulty based on maps produced, OD8 is sometimes acceptable and considered as exceptional case.
kanpakyin
Global Moderator
4,236 posts
Joined June 2010
kanpakyin

wmfchris wrote:

The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7
In general the difficulty of taiko diffs depends on pattern difficulties and slider velocity, so if it's really necessary to add extra difficulty based on maps produced, OD8 is sometimes acceptable and considered as exceptional case.
Agree,in some case,OD8 works quite well
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
@lepi: "You play standard so your argument is invalid" is faulty logic, just so you know. I think it's worse than citing authenticity.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: Didn't I say WHY that is invalid? At least I wasn't like "it is in osu standard --> it is bad --> so, no", like you said.

Ok let's see previous argument for an example. I admit that I was a bit aggressive tone but the essential is this: "We do not prefer to raise OD to make Taiko map hard. Instead, we are using different ways. So we set certain recommendation in OD to make mappers not abusing this. Your idea is based on experiences in osu standard, so it does not always suit in Taiko."

Whenever I told about differences I always told you guys what exactly is different and how/why it is different, not like "it is different, so no". If I really argue like THAT simple logic you said, my posts had no need to be that long, seriously. If you criticized my attitude I might not be this mad but logic? meh.

ziin criticized some of our basic rules with misunderstandings, and I thought that is due to his lack of experiences as Taiko players, so I said like that. I swear that I didn't explain like the way you said.
(I might be too sensitive about being intervened by osu standard guys, but this is also based on my experiences. osu standard players/mappers generally lack Taiko experience so even I explained about some different features in Taiko several times they end up ignore that, unless I shout like this. *sigh*)

I personally think this is an insult cause you ignored every basis of statement that I've made via miss-simplified it to stupid logic. (Seriously, even if those statements are a bit jerk but you can't deny all my effort like this. I know, I was aggressive, but did I merely attack someone without any reasons or try to have some logical basis? Meeeh, think whatever you want.) I just can't discuss about the matter anymore like this, so I'll just sit and watch for a while. Have fun.

I guess I'll be banned soon cause I'm against high-ranking guys again, so I guess I need to nominate successors of my current work, lol.
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?

OD5 is a trade off. We get less lane, bigger hit box.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
(when I said I won't push this at all, I meant it).

I agree 100% that it's better to make the map harder through other means than changing OD. I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.

Also, my ideas are based on many rhythm games, not just osu standard. Thank you lepidopodus for explaining things for me, it really helps and you do a good job.

MMzz wrote:

Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.
Doing this, removing video, and/or denying storyboards is completely against what peppy wants for osu! (in general). While I agree with you that it makes things easier, this should be a personal and conscious choice of the player to do so. Taiko is already fully skinnable on any map (unless the toggle doesn't work for beatmap specific skins which have taiko components in them?). Since custom skins are skinnable, videos are always removable, and 99% of the time taiko SBs don't work well and are removed in the modding process (or the author doesn't want a storyboard) with the other 1% being a well made storyboard custom fit for taiko, I strongly recommend you keep the rules as simple as possible and don't make rules about pointless stuff that doesn't matter.


Backfire wrote:

I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?
In linear rhythm games, there is a trick to make the game easier. It is called screen shrinking, which cuts off some of the notes which lets you see less notes on the screen at the same time. All you have to do is make the window smaller, or cover up the window with something, for example, the side of the screen. Effectively this increases the notes' rate of approach, making the game overall easier. Having a 25% longer lane would be very similar to slowing the slider speed down 25%.
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Come on, this Overall Difficulty discussion is so meaningless. If it doesn't fit to a map, you can mention it in the modpost. Just setup the guideline, that the overall difficulty should match the difficulty of the song (so if you use high BPM patterns and streams you can't expect an average advanced player to hit within a small window OD8 may provide)

We don't setup the rules to skip the modding. If you think, the OD doesn't fit, mention it in a modpost. And stop crying about the OD, since OD in osu!standard plays pretty different on Taiko (own experience, when I can SS some songs on high OD on standard easily, I can't in Taiko)

And lepi-dono. You don't need to feel insulted. But as far as I see this is going to end in a harsh opinion exchange and less in a well-done discussion with constructive suggestions with a resulting conclusion to which we can agree to.

Stop heating up this stuff or else mm will close this again. Thanks.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
@ziin : get your point so video can be kept for player's fun~

99% of the time taiko SBs don't work well
that reminds me http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31395 a well made taiko SB
Well except ^ I can't recall any other taiko SB except those name tag SB.

maybe we can say that "taiko SB should not be on the taiko bar cause it's useless and distracts players?"
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27509 this is another good taiko SB (and if you hate it you probably hate authentic taiko).

I haven't seen many taiko SBs. I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Just wanted to throw in that osu! Taiko diffs are often longer than TnT originals and contain more complicated patterns, so lower OD makes sense. They also only contain circles (balloon notes and drum rolls don't affect accuracy), so you won't get any "free 300s" like sliders and spinners in Standard osu!
Also, mods. If Taiko maps all had higher OD, Hard Rock would be extremely difficult to play; OD 7 with HR is equal to OD 9.8, and getting an S on a circle-only map consisting mostly of complicated streams is really hard (Even in Standard osu! where you have sliders and spinners, high accuracies with OD 9.8/10 are rare). DT increases the effective OD as well.

Just a few thoughts why a recommendation of an OD around 5 makes sense IMO
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,852 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Dragvon
Previous: viewtopic.php?p=1278235#p1278235
I would suggest another way of spacing:
HakuNoKaemi

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

This could be unuseful.

Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
OnosakiHito: Mainly they are rules, and informations are for mainly clarify why some of the rules are taken while Guidelines/Recommendations are just for a few caes(atm jus one). Calling them a mix could be not taken serious by people, maybe?

(...)

Breaks
Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
I would say that it's actually better not allowing them on song shorter than like 2 minutes, avoiding them with less than 3 minutes, and suggesting them on song longer than 5.

Breaks
Break sections are not allowed in songs that are shorter than 120 seconds, and should be avoided of the song is less than 180 seconds long. Neverthless, is suggested to have a some breaks on longer song(like from 300 seconds or so).
OnosakiHito: I had the same though, but it is meanless to make a strict time in this case because every song is different, what means it could probably happen that in a 2min song allready 3 of these 'no-sound-sections' appear. So I would say the exeption is enough here.
ziin

ziin wrote:

I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.
OnosakiHito: I agree. I could metione somthing like this to make it more understandable. Probably I should bold the ,,recommended", too.
All in one, it seams like everyone has a spreaded opinion about this, but the rule I wrote down is connecting everyones opinion together.
So lets leave it for now how it is, except of the change I want to take you have mentioned before, ziin.
wmfchris

wmfchris wrote:

Video
Video should not be put in the taiko diff because it's partially covered by the taiko bar.
OnosakiHito: lepidopodus mentioned it allready, people can use ,,no-video" in this case, so maybe letting this in the hand of mapper itself is enough?
ziin & at all
SB's:

ziin wrote:

I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.
OnosakiHito: Thought about the SB too, and I got also the same opinion in mind, to let mapper choose this.

But maybe some restirctions should be taken? I can tell you why:
Pulse - as you say - was a really nice SB, but it was pretty meanless to keep it because the scrollbar(where the notes appear) has overlay the SB so it was mostly not seeable. In this case my opinion is that Taiko players should delete such SB's in the diff. because it makes not the SB but lags visible(lol).

To be more accurate: osu! SB's which are not really visible because of the scrollbar or are way too interupting for gameplay(e.g. flashes) are not recommended because of a higher chance to get a lag for something which is meanless in the Taiko diff. itself(The osu! SB has no relation to the Taiko diff.). Making an own Taiko-SB which appears mostly at the bottom of the playfild is more recommended.
Example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27677 (just on the bottom)
Example2: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40077 (on the whole play fild, without flashes)
(Sorry, I can just take my diff's as example, 'cause I dunno others orz)

not approved
I mentioned it in my deleted post before, but I will do it gladly again(personaly I want to see this as rule, you will understand why):

Taiko guest diffs
It is not allowed to replace another mappers Taiko guest diff. with his own, without contacting and discuss/talk about this with him personally.
I don't want to show examples here, but it happened allready. Severel times now(and I'm really angry about this). The newest case isn't even a week old.

It is obviously that we don't want to let - I will say - low qualitative Taiko diffs getting ranked. That's why we are trying to mod them. But replacing a diff. of a newcomer with his own diff. because of the allegedly though the diff. is bad is wrong and should be not tolarated.
1. osu!-mapper which are interested in taiko are getting in panic
2. It dosen't help the mapper-"victim", rather it stops him from continue mapping
3. It makes the mapper community smaller or just didn't let it rise up

About this, I really would like to hear some opinions from you.

Then I have another rule or probably more like a recommendation...?

Taiko lvl's in a Project
Try to avoid making for a project, which have allready a Taiko diff. in it, the same diff. lvl like the previous one. Rather make an easier or if the song allowes an hard one.
I love this to be honest.
Sometimes I see how severel Taiko mappers are interested into a project, how they got all the permission to make a guest diff. and how all of them made an hard Taiko Oni or a pretty similiar one.
In my eyes such prospects should be taken and used!
1. Instead that all mappers are making an Oni, they could talk together about it and decide who is making an Oni, Muzukashii and etc..
2. Instead adding an second similiar diff., the mapper should concider what would be better -> Making a harder or easier diff..
3. If the prospects of adding more diffs by his own is given, the choosen mapper should make by his own an Easy and Hard Taiko diff..

I saw this rarely that such cases happened, rather I'm doing this as only one in the whole community(online based, not offline).

To 1., such cases shouldn't really happen: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29454 - all maps are hard based.
To 2., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37305 - lepidopodus made an Oni allready, so I decided to make a Muzukashii. Or in this case, I decided to make a harder diff. as the previous one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
To 3., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20898 (Muzu+Oni); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32883 (Oni+Taikosaki); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40873 (Muzu+Oni+Taikosaki(comming))

This can be also take in relation with the rule Taiko guest diffs, instead of replacing a diff. just making another one.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Backfire
3,207 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Sorry about my previous "behavior"

Ono, a "rule" to let a mapper change his taiko map should be examined on a case to case basis, not an overall thing.
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if the mapper is gone, or if the mapper refuses to make some changes or reason with the one who wants to replace. It's not that I disagree that these things SHOULDN'T happen, but they do, and we can't do much because it's the mappers choice.
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