This is your opinion. The idea of this thread is to allow for more flexibility than what only you may want to see in a game.
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peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.
@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.
Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
Originally drumroll was 'hit as much as you want'. It is changed like current ones cause some guys using bad ways to achieve more score via this. (Yeah wmfchris stated about this already.) That is why I said 'Considering original meaning of drum rolls blahblahblah'.
@Ono I think you're talking this one:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/26891
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28765
we can see we have two taiko diff of similar star rating and number of notes, but the style is quite different each other.
Ozzy's taiko difficulty in this beatmap has a number of "incorrect" new combos. Now, either the new combos are incorrect, or the hitsounds are incorrect. I'm assuming the new combo is incorrect in this case, and fixing it would essentially be a waste of time because the end result is no change in the taiko difficulty.
If you want to include "recommendations" to help modders mod and mappers map (plus adding more stuff to do for the mapper), go ahead, just know that you may end up fixing stuff that doesn't matter at all.
As I said earlier, it would be better if a way to slow the map down in test mode were implemented (there is a workaround in the next paragraph). Short of that happening, I don't see any of this having the desired effect of making it easier for modders and mappers alike.
Using claps is probably a good idea too, but I'd like to point out that using something like AIBat to bookmark all the whistles and claps in the song would go much further than recommending a hitsound, since you can see what's a don and what's a kat on the timeline. Finally you can use the taiko skin as your default skin if you really want to "hear" it in the editor.
Authenticity does not count
But also because there are more cases with monoton streams or monoton streams with a different endnote(oo...ooooX).
Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm playing with my cousin's account at the moment though, quite legit.
My comments on the rule can be found on the Taiko Playersthread.
Red - I believe it's hard to define a clear cut BPM that 1/4 can be placed, the marginal case is very controversal... and if finish-stream is deemed to be necessary (which is a very rare case), I think SV1.0x of its normal is enough because they don't cover each other.
The best reason to disallow these notes is that it is unauthentic. While you can cite difficulty as a reason, I wouldn't do so, because there should never be a limit to difficulty as long as it is theoretically possible. We can discourage hard maps, but we shouldn't outright ban them.
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I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
Backfire wrote:
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
New Rule: no finishes because they are super annoyinz [/sarcasm]Backfire wrote:
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
copy those rules then. Find them and translate them for this thread please.Backfire wrote:
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
Uhhhh
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
Topic Starter
We had no rules, just guidelines. And some of them need an update as in the first post mentioned before.Backfire wrote:
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.
Exactly.lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.
Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Ok ok
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
we are done. I agree with you on all the rules except the xxxdD or xxxkD (which I am still unsure of). I was criticizing backfires poor attitude towards this thread.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
@Backfire: To tell the truth, there isn't real 'authentic rule' or something. We just interprete Namco's maps and find some 'rules', then consider them as so-called 'authentic rules'. Yeah that was basis of lots of Taiko maps even in here, but as time goes on, people start trying new things, so now we are a bit far from that. (Hey even Namco tried new things these days...) Currently we are here to state exact rule for us, not authentic things or something, so would you stop talking about authentics in here? Someone will hate that.
I'm saying "rules" because they are just what I have always interpreted the game this way.
If authenticity is all you care about, you should include the 999 combo rule.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
@^: But we abolished that 999 rule with our own hands in previous 'agreement'. Hey and after that, Namco abolished that rule too, lol.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
Authenticity?
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
So as far as i can see:
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
I'll just throw my opinion on these.OnosakiHito wrote:
~Discussions~
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
Leaving beat snap on should be good enough. No need for an unwritten convention most modders will be unaware of.
Topic Starter
~Information~
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
I would greatly prefer the ability to change the playback rate of gameplay while testing the map. This would prove infinitely more useful than any "convention" for modders. Modders need to be looking directly at the gameplay to be able to make suggestions.Dragvon wrote:
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
ddddD should be considered equivalent to DD. Doubles aren't as hard as triples or longer.
Topic Starter
Purple bolded suggestions will be added/edit in the first post.
lepidopodus wrote:
Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
OnosakiHito: I should mentione that easier one can have lower OD.
About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz
Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.
Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
OnosakiHito: Yeah 1.60 is just good for slower BPM(Note: Visual aspect is importand).
Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.
Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.
Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.
Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
OnosakiHito: So we let the mapper decide in this case?
Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
OnosakiHito: I agree.
BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
OnosakiHito: I agree.
Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.
Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.
Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.
Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
In my opinion, yes, we don't need to regulate that. If it spammed, everyone will notice so no need to worry about this.Onosakihito wrote:
So we let the mapper decide in this case?
Originally drumroll was 'hit as much as you want'. It is changed like current ones cause some guys using bad ways to achieve more score via this. (Yeah wmfchris stated about this already.) That is why I said 'Considering original meaning of drum rolls blahblahblah'.
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Love wrote:
Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Oh, I see the DIS OSU! NOT TAIKO OI OI OI wave has already arrived... to be expected.
BACKFIRE'S RULEZ R DA BEST~!~~! (SRS) (Seriously)
BACKFIRE'S RULEZ R DA BEST~!~~! (SRS) (Seriously)
except for 7 OD right?Love wrote:
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
This could be unuseful.
Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
You have some typo here:
Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
You have some typo here:
- The generel use must be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles too quite.corrected to:
- The hitsounds set you use must be the Normal, not the Soft one, because Soft make the hitsounds too quietThis was the most visible (ask someone better in English than me a general correction of the grammar (maybe of the terms too))
BreaksI would say that it's actually better not allowing them on song shorter than like 2 minutes, avoiding them with less than 3 minutes, and suggesting them on song longer than 5.
Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
Breaks
Break sections are not allowed in songs that are shorter than 120 seconds, and should be avoided of the song is less than 180 seconds long. Neverthless, is suggested to have a some breaks on longer song(like from 300 seconds or so).
Yup.ziin wrote:
except for 7 OD right?Love wrote:
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Unlocked. Please show respect to each other or the topic will need to be closed for good.
Topic Starter
Thank you mm201.
spboxer3 reminded me this one:
Videoany opinions about this? :3
Video should not be put in the taiko diff because it's partially covered by the taiko bar.
I still don't see the harm in including the video. It's not like you're actually watching the video while playing anyway. You just lose the passive indirect visual appeal if you remove the video... :/
Good mappers would actually make an effort to make a video Taiko-ready but that would be kind of a waste of space
Good mappers would actually make an effort to make a video Taiko-ready but that would be kind of a waste of space
What. It should be generally 8OD or 7OD. The perfect OD is actually 7.5 but we don't have that hereLove wrote:
Yup.ziin wrote:
except for 7 OD right?
I don't care about video. No harm, I guess.
@Zekira: Unfortunatly, consensus does not support OD over 7 yet.
@Zekira: Unfortunatly, consensus does not support OD over 7 yet.
I won't push this at all, because I already know the answer from the consensus and the gist of what they will say, but OD is there to make the map harder. No matter the way you put it, the scores will always be fair, and the likelihood of an SS just goes down, making it that much harder to tie.
As far as video goes, there is a toggle for that. You shouldn't remove something that is easily, easily removed with absolutely no penalty whatsoever and no effect on gameplay other than a minor distraction to those who consider it a distraction.
btw, OD5 is 100 ms range, OD7 is 76 ms, OD8 is 64 ms.
As far as video goes, there is a toggle for that. You shouldn't remove something that is easily, easily removed with absolutely no penalty whatsoever and no effect on gameplay other than a minor distraction to those who consider it a distraction.
btw, OD5 is 100 ms range, OD7 is 76 ms, OD8 is 64 ms.
@^:
Furthermore We prefer various hard patterns/streams made of don/kat combination of notes rather than raising OD when we are making hard Taiko maps. I guess I can say that concept of 'hard map' itself is a bit different. (Of course there is overlapping features but preferred style is completely different.)
So would you stop reflecting your experiences from being osu standard mapper into here?
Or you just want to throw flame here, huh?
About Video, I don't want to remove that from maps completely, but actually lots of Taiko mappers tend to exclude video from their map. Our consensus about that matter is not so certain right now, so we are talking about it. I don't think we end up restricting this, but if lots of guys seriously want that, we may think about it.
Videos in Taiko map can be a bit distracting cause we need to distinguish color of notes in order to play Taiko properly. Even with dark rail of notes, some guys still think that videos are too distracting when playing Taiko. I personally don't agree with those ideas though. (As you said we can simply turn off videos by setting no video options, yes.)
p.s.: If you say that cause Zekira prefer higher OD than now but I said I prefer lower ones, you should know this: he just like higher OD cause he thinks it is easy too get 良(equivalent to 300 in osu standard gameplay) in here than Taiko no Tatsujin. Yeah he is talking about it based on authentic features. Zekira is one of die-hard supporters of Taiko no Tatsujin authentic style of playing/mapping.
(Whoops, I'm not criticizing you, Zek. I just give some explanation about this. We already talked about that OD things in aquabluu's thread before, right?)
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
EDI2:
Maybe we can increase OD recommendation upto 8 if Zekira want it that seriously, but I guess we should find more supporters of him.(Except that ziin guy.)
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7We didn't restricted this at all. I guess I said that this rules also function as guideline? Note density of Taiko maps are usually higher than osu standard, too high OD can be quite annoying cause it increases possibility to get combo break even more than you think. We felt quite uncomfortable, so we stated that. Some newbie mappers do this mistake(usually because they just think concept of OD same as it from osu standard), so we made recommendations. Is that THAT big problem? (Again, If player don't want to place these kind of restrictions anymore, WE Taiko men will abolish them, not by others. Since it is recommendation, if mappers start to prefer higher OD than that, all we have to do is identify our consensus then update it.)
Furthermore We prefer various hard patterns/streams made of don/kat combination of notes rather than raising OD when we are making hard Taiko maps. I guess I can say that concept of 'hard map' itself is a bit different. (Of course there is overlapping features but preferred style is completely different.)
So would you stop reflecting your experiences from being osu standard mapper into here?
About Video, I don't want to remove that from maps completely, but actually lots of Taiko mappers tend to exclude video from their map. Our consensus about that matter is not so certain right now, so we are talking about it. I don't think we end up restricting this, but if lots of guys seriously want that, we may think about it.
Videos in Taiko map can be a bit distracting cause we need to distinguish color of notes in order to play Taiko properly. Even with dark rail of notes, some guys still think that videos are too distracting when playing Taiko. I personally don't agree with those ideas though. (As you said we can simply turn off videos by setting no video options, yes.)
p.s.: If you say that cause Zekira prefer higher OD than now but I said I prefer lower ones, you should know this: he just like higher OD cause he thinks it is easy too get 良(equivalent to 300 in osu standard gameplay) in here than Taiko no Tatsujin. Yeah he is talking about it based on authentic features. Zekira is one of die-hard supporters of Taiko no Tatsujin authentic style of playing/mapping.
(Whoops, I'm not criticizing you, Zek. I just give some explanation about this. We already talked about that OD things in aquabluu's thread before, right?)
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
EDI2:
Maybe we can increase OD recommendation upto 8 if Zekira want it that seriously, but I guess we should find more supporters of him.
Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.lepidopodus wrote:
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7In general the difficulty of taiko diffs depends on pattern difficulties and slider velocity, so if it's really necessary to add extra difficulty based on maps produced, OD8 is sometimes acceptable and considered as exceptional case.
Agree,in some case,OD8 works quite wellwmfchris wrote:
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7In general the difficulty of taiko diffs depends on pattern difficulties and slider velocity, so if it's really necessary to add extra difficulty based on maps produced, OD8 is sometimes acceptable and considered as exceptional case.
@lepi: "You play standard so your argument is invalid" is faulty logic, just so you know. I think it's worse than citing authenticity.
@^: Didn't I say WHY that is invalid? At least I wasn't like "it is in osu standard --> it is bad --> so, no", like you said.
Ok let's see previous argument for an example. I admit that I was a bit aggressive tone but the essential is this: "We do not prefer to raise OD to make Taiko map hard. Instead, we are using different ways. So we set certain recommendation in OD to make mappers not abusing this. Your idea is based on experiences in osu standard, so it does not always suit in Taiko."
Whenever I told about differences I always told you guys what exactly is different and how/why it is different, not like "it is different, so no". If I really argue like THAT simple logic you said, my posts had no need to be that long, seriously. If you criticized my attitude I might not be this mad but logic? meh.
ziin criticized some of our basic rules with misunderstandings, and I thought that is due to his lack of experiences as Taiko players, so I said like that. I swear that I didn't explain like the way you said.
(I might be too sensitive about being intervened by osu standard guys, but this is also based on my experiences. osu standard players/mappers generally lack Taiko experience so even I explained about some different features in Taiko several times they end up ignore that, unless I shout like this. *sigh*)
I personally think this is an insult cause you ignored every basis of statement that I've made via miss-simplified it to stupid logic. (Seriously, even if those statements are a bit jerk but you can't deny all my effort like this. I know, I was aggressive, but did I merely attack someone without any reasons or try to have some logical basis? Meeeh, think whatever you want.) I just can't discuss about the matter anymore like this, so I'll just sit and watch for a while. Have fun.
I guess I'll be banned soon cause I'm against high-ranking guys again, so I guess I need to nominate successors of my current work, lol.
Ok let's see previous argument for an example. I admit that I was a bit aggressive tone but the essential is this: "We do not prefer to raise OD to make Taiko map hard. Instead, we are using different ways. So we set certain recommendation in OD to make mappers not abusing this. Your idea is based on experiences in osu standard, so it does not always suit in Taiko."
Whenever I told about differences I always told you guys what exactly is different and how/why it is different, not like "it is different, so no". If I really argue like THAT simple logic you said, my posts had no need to be that long, seriously. If you criticized my attitude I might not be this mad but logic? meh.
ziin criticized some of our basic rules with misunderstandings, and I thought that is due to his lack of experiences as Taiko players, so I said like that. I swear that I didn't explain like the way you said.
(I might be too sensitive about being intervened by osu standard guys, but this is also based on my experiences. osu standard players/mappers generally lack Taiko experience so even I explained about some different features in Taiko several times they end up ignore that, unless I shout like this. *sigh*)
I personally think this is an insult cause you ignored every basis of statement that I've made via miss-simplified it to stupid logic. (Seriously, even if those statements are a bit jerk but you can't deny all my effort like this. I know, I was aggressive, but did I merely attack someone without any reasons or try to have some logical basis? Meeeh, think whatever you want.) I just can't discuss about the matter anymore like this, so I'll just sit and watch for a while. Have fun.
I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?
OD5 is a trade off. We get less lane, bigger hit box.
OD5 is a trade off. We get less lane, bigger hit box.
(when I said I won't push this at all, I meant it).
I agree 100% that it's better to make the map harder through other means than changing OD. I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.
Also, my ideas are based on many rhythm games, not just osu standard. Thank you lepidopodus for explaining things for me, it really helps and you do a good job.
I agree 100% that it's better to make the map harder through other means than changing OD. I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.
Also, my ideas are based on many rhythm games, not just osu standard. Thank you lepidopodus for explaining things for me, it really helps and you do a good job.
Doing this, removing video, and/or denying storyboards is completely against what peppy wants for osu! (in general). While I agree with you that it makes things easier, this should be a personal and conscious choice of the player to do so. Taiko is already fully skinnable on any map (unless the toggle doesn't work for beatmap specific skins which have taiko components in them?). Since custom skins are skinnable, videos are always removable, and 99% of the time taiko SBs don't work well and are removed in the modding process (or the author doesn't want a storyboard) with the other 1% being a well made storyboard custom fit for taiko, I strongly recommend you keep the rules as simple as possible and don't make rules about pointless stuff that doesn't matter.MMzz wrote:
Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.
In linear rhythm games, there is a trick to make the game easier. It is called screen shrinking, which cuts off some of the notes which lets you see less notes on the screen at the same time. All you have to do is make the window smaller, or cover up the window with something, for example, the side of the screen. Effectively this increases the notes' rate of approach, making the game overall easier. Having a 25% longer lane would be very similar to slowing the slider speed down 25%.Backfire wrote:
I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?
Come on, this Overall Difficulty discussion is so meaningless. If it doesn't fit to a map, you can mention it in the modpost. Just setup the guideline, that the overall difficulty should match the difficulty of the song (so if you use high BPM patterns and streams you can't expect an average advanced player to hit within a small window OD8 may provide)
We don't setup the rules to skip the modding. If you think, the OD doesn't fit, mention it in a modpost. And stop crying about the OD, since OD in osu!standard plays pretty different on Taiko (own experience, when I can SS some songs on high OD on standard easily, I can't in Taiko)
And lepi-dono. You don't need to feel insulted. But as far as I see this is going to end in a harsh opinion exchange and less in a well-done discussion with constructive suggestions with a resulting conclusion to which we can agree to.
Stop heating up this stuff or else mm will close this again. Thanks.
We don't setup the rules to skip the modding. If you think, the OD doesn't fit, mention it in a modpost. And stop crying about the OD, since OD in osu!standard plays pretty different on Taiko (own experience, when I can SS some songs on high OD on standard easily, I can't in Taiko)
And lepi-dono. You don't need to feel insulted. But as far as I see this is going to end in a harsh opinion exchange and less in a well-done discussion with constructive suggestions with a resulting conclusion to which we can agree to.
Stop heating up this stuff or else mm will close this again. Thanks.
@ziin : get your point so video can be kept for player's fun~
Well except ^ I can't recall any other taiko SB except those name tag SB.
maybe we can say that "taiko SB should not be on the taiko bar cause it's useless and distracts players?"
99% of the time taiko SBs don't work wellthat reminds me http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31395 a well made taiko SB
Well except ^ I can't recall any other taiko SB except those name tag SB.
maybe we can say that "taiko SB should not be on the taiko bar cause it's useless and distracts players?"
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27509 this is another good taiko SB (and if you hate it you probably hate authentic taiko).
I haven't seen many taiko SBs. I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.
I haven't seen many taiko SBs. I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.
Just wanted to throw in that osu! Taiko diffs are often longer than TnT originals and contain more complicated patterns, so lower OD makes sense. They also only contain circles (balloon notes and drum rolls don't affect accuracy), so you won't get any "free 300s" like sliders and spinners in Standard osu!
Also, mods. If Taiko maps all had higher OD, Hard Rock would be extremely difficult to play; OD 7 with HR is equal to OD 9.8, and getting an S on a circle-only map consisting mostly of complicated streams is really hard (Even in Standard osu! where you have sliders and spinners, high accuracies with OD 9.8/10 are rare). DT increases the effective OD as well.
Just a few thoughts why a recommendation of an OD around 5 makes sense IMO
Also, mods. If Taiko maps all had higher OD, Hard Rock would be extremely difficult to play; OD 7 with HR is equal to OD 9.8, and getting an S on a circle-only map consisting mostly of complicated streams is really hard (Even in Standard osu! where you have sliders and spinners, high accuracies with OD 9.8/10 are rare). DT increases the effective OD as well.
Just a few thoughts why a recommendation of an OD around 5 makes sense IMO
Topic Starter
HakuNoKaemi
HakuNoKaemi wrote:
This could be unuseful.
Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
OnosakiHito: Mainly they are rules, and informations are for mainly clarify why some of the rules are taken while Guidelines/Recommendations are just for a few caes(atm jus one). Calling them a mix could be not taken serious by people, maybe?
(...)BreaksI would say that it's actually better not allowing them on song shorter than like 2 minutes, avoiding them with less than 3 minutes, and suggesting them on song longer than 5.
Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.BreaksOnosakiHito: I had the same though, but it is meanless to make a strict time in this case because every song is different, what means it could probably happen that in a 2min song allready 3 of these 'no-sound-sections' appear. So I would say the exeption is enough here.
Break sections are not allowed in songs that are shorter than 120 seconds, and should be avoided of the song is less than 180 seconds long. Neverthless, is suggested to have a some breaks on longer song(like from 300 seconds or so).
ziin
All in one, it seams like everyone has a spreaded opinion about this, but the rule I wrote down is connecting everyones opinion together.
So lets leave it for now how it is, except of the change I want to take you have mentioned before, ziin.
OnosakiHito: I agree. I could metione somthing like this to make it more understandable. Probably I should bold the ,,recommended", too.ziin wrote:
I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.
All in one, it seams like everyone has a spreaded opinion about this, but the rule I wrote down is connecting everyones opinion together.
So lets leave it for now how it is, except of the change I want to take you have mentioned before, ziin.
wmfchris
OnosakiHito: lepidopodus mentioned it allready, people can use ,,no-video" in this case, so maybe letting this in the hand of mapper itself is enough?wmfchris wrote:
Video
Video should not be put in the taiko diff because it's partially covered by the taiko bar.
ziin & at all
SB's:
But maybe some restirctions should be taken? I can tell you why:
Pulse - as you say - was a really nice SB, but it was pretty meanless to keep it because the scrollbar(where the notes appear) has overlay the SB so it was mostly not seeable. In this case my opinion is that Taiko players should delete such SB's in the diff. because it makes not the SB but lags visible(lol).
To be more accurate: osu! SB's which are not really visible because of the scrollbar or are way too interupting for gameplay(e.g. flashes) are not recommended because of a higher chance to get a lag for something which is meanless in the Taiko diff. itself(The osu! SB has no relation to the Taiko diff.). Making an own Taiko-SB which appears mostly at the bottom of the playfild is more recommended.
Example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27677 (just on the bottom)
Example2: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40077 (on the whole play fild, without flashes)
(Sorry, I can just take my diff's as example, 'cause I dunno others orz)
OnosakiHito: Thought about the SB too, and I got also the same opinion in mind, to let mapper choose this.ziin wrote:
I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.
But maybe some restirctions should be taken? I can tell you why:
Pulse - as you say - was a really nice SB, but it was pretty meanless to keep it because the scrollbar(where the notes appear) has overlay the SB so it was mostly not seeable. In this case my opinion is that Taiko players should delete such SB's in the diff. because it makes not the SB but lags visible(lol).
To be more accurate: osu! SB's which are not really visible because of the scrollbar or are way too interupting for gameplay(e.g. flashes) are not recommended because of a higher chance to get a lag for something which is meanless in the Taiko diff. itself(The osu! SB has no relation to the Taiko diff.). Making an own Taiko-SB which appears mostly at the bottom of the playfild is more recommended.
Example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27677 (just on the bottom)
Example2: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40077 (on the whole play fild, without flashes)
(Sorry, I can just take my diff's as example, 'cause I dunno others orz)
not approved
I mentioned it in my deleted post before, but I will do it gladly again(personaly I want to see this as rule, you will understand why):
It is obviously that we don't want to let - I will say - low qualitative Taiko diffs getting ranked. That's why we are trying to mod them. But replacing a diff. of a newcomer with his own diff. because of the allegedly though the diff. is bad is wrong and should be not tolarated.
1. osu!-mapper which are interested in taiko are getting in panic
2. It dosen't help the mapper-"victim", rather it stops him from continue mapping
3. It makes the mapper community smaller or just didn't let it rise up
About this, I really would like to hear some opinions from you.
Then I have another rule or probably more like a recommendation...?
Sometimes I see how severel Taiko mappers are interested into a project, how they got all the permission to make a guest diff. and how all of them made an hard Taiko Oni or a pretty similiar one.
In my eyes such prospects should be taken and used!
1. Instead that all mappers are making an Oni, they could talk together about it and decide who is making an Oni, Muzukashii and etc..
2. Instead adding an second similiar diff., the mapper should concider what would be better -> Making a harder or easier diff..
3. If the prospects of adding more diffs by his own is given, the choosen mapper should make by his own an Easy and Hard Taiko diff..
I saw this rarely that such cases happened, rather I'm doing this as only one in the whole community(online based, not offline).
To 1., such cases shouldn't really happen: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29454 - all maps are hard based.
To 2., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37305 - lepidopodus made an Oni allready, so I decided to make a Muzukashii. Or in this case, I decided to make a harder diff. as the previous one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
To 3., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20898 (Muzu+Oni); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32883 (Oni+Taikosaki); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40873 (Muzu+Oni+Taikosaki(comming))
This can be also take in relation with the rule Taiko guest diffs, instead of replacing a diff. just making another one.
Taiko guest diffs
It is not allowed to replace another mappers Taiko guest diff. with his own, without contacting and discuss/talk about this with him personally.
I don't want to show examples here, but it happened allready. Severel times now(and I'm really angry about this). The newest case isn't even a week old.It is not allowed to replace another mappers Taiko guest diff. with his own, without contacting and discuss/talk about this with him personally.
It is obviously that we don't want to let - I will say - low qualitative Taiko diffs getting ranked. That's why we are trying to mod them. But replacing a diff. of a newcomer with his own diff. because of the allegedly though the diff. is bad is wrong and should be not tolarated.
1. osu!-mapper which are interested in taiko are getting in panic
2. It dosen't help the mapper-"victim", rather it stops him from continue mapping
3. It makes the mapper community smaller or just didn't let it rise up
About this, I really would like to hear some opinions from you.
Then I have another rule or probably more like a recommendation...?
Taiko lvl's in a Project
Try to avoid making for a project, which have allready a Taiko diff. in it, the same diff. lvl like the previous one. Rather make an easier or if the song allowes an hard one.
I love this to be honest.Try to avoid making for a project, which have allready a Taiko diff. in it, the same diff. lvl like the previous one. Rather make an easier or if the song allowes an hard one.
Sometimes I see how severel Taiko mappers are interested into a project, how they got all the permission to make a guest diff. and how all of them made an hard Taiko Oni or a pretty similiar one.
In my eyes such prospects should be taken and used!
1. Instead that all mappers are making an Oni, they could talk together about it and decide who is making an Oni, Muzukashii and etc..
2. Instead adding an second similiar diff., the mapper should concider what would be better -> Making a harder or easier diff..
3. If the prospects of adding more diffs by his own is given, the choosen mapper should make by his own an Easy and Hard Taiko diff..
I saw this rarely that such cases happened, rather I'm doing this as only one in the whole community(online based, not offline).
To 1., such cases shouldn't really happen: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29454 - all maps are hard based.
To 2., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37305 - lepidopodus made an Oni allready, so I decided to make a Muzukashii. Or in this case, I decided to make a harder diff. as the previous one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28705
To 3., http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20898 (Muzu+Oni); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/32883 (Oni+Taikosaki); http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40873 (Muzu+Oni+Taikosaki(comming))
This can be also take in relation with the rule Taiko guest diffs, instead of replacing a diff. just making another one.
Sorry about my previous "behavior"
Ono, a "rule" to let a mapper change his taiko map should be examined on a case to case basis, not an overall thing.
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if the mapper is gone, or if the mapper refuses to make some changes or reason with the one who wants to replace. It's not that I disagree that these things SHOULDN'T happen, but they do, and we can't do much because it's the mappers choice.
Ono, a "rule" to let a mapper change his taiko map should be examined on a case to case basis, not an overall thing.
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if the mapper is gone, or if the mapper refuses to make some changes or reason with the one who wants to replace. It's not that I disagree that these things SHOULDN'T happen, but they do, and we can't do much because it's the mappers choice.
This makes me wonder, [...] . It's a guest diff, which means it's up to the mapset organizer on whether to change it or not. Herp.OnosakiHito wrote:
Taiko guest diffsI don't want to show examples here, but it happened allready. Severel times now(and I'm really angry about this). The newest case isn't even a week old.
It is not allowed to replace another mappers Taiko guest diff. with his own, without contacting and discuss/talk about this with him personally.
Topic Starter
@Backfire: I agree.
But:
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if...
...the mapper is gone, or if... - this is a special case. It is obviously that a project leader may delete his diff. and take another one.
the mapper refuses to make some changes or... - sure, but deciding it alone...? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31419 - In this case(okay collab) all collab members have been asked what they think about one weird part and also other modders and players too. In a group it has been decided.
...reason with the one who wants to replace. - one... that's too less.
My point is more about the rush somone is doing because of a diff..
Isn't it also enough to suggest someone to remap it and give reasons why, instead just to say for example ,,overmapped!/terrible!/..."?
If the one don't want to remap it, other people can be asked for this case and also the Taiko-mapper itself.
But:
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if...
...the mapper is gone, or if... - this is a special case. It is obviously that a project leader may delete his diff. and take another one.
the mapper refuses to make some changes or... - sure, but deciding it alone...? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31419 - In this case(okay collab) all collab members have been asked what they think about one weird part and also other modders and players too. In a group it has been decided.
...reason with the one who wants to replace. - one... that's too less.
My point is more about the rush somone is doing because of a diff..
Isn't it also enough to suggest someone to remap it and give reasons why, instead just to say for example ,,overmapped!/terrible!/..."?
If the one don't want to remap it, other people can be asked for this case and also the Taiko-mapper itself.
It's incredibly rude to change a guest mapper's difficulty without permission or to remove the guest difficulty without notifying them first.
being rude =/= rule.
being rude =/= rule.
In the case of pulse, I was going to move it down so it wasn't obstructed by the taiko bar, which wouldn't have been hard to do at all.OnosakiHito wrote:
Pulse - as you say - was a really nice SB, but it was pretty meanless to keep it because the scrollbar(where the notes appear) has overlay the SB so it was mostly not seeable.
though I think there's something that rule rules, while moral rules the rest. We don't need to put such "rules" there though it's trivially correct.ziin wrote:
It's incredibly rude to change a guest mapper's difficulty without permission or to remove the guest difficulty without notifying them first.
@Ono I think you're talking this one:
avoid containing two taiko diff of similar difficulty in the same mapset.In this case I think it's better to leave for mapper's own decision, every diff could hv its own difficulties and experience bringing to players, like
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/26891
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28765
we can see we have two taiko diff of similar star rating and number of notes, but the style is quite different each other.
That rule regarding guest mapper's diff is more of a general rule than a Taiko specific rule, as such it has no place in this thread, if you want to discuss something like that make a new thread regarding guest diffs, although i have to say... it's more of a moral or common sense thing, plus if you edit someone's diff without their permission they'll know better about making difficulties for you next time.
Hey guys, I just moved a few posts to prevent more off topic, try to focus on the matter and behave please.
Topic Starter
@ziin, Sakura, wmf: Mh, I think you are right. I agree with your views.
@Gonzvlo: I see, thank you.
So, let's discuss about the allready mentioned points, for now:
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Point one: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.
Point two: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.
In the recommended section we have allready one point: Taiko Custom colors.
Recommended =/= rules. It is just a reommendation, but to mentione such points is maybe not bad.
@Gonzvlo: I see, thank you.
So, let's discuss about the allready mentioned points, for now:
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Point one: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.
Point two: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.
In the recommended section we have allready one point: Taiko Custom colors.
Recommended =/= rules. It is just a reommendation, but to mentione such points is maybe not bad.
I think this, and the "reasonable hitobject placement" are great examples of "ways to increase the number of errors in a map". Not only do you have to properly hitsound things, but you have to make sure it's the right color and put in the correct place in the play area.OnosakiHito wrote:
- Custom combo colours
Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overridden in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
Ozzy's taiko difficulty in this beatmap has a number of "incorrect" new combos. Now, either the new combos are incorrect, or the hitsounds are incorrect. I'm assuming the new combo is incorrect in this case, and fixing it would essentially be a waste of time because the end result is no change in the taiko difficulty.
If you want to include "recommendations" to help modders mod and mappers map (plus adding more stuff to do for the mapper), go ahead, just know that you may end up fixing stuff that doesn't matter at all.
As I said earlier, it would be better if a way to slow the map down in test mode were implemented (there is a workaround in the next paragraph). Short of that happening, I don't see any of this having the desired effect of making it easier for modders and mappers alike.
Using claps is probably a good idea too, but I'd like to point out that using something like AIBat to bookmark all the whistles and claps in the song would go much further than recommending a hitsound, since you can see what's a don and what's a kat on the timeline. Finally you can use the taiko skin as your default skin if you really want to "hear" it in the editor.
I would rather program the editor to show D/K in some way. Using New Combos for this purpose would make adding Tag support difficult.
Instead, I would suggest that NCs be used in the osu! way.
Instead, I would suggest that NCs be used in the osu! way.
Topic Starter
@ziin: Well, I think this depends also on how tidy someone in the editor is?
@mm201: wmfchris, mentioned this once before. But yes, this would be really good. Probably more like awesome.
@mm201: wmfchris, mentioned this once before. But yes, this would be really good. Probably more like awesome.
Topic Starter
I had no time in the last two weeks to post something, so I will start again. (Pretty dead here, huh?)
Anyway, let's talk about the points we allready have:
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Many people have wish that, so let's take it as recommendation for now. Or maybe mm201 would do the same as for the custom coulours...?
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
We could add this into recommendation, too since it is not a must, just a help for modders? Seams okay?
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
As you know, I am for stream-finishes if it is a long stream(see the rules - first post) and the question from omegaflo is good.
I think monoton streams should be also allowed because we don't need to restrict so much, since we want to keep the space for free mapping, too.
So or so, monoton streams will be used if they are usefull. And for new people we have the experienced mappers/modders who can help them.
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
For an answer, I need to know what HS2 means, sorry. orz
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention this once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.
Please tell me what you think about it. This is also dedicated to the Taiko-People. urg
Anyway, let's talk about the points we allready have:
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Many people have wish that, so let's take it as recommendation for now. Or maybe mm201 would do the same as for the custom coulours...?
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
We could add this into recommendation, too since it is not a must, just a help for modders? Seams okay?
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
As you know, I am for stream-finishes if it is a long stream(see the rules - first post) and the question from omegaflo is good.
I think monoton streams should be also allowed because we don't need to restrict so much, since we want to keep the space for free mapping, too.
So or so, monoton streams will be used if they are usefull. And for new people we have the experienced mappers/modders who can help them.
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention this once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.
Please tell me what you think about it. This is also dedicated to the Taiko-People. urg
HS is just for multiplier to standard note scroll speed. For example, HS2 = x2.0 if basic SV is 1.4. Japanese Taiko guys are using the word HS frequently, so some of us prefer that word too, I guess.
Topic Starter
Ah, I see. Yes, aabc told me that some time ago. Now I remember. Thank you, lepidopodus.
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention the ,,big notes on streams" once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention the ,,big notes on streams" once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.
should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.
Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
I don't see the relationship between limiting finishes and the multipliers of timing sections (I rather not to use that specific terms since many may not know, and I think it's the same for the official rules to avoid that term), that reminds me the ending of Black Rose Apostle. The appropiateness of putting finishes refers to the song, not be anything else.
Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.
Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
I don't see the relationship between limiting finishes and the multipliers of timing sections (I rather not to use that specific terms since many may not know, and I think it's the same for the official rules to avoid that term), that reminds me the ending of Black Rose Apostle. The appropiateness of putting finishes refers to the song, not be anything else.
Question, how exactly does switching to something other than this affects gameplay?Rules wrote:
The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 should be used
Authenticity does not count
That's why it's a guideline. I wish taiko speed wasn't variable.
However since it is variable, SV 1.4 does a pretty good job at reading 4-5 notes ahead, much like what a standard osu difficulty should attempt to do when choosing AR.
However since it is variable, SV 1.4 does a pretty good job at reading 4-5 notes ahead, much like what a standard osu difficulty should attempt to do when choosing AR.
SV 1.4 is the SV that 1/4 streams overlap slightly each other, while SV1.6 is that 1/4 streams just separates, but overlap slightly for 1/6, and they are best for players to read the notes.
and, if SV are set in other values, it affect difficulty of notes reading. low SV cause serious overlapping, and high SV greatly reduces reaction time.
and, if SV are set in other values, it affect difficulty of notes reading. low SV cause serious overlapping, and high SV greatly reduces reaction time.
Topic Starter
I would say that just monoton stream should be permitted because, I'm worred that cases like kkddK could be abused or discussed about why for example xoxoX is not allowed.wmfchris wrote:
should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.
But also because there are more cases with monoton streams or monoton streams with a different endnote(oo...ooooX).
Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
...now that I look at it, I'm fine with the SVs being played around 1.4, not being exactly 1.4...
...my main problem now is that the scroll length is still seriously short. It's around a whole stanza short on a 1.4SV played map compared to the original game. This basically makes things that are normally a challenge to become ridiculously difficult on osu!Taiko, and I mistakenly fired shots at people's SV choices before. I pointed out this scroll length disparity forever ago but I don't know where it just went... I know peppy replied about it one time but I forgot where it went
...my main problem now is that the scroll length is still seriously short. It's around a whole stanza short on a 1.4SV played map compared to the original game. This basically makes things that are normally a challenge to become ridiculously difficult on osu!Taiko, and I mistakenly fired shots at people's SV choices before. I pointed out this scroll length disparity forever ago but I don't know where it just went... I know peppy replied about it one time but I forgot where it went
Topic Starter
Made new changes to the rules: viewtopic.php?p=1275325#p1275325
Probably it's something we need to wait for and discuss more about it?
(finding this thread would be a beginning lol)
Edit: Maybe it would be not a bad idea to change ,,recommendations" to guidelines?
So we could handle this easier and most thinks would be more clear.
Rules -> everything in this section need to be followed
Guidelines -> everything in this section don't need to be followed, it is just a recommendation.
@Zekira: Well, it's right what you said, but it ende up with my thoughs in this thread. It was something like: This would be a huge gameplay changing in Taiko-osu!, it's like the preliminary stage of reseting the scores from players. Also BG's/SB's would be messed up and maybe much more.wmfchris wrote:
should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.
OnosakiHito: I wrote following down for now ,,Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long not complex 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.".
It is clear now that streams like kkdkddkD are not allowed. But to say monoton streams is also wrong, since xxxxoooX seams to be still okay.
Maybe saying something like ,,max pattern diff. in a stream is xxxxoooO/xxxxoooX". I don't know how this is called, 4-plets in a stream? lol
Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
I don't see the relationship between limiting finishes and the multipliers of timing sections (I rather not to use that specific terms since many may not know, and I think it's the same for the official rules to avoid that term), that reminds me the ending of Black Rose Apostle. The appropiateness of putting finishes refers to the song, not be anything else.
OnosakiHito: I will add this soon.
Probably it's something we need to wait for and discuss more about it?
(finding this thread would be a beginning lol)
Edit: Maybe it would be not a bad idea to change ,,recommendations" to guidelines?
So we could handle this easier and most thinks would be more clear.
Rules -> everything in this section need to be followed
Guidelines -> everything in this section don't need to be followed, it is just a recommendation.
Rules: you may not break these ever
Guidelines: under special circumstances these may be broken
Recommendations: these are recommended but not fully necessary
Guidelines: under special circumstances these may be broken
Recommendations: these are recommended but not fully necessary
Topic Starter
This sounds better, yes. Thank you.
Editing first post at the moment and talking with people in the #twc chanel about the rules.
Editing first post at the moment and talking with people in the #twc chanel about the rules.
Topic Starter
New guideline added - I'm pleased to receive gramma improvements lol
- Diff. Name
Don't use any custom or no-sense diff. names because, people will barely find those kind of diffs, also they don't show the lvl of the Taiko diff..
The normal and recommended use of a diff. name is in most cases XXX's Taiko or XXX's Taiko Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni/Inner Oni/Ura Oni.
Under certain circumstances - depends on modders/communitys decision -(e.g. project-leader wants unified diff- names), the diff. name may have a slight change.
It is also allowed to use a personal custom-name which is used permanently, such as for example: ,,Taikosaki(OnosakiHito), Taikocalypse(Backfire) or Taikolor(Mr Colour)".
TAIKOCALYPSE MASTER RACE
Topic Starter
New recommendation added
I will check the rules one more time, after that they should be more like finished. I will announce this in some Taiko threads.
- Reasonable hitobject-placement
Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
I will check the rules one more time, after that they should be more like finished. I will announce this in some Taiko threads.
Is "Xaiko" allowed in the personal custom-name cause? :/OnosakiHito wrote:
New guideline added - I'm pleased to receive gramma improvements lol
- Diff. Name
Don't use any custom or no-sense diff. names because, people will barely find those kind of diffs, also they don't show the lvl of the Taiko diff..
The normal and recommended use of a diff. name is in most cases XXX's Taiko or XXX's Taiko Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni/Inner Oni/Ura Oni.
Under certain circumstances - depends on modders/communitys decision -(e.g. project-leader wants unified diff- names), the diff. name may have a slight change.
It is also allowed to use a personal custom-name which is used permanently, such as for example: ,,Taikosaki(OnosakiHito), Taikocalypse(Backfire) or Taikolor(Mr Colour)".
Topic Starter
@^: "Xaiko" would be allowed in the momentan guideline.
Only question you should ask your self is: ,,Dose some one use it allready?" and ,,When do I want to use it?"
Personaly, I would recommend to use such names just for your hardest diffs because we still want to keep e.g. diff-names like ,,Taiko Oni", but it's your choice at all.
So or so I need to talk with some people about this.
Edit: Oh, found today a Xaiko diff.. lol
Only question you should ask your self is: ,,Dose some one use it allready?" and ,,When do I want to use it?"
Personaly, I would recommend to use such names just for your hardest diffs because we still want to keep e.g. diff-names like ,,Taiko Oni", but it's your choice at all.
So or so I need to talk with some people about this.
Edit: Oh, found today a Xaiko diff.. lol
I'm just popping in to say that taiko specific guest difficulties are still guest difficulties. Why should the naming of such be treated any differently than Mapper name's <insert taiko difficulty name here>? Name claiming has never been an issue before, even in standard, so why should it become an issue with taiko specifics?
SPOILER
OnosakiHito wrote:
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Taiko Rankability Rules and Guidelines
[notice]Rules - You may not break these everI haven't seen many taiko only maps include such rest moments. Will this be something people will have to get used to? Because I thought that taiko maps weren't supposed to have breaks. By definition this would be a break? Or is that rule changing? Please be kind enough to give me a flatout answer.
- Slider Velocity
The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 must be used(1.40 is the standard slider velocity that is recommended to be used in taiko specific maps while 1.60 is the standart slider velocity for slower BPM songs). Also, keep the original overall/generel SV.
Exeptions: Lower slider velocitys are allowed to be used in songs with a really high BPM above 260~280. Recommended SV is 1.20 for this. It also depends on how readable the notes are, in their current position.
Maps with a BPM about 300 should be mapped just with 1/2 notes and a SV of 1.20 or smaller. Another way is also to take half of the BPM.
Example: BPM 145: Kozato snow - Rengetsu Ouka - BPM 270: Yousei Teikoku - Sacrifice I think this is better suited as a guideline. I've seen taiko play well at a multitude of slider velocities. It also becomes more or less lenient the higher/lower the BPM is, so this rule cannot apply to all cases. I think taiko authentic maps mostly use 1.4 or 1.6 , but there are reasons to go lower or higher for non-authentic maps.
- Rest Moments
Every specific Taiko diff. need to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.
In regards to rest moments, one could consider a "rest" as lasting for as long as a bar. In osu!stream, there are no breaks, so there can be sections of one two bars to give the player a rest. The suggested gap of a beat isn't this severe and would definitely not be long enough to count as a break. Basically, if the editor doesn't insert a break automatically, then there is no break and therefore no problem.
rests are relative concept depends on the song. Some song trivially don't fit with breaks and not even a short one. Make some reasonable pace variation is enough.
Topic Starter
@XK: Oh you understand me wrong. I just mean you need to check if anyone else had such a name before, because otherwise your diff could be asociated with the other guy.
@TheVileOne:
- Well, rather want to clear that now as to have problems with names in the future. Some people tend more and more to use unecessary names. Also in osu! it is still easier to see what for a diff this is because of the star lvl for example. In Taiko it's not that case.
- I agree to Slider Velocity.
- Oh? I don't mean breaks, I mean little rest moments. Those are used in every Taiko map.
This one for example not: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30730 That's not good for the stamina of players and is a generel agreedment here.
@D33d:
Same what I said to TheVileOne. It's just considered as 1/1 or 1/2, moments were a song has no mainsounds/etc..
wmfchris has explained it better I guess.
@TheVileOne:
- Well, rather want to clear that now as to have problems with names in the future. Some people tend more and more to use unecessary names. Also in osu! it is still easier to see what for a diff this is because of the star lvl for example. In Taiko it's not that case.
- I agree to Slider Velocity.
- Oh? I don't mean breaks, I mean little rest moments. Those are used in every Taiko map.
This one for example not: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30730 That's not good for the stamina of players and is a generel agreedment here.
@D33d:
Same what I said to TheVileOne. It's just considered as 1/1 or 1/2, moments were a song has no mainsounds/etc..
wmfchris has explained it better I guess.
I don't think I'll be able to check it... too many people lol. Therefore, I'm going on a hiatus atm, because of this.OnosakiHito wrote:
@XK: Oh you understand me wrong. I just mean you need to check if anyone else had such a name before, because otherwise your diff could be asociated with the other guy.
Topic Starter
@XK: Try to play my Infinite taikosaki with the SV 1.60. 
Anyway, moved SV into guidelins and changed Finishes to this:
Anyway, moved SV into guidelins and changed Finishes to this:
- Finish Notes
- These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
- Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).
Exeptions: Every stream that has "xxooxxooX" or harder patterns need to have a 1/2 space between stream and finish. That means using finishes on following streams were a climax sound is clearly hearable is allowed: "xxxxxxxx...xxxxO", "xxxxoooo...xxxxooooX"
Finish NotesWhat I would recommend is, having a 1/4 cluster with one finish at the end should be acceptable if required (like the climax sound you described earlier), but only if BPM is below 150 and the pattern is simple (simple being a monotone cluster or max of two switches between red and blue eg "xxooxxX"), and never in any case should anyone spam finishes and notes in a single 1/4 cluster eg "xXoOoOXxxX". If a 1/4 cluster made up of all finishes is deemed required, scroll speed must be above x1.5 of the song's BPM (in OODain's case it's x1.67 of the normal)
- These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
- Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).
Exeptions: Every stream that has "xxooxxooX" or harder patterns need to have a 1/2 space between stream and finish. That means using finishes on following streams were a climax sound is clearly hearable is allowed: "xxxxxxxx...xxxxO", "xxxxoooo...xxxxooooX"
I'm already dead, Ono xDOnosakiHito wrote:
@XK: Try to play my Infinite taikosaki with the SV 1.60.
My comments on the rule can be found on the Taiko Playersthread.
Blue - agreed, it doesn't need further explainationaquabluu wrote:
What I would recommend is, having a 1/4 cluster with one finish at the end should be acceptable if required (like the climax sound you described earlier), but only if BPM is below 150 and the pattern is simple (simple being a monotone cluster or max of two switches between red and blue eg "xxooxxX"), and never in any case should anyone spam finishes and notes in a single 1/4 cluster eg "xXoOoOXxxX". If a 1/4 cluster made up of all finishes is deemed required, scroll speed must be above x1.5 of the song's BPM (in OODain's case it's x1.67 of the normal)
Red - I believe it's hard to define a clear cut BPM that 1/4 can be placed, the marginal case is very controversal... and if finish-stream is deemed to be necessary (which is a very rare case), I think SV1.0x of its normal is enough because they don't cover each other.
Well it's all very situational, I just set some values that can be changed anytime. I think this is up to the individual map and whether it's comfortable to have a 1/4 finish cluster though.
Are people realing debating over finish notes at the end of streams...?
I thought lepid and I killed that discussion already.
(by the way, I do not care on this. While I don't mind finishes, I'm also not a good taiko player and my opinion does not matter very much here. I'm fine with making finishes completely unrankable. The point is that even a 100% authentic taiko map would have a difficult time being ranked in osu!taiko, if at all.)
I think that'd be fun to play though. Maybe I just like air. gogo unranked Tairko maps.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: 大打音 is so-called neta-map. That means it is extremely exceptional case. Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.
(by the way, I do not care on this. While I don't mind finishes, I'm also not a good taiko player and my opinion does not matter very much here. I'm fine with making finishes completely unrankable. The point is that even a 100% authentic taiko map would have a difficult time being ranked in osu!taiko, if at all.)
The answer is no, don't do it, it's terrible.
Topic Starter
Okay, how about minimate it much more?
As lepidopodus said, Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.
So or so finishes were discussed everytime and somtimes some mappers want to keep it but don't do because of discussions. So let's move this problem under guidelines (or keep it in rules) and say:
Seams better?
As lepidopodus said, Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.
So or so finishes were discussed everytime and somtimes some mappers want to keep it but don't do because of discussions. So let's move this problem under guidelines (or keep it in rules) and say:
- Finish Notes
Using finishes at the beginning/end or middle of a stream is not allowed. Under certain conditions and many discussion there may be made an exception.
Seams better?
Make unusable middle-stream Finishes ( Rule ), Beginning/End Finish Notes usable but discouraged ( Guideline or Rule )
Topic Starter
1. unsuable middle-stream Finishes & beginning-stream finishes
2. End finishes usable but dicouraged
Beginning(overlapping by finishes) is worser as ending(overlapping by normal hitcircle)
spliting it would be... possible, I guess?
2. End finishes usable but dicouraged
Beginning(overlapping by finishes) is worser as ending(overlapping by normal hitcircle)
spliting it would be... possible, I guess?
Isn't that was first proposed a long long time ago?
Topic Starter
I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.
Middle -> Prohibited by Rule, Reason: Obvious ( suggest splitting stream )
Start -> Highly Discouraged by Guideline, Reason: They have sense sometime.
End -> Avoid Random using by Recommendation, Reason: They're easier to play and to use.
Start -> Highly Discouraged by Guideline, Reason: They have sense sometime.
End -> Avoid Random using by Recommendation, Reason: They're easier to play and to use.
OnosakiHito wrote:
I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.
the middle ground would be only xxxdK be allowed as a guideline, if that. Backfire, ozzy, Rokodo, and maybe lepi all say a big "NO" to any big notes in 1/4 streams, even at the end of screams. The points I made earlier are still valid (big notes aren't impossible, and can be fun to some people) but a lot of people despise them with a passion, especially on osu. Since the users really need to make the rules, we need to follow their lead.OnosakiHito wrote:
Okay, stop please for a moment.
Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.Things got at the moment really messed up here. I will aske some BAT's to clean the thread if necessary.
- Finish Notes
These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.
The best reason to disallow these notes is that it is unauthentic. While you can cite difficulty as a reason, I wouldn't do so, because there should never be a limit to difficulty as long as it is theoretically possible. We can discourage hard maps, but we shouldn't outright ban them.
They can be royally abused and thus could make maps hard to read.
The BEST way to describe what is "acceptable" is if it speeds up into the finish, or you're using fake (doubled) bpm/sv.
The BEST way to describe what is "acceptable" is if it speeds up into the finish, or you're using fake (doubled) bpm/sv.