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Somewhere to throw your votes [Storyboard Toggle] [added]

posted
Total Posts
176
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,468
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ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN
Ok, ok, i was just talking xD i know what you think about it.
Anyways, great idea with this one.
*sticks to changelog* cool things there last times. :)
eddieee
253 posts
Joined February 2010
eddieee
great solution ppy:3 thank you.

my only question how about custom skins mappers put in their maps.. can i still delete those?

(mayB a dumb question but what the hell :D/)
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This is simply amazing. Excellent idea, perfect solution, really.

Just one thing: there are some storyboards that are meant never to be deleted (Don't Stop Me Now, I Can Be Your Friend or in another registry Disturbia). Is there a way to mark these storyboards "non-deletable" ?

Well anyway, full support. I'm looking forward to seeing this implemented.
h3k1ru
osu! Alumni
1,910 posts
Joined March 2010
h3k1ru

peppy wrote:

ShaggoN wrote:

Kiai toggle
Don't get me started.
for some ppls osu is more than just a game, its like a sport, get it please
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
That's like saying "remove the sun from the universe; it makes me hot while running".

Let's keep this on-topic, though.
eddieee
253 posts
Joined February 2010
eddieee

peppy wrote:

That's like saying "remove the sun from the universe; it makes me hot while running".

Let's keep this on-topic, though.
Plz answer my question then :D?
Kitsunemimi
2,188 posts
Joined April 2009
Kitsunemimi

eddieee wrote:

Plz answer my question then :D?
While the skin my sometimes be a bit awkward or difficult to play with, I honestly doubt it would be something that's more distracting than a really intense storyboard. And it certainly doesn't lag as much. People have requested to be able to disable skins in the past already, but I doubt peppy will include this feature.
[/offtopic]

I really like this idea of disabling storyboards after a first run, since a lot of hard work is put into those storyboards (including my own), and they're pretty interesting to watch. Actually, I'm convinced that this is probably the only possible solution without adding the option to disable all storyboards in general. So although we won't be able to disable them in multi (on the first try anyways), I think this would make osz2 more appreciable when time comes.
eddieee
253 posts
Joined February 2010
eddieee
i don't remember asking a question to you, i want to know if can still delete skins... since i am a competitive player, skin is for me just as important as SB/BGmovie so plz give me a answer... and not this story
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
If there is a storyboard toggle, there will also be a skin toggle. It will work in a similar way. Kiai is completely out of the question.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Just add a mod named "No Sh!t Sherlock" which disables every custom thing in the map (leaving only the map itself, a black background and kiai stuff). It sounds like I'm making a joke but no, I'm sure almost everyone deletes everything in a map folder except for the MP3 and the map itselfs when playing serious stuff, which means using your own skin + black background (sometime grey or other color because of dark colored hits). Don't think wrong of me, I almost always play with SBs and such since I, for some reason, find the map more enjoyable, but when trying to do hard stuff it is just a problem (yeah, when I play just for enjoyment I love having a nice SB, but when playing in a competitive manner I just feel like deleting every image file in osu's songs folder).

I don't mean to be rude or sound imperative, sorry if it looks like it.
adam2046
1,653 posts
Joined April 2008
adam2046

Wishy22 wrote:

I'm sure almost everyone deletes everything in a map folder except for the MP3 and the map itselfs when playing serious stuff
Yeah, it does sound like you're making a joke.

I can't really think of any way that the proposed system could be improved.
...Yet somehow I get the feeling there'll still be some "disable storyboard without playing" threads.
Bittersweet
2,031 posts
Joined February 2010
Bittersweet
Awesome, especially cause i usually (try to) play map few times with sb/skin before delete it. Just a question: This first play will count for the whole mapset or it'll be per diff?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

adam2046 wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

I'm sure almost everyone deletes everything in a map folder except for the MP3 and the map itselfs when playing serious stuff
Yeah, it does sound like you're making a joke.

I can't really think of any way that the proposed system could be improved.
...Yet somehow I get the feeling there'll still be some "disable storyboard without playing" threads.
When you reach some high level playing this you'll notice deleting the background when playing with AR 10 or doing high BPM DTs is really a big help. With serious stuff I mean that, not trying to do some insane map with an A/S. Feel free to ask most top players if they actually play very hard maps with all the stuff a mappers adds to it (uncomfortable skins, flashy SBs/BGs, etc).

PD: Didn't see last peppy's post, so w/e.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
Yeah, finally a good compromise.
And i totally agree with the toggle to be disabled on a "per-play" basic.

And now i want osz2 even more.

@Bittersweet:

peppy wrote:

Here's how it works: Storyboards are always played the first time you play a map. This cannot be bypassed. They will always play once. After you pass the map once on any difficulty, a new toggle option will appear, allowing storyboards to be disabled on a per-play basis.
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta
Sounds great. It's fair and it's a huge step up from the flat out "No" we've been receiving for god knows how long.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

peppy wrote:

Here's how it works: Storyboards are always played the first time you play a map. This cannot be bypassed. They will always play once. After you pass the map once on any difficulty, a new toggle option will appear, allowing storyboards to be disabled on a per-play basis.
So just do DT + AutoPlay and wait for the map to end to play it... is there any real need to waste time doing that? I mean seriously, if a player wants to see the SB, he will, but some mappers love doing storyboards so much that they forget the map is meant to be played and not to be watched. Having to "play" it or "watch" it to be able to disable it is, in my opinion, a waste of time.
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
@above

peppy wrote:

After you pass the map once
Autoplay doesn't count as passing it since Autoplay is a 'replay'.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
1- In order to keep it in terms I can agree with, I will probably add the following restrictions, but these may change:

* Autoplay will tentatively be accepted.

2- If my PC is bad enough for me not to be able to play it with it's SB because my FPS count goes to 20, then what?

3- No Fail + DT + Spun Out + Clicking some of the last circles to clear it. Still wasting time.
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN
Storyboard, storyboard...but it'd be great if it worked with skin too. Hmmm
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
osu! already detects lag and disables score submitting, would it not help to give the player an option to disable the SB if they are detected to be severely lagging?
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi

peppy wrote:

If there is a storyboard toggle, there will also be a skin toggle.
I'm really glad that there is going to be a skin toggle (if i've understood your post correctly). I can usually not play a beatmap if it has a different skin than the one i'm using or standard, no matter how little difference it has.
Dragvon
osu! Alumni
2,269 posts
Joined June 2009
Dragvon
Even tho i'm a SB & Skins lover i must say this is a nice solution.
As for people who usually say skins ruins gameplay, i think that's an issue with the modding team... It's kinda dumb that if a skin is so bad to play that no one point's that out :3
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta

Dragvon wrote:

Even tho i'm a SB & Skins lover i must say this is a nice solution.
As for people who usually say skins ruins gameplay, i think that's an issue with the modding team... It's kinda dumb that if a skin is so bad to play that no one point's that out :3
This is very true. Usually bad skins are the skins which have fake edges where the hit circle isn't really there, so you end up clicking on the end of the skin, thinking you're hitting the circle but you're not. Then they have stupid spinners where you can't see the point in the middle and an intrusive background where you can't see the notes that follow up a spinner. This isn't in the least bit fun it's ANNOYING.

I think the BATS need to be a lot more strict when ranking maps with skins. The same could be said for Storyboards too.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I hate:
maps which force the "default" skin or use an absolutely horrid skin.
maps which have hit300 etc skinned with big pop ups.
maps with low quality videos.
maps with bad color/BG/SB combination.
These are the only changes I ever make to a map. (sometimes I change the AR, but that obviously doesn't make it ranked anymore)

Storyboards are part of the map, however to force a user to play it once is somewhat ridiculous. Most people enjoy storyboards when playing for fun, but when trying to concentrate/SS the map, many delete everything.

I think a "no storyboard" and "no skin" and perhaps a "no background" toggle are in order, much like the "no video" toggle. Even people who hate storyboards will play it once or twice with the storyboard on. I don't particularly mind backgrounds, so I wouldn't want "no skin" to omit the background too.

As far as modding is concerned: this doesn't solve already ranked maps with terrible skins, and a large majority of people who play osu don't mod maps. I'm not certain, but I don't see a lot of people when modding complain about bad skins, which leads me to believe most of the modders don't care about it, and we'll get more bad skins ranked.

You could say that a bad skin/sb/background is part of the map, but they ruin the map for me, making it a pain to play. Obviously I downvote those maps, even if the beatmap and song are great.

The only annoying part about kiai (to me) is the star2.png, which can be skinned away.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy

ziin wrote:

Storyboards are part of the map, however to force a user to play it once is somewhat ridiculous.

ziin wrote:

Even people who hate storyboards will play it once or twice with the storyboard on.
/?

Wishy22 wrote:

2- If my PC is bad enough for me not to be able to play it with it's SB because my FPS count goes to 20, then what?
Then you are playing an unranked map. (if a ranked map runs this slow it should be unranked, no matter the specs of your pc.)

Wishy22 wrote:

3- No Fail + DT + Spun Out + Clicking some of the last circles to clear it. Still wasting time.
make some tea and apologise to the mapper for ignoring half of their map.

I am also strongly against adding a background toggle. If you want to play a game where you are hitting single-coloured circles on a black background, go make your own ouendan clone ;). Another way of expressing this would be that you have to draw the line between competition and fun somewhere. I don't know any arcade rhythm game that let's you turn off all the flashes, background and video (this is sometimes a toggle).
Waryas
Waryas
Then you are playing an unranked map. (if a ranked map runs this slow it should be unranked, no matter the specs of your pc.)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17154
Ranked a few days ago, a lot of players have to delete the SB to properly play it without lag.

And some HR or DT are impossible with the BG on..

It sounds like I'm making a joke but no, I'm sure almost everyone deletes everything in a map folder except for the MP3 and the map itselfs when playing serious stuff, which means using your own skin + black background (sometime grey or other color because of dark colored hits).
I do that as well, I also delete most custom hitsounds cause i'm more at ease with my own.
Last edited by Waryas , edited 1 time in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Dragvon wrote:

Even tho i'm a SB & Skins lover i must say this is a nice solution.
As for people who usually say skins ruins gameplay, i think that's an issue with the modding team... It's kinda dumb that if a skin is so bad to play that no one point's that out :3
Some skins have almost undistinctable hit images, like K-ON's skin, you don't really know if you are hitting 300 100 or what, some other skins (like some Bleach skin there's around) are just awful for playing, the hits are huge and innecesarily flashy, they are just a nuisance when playing (I don't even want to think about playing hidden with that kind of skins). As I said before and Derekku even said I was somehow right, maps shouldn't have any skin on them, they should use the "load skin from skins folders" feature, like maps like Hourai Victim by 3L do, if you want to use Touhou skin on maps it fits, then download it and have it on your skins folder, this doesn't only make maps lighter but makes the user able to easily decide if he wants to use custom skins or just his skin.

peppy wrote:

Make some tea and apologise to the mapper for ignoring half of their map.

I am also strongly against adding a background toggle. If you want to play a game where you are hitting single-coloured circles on a black background, go make your own ouendan clone ;). Another way of expressing this would be that you have to draw the line between competition and fun somewhere. I don't know any arcade rhythm game that let's you turn off all the flashes, background and video (this is sometimes a toggle).
I'm sorry for them but there are many maps that are kinda unplayable with their skins/bg/sb's, if mappers want users to enjoy their work they should begin with understanding this is a game where we, to begin with, play, it's nice to have some nice stuff to watch while playing, but that's secondary, the main event is playing and if the scenery cuts into the gaming, then something's wrong. As I think I said, personally I (almost) always end up playing maps with SB and that stuff if I'm not looking for some hard FC/rank, but there are some maps that I just can't play with their SB, and that's not my fault, it's the mapper's fault for making a SB way too distracting or blinding (yellow shit on the SB, yellow and orange hits, horray you can't see a thing).
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
I don't have problems with skins or storyboard unless the skins hit300, hit100 etc. are the same color. I distinguish them from their color, so yeah x.x Oh and awful spinners. I'm able to play with storyboards most of the time, I just kinda block it out when I'm playing. Only thing I guess is when I try to do some hard stuff, where I, yeah, delete everything xP

Still a good solution, and I guess you'd just have to get better at playing with Backgrounds (if that's kept) rather than without
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

peppy wrote:

I am also strongly against adding a background toggle.
In this case, can we make backgrounds with large areas of solid white unrankable, and haxsubmit dimmed backgrounds onto all of these?
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
God guys, what the hell is wrong with you all?
Really, take me back to 2007, when noone complained about anything, and we all played everything without complaining everytime.

Peppy just proposed a really nice way to have a compromise with all the storyboard toggle that were requested in the past (and he wasn't forced to do so), he proposed a nice idea with a good implementation and you're still bitching because you don't even want to watch a SB ONCE?
I dunno if I'm the sick guy or you are.
Why do we mappers even bother to storyboard if noone wants to see our works?

JesusYamato wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17154
Ranked a few days ago, a lot of players have to delete the SB to properly play it without lag.
My first try, i ran osu and downloaded that only to test it and:
SPOILER
I NEVER lagged and my pc is quite old (P4 3.4Ghz, 1GB ram, NVidia 6600GT 256MB).
Then i checked SB load, just to be sure. It has a average of 3,5/4.0x and barely passes 5.0 in some transitions. I expected way more, seeing the quality of the work.

So, you chose a really bad example, because that SB is perfect: nice, not flashy and well optimized.

JesusYamato wrote:

And some HR or DT are impossible with the BG on..
I FC'd Don't Stop Me Now with Hidden HardRock AND WITH BOTH STORYBOARD AND SKIN (inb4 "you can't prove it").

And I'm the only one who did such record, iirc.
If i could do it, why can't someone else with other maps?

Honestly, if you can't play with a normal BG on (there are some bad BG, but there's people who deletes everything and that's nonsense, really) you have some problems with playing the game, don't blame the beatmap.

That said: i raged because I can't understand you.
James2250
osu! Alumni
4,059 posts
Joined July 2008
James2250

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

God guys, what the hell is wrong with you all?
Really, take me back to 2007, when noone complained about anything, and we all played everything without complaining everytime.

Peppy just proposed a really nice way to have a compromise with all the storyboard toggle that were requested in the past (and he wasn't forced to do so), he proposed a nice idea with a good implementation and you're still bitching because you don't even want to watch a SB ONCE?
From what I have read so far I am thinking this as well
MLGnom
1,365 posts
Joined October 2008
MLGnom
How about toggling background into default(osu logo) or if skin applied into "playfield" (actually those are used only on ranking screen and few old maps)(only asking).

Seriously, storyboards and new skins makes osu! play much funnier. But if you are running xxxx programs in background or something, you will always have lags...
If you really don't like skins, SB's applied by mapper check the actually pending maps and inform mappers about that... don't complain when map is actually ranked...
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

JesusYamato wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17154
Ranked a few days ago, a lot of players have to delete the SB to properly play it without lag.

And some HR or DT are impossible with the BG on..
SPOILER

how can you delete this SB? it is amazing
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

That said: i raged because I can't understand you.
When I travel or I'm not at home I got my notebook with me, and I get low FPS there with Low-End PC thing on, I just can't play maps with videos or storyboards, meaning if I want to play there in the future I'll have to wait for the whole map to be autoplayed for playing it, don't you think that's just dumb? I mean seriously do you want me to watch the screen like an idiot for let's say 2 minutes for playing a map? I think it doesn't make any sense at all, really.

Plus yeah I hate doing AR 10 things with BG/SB, same with very fast things, I can't see the followpoints clearly and that's just a problem (depends on map though, some have just dark backgrounds and those work fine).
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

peppy wrote:

ziin wrote:

Storyboards are part of the map, however to force a user to play it once is somewhat ridiculous.

ziin wrote:

Even people who hate storyboards will play it once or twice with the storyboard on.
/?
No reason to force something which people are going to do anyway. I'm thinking of multiplayer, where it's nice to disable a bad SB/skin when you know it's bad because someone else tells you or you know about the problems but haven't played the map before. I'm not sure how you will handle the "first played" thing either. Isn't that a locally stored thing? If so, it's easily skippable without actually playing the map, or you can just make another difficulty with one note, which would be faster than auto double time. Not to mention, you can just run the auto-DT and walk away from the computer.

It just seems like it's a lot of extra work to force someone to watch the storyboard when most of osu will watch the storyboard eventually anyway. If you've already got this all coded (in your head?) then go for it. I just think the more complex you make something, the more bugs you introduce, and the more confusing it is to people.

Glad you're not going to get rid of backgrounds, I like them even though most people complaining would rather just have black ones.
Waryas
Waryas
That said: i raged because I can't understand you.
Some insane DT or AR10 HR are way more easy with black backgrounds cause you can focus on the followpoints, it's all about increased reactivity.
how can you delete this SB? it is amazing
I watched it once but when i had to set my record i had to "rename" (not delete) the SB folder.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
Well, everyone has his own opinion, I can't deny that.

But not accepting such a nice compromise because you don't even want to see what a mapper may have spent hours for just because you're like "lol i don't care delete" it's only a selfish whim.

As a mapper and storyboarder, i was supporting the "old" osz2 where everyone was forced to keep the SB for various reasons: Everyone will play the same way -> more fair; the map won't get misinterpreted because of missing stuff -> correct judgement of the map quality.
And also because i prefer people to play my maps as a whole: if you deleted BG/skin/SB from some of my maps, please delete the whole map and don't even play them, as they're not being played as i wanted them to be.
I'm not forcing you to download my map and to play it. If you like it, enjoy it. If you don't like it, delete and forget about it.

Even considering what i just said, i stll can accept this compromise because it will benefit the majority of people and still let my SBs get a little more chance to be seen before getting removed "for a better gameplay".

So i don't understand why me, a mapper who MAKES storyboards, can accept the compromise and you, who are not forced to play it, can't accept it.

Stop being selfish, it's impossible to make everyone happy in a 600k users community, yet peppy is still trying to discuss this because he saw the huge amount of requests this issue got.
Waryas
Waryas
I'm happy with the compromise, being able to toggle SB (and maybe skin) is already a huge step but why go halfway and not allow people to also have the choice to toggle BG?

P.S. : I don't delete, i rename when i want to do some serious ranking then i rename back when i want to play for fun.
Kurosanyan
2,642 posts
Joined November 2009
Kurosanyan
I can't play with low AR because too much notes confuse me and make me fail.
So I play only with Hard Rock mode but it's just impossible to play it with a background, that's why I delete it.
Then when I won't be able to delete background, I won't be able to play osu! anymore.
That's sad. :/

Also even if I have a good computer, a lot of skin and SB make me freeze, even on new ranked maps.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
Oh god, guys never play my maps, delete them.
I'm serious, I do my best thinking about how to make every skinned element/BG/SB as playable as possible (maybe i didn't a lot of time ago but i do now) and then i get people who removes everything i spent hours for.

Don't play my maps if you want to remove stuff, ever.

I still don't understand why I'm able to play AR9 and some AR10 maps (AR10 maps with HR) even with the storyboard on.
Either I'm crazy or there's a problem with your computers.

So, I still don't understand why everyone removes everything, give me some good explanation with some evidence.

@JesusYamato: deleting or "renaming", at the end both of them lead to the same result.
Noob Man
1,947 posts
Joined February 2010
Noob Man
Sometimes SBs are just epileptic (hi !). They're beautiful, but some people can't play well with it.
Personnally, I think that this storyboard toggle is a great idea, and I totally agree with it. °°
Now, a kiai toggle. *BAM*
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I'm with Card on this, seriously, if you guys are just going to screw up everything the mappers put on the maps then why would the mappers bother even storyboarding and dedicating time to make something pretty on their maps.
Mappers spend a long time creating these storyboards to give a great sensation when you play their maps, modders work hard optimizing the storyboards of mappers to make them lag the least for players, and you guys still complain even when you only have to watch it once?
And now you want a skin toogle too?
And a BG toggle?
What will it be later? a custom hitsound toggle?
and then what let's not even play?
Seriously guys, learn the appreciate the work other people do to create a better gaming experience for you guys, to see something more than a BG and some circles.
qlum
481 posts
Joined October 2008
qlum

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

Oh god, guys never play my maps, delete them.
I'm serious, I do my best thinking about how to make every skinned element/BG/SB as playable as possible (maybe i didn't a lot of time ago but i do now) and then i get people who removes everything i spent hours for.

Don't play my maps if you want to remove stuff, ever.

I still don't understand why I'm able to play AR9 and some AR10 maps (AR10 maps with HR) even with the storyboard on.
Either I'm crazy or there's a problem with your computers.

So, I still don't understand why everyone removes everything, give me some good explanation with some evidence.

@JesusYamato: deleting or "renaming", at the end both of them lead to the same result.
deleting not untill my osu! folder passes 300gb and even then I may buy a dedicated hard disk for osu!
42GB is nothing
Waryas
Waryas
And we're back to square 1.
People who want to keep the BG, etc will keep it and people who don't like eye candy stuff will remove it. Why does it matter to you if i disable your skin or not? Plenty of other users will still see it :roll:.
I just hope older maps won't get converted to osz2 so i can still play those.
FurukawaPan
649 posts
Joined August 2008
FurukawaPan
I hope people can accept with a straight face that some users are more easily distracted than others. Whether it's flickering backgrounds or random objects/lyrics flying around in behind hit objects, some of us can't help but be distracted by those. I've had one player tell me about fake flashlighting effects in some maps making that section entirely unplayable to that user. I am completely in favor of allowing anyone to disable any skin or visual effect. Some maps, the only beef I had with it was the mapper used a stupid cursor that made the entire thing difficult to play without deleting skin elements. There's a skin called Hikari (or something like that) which especially during kiai sections, leaves additional approach circles hovering around each hit circle, I hate this skin with a passion (were they TRYING to make the game unplayable?). And don't get me started on skins that make all the hit objects 50-60% transparent. Now that's just being mean.

I have plenty of reason to support the disabling or modification of storyboard and skin elements. To me, the core game is the hit circles, sliders, and spinners, and their placement according to space and time. Everything else is icing on the cake, and when it gets in the way of game play for any individual reason, the player should be able to deal with it.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
In as much as I don't like the concept of "disabling someone's hard work", it still makes perfect sense. The sort of people who would utilize the "disable storyboards" feature are not a storyboarder's target audience. In spite of that, forcing them to view a storyboard once through will still provide the opportunity to "discover a hidden gem".
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

JesusYamato wrote:

Why does it matter to you if i disable your skin or not? Plenty of other users will still see it :roll:.
Oh well! Maybe it does matter to me because I (or better: WE mappers) make the maps YOU (players) play?
How about we stop mapping or getting maps ranked, you guys are never satisfied anyway, always complaining! Might as well avoid the trouble!

*Card N'FoRcE sighs.

Let me end this discussion here or it won't end well (also i have to go to bed)
The more i write here the more I want to change my mind and disagree with peppy's proposal because we can't give you people a hand or else you'll end up taking our whole arm.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
I should have seen this response coming.

This feature request is still open and good; I just don't want to see this go down the same path as any other time this has been discussed. It seems some people think that osu! is just a competitive game with no heart, and that beatmappers should just be placing hitObjects (hey why don't we return back to 2007 when you didn't even need a background!!).

Hopefully my solution will help out the non-vocal majority of people, while apparently failing to satisfy some that have posted their strong opinions in this thread.

Edit: Also for those complaining about "lag", I will say what I've said forever, and that is to report it in the beatmap's thread. No map should "lag". (Make sure to !faq lag and understand what lag is and how to describe it.)

*locks*

Edit: Okay, I'll actually leave this unlocked, but please refrain from continuing the same argument to the point of destruction. Before you post, consider this argument from a mapper's perspective too.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat
i see no valid reason for this EXCEPT for maps that require a Epilepsy warning. being able to toggle those will be useful for people who it could effect
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Epileptic SB layer? :D
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

MetalMario201 wrote:

Epileptic SB layer? :D
Hey, remember this?
_P,[...],p
p: the effect parameter to apply
H - horizontal flip
V - vertical flip
A - additive-blend colour (as opposed to alpha-blend)
How about adding "E" (epilepsy inducing) for an object that may cause epilepsy?

(Also how about something like a "R" (reverse-able) for HardRock too?)
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I still want to know what I'm gonna do when I play on my notebook and have to wait for the whole song to be autoplayed for being able to disable it's SB.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
You're going to cry me a river.
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o

MetalMario201 wrote:

Epileptic SB layer? :D
+1
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

MetalMario201 wrote:

You're going to cry me a river.
Isn't the idea meant for those cases mainly?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

MetalMario201 wrote:

Epileptic SB layer? :D
Hey, remember this?
_P,[...],p
p: the effect parameter to apply
H - horizontal flip
V - vertical flip
A - additive-blend colour (as opposed to alpha-blend)
How about adding "E" (epilepsy inducing) for an object that may cause epilepsy?

(Also how about something like a "R" (reverse-able) for HardRock too?)
Oh this.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

peppy wrote:

Edit: Okay, I'll actually leave this unlocked, but please refrain from continuing the same argument to the point of destruction. Before you post, consider this argument from a mapper's perspective too.

Wishy22 wrote:

I still want to know what I'm gonna do when I play on my notebook and have to wait for the whole song to be autoplayed for being able to disable it's SB.
also is nothing good enough for you people >:C
also can someone explain this Epileptic SB layer idea...i'm really stupid when it comes to...well everything :/
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old

Wishy22 wrote:

I still want to know what I'm gonna do when I play on my notebook and have to wait for the whole song to be autoplayed for being able to disable it's SB.
have the replay go at 2x and get over the fact that it's 2~4 minutes of your life

IMO that is a very fair condition and one that I, as a person who generally gets distracted by SB's, am very happy with.

still sucks for the epileptic people, I guess they can just ignore their computer while auto plays through it then disable the SB.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat
also you'll need to PLAY the map once...not watch auto play it, play it
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old
oh, well uh.

somebody should tell us more about the epileptic thing. a friend of mine wants to play, but she's uber-paranoid because she's epileptic.
Waryas
Waryas
I'll try to block the BG with my mind, I'm happy enough that we can switch the skin/sb off.
I'm still interested to see some power players opinion about this.

Also is the fact that we watched the SB at least once local? What if we delete the .db files?
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame
I am against any possibility of disabling SB and skins.
From the perspective of a mapper for obvious reasons.
From the perspective of a player because I want everyone to see the same and have the same chances.
I've always already disliked the "no video" mod for this reason. Why do people have to have crappy computers :?
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

JesusYamato wrote:

Also is the fact that we watched the SB at least once local? What if we delete the .db files?
osz2, can't delete map files
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

E-Hooker wrote:

have the replay go at 2x and get over the fact that it's 2~4 minutes of your life

IMO that is a very fair condition and one that I, as a person who generally gets distracted by SB's, am very happy with.

still sucks for the epileptic people, I guess they can just ignore their computer while auto plays through it then disable the SB.
Actual system is way better since I can choose to watch it or not, giving me the possibility to save time and don't have to suffer the stress from playing with very low FPS for then playing with good FPS (notebook talking). Hope we eventually get an option that allows us to do things like we do now, but with osz2. Plus if this gets implemented (I mean the new format) I hope BATs start seriously looking at skins/SBs and all that stuff mappers usually add just to be deleted since it makes the map unplayable for lots of players.
Bittersweet
2,031 posts
Joined February 2010
Bittersweet

Wishy22 wrote:

Actual system is way better since I can choose to watch it or not, giving me the possibility to save time and don't have to suffer the stress from playing with very low FPS for then playing with good FPS (notebook talking).
Ok, peppy will change his mind, put all his work about osz2 in trash and whole community will agree with you just to make you happy.

Hope we eventually get an option that allows us to do things like we do now, but with osz2. Plus if this gets implemented (I mean the new format)
It will.

I hope BATs start seriously looking at skins/SBs and all that stuff mappers usually add just to be deleted since it makes the map unplayable for lots of players. I only agree with this. Feels like BATs dont really care much about skin/sb mods except for max size allowed or missing files :/
Claudia_old
571 posts
Joined July 2010
Claudia_old
cry me a river wishy, I play on a netbook and I don't have problems loading SB's.

on the subject of mappers making skins/SB's, I absolutely love them, although some SB's distract me substantially.

then there are storybords like THIS ONE that make me want to throw bricks at whoever ranked it

anyways...
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Bittersweet, letting users decide whether to play with SB/BG/Skin or not has nothing to do with what's osz2 supposed to do, afaik it is meant to make the submission system work better or something like that, but a consecuence of using that system is that users no longer have access to modify some stuff on maps they download. Nobody is telling him to dump all his work, you're getting it wrong.

And E-Hooker, I almost never play on my notebook, so I don't care (barely play a 3 or 4 days on it), but some people actually play on notebooks like mine or worse everyday, and it's gonna be a pain for them to have to play the unplayable, which is my point basically.
Bittersweet
2,031 posts
Joined February 2010
Bittersweet
All that im getting is that you saying same thing over and over again. It won't change anything about this new system, which in my opinion is a great idea for make both sides happy. If you wanna be so selfish, its up to you, i dont care, im just tired of ready same thing in every of your posts, honestly. If you dont wanna waste 4/5 really important minutes of your life, don't play anymore. Noone is forcing you to.

About ppl who plays with bad conditions: atm I play in a shitty notebook which can barely reaches 200fps. Sb lags me? As hell. If i mind of play lagged once and then free of it? Nope at all.

tl;dr (even if its short): stop to cry.

And sorry about it to the other users ^^'
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy

FireballFlame wrote:

I am against any possibility of disabling SB and skins.
From the perspective of a mapper for obvious reasons.
From the perspective of a player because I want everyone to see the same and have the same chances.
I've always already disliked the "no video" mod for this reason. Why do people have to have crappy computers :?
Did you read the initial post? Are you against my compromised solution?


Wishy22 wrote:

everything
I wonder if I should implement a forum ignore feature..
Also, list the storyboards that do lag you, and your osu! settings. You are quite possibly doing-it-wrong, since SBs should NOT LAG 99.999999999999998% of PCs.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

deadbeat wrote:

also can someone explain this Epileptic SB layer idea...i'm really stupid when it comes to...well everything :/
There are 4 layers currently:
Foreground - displays on top
Background - displays on bottom, otherwise identical to foreground
Pass - displays if you are currently "passing" the song with good health
Fail - displays if you are currently "failing" the song with bad health

The suggested new layers would be:
Epileptic - displays only if (presumably) a toggle is set in the options that you do NOT have epilepsy and can see flashes >3Hz without having a seizure.
Hard Rock - displays only if the player has the "Hard Rock" mod active, which mirrors the notes' locations, so you can add a storyboard which is contingent on being a certain distance away from one particular note which is not in the direct middle of the play area.
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta
Guys, peppy has gone from a flat out "No, fuck you" to a "OK, you can disable both the skin AND storyboard but with a tiny, minuscule catch which will literally only hinder your playing time by 2-3 minutes."

This is a GOOD thing, if he wanted to he could go back to the "no fuck you" mode.

Please stop arguing because it'll only make things worse. :/
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

ziin wrote:

deadbeat wrote:

also can someone explain this Epileptic SB layer idea...i'm really stupid when it comes to...well everything :/
There are 4 layers currently:
Foreground - displays on top
Background - displays on bottom, otherwise identical to foreground
Pass - displays if you are currently "passing" the song with good health
Fail - displays if you are currently "failing" the song with bad health

The suggested new layers would be:
Epileptic - displays only if (presumably) a toggle is set in the options that you do NOT have epilepsy and can see flashes >3Hz without having a seizure.
awesome. thx ziin

Zetta wrote:

Guys, peppy has gone from a flat out "No, fuck you" to a "OK, you can disable both the skin AND storyboard but with a tiny, minuscule catch which will literally only hinder your playing time by 2-3 minutes."

This is a GOOD thing, if he wanted to he could go back to the "no fuck you" mode.
kinda wish he would...so far all this has caused is us to yell at each other
EvianBubble
339 posts
Joined October 2009
EvianBubble
Option to disable storyboard and skins? Awesome :D
As a mapper who has made both skins and storyboards, I honestly don't give a crap about who deletes the SB / skin. If that's how they want to play it, fine. Personally, I think if the SB / skin is the only good part about the map, there is something wrong. Who am I to tell people what do do? Let them play the way they think it is most enjoyable
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame

peppy wrote:

FireballFlame wrote:

Did you read the initial post? Are you against my compromised solution?
I did. It's good as a compromise and I guess if storyboards really cause lag for so many people it can't be helped.
But, for me, lag is the only valid reason to do that, that's why I'm not happy with an option to disable skins being included as well.

There has even been a request for a background toggle as well in this thread. People would be using that and the skin toggle, like they are deleting the files atm, just to rid themselves of any "distractions" (= eye-candy) and use their own custom skins to make it easier to get high scores/records. I was hoping for osz2 to put an end to this tbh. Of course, I am free to do the same, but deciding not to do it automatically puts me at a disadvantage compared to the players who do. It means I have to decide between either playing to enjoy the atmosphere of a map (with eye-candy) or trying to get a good record (without, because it makes it easier and that's what the others will do).
That decision is what bothers me, because I'd have most fun being able do both.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
It's not a disadvantage; it's your choice to play in a way which suits you.

Skin toggle in my eyes is more important than storyboard from a playability perspective due to no standards on ranked maps' skins; basically anything goes currently. This does need to change in my eyes.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
This might sound wierd, but I personally think that background disabling option might be helpful too.

I had to delete them for quite a number of times and for different reasons, like too many white/very bright colors, combo colours blending with the background too much (this especially applies to hidden), or, err, general dislike of a background (after all, there are pictures which would irritate you when you're forced to look at them for 30 minutes or something), maybe a mix of those above.

In all the above cases black screen worked just great.

I believe same reasoning as with storyboard disabling might work here too, except backgrounds are mostly random pictures from internet and I think it wouldn't hurt the mapper as much as if I've had to delete the storyboard he took time and effort making.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
If I add a background disable function, it will also disable all hit objects, sounds, and osu! itself.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

peppy wrote:

I wonder if I should implement a forum ignore feature..
Also, list the storyboards that do lag you, and your osu! settings. You are quite possibly doing-it-wrong, since SBs should NOT LAG 99.999999999999998% of PCs.
You sure should, thought this forum already had one.

Pretty much every storyboard with constant flashes and somewhat good quality, options = everything disables + low end PC (which actually disables again most of the stuff). Sadly my notebook is into that 0.00000000000002%, and I'm damn sure I'm not the player with the worst notebook ever on this game. I'll eventually get a new laptop since I'm pretty much able to, but I'm sure some people can't just go and upgrade their PCs just for osu!.
Last edited by Wishy , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
What resolution, what map (give at leat one sample?), what renderer, what graphics card/cpu, what kind of lag (low fps, stuttering etc.)?
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
1280x800, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/20210 or http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23667 for example, about computer specs I got to find out, not sure about them, gonna add them later. Basically I got spikes when the SB goes "heavy", maybe with motion and constant flashes, in rare cases I get constant low FPS but normally I get some freezing every some seconds, which actually makes the game unplayable.

TKiller wrote:

I believe same reasoning as with storyboard disabling might work here too, except backgrounds are mostly random pictures from internet and I think it wouldn't hurt the mapper as much as if I've had to delete the storyboard he took time and effort making.
In fact, disabling SBs would be even more serious than disabling BGs because of what you said, a mapper makes an SB, most BGs are pics taken from http://www.somewallpapersite.com or Google.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

Wishy22 wrote:

In fact, disabling SBs would be even more serious than disabling BGs because of what you said, a mapper makes an SB, most BGs are pics taken from http://www.somewallpapersite.com or Google.
that's basically what I've said
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

TKiller wrote:

I had to delete them for quite a number of times and for different reasons, like too many white/very bright colors, combo colours blending with the background too much (this especially applies to hidden).
This is unrankable in case you didnt know
Combo colors should NOT be blending with the background on any ranked map
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

Zetta wrote:

Guys, peppy has gone from a flat out "No, fuck you" to a "OK, you can disable both the skin AND storyboard but with a tiny, minuscule catch which will literally only hinder your playing time by 2-3 minutes."
^ this.

Also I will be happy as long as this stuff isn't allowed to slip through:

TKiller wrote:

too many white/very bright colors, combo colours blending with the background too much (this especially applies to hidden)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I actually think the hitcircleoverlay is as important, if not more important than the hitcircle color.

It just so happens that most are white because people use the default. If you use a light background, I think it will be fine to use a light hitcircle color iif you use a dark hitcircleoverlay.

Wishy22 wrote:

about computer specs
use speccy
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

Sakura Hana wrote:

TKiller wrote:

I had to delete them for quite a number of times and for different reasons, like too many white/very bright colors, combo colours blending with the background too much (this especially applies to hidden).
This is unrankable in case you didnt know
Combo colors should NOT be blending with the background on any ranked map
and it still happens :)

And it's also very personal, colour perception differs from person to person, so what is ok for mapper/approver can be hard to read for a different player.
anamorphism
8 posts
Joined December 2010
anamorphism
so i guess i should weigh in even though i'm sure everything i'm about to say has been said before. the two main 'arguments' i see involve storyboarders wanting people to see their work and players that want to have the option to turn them off.

peppy has proposed a solution that forces each storyboard to be viewed once before giving players the option to turn them off.

storyboarders are being selfish for wanting to force people to view storyboards 100% of the time. players are being selfish for wanting to turn them off without giving them a shot.

having played some 500 or so beatmaps, i think there have only been 2 storyboards or so that i've wanted to disable. the majority of storyboards are very minimal, tastefully done and legitimately add some visual interest to the beatmap.

i can't speak for lag, but i can't imagine that 100% of the storyboards lag even the most severely underpowered systems. all games have minimum system requirements. if all storyboards lag your computer, consider your computer to be under those requirements. you should be thankful that you are maintaining the ability to play osu! on your system at the small expenditure of no fail/double timing each beatmap once. you may even discover certain storyboards that don't lag your system at all and that you actually like that you wouldn't have seen before.

if you're a storyboarder that is against this compromise, i can't see why. you're actually gaining one view of your storyboard over the current system. this compromise should just make it so you're spending more time on your storyboards to ensure they don't lag and don't hinder game-play at all. over time, this will make your storyboards better than they are currently, and you may gain more fans that have noticed that your storyboards are the only ones they don't disable because they are made so well.

---

as for me, i'm all about choice. peppy's compromise allows me to retain my privilege of choosing which storyboards i want to see when i'm feeling 'competitive'. he has every right to take that privilege away so i would suggest that everyone not overlook that fact. at the end of the day, this is his product, not ours. if we don't like it, the only thing we can rightfully do is to go make our own osu!, something i'm certain very few of us could actually pull off.
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN
I sereiously LOL'd for what this topic became. o_O
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Just noting that I think this is a fair compromise.
Mara
4,906 posts
Joined November 2009
Mara
I would have supported this, but after reading this thread... No.
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya
By the way, the smaller the osu window size, the less the lag.

(I have an horrible pc and using 800x600,45 fps to me)
Waryas
Waryas
How can you play with 45fps, if i have less than 200 fps I can't play correctly at all. (Yes I can feel a difference between 120fps and unlimited, I run at 3000+ constantly)
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Is human eye even capable of noticing a difference within 120 constant FPS and 2000? xd

You just need not to have freezes, if you have constant 60 FPS it should be fine... at least I played tons of games with FPS limited to 60 or 120 and it was all good.
Waryas
Waryas
60fps is plain unplayable for me, input lag and everything, 120fps i feel the approach circle sometime is skipping frame, unlimited = everything is smooth.
Is human eye even capable of noticing a difference within 120 constant FPS and 2000
Human eye can perceive up to 200 images per second I think but that doesn't really matter as your screen refresh rate limits everything to 59.97-60-120-200hz (depending on your monitor and GPU)
Kitsunemimi
2,188 posts
Joined April 2009
Kitsunemimi

Wishy22 wrote:

Is human eye even capable of noticing a difference within 120 constant FPS and 2000? xd

You just need not to have freezes, if you have constant 60 FPS it should be fine... at least I played tons of games with FPS limited to 60 or 120 and it was all good.
60FPS is absolutely brilliant for most games, but for osu!, it's crap.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Lower FPS cause bigger input delay too in case you didnt know, and +/- 10~20 ms on input delay can be detrimental on rythm games
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya

JesusYamato wrote:

How can you play with 45fps, if i have less than 200 fps I can't play correctly at all. (Yes I can feel a difference between 120fps and unlimited, I run at 3000+ constantly)
I don't really know how to explain.I'm stuck on vsync and that's my average fps, if I use 120 or unlimited my pointer gets stuck at each spinner (plus, it doesn't get the click input properly)
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
Topic Starter
peppy
60fps is only a problem if you are pre-rendering frames (most graphics cards have this set on by default). Apart from that, going higher than 60 is just going to get you a slightly perceived faster update (but with tearing) from no vsync, and more precise click timing. The average human eye will be happy with 30fps due to what they are used to when watching TV/movies. A trained eye will be happy with 60fps, and going higher has very minimal gains.

If you are feeling a difference between 120 and 2000, you are feeling the input delay reducing from 8.3ms to 0.5ms.
Nharox
884 posts
Joined February 2008
Nharox

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

Really, take me back to 2007, when noone complained about anything, and we all played everything without complaining everytime.
This. It saddens me that people these days keep complaining about everything and can't seem to be satisfiable.

I'm glad to hear that we'll be able to turn off custom skins and storyboards when osz2 hits osu! because I have serious problems playing without my default skin. :P A side note to turning off backgrounds, the ability to adjust the brightness of the background/playfield might be useful.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
HAY, I got an idea: a BAT-controllable background dimmer. Then backgrounds won't need to be disableable! :)
eddieee
253 posts
Joined February 2010
eddieee

MetalMario201 wrote:

HAY, I got an idea: a BAT-controllable background dimmer. Then backgrounds won't need to be disableable! :)
Or adjustable combo colours?
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