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[Proposal] Catch the Beat ruleset draft (General)

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Total Posts
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Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Hi everybody! After weeks of discussion within the people involved in the Criteria Council, I'm happy to announce we've come to an agreement and crafted a draft for a new set of rules and guidelines for Catch the Beat. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki. Here's the proposal:

Common terms


General

  1. Cup: Easy
  2. Salad: Normal
  3. Platter: Hard
  4. Rain: Insane
  5. Overdose: Expert
Gameplay

  1. Fruit: A large object represented by a hitcircle, slider head, tail or repeat.
  2. Drop: A medium-sized object represented by a slider tick.
  3. Droplet: A small object representing a slider body. Missing these will reduce your accuracy, but unlike the above, will not result in a combo break.
  4. Banana: An object found during spinners. These award bonus points, but do not contribute to accuracy and are not required to obtain max combo.
  5. Jump: A spacing between two objects that requires the use of dash to catch both.
  6. Hyperjump: A more exaggerated spacing which cannot be caught by normal dashing. During play, hyperdash will be triggered between the two objects, characterised by a coloured outline on the first object.
  7. Edge Dash: A very large spacing between two objects where the required Trigger Distance is not reached, and as such, a hyperjump is not generated. The first object must be caught with the edge of the plate in order to catch the second object at all.
  8. Trigger distance: The minimum spacing between two objects at which a hyperdash is generated between them.

General


Rules

  1. Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets.
  2. Edge dashes must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.
  3. Each map must use at least two different combo colors which must not blend in with the map's background/storyboard/video. This is so hit objects are always visible to the player.
Guidelines

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits". New Combos should be placed regularly to clear the plate and avoid this.
  2. Try to have at least one spinner in each difficulty to create variety in the map and fluctuation among scores. However, if a spinner just doesn't fit anywhere in the song, then there's no need to force one.
  3. Overall Difficulty should have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as Overall Difficulty does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty. For cases where the two values are not equal, the Overall Difficulty must be greater than or equal to the Overall Difficulty of the next hardest difficulty.
  4. Hyperdashes may only be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement, as transitioning into and out of complex slider shapes with hyperdash is usually uncomfortable to play and a major penalty to accuracy for little benefit. Hyperdash on slider repetitions must not be used for more than two repeats, and such slider must not be used consecutively.
  5. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. However, lower difficulties may use lower tick rates to reduce accuracy requirements for newer players, providing they still follow the rhythm of the song. Using high tick rates purely to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
  6. Hyperdashes should not be used when the destination of the hyperjump is located near the left or right border of the play field. This creates an uncomfortable movement as the catcher is forcibly stopped upon reaching the border of the playfield. Try to leave at least 16 osupixels of space between the end point of the hyperjump and the border of the play field, respectively at x:16 or x:496 at most.

Skinning



Rules

  1. Custom catchers must be included in v2 skin format. This is to ensure correct display on all skins. The required filenames are "fruit-catcher-idle.png", "fruit-catcher-kiai.png" and "fruit-catcher-fail.png".
  2. Custom fruits must include all necessary elements and be colored in a scale of grey colors. This is to ensure that your images are clearly defined and of acceptable quality. The needed elements can be found in the osu! wiki https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat#Fruits. Additionally, it is recommendable to use transparent elements for the overlays.
  3. Skinned elements must be the same size as their default skin counterparts. This is so they represent the hitbox properly and don't alter gameplay. The current dimensions used in the default skin are 128x128 pixels for the fruits, 82x103 for the drops and 306x320 for the catcher.
Guidelines

  1. Custom catchers can additionally include the element "lighting.png" to complete the skin set. This element is however optional to add and has default dimensions of 184x184 pixels, though it may vary depending on the desired visibility of the element.

Revision #2

Common terms


General

  1. Cup: Easy
  2. Salad: Normal
  3. Platter: Hard
  4. Rain: Insane
  5. Overdose: Expert
Gameplay

  1. Fruit: A large object represented by a hitcircle, slider head, tail or repeat.
  2. Drop: A medium-sized object represented by a slider tick.
  3. Droplet: A small object representing a slider body. Missing these will reduce your accuracy, but unlike the above, will not result in a combo break.
  4. Banana: An object found during spinners. These award bonus points, but do not contribute to accuracy and are not required to obtain max combo.
  5. Jump: A spacing between two objects that requires the use of dash to catch both.
  6. Hyperjump: A more exaggerated spacing which cannot be caught by normal dashing. During play, hyperdash will be triggered between the two objects, characterised by a coloured outline on the first object.
  7. Borderline dash: A spacing between two objects which requires dash between the opposing borders of the two objects to catch both. The spacing is not quite large enough to create a hyperjump.
  8. Trigger distance: The minimum spacing between two objects at which a hyperdash is generated between them.

General


Rules

  1. Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets.
  2. Borderline dashes must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.
  3. Each map must use at least two different combo colors which must not blend in with the map's background/storyboard/video. This is so hit objects are always visible to the player.
Guidelines

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits". New Combos should be placed regularly to clear the plate and avoid this.
  2. Try to have at least one spinner in each difficulty to create variety in the map and fluctuation among scores. However, if a spinner just doesn't fit anywhere in the song, then there's no need to force one.
  3. Overall Difficulty should have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as Overall Difficulty does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty. For cases where the two values are not equal, the Overall Difficulty must be greater than or equal to the Overall Difficulty of the next hardest difficulty.
  4. Hyperdashes may only be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions when the slider path is simple and easy-to-follow. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement, as transitioning into and out of complex slider shapes with hyperdash is usually uncomfortable to play and a major penalty to accuracy for little benefit. Hyperdash on slider repetitions must not be used for more than two repeats, and such slider must not be used consecutively.
  5. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. However, lower difficulties may use lower tick rates to reduce accuracy requirements for newer players, providing they still follow the rhythm of the song. Using high tick rates purely to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
  6. Hyperdashes should not be used when the destination of the hyperjump is located near the left or right border of the play field. This creates an uncomfortable movement as the catcher is forcibly stopped upon reaching the border of the playfield. Try to leave at least 16 osupixels of space between the end point of the hyperjump and the border of the play field, respectively at x:16 or x:496 at most.

Skinning



Rules

  1. Custom catchers must be included in v2 skin format. This is to ensure correct display on all skins. The required filenames are "fruit-catcher-idle.png", "fruit-catcher-kiai.png" and "fruit-catcher-fail.png".
  2. Custom fruits must include all necessary elements and be colored in a scale of grey colors. This is to ensure that your images are clearly defined and of acceptable quality. The needed elements can be found in the osu! wiki https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat#Fruits. Additionally, it is recommendable to use transparent elements for the overlays.

Revision #1

General


Rules

  1. Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets.
  2. Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.
  3. Each map must use at least two different combo colors which must not blend in with the map's background/storyboard/video. This is so hit objects are always visible to the player.
  4. Overall Difficulty must have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as OD does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty.
  5. Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement.
Guidelines

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits".
  2. Try to have at least one spinner in each difficulty to create variety in the map and fluctuation among scores. However, if a spinner just doesn't fit anywhere in the song, then there's no need to force one.
  3. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
  4. Hyperdashes should not be used when the second object in the hyperjump is located near the left or right border of the play field. This creates an uncomfortable movement as the catcher is forcibly stopped upon reaching the border of the playfield. Try to leave at least 16 osupixels of space between the end point of the hyperjump and the border of the play field, respectively at x:16 or x:496 at most.

Skinning



Rules

  1. Custom catchers mustbe included in both v1 and v2 skin format. This is to ensure correct display on all skins. The required filenames are "fruit-ryuuta.png" (v1), "fruit-catcher-idle.png", "fruit-catcher-kiai.png" and "fruit-catcher-fail.png" (v2).
  2. Custom fruits must include all necessary elements and be colored in a scale of grey colors. This is to ensure that your images are clearly defined and of acceptable quality. The needed elements can be found in the osu! wiki https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat#Fruits. Additionally, it is recommendable to use transparent elements for the overlays.

See the draft of the difficulty-specific ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435598

EDIT: There'll be a limited time to post your feedback in these threads, so make sure to do it until the 10th April at 23:59 UTC. There'll be a period of couple of days afterwards where the council will deliberate and adjust the draft to the recieved input from the community. This is to ensure that the ruleset gets approved by the staff in a reasonable period of time. It should be plenty of time to get enough feedback, so don't complain afterwards when the ruleset gets approved!

The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!

This will be the last 2-week period to recieve feedback from the community. After locking the thread on the 29th May at 23:59 UTC the ruleset will be discussed one more time with the last recieved comments and ammended by the osu! staff afterwards.
Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah
Nothing really new or not expected actually. Just some points who bother me but I'm annoying and I know that.

Deif wrote:

  1. Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement.
Some guys will be mad xD

Deif wrote:

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits". [l/list]
"Unreasonnable" should be defined like it is right now (aka 10-15-20idk).

Deif wrote:

  1. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
How it is said make it looks like it's rule when apparently it isn't. Actually for me it should be a rule and not a guideline but if you want to keep it as guideline you should probably change how it is phrased.

*rolls to read the other post*
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

Krah wrote:

Deif wrote:

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits".
"Unreasonnable" should be defined like it is right now (aka 10-15-20idk).
It's specified in the other thread with real quantities, in case people ask.
MBomb
MBomb
Ok, a few points here, too.

1. OD=AR is nice for the most part, but I feel it's better left as a guideline, as in some, albeit rare cases, you could have a low AR overdose (Like, for example, my overdose for seal.mp4), where a higher OD than the other diffs makes sense, especially seeing as these difficulties should be worth more points due to them taking more skill to pass/FC. Whilst I didn't use the fact it was a guideline in that case, it could be an option.

2. HDashes not being used on droplets I'm fine with, but on slider repititions, I feel it can be used well, and possibly best to keep as a guideline in that case. Whilst it is very rare it will fit the song, there's some cases in which it can, and it'll play nicely.

3. Whilst using higher tick rates is stupid due to tick rate being a part of the song, I feel as though sometimes, a lower tick rate could be better on easier difficulties, due to, for example, tick rate 4 causing some very difficult accuracy issues for new players. I'm assuming that's the reason this is a guideline, but thought I'd say just in case.

4. May be worth adding to the final guideline that, depending on HDash strength, an even bigger distance between the note and the wall could be required.

I don't know anything about skinning, so I'll let other people talk about that.
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey

Deif wrote:

Hi everybody! After weeks of discussion within the people involved in the Criteria Council, I'm happy to announce we've come to an agreement and crafted a draft for a new set of rules and guidelines for Catch the Beat. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki. Here's the proposal:

General


Rules

  1. Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets. Do we really need to define what an SS is here? I think just the very first sentence is fine?
  2. Overall Difficulty must have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as OD does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty. I do not really understand the reason why AR has to be the same as OD. This should be kept as a guideline, it seems there isn't even a totally valid reason to keep both consistent.
  3. Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement. It depends so much on the circumstances, in some situations they play really nice. At least I would suggest to keep Hypers on slider repetitions as a guideline.
Guidelines

  1. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless. Since when is that a thing? I remember you complained on my latest mapset to have the same tick rate on every difficulty. The actual guideline should be to keep similar slider tick rates in difficulties and it should be a rule to not allow the mapper to go from something like STR1 to STR2 from the previous to the following difficulty.

See the draft of the difficulty-specific ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435598
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Ok, a few points here, too.

1. OD=AR is nice for the most part, but I feel it's better left as a guideline, as in some, albeit rare cases, you could have a low AR overdose (Like, for example, my overdose for seal.mp4), where a higher OD than the other diffs makes sense, especially seeing as these difficulties should be worth more points due to them taking more skill to pass/FC. Whilst I didn't use the fact it was a guideline in that case, it could be an option.

This is a good point; but how much does OD actually contribute to the score multiplier? CtB scoring is heavily combo-based and since a harder diff will typically have a higher combo, the potential for higher score should be self-evident... But definitely worth investigating

2. HDashes not being used on droplets I'm fine with, but on slider repititions, I feel it can be used well, and possibly best to keep as a guideline in that case. Whilst it is very rare it will fit the song, there's some cases in which it can, and it'll play nicely.

Our reasoning was that if you need to put a hyper on a slider repetition it will be for a strong sound, which you probably shouldn't be mapping to a slidertick in the first place. Splitting into slider + circle or 3 circles would seem more logical to me.

3. Whilst using higher tick rates is stupid due to tick rate being a part of the song, I feel as though sometimes, a lower tick rate could be better on easier difficulties, due to, for example, tick rate 4 causing some very difficult accuracy issues for new players. I'm assuming that's the reason this is a guideline, but thought I'd say just in case.

This is exactly true, and in fact I was considering this point today when mapping a 200BPM Cup in SRT2 lol.

4. May be worth adding to the final guideline that, depending on HDash strength, an even bigger distance between the note and the wall could be required.

We tried to make our proposals as concrete and free of loopholes or ambiguity as possible - this is a guideline though, so there is scope to expand this on a case-by-case basis

Sey wrote:

Deif wrote:

Hi everybody! After weeks of discussion within the people involved in the Criteria Council, I'm happy to announce we've come to an agreement and crafted a draft for a new set of rules and guidelines for Catch the Beat. Notice this is NOT the final result, as we need the feedback of the community first before getting it officially bumped into the wiki. Here's the proposal:

General


Rules

  1. Overall Difficulty must have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as OD does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty. I do not really understand the reason why AR has to be the same as OD. This should be kept as a guideline, it seems there isn't even a totally valid reason to keep both consistent.
So what's a valid reason for having AR =/= OD ? MBomb gave a reasonable idea above, but I'm not 100% sold on it yet.


Guidelines

  1. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless. Since when is that a thing? I remember you complained on my latest mapset to have the same tick rate on every difficulty. The actual guideline should be to keep similar slider tick rates in difficulties and it should be a rule to not allow the mapper to go from something like STR1 to STR2 from the previous to the following difficulty.
It's not a thing in the current RC which is why we're making one here lol. Requesting that tick rate should be "similar" as a Guideline is far too ambiguous and can be easily worked around without valid reasoning
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Regarding the AR/OD thing, the effect on max score is not linear, there are 3 intervals with different mutlipliers. Given the same map, (IIRC) things between OD1 and 7 (both included) will have the same score, OD8 to OD10 get a increased score (the same for any OD in this range), and OD0 gets a reduced score.. I didn't test for decimal values.

Since the same multiplier spans over a range of ODs, it's hard to achieve what you pretend (smoothly increasing score for harder difficulties).
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey

JBHyperion wrote:

So what's a valid reason for having AR =/= OD ? MBomb gave a reasonable idea above, but I'm not 100% sold on it yet.
This dragged along when CTB specified mapsets have been introduced to osu and it lasted until today. It is however a good guideline for mappers who don't know what other song setup settings to choose on CTB, So yeah, I basically just say it should be mentioned as a guideline but not as a rule, since there are neither reasons for nor against it. I see it as helpful, but not as mandatory.
Last edited by Sey , edited 1 time in total.
WildOne94
581 posts
Joined October 2013
WildOne94

Deif wrote:

[*]Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
I think this might be a somewhat hard guideline to follow as if to say that some drums in songs cover 1/4's or more then they can be hard to make for easier diffs. Most higher diffs can map every one of these drums but if for say like a cup/easy, it would be annoying to make and miss every drum noise. That's why I normally use the slider tick rate higher in the easiest diff something to be able to cover the drum sounds with the ticks (turning on and off with timeline points).

I have my nitro fun song that goes from a 1/2 drum beat pattern to them placing on 1/4s halfway through the song which messes up the diff making it seem more like a normal. I wouldn't want to overmap so that's why i do tick rates more on easier diffs. And less on harder because it does not seem that good with more on harder ones imo.

Hope that makes sense.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
There is only one problem with higher tick rates on easier difficulties. (I remember saying the similar things as above once or twice in the future then I somehow changed my mind.) The Cups and even the Salads are meant to be for never players but their movement is really inaccurate at that time. Setting higher SV results that they need to be really accurate to catch the appearing ticks in order to avoid possible misses. So in order to avoid this, set it higher should not be acceptable.

@Mbomb Please do not do slow Overdoses. /o/
MBomb
MBomb

Kurokami wrote:

@Mbomb Please do not do slow Overdoses. /o/
But there are cases where it could fit a song, is the main problem, such as low bpm songs with lots of strong beats. I've heard songs as low as 80bpm where an overdose would be fitting, and having anything above AR8.5 would be strange.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
That's why it's a guideline and not a rule.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
See the update in the OP: The deadline is on 10th April at 23:59 UTC.
BoberOfDarkness
1,061 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness

Sey wrote:

Deif wrote:

Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement. It depends so much on the circumstances, in some situations they play really nice. At least I would suggest to keep Hypers on slider repetitions as a guideline.
I totally I agree with Sey, this should be in the guidelines and could be allowed on some Overdose's but with caution.
On FlandreScarlet-s map (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/492741) hyper on slider doesn't cause chaotic movement
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I don't want to see any sliderend on strong beats. If its really that strong, just separate them. I don't get why ppl want to end their sliders on those beats as sliderends does not have the same impact as sliderheads. While they might play nicely they sounds really awful. :c
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari
Generally I have no problem with most of this, it's fairly standard and doesn't really punish anything or anybody but I would like to voice my opinion on this:

Deif wrote:

[notice]

General


Rules
  1. Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement.
Whilst it may create chaotic movement, I do think that this should be a guideline instead of a rule. Hypers on slider-ends make no sense, Kurokami has shown this in the post above me. However, I think that hyperdroplets could work very well in some cases. Whilst I do support it, I would only support it in very high difficulties, going towards my point of making it a guideline rather than a rule.

I probably didn't word this great but there you go.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
I think at most it could be a guideline for slider repetitions but hyper droplets should be completely disallowed, I've never really seen them used in a way that makes them the best choice for any particular section of a song.
Sorceress
332 posts
Joined September 2012
Sorceress
Not all that many posts here, maybe it would make sense to post about this in the Catch the Beat specific forum next time or atleast in the general thread there? Without being in certain Discord groups I would have not seen this thread.

Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement.
It's perfectly possible to have "chaotic and unreasonably difficult" slider movement without hypers anywhere and perfectly possible to have simple and easy sliders with hypers, it's more a problem with the slider shape and SV rather than hypers/no hypers.

Zak wrote:

I think at most it could be a guideline for slider repetitions but hyper droplets should be completely disallowed, I've never really seen them used in a way that makes them the best choice for any particular section of a song.
Wouldn't rule them out because we're yet to see a good usage for them yet. They're a rare sight even in the craziest of unranked difficulties but I believe there's potential for some cool stuff to be done with them. Disallowing them with a rule just ensures we'll never see this idea explored.

I don't believe any of the points for disallowing hypers on slider repetitions and droplets are solid enough to have this as a rule, I strongly support this being made into a guideline atleast. We have the modding process to deal with any silly sliders, hypers or not.


Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
Some points raised about the impact of this on easier difficulties in the thread that I can agree with here. I think rewording this to allow lower tick rate on easier difficulties would be a good move. I'm no expert at explaining things but I've seen some people getting flak for not suggesting any wording so here we go.
Do not use excessively high tick rate as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.
Makes a point against unnecessary high tick rates but I'm thinking it's too vague as to that high tick rate is. Also, what exactly is meant by "the mapping" in "as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping" ? I'm thinking just having "the map" would make more sense.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I'm just gonna answer this way as its pain to quote on phone. We mainly disallowed sliderticks and repeats to be Hypers because they hardly makes any sense. To go with examples, to be able to add a Hyper to the repeats you need to increase the whole slider's velocity which, on higher bpm creates a very hard movement where really easy to miss a few droplet or even it could be a hard dash. Yes it might be usable in some cases but currently there is more against it.

Same applies to the droplet as well. If there is a strong beat which needs a Hyper then it shouldn't be mapped that way in the first place.

Both of these just exist to increase the SR which gives more pp. There is no way that it cant be done to follow the song normally.

If you need better explanation with more visual examples, contact me on every afternoon or Sunday please. And I'm interested in your reasons as well.
Last edited by Deif , edited 1 time in total.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Kurokami wrote:

I'm just gonna answer this way as its pain to quote on phone. We mainly disallowed sliderticks and repeats to be Hypers because they hardly makes any sense. To go with examples, to be able to add a Hyper to the repeats you need to increase the whole slider's velocity which, on higher bpm creates a very hard movement where really easy to miss a few droplet or even it could be a hard dash. Yes it might be usable in some cases but currently there is more against it.

Same applies to the droplet as well. If there is a strong beat which needs a Hyper then it shouldn't be mapped that way in the first place.

Both of these just exist to increase the SR which gives more pp. There is no way that it cant be done to follow the song normally.

If you need better explanation with more visual examples, contact me on every afternoon or Sunday please. And I'm interested in your reasons as well.
I don't think hyper droplets are a bad thing.

Quick and poorly explained example:

Long slider in maybe some form of dubstep song, sudden pitch change or drop but you want to continue the slider because its the same after. Slider starts one one side relatively straight and it goes horizontal to add emphasis to that change and adds a hyper to a vertical continuation on the other side.

I think things like this would be really cool to play and see, a poor explanation but I hope that you can see what I mean.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
And you miss a lot of droplets while trying to play that slider as mostly every dubstep has a low bpm which means you need a huge SV multiplier to at least make it possible. I made a 1/1 slider on bpm 75 with 2.4x SV and 2.0 miltiplier and there was no Hyper. Even increasing to 3.6 did not help. It might appear on higher bpm but for dubsteps, thats not a thing even if we allow it. Dubsteps are made in osu! already and they plays just fine in CtB as well, there is no need droplet Hypers to be added.

@Riari you were against CLSW's weird rhythm not so long ago, tell me, what is the difference between his rhythm and the droplet Hypers? If the beat only supports a droplet then why that should be a Hyper? Or if the beat is strong then why there is only a droplet? Musics with vocal has the highest chance to contain something similar, but thats just might happen. Personally I don't want to see mixed vocal and music rhythm. :c
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Kurokami wrote:

And you miss a lot of droplets while trying to play that slider as mostly every dubstep has a low bpm which means you need a huge SV multiplier to at least make it possible. I made a 1/1 slider on bpm 75 with 2.4x SV and 2.0 miltiplier and there was no Hyper. Even increasing to 3.6 did not help. It might appear on higher bpm but for dubsteps, thats not a thing even if we allow it. Dubsteps are made in osu! already and they plays just fine in CtB as well, there is no need droplet Hypers to be added.

@Riari you were against CLSW's weird rhythm not so long ago, tell me, what is the difference between his rhythm and the droplet Hypers? If the beat only supports a droplet then why that should be a Hyper? Or if the beat is strong then why there is only a droplet? Musics with vocal has the highest chance to contain something similar, but thats just might happen. Personally I don't want to see mixed vocal and music rhythm. :c
Dubstep was just an example, I'm pretty awful at explaining things. I also think that there is a difference between a weird rhythm and the usage I am suggesting. I don't like stop/starting sliders for some things and I thought my example might explain that a bit better. I also think that there is a difference between mapping to create a rhythm and mapping a rhythm that is there in a slightly more creative but acceptable way.

It may only be a niche thing but that is why I suggested it as a guideline and not a rule. I objected repeaters because they follow something consistent whilst a droplet hyper could be something out of the blue within the song that could really add something special to it.

I hope this is explained a bit better.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Revising wording mostly.

First of all, the glossary is missing. Word like "timing jump" is horrendous and I told you to replace it dozens of times. It implies not what it actually is (timing? what timing? movement timing? BPM timing? note placement timing? what timing?). It sounds like wonky English and is misleading as hell.

General


Rules

  1. Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them. as no one defined what Timing jumps are, this rule is not understandable.
  2. Overall Difficulty must have the same value as the Approach Rate. This is just a standardized value, as OD does not affect gameplay nor the amount of fruits a spinner has, just the maximum score of a difficulty. never use abbreviations.
  3. Hyperdashes must not be used on droplets and/or slider repetitions. This is to prevent chaotic or unreasonably difficult slider movement. "must not be placed" is a better word, tbh. The reasoning is shallow. Why is it chaotic and unreasonable? This needs to go a tad more into the materia for this wording. Whenever you reached a conclusion on this specific bullet point, you should add a summary of the reasoning behind this to that rule.
Guidelines

  1. Ensure combos do not reach unreasonable lengths. Caught fruits will stack up on the plate and can potentially obstruct the player's view. Bear in mind that slider tails, repeats and spinner bananas also count as "fruits". this should mention that a NC clears the plate, for understandment reasons.
  2. Use the same slider tick rate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tick rates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless. "senseless" is very judgemental. there are sure maps that go with lower note density and want to work with higher tick rate instead (easier diffs mostly). Maybe add one sentence where you see a varying tick rate working, as example.
  3. Hyperdashes should not be used when the second object in the hyperjump is located near the left or right border of the play field. This creates an uncomfortable movement as the catcher is forcibly stopped upon reaching the border of the playfield. Try to leave at least 16 osupixels of space between the end point of the hyperjump and the border of the play field, respectively at x:16 or x:496 at most. "second object" refers to the destination of the hyper dash, right? Try to be more explicit then. Call the destination of a hyperdash as it is. Not "second object". It's confusing. Also why do you use Hyperdashes and hyperjumps? What's the difference? Other than that, this seems fine.

Skinning



Rules

  1. Custom catchers must be included in both v1 and v2 skin format. This is to ensure correct display on all skins. The required filenames are "fruit-ryuuta.png" (v1), "fruit-catcher-idle.png", "fruit-catcher-kiai.png" and "fruit-catcher-fail.png" (v2). this is silly. Why forcing backwards compatibility? I don't think this is what we want. Imagine we will add even more skin versions, do you want everyone to add 500 catcher sprites for the sake of all legacy layers? Nah.
  2. Custom fruits must include all necessary elements and be colored in a scale of grey colors. This is to ensure that your images are clearly defined and of acceptable quality. The needed elements can be found in the osu! wiki https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat#Fruits. Additionally, it is recommendable to use transparent elements for the overlays. what overlays? and why is transparent recommended?
Haskorion
533 posts
Joined September 2013
Haskorion

Loctav wrote:

Skinning



Rules

  1. Custom catchers must be included in both v1 and v2 skin format. This is to ensure correct display on all skins. The required filenames are "fruit-ryuuta.png" (v1), "fruit-catcher-idle.png", "fruit-catcher-kiai.png" and "fruit-catcher-fail.png" (v2). this is silly. Why forcing backwards compatibility? I don't think this is what we want. Imagine we will add even more skin versions, do you want everyone to add 500 catcher sprites for the sake of all legacy layers? Nah. To clarify this, there was an update on the cuttingedge release stream to make the catcher work in all versions, whereas the ryuuta only works if it is included and the player uses a skin supporting older versions than 2.3. It should be pushed to the stable (latest) release stream next update.
  2. Custom fruits must include all necessary elements and be colored in a scale of grey colors. This is to ensure that your images are clearly defined and of acceptable quality. The needed elements can be found in the osu! wiki https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat#Fruits. Additionally, it is recommendable to use transparent elements for the overlays. what overlays? and why is transparent recommended? The fruits are build similar as hitcircles consisting of a base and a overlay. The overlay should be transparent to make the combo colours as visible as possible.
Just dropping my knowledge as a skinner.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Yes, that explanation was better @Riari but I'm still not convinced perfectly. Although droplet Hypers might create something which is interesting, adding a Hyper out of the blue is not really acceptable to me. I will try this out on a few bpm to see if the movement at least 99% acceptable then I will might consider siding with move it to the guideline part. But by putting it there will only makes it possible to use in a rare (1%) cases. :p

@Loctav When I last saw and talked about the transparent overlay, it was "optional" and not "recommended". No idea here. :c
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
So today I was shown something with hyper droplets and while I still don't find it great or anything it's at least the best use of them I've seen, so can maybe use this to check how acceptable it can be: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/844497 One Dash Man diff
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, that explanation was better @Riari but I'm still not convinced perfectly. Although droplet Hypers might create something which is interesting, adding a Hyper out of the blue is not really acceptable to me. I will try this out on a few bpm to see if the movement at least 99% acceptable then I will might consider siding with move it to the guideline part. But by putting it there will only makes it possible to use in a rare (1%) cases. :p

@Loctav When I last saw and talked about the transparent overlay, it was "optional" and not "recommended". No idea here. :c
Maybe "out of the blue" was a bad way to put it but I was talking more about the song than the map.

I'd be happy with a guideline, I'm not looking for this to be thrown about willy-nilly
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Thanks everybody for the received feedback. We'll check every suggestion and deliberate in a short period of time if the changes are viable or not. Please wait a few days until we've worked out everything appropriately!
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
After some meetings with the rest of the members of the Criteria Council and some deliberation, we came up with some updates on the draft of the general ruleset. Check out the OP for them:
  1. Inclusion of glossary from original document
  2. Redefinition of timing jump to borderline dash
  3. Moved AR=OD to Guidelines and added caveat that OD cannot decrease over difficulties
  4. Clarified combo length guideline by adding NC clears plate
  5. Transfer of hyperdroplet rule to a guideline, should be used only on sliders with simple paths with explanation. Statement of intent for hyper usage on tails/repeats
  6. Gave an example of when STR can be changed, reworded some negative text
  7. Hdash border rule – clarified second object to destination, other issues clarified in Glossary
  8. V1 skins no longer required, will reword once skin update is rolled out to Stable builds
As a reminder: The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Contribute please
Haskorion
533 posts
Joined September 2013
Haskorion
The only thing I can contribute is that the skinning changes were already pushed to Stable (Latest). Don't wait for Stable (Fallback) as this stream is not intended to stay when osu!next comes afaik.
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False
Kill me c:
Last edited by xi-False , edited 17 times in total.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Deif wrote:

After some meetings with the rest of the members of the Criteria Council and some deliberation, we came up with some updates on the draft of the general ruleset. Check out the OP for them:
  1. Redefinition of timing jump to borderline dash
As a reminder: The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!

Can we reword this? a borderline dash makes it seem like a note you'd find in a cup or or a salad that you'd dash for when you don't need to in that situation.
Absolute Zero
Featured Artist
595 posts
Joined August 2014
Absolute Zero
Please notify me if anything i've said (in blue) is not necessarily true.

xi-False wrote:

Impossible Maps?- From what I know CTB maps are meant to be as smooth as possible and Have generally good flow. But we should be able to make maps as hard as "Odoru Mizushibuki"-Death Dance and have them still be rankable. And the reason why I say this is because in all honesty this does not effect the community very much. The only problem I see going on by allowing this to happen is more players mapping impossible maps. But even then Im pretty sure not everyone is going to do that. Also if you can't play the beat map that's what a full spread of for.
I mean, if you're able to pull it off, I don't see why you can't make a map as hard as that. It's just very hard to make an extremely difficult but well-liked map that doesn't have strange problems with it. The example you've given is a convert and those don't necessarily follow the same guidelines as specifics since they're made for standard, not CtB. We are not going to rank impossible maps, also. I hope, at least. There is no specific "rule" that bars the mapping of these maps, either.


Jumps-We should also allow 1/12 Jumps to be a thing, This sounds really crazy and i know that 1/12 jump are fairly easy and give tons of PP but until we start exploiting the PP algorithm system. The people in charge of handling that job will not make changes. Also For Example Exgon, his map "At the Speed of Light" is really fricken good, but not rankable. it's not impossible either. if all the other ruled applied to his beat map having a full spread and what not. I see no issues with allowing this to happen!(Side note: I also find it really annoying how OSU players brag about how much harder Standard is compared to CTB, that's only because Star difficulty for CTB is broken when it comes to hyper jumps)
1/8, 1/12, and 1/16 tend to be about context! Specifically, bpm. While it may be possible, a series of jumps can be uncomfortable or pretty awkward to play, and the less time there is, the more awkward it gets. This points more at, say, repeated 1/12 jumps, which are generally discouraged because of uncomfortable play. At the speed of light is not as much about the jumps more than the overall playability, I feel. And the 1/16 spinners. Remember that "good" is subjective, too!

Naming-Most recently Ascendance told me they did not allow him to change the Diff of his Beatmap to "Ascendance heaven". This is a pretty big problem, I really enjoy expressing myself through the names of my Difficulties which is part of the mapping experiance. I also don't see an issue with this, it's totally friendly kinda funny and does not affect other players much. yea they won't be able to find it if they type in overdose but the mapper should have more freedom when it comes to Naming His beat map. Secondly Difficulties are made to show progression on beatmap but this is a approval map I'm talking about their is no progression. Lastly i also think Difficulties names should not "Have" to show progression I should be able to call my 1* map overdose and my 7* map Salad just to give the mapper more freedom (Im just using this as an example i really don't want to name my 1* map overdose) I'll go backwards. We have naming conventions because SR is a really inaccurate measurement of difficulty. These naming conventions allow us to put general guidelines and also make it easier for us to sort difficulties. If we just had random names, then it would be very confusing to even judge each diff. The consistency is what makes the system easy to remember in the first place. The first point you brought up was rather not allowing the person to put their username in the diffname. There was no other real issue besides that, as far as I know.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

xi-False wrote:

Don't Nerf Our Maps, Nerf Our Ranking Criteria
What.

xi-False wrote:

Impossible Maps?- From what I know CTB maps are meant to be as smooth as possible and Have generally good flow. But we should be able to make maps as hard as "Odoru Mizushibuki"-Death Dance and have them still be rankable. And the reason why I say this is because in all honesty this does not effect the community very much. The only problem I see going on by allowing this to happen is more players mapping impossible maps. But even then Im pretty sure not everyone is going to do that. Also if you can't play the beat map that's what a full spread of for.
There's no limit to how hard a map can be, as long as the song is calling for it. Anyone with common sense wouldn't make an Overdose for Dango Daikazoku, for example.

xi-False wrote:

Jumps-We should also allow 1/12 Jumps to be a thing, This sounds really crazy and i know that 1/12 jump are fairly easy and give tons of PP but until we start exploiting the PP algorithm system. The people in charge of handling that job will not make changes. Also For Example Exgon, his map "At the Speed of Light" is really fricken good, but not rankable. it's not impossible either. if all the other ruled applied to his beat map having a full spread and what not. I see no issues with allowing this to happen!(Side note: I also find it really annoying how OSU players brag about how much harder Standard is compared to CTB, that's only because Star difficulty for CTB is broken when it comes to hyper jumps)
1/12 jumps are not unrankable by definition. I don't see a problem with that as long as they're used fine. Regarding Star Rating that's something we can't do anything about.

xi-False wrote:

More Jumps-Im not really familiar with Slider jumps but i know for a fact there are no ranked CTB Specific maps with good slider jumps, so if that's unrankable. please, allow us to rank that TwT
Slider jumps are based on a gameplay element that doesn't exist in CtB: slider leniency. In standard you don't have to release a slider perfectly in time, while in CtB you're required to catch that sliderend as not doing so will break the combo.

xi-False wrote:

Naming-Most recently Ascendance told me they did not allow him to change the Diff of his Beatmap to "Ascendance heaven". This is a pretty big problem, I really enjoy expressing myself through the names of my Difficulties which is part of the mapping experiance. I also don't see an issue with this, it's totally friendly kinda funny and does not affect other players much. yea they won't be able to find it if they type in overdose but the mapper should have more freedom when it comes to Naming His beat map. Secondly Difficulties are made to show progression on beatmap but this is a approval map I'm talking about their is no progression. Lastly i also think Difficulties names should not "Have" to show progression I should be able to call my 1* map overdose and my 7* map Salad just to give the mapper more freedom (Im just using this as an example i really don't want to name my 1* map overdose)
The thing with Ascendance's diff was already clarified and he should be able to name it like that. Secondly, you're able to use custom names as long as they properly convey their relative difficulty. And they should, because as you said, we cannot rely on Star Rating completely as it's somewhat broken.
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False

Absolute Zero wrote:

1/8, 1/12, and 1/16 tend to be about context! Specifically, bpm. While it may be possible, a series of jumps can be uncomfortable or pretty awkward to play, and the less time there is, the more awkward it gets. This points more at, say, repeated 1/12 jumps, which are generally discouraged because of uncomfortable play. At the speed of light is not as much about the jumps more than the overall playability, I feel. And the 1/16 spinners. Remember that "good" is subjective, too!
Good ZiRoX said they are rankable, if used properly :)


Absolute Zero wrote:

I'll go backwards. We have naming conventions because SR is a really inaccurate measurement of difficulty. These naming conventions allow us to put general guidelines and also make it easier for us to sort difficulties. If we just had random names, then it would be very confusing to even judge each diff. The consistency is what makes the system easy to remember in the first place.


Good point Absolute Zero. Even though this Rule is put in place for Consistency i will have to Disagree with you because. I can not imagen a large amount of mappers to name their Diffs with inconsistency over and over again. but at the same time I can't say for sure. Yes we might get one person be annoying and confuse you but this sacrifice of allowing a few people to do that will be worth it for the majority of people who will name their Difficulties within a reasonable name.

Also im Really Really sorry if i come off as Rude i dont wanna be rude to anyone TwT
Last edited by xi-False , edited 2 times in total.
BoberOfDarkness
1,061 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness
I can make overdose for dango but nobody likes CS8 :^)
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False

ZiRoX wrote:

There's no limit to how hard a map can be, as long as the song is calling for it. Anyone with common sense wouldn't make an Overdose for Dango Daikazoku, for example.
-Im not sure if you've played Odoru but, the spacing on that beatmap is Ridiculously hard. no one has FCed it yet in the CTB Community. but i know for a fact you can get an SS on it. im saying For Example, if i were to map "Odoru Mizushibuki"-Death Dance as it is right now, will it be rankable still?, with most of the jump being almost frame perfect.


ZiRoX wrote:

1/12 jumps are not unrankable by definition. I don't see a problem with that as long as they're used fine. Regarding Star Rating that's something we can't do anything about.
-true we cant change the star rating ourselves but in away we can. I believe if we were to allow High Star maps like 15 or 20 to be ranked. that will catch the attention of the people in charge of the Star system and maybe make them feel obligated to change it.


ZiRoX wrote:

Slider jumps are based on a gameplay element that doesn't exist in CtB: slider leniency. In standard you don't have to release a slider perfectly in time, while in CtB you're required to catch that sliderend as not doing so will break the combo.

-Is this unrankable then im not sure.


ZiRoX wrote:

The thing with Ascendance's diff was already clarified and he should be able to name it like that. Secondly, you're able to use custom names as long as they properly convey their relative difficulty. And they should, because as you said, we cannot rely on Star Rating completely as it's somewhat broken.
- I gave my Counter argument to Absolute Zero.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

Riari wrote:

Deif wrote:

  1. Redefinition of timing jump to borderline dash
Can we reword this? a borderline dash makes it seem like a note you'd find in a cup or or a salad that you'd dash for when you don't need to in that situation.

Suggestions on an alternative wording? "Timing jump" was just as vague :/

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I can make overdose for dango but nobody likes CS8 :^)

Nobody likes CS8 because it's inherently unrankable, as it requires editing of the .osu to achieve. Any alterations to this rule are not up for debate, as made clear by the game developers.

xi-False wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

There's no limit to how hard a map can be, as long as the song is calling for it. Anyone with common sense wouldn't make an Overdose for Dango Daikazoku, for example.
-Im not sure if you've played Odoru but, the spacing on that beatmap is Ridiculously hard. no one has FCed it yet in the CTB Community. but i know for a fact you can get an SS on it. im saying For Example, if i were to map "Odoru Mizushibuki"-Death Dance as it is right now, will it be rankable still?, with most of the jump being almost frame perfect.

Odoru is a convert map. It is not a specific. It is not intended to be played in this game mode. Further discussion using this as an example is likely to misguide us. CtB criteria should be based on what we want to see in specifics, not converts


ZiRoX wrote:

1/12 jumps are not unrankable by definition. I don't see a problem with that as long as they're used fine. Regarding Star Rating that's something we can't do anything about.
-true we cant change the star rating ourselves but in away we can. I believe if we were to allow High Star maps like 15 or 20 to be ranked. that will catch the attention of the people in charge of the Star system and maybe make them feel obligated to change it.

Deliberately breaking something to prove how broken it is isn't a solution. You wouldn't beat someone up to demonstrate that violence is wrong. Also, as has been mentioned the Star Rating system is flawed and easily manipulated with the right knowledge. Prevention is better than cure here.


ZiRoX wrote:

Slider jumps are based on a gameplay element that doesn't exist in CtB: slider leniency. In standard you don't have to release a slider perfectly in time, while in CtB you're required to catch that sliderend as not doing so will break the combo.
-Is this unrankable then im not sure.

It's irrelevant, as ZiRoX explained. Sliderjumps do not exist in CtB, so discussing their rankability is a moot point.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
The only 2 things I really wish to respond to are the argument for "Impossible maps" and difficulty names.

First off, impossible maps should and likely never be rankable, nothing in any game should be 100% unachievable, that's just silly, and I'm fairly certain the game developers have no desire to allow anything that no one is able to do. This does not mean you can't make extremely hard maps, but you're going to have one hell of a rough time getting them ranked, but should you choose try, then good luck.

And no, we do not need to be more flexible with difficulty names, as many people took advantage of it in the past to make difficulty names that made literally no sense for the sole purpose of being funny, not creativity, you still have plenty of freedom with the names, so there's not really any real creativity being disallowed.
Sorceress
332 posts
Joined September 2012
Sorceress

JBHyperion wrote:

Suggestions on an alternative wording? "Timing jump" was just as vague :/
Maybe "Borderline Hyperdash" or how about "Near Hyperdash". As Riari said, "Borderline Dash" sounds like a jump where the distance is far apart enough you almost need to dash but actually don't.
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False

Zak wrote:

The only 2 things I really wish to respond to are the argument for "Impossible maps" and difficulty names.

First off, impossible maps should and likely never be rankable, nothing in any game should be 100% unachievable, that's just silly, and I'm fairly certain the game developers have no desire to allow anything that no one is able to do. This does not mean you can't make extremely hard maps, but you're going to have one hell of a rough time getting them ranked, but should you choose try, then good luck.
Impossible Maps are just a Phares im using, I don't want Maps that are literally impossible to be ranked. Also how come maps that are Extremely hard, are of greater challenge to get ranked. Is it due to people just not mapping them correctly?

Zak wrote:

And no, we do not need to be more flexible with difficulty names, as many people took advantage of it in the past to make difficulty names that made literally no sense for the sole purpose of being funny, not creativity, you still have plenty of freedom with the names, so there's not really any real creativity being disallowed.
True truueee.
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False

JBHyperion wrote:

Odoru is a convert map. It is not a specific. It is not intended to be played in this game mode. Further discussion using this as an example is likely to misguide us. CtB criteria should be based on what we want to see in specifics, not converts
-I'm not sure how to put this but, i guess what I'm trying to say is even though it's a convert map, I would still like the CTB Ranking Criteria to be able to follow the spacing rules and difficulty jumps of Odoru not necessarily meaning i want to follow the rules of the osu-standard ranking critieria. I'm using "Odoru Mizushibuki"-Death Dance as an example of Difficulty. because the spacing of notes CS:size and Slider speed is what makes Odoru hard. maybe a better example would be Blastix by: CLSW



JBHyperion wrote:

Deliberately breaking something to prove how broken it is isn't a solution. You wouldn't beat someone up to demonstrate that violence is wrong. Also, as has been mentioned the Star Rating system is flawed and easily manipulated with the right knowledge. Prevention is better than cure here.
Good point xD
Do you think we can change that in the future perhaps?!


JBHyperion wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

Slider jumps are based on a gameplay element that doesn't exist in CtB: slider leniency. In standard you don't have to release a slider perfectly in time, while in CtB you're required to catch that sliderend as not doing so will break the combo.
-Is this unrankable then im not sure.

It's irrelevant, as ZiRoX explained. Sliderjumps do not exist in CtB, so discussing their rankability is a moot point.
Ok I've never used slider jumps. RIP Slider Jumps :(
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

xi-False wrote:

Impossible Maps are just a Phares im using, I don't want Maps that are literally impossible to be ranked. Also how come maps that are Extremely hard, are of greater challenge to get ranked. Is it due to people just not mapping them correctly?
That is part of the reason, another is the fact we just don't have anything CLOSE to the hardest we can actually have in ranked yet at all and several people wish for us to just jump straight to things that would end up being like 8+*, and that's just not the right way to go about it, we should make some sort of progression going further and further up as the community grows and evolves more, which also leads to another problem: the size of the community. We have so few modders/mappers as it is and even fewer that are actually qualified enough to actually deem those maps as ready and no one wants to just rank some 8* map just because only a few people went through and said it was acceptable, you generally want a lot more mods on any map and with something hard you usually want more than normal simply because you want to make sure it retains it's difficulty while still being fun instead of well... being difficult just to be difficult.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
Something that came to my mind while looking for skinning sets, taken from https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Skinning_Catch_the_Beat and https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1815373882 is the usage of the element "lighting.png", which appears on kiai times at the bottom of the screen following the path that the fruits would take while dropping.

That element also seems to be part of the skinnable elements of the catcher, but its usage is optional. A guideline in the Skinning section about this topic wouldn't hurt:

  1. Custom catchers can additionally include the element "lighting.png" to complete the skin set. This element is however optional to add and should only be used in non-osu! beatmaps.
Wording can be improved though :p

Also, self-reminder for the next meeting: I was told the definition of "borderline dashes" can be improved since it's currently not 100% clear.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Would like to see as a rule :

Using a shitload of spinners in a short period of time in order to manipulate spinner density should be banned from rankings as it consumes a big amount of ressources (memory and cpu). (You know what I mean try to rephrase this one :p)

-------------

Also there's a global rule wich make no sense in CtB:

A maximum of three slider velocities should be used (including 1x). For example, you could have a single map using 0.6x, 0.8x, and 1x; or 0.75x, 1x, and 1.5x; etc. If more than three slider velocities are used, then they should make sense and be intuitive. If slider velocity changes are able to be merged (e.g. close values like 0.8x and 0.7x) while still flowing/working correctly, then they should be.

In CtB you can get 14 different slider speed just by angling your sliders with only one SV used all map long. Actually this guideline should be std specific so it probably deserves another topic.

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About the amount of fruits in the plate:

I remember the case with sliders having a big amount of returns. Maybe in the guideline description you can explain that those sliders should be cut to create a new combo within the slider itself. This will not change the result in term of gameplay. Another option should be to remove them and map something else because they are ugly and uninterresting to play but heh.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
We talked about the spinners first and since there is a global rule which forbids two hitobject at the same time there is no need to include it here as well. As for the consecutive spinners, well, it won't hurt including it as it makes no sense since even the plate won't be empty by dividing it.

About the slider velocity rule, the global part of the RC is on the way with the changes as well (I hope). There is no need to worry about it now, just ignore it.

As for the sliders, maybe we can make a rule "Do not have more than 4 repeat on a slider, because its not interesting to play and generates repetitive movement."
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif

Kurokami wrote:

As for the sliders, maybe we can make a rule "Do not have more than 4 repeat on a slider, because its not interesting to play and generates repetitive movement."
I disagree with such a rule. Don't forget kicksliders are an important element that can be used in difficulties probably from Platter on.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
The main idea for the slider returns is about avoiding too much fruits in the plate (more than making nice patterns). For example you have a 15 returns slider (16 fruits in total) but the guideline limits you to 8 fruits in the plate you should create instead 2 sliders of 7 returns with new combos, one on top of the other one, the only difference is that the plate will empty midway to fit with the guideline.

It's more a mapping technique but it could be useful to new mappers to have a tip on how to easily get a rankable slider without affecting the gameplay, and at the same time save explanations by modders.

Could be worded to something like :
[...] If you feel to map a slider having more than the difficulty fruit limit in the plate due to a huge amount of returns, you should split it to tiny sliders having an allowed amount of fruits and new combos in order to empty the plate during the slider.

Kurokami wrote:

We talked about the spinners first and since there is a global rule which forbids two hitobject at the same time there is no need to include it here as well. As for the consecutive spinners, well, it won't hurt including it as it makes no sense since even the plate won't be empty by dividing it.
Yes, I was talking about consecutive spinners. Hitobjects overlap are autobanned by the general rule indeed.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
@Deif I did not talk about kick sliders. That is for 1/2, 1/1s. Anything above should be fine since there is no movement at all.
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