abraker wrote:

OT!Economy would allow every denizen to spend osu!coins or OT!bucks on posts and get osu!coins or OT!bucks on threads. It's a points system like thread necro and would have a thread listing top richest denizns.

- Denizens who make threads have to pay OT Government for the thread
- Denizens who make posts have to pay thread owner to post + tax to OT Government
- Denizens can also buy threads from other denizens if they want to

I tried implementing it this summer and had it running, but I didnt like mechanics because it wasn't as fun/interesting as I hoped it would be, and so I scrapped it. I am still trying to figure out if there is a way to make the mechanics work in a more fun and exciting way.

Karmine wrote:

Oh no.

Corne2Plum3 wrote:

Please don't import capitalism here

Patatitta wrote:

already heavily discussed it back in the day, if you found out, you would probably also have seen my criticism on it


people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

hyperastro wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

already heavily discussed it back in the day, if you found out, you would probably also have seen my criticism on it


people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

I have seen your old criticism of it!

But (at least with the changes I suggested). I don't think the system is that farmable. If people create bad threads and the threads get locked they pay a heavy fine (acts a farming deterrent) you can only get OT!Bucks by creating posts or if someone transfers it to you. I think the system if tuned would work very well. + it would allow for new types of threads which we haven't yet seen on OT.

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

already heavily discussed it back in the day, if you found out, you would probably also have seen my criticism on it


people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

I have seen your old criticism of it!

But (at least with the changes I suggested). I don't think the system is that farmable. If people create bad threads and the threads get locked they pay a heavy fine (acts a farming deterrent) you can only get OT!Bucks by creating posts or if someone transfers it to you. I think the system if tuned would work very well. + it would allow for new types of threads which we haven't yet seen on OT.

that would imply to go back to a era where GMT just lock threads because they don't like it, I don't want to return to that

anyways, stop trying to give ideas to try to increase the "engagement" of ot really

Patatitta wrote:

yeah you're an engagement addict in my head, also, I don't think it would do good to OT, first of all, if we follow abraker original idea, you're paying in order to be able to post, that would lead to people making shit threads in order to be able to get money to post stuff, and if gmts lock every "low quality" thread and get's a fine, then OT is dead right on the water. It wouldn't widen the possible threads you can make, the opposite is true in fact, it would actively kill every thread that is not meant to be engagement friendly.

also, making denizen more exclusive is not a good idea, creating a capitalistic system inside OT and then adding fucking class seperation in it is a absolutelly terrible idea, having a leaderboard of the moeny of everyone would only increase friction and drama even more, which is even a more terrible idea, if you can buy threads from other people then someone will end up accumulating all the OT bucks which would be insanely catastrophic

Also, imagine making a thread, and people not responding on it because they don't want to waste their money in your thread, we don't want that

Corne2Plum3 wrote:

I don't plan to lock threads I don't like (unless they break the rules ofc)

Patatitta wrote:

people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

Ymir wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

you just sold the idea better than he did

@everyone invest in hyperastro coin right now

z0z wrote:

we don't need incentives to post *vaguely gestures to social media*

hyperastro wrote:

Ok, I see where you are coming from but that is not the objective of my current idea of OT! Economy. Could it act as a incentive for people to post more? Sure it can. But that is not the main goal.

Imo OT!Economy would have these positives:

- More original threads can be created using OT!Economy as a theme or a backbone to the thread.
- Denizen deflation

in turn it could also bring:
- More Posts
- More engagement
But both or these things aren't necessarily good as Patatitta mentioned.

Although we can minimize these "drawbacks" with smart design.

tapperruiii wrote:

seems completely unnecessary

hyperastro wrote:

tapperruiii wrote:

seems completely unnecessary

Why invent a vacuum when you have a broom?
Why invent NFC payments when you have a credit card?
Why invent the dishwasher when you have women?

All of these things seemed unnecessary but became core features of our lives.
How do you know OT!Economy is not the same thing???

(ok but now fr)
Could you please elaborate why it is unnecessary?

I think it solves some important issues and also opens doors for more creativity in OT. It is super simple to implement and would be very simple to use and understand. The only real issue is user adoption.
Sure OT!Economy has some details that need to be ironed out but they aren't that complex to fix

tapperruiii wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

tapperruiii wrote:

seems completely unnecessary

Why invent a vacuum when you have a broom?
Why invent NFC payments when you have a credit card?
Why invent the dishwasher when you have women?

All of these things seemed unnecessary but became core features of our lives.
How do you know OT!Economy is not the same thing???

(ok but now fr)
Could you please elaborate why it is unnecessary?

I think it solves some important issues and also opens doors for more creativity in OT. It is super simple to implement and would be very simple to use and understand. The only real issue is user adoption.
Sure OT!Economy has some details that need to be ironed out but they aren't that complex to fix

i think that adding something along these lines would basically gamify threads and that is lame

Polyspora wrote:

stinky

Thank you for that important piece of feedback

idk wtf i am doing

hyperastro wrote:

Tbh I don't get what you mean about class separation? that already exists in OT and it wouldn't get worse if we added OT!Economy. Money leaderboard wouldn't create drama either imo. all transactions can be traced. it's a transparent system you literally have to reply to a thread to send money.

hyperastro wrote:

Ymir wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

you just sold the idea better than he did

@everyone invest in hyperastro coin right now

Patatitta best salesman 🙏

z0z wrote:

we don't need incentives to post *vaguely gestures to social media*

Ok, I see where you are coming from but that is not the objective of my current idea of OT! Economy. Could it act as a incentive for people to post more? Sure it can. But that is not the main goal.

Imo OT!Economy would have these positives:

- More original threads can be created using OT!Economy as a theme or a backbone to the thread.
- Denizen deflation

in turn it could also bring:
- More Posts
- More engagement
But both or these things aren't necessarily good as Patatitta mentioned.

Although we can minimize these "drawbacks" with smart design.

hyperastro wrote:

tapperruiii wrote:

seems completely unnecessary

Why invent a vacuum when you have a broom?
Why invent NFC payments when you have a credit card?
Why invent the dishwasher when you have women?

All of these things seemed unnecessary but became core features of our lives.
How do you know OT!Economy is not the same thing???

(ok but now fr)
Could you please elaborate why it is unnecessary?

I think it solves some important issues and also opens doors for more creativity in OT. It is super simple to implement and would be very simple to use and understand. The only real issue is user adoption.
Sure OT!Economy has some details that need to be ironed out but they aren't that complex to fix

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Ymir wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

you just sold the idea better than he did

@everyone invest in hyperastro coin right now

Patatitta best salesman 🙏

z0z wrote:

we don't need incentives to post *vaguely gestures to social media*

Ok, I see where you are coming from but that is not the objective of my current idea of OT! Economy. Could it act as a incentive for people to post more? Sure it can. But that is not the main goal.

Imo OT!Economy would have these positives:

- More original threads can be created using OT!Economy as a theme or a backbone to the thread.
- Denizen deflation

in turn it could also bring:
- More Posts
- More engagement
But both or these things aren't necessarily good as Patatitta mentioned.

Although we can minimize these "drawbacks" with smart design.

it's not that simple, adding something like that may highly affect the culture of OT, chaning it irreversably. Let's look at an example, twitter, they added that you could win money with your tweets, in theory this is something optional that most people wont take advantage of and you should just ignore, you can engage with the system if you want or not, despite that, we can see that twitter changed MASSIVELY from the point that got implemented to a place I would argue most people would agree it's worse

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Tbh I don't get what you mean about class separation? that already exists in OT and it wouldn't get worse if we added OT!Economy. Money leaderboard wouldn't create drama either imo. all transactions can be traced. it's a transparent system you literally have to reply to a thread to send money.

it currently doesn't exist in the way that you're suggesting, in the past, when titles like denizen where given a prestige, what would happen is that it would create this conflict between the new users and the old guard, one of the biggest talking point in denizen debates is how to mitigate that conflict. Having to earn denizen would once again give it a level of prestige and wouild end up dividing us again

Adding a leaderboard is more of the same, you're giving people a incentive to compete in the system, which would be bad, since the most optimal way to compete is farm, and farming would actively harm OT.

Also, new people who are not denizen or may lose denizen may once again farm to get it, which would not be good for OT.

hyperastro wrote:

Ymir wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

people are going to farm it, and it's going to be toxic, and make OT a worse place

you just sold the idea better than he did

@everyone invest in hyperastro coin right now

Patatitta best salesman 🙏

z0z wrote:

we don't need incentives to post *vaguely gestures to social media*

Ok, I see where you are coming from but that is not the objective of my current idea of OT! Economy. Could it act as a incentive for people to post more? Sure it can. But that is not the main goal.

Imo OT!Economy would have these positives:

- More original threads can be created using OT!Economy as a theme or a backbone to the thread.
- Denizen deflation

in turn it could also bring:
- More Posts
- More engagement
But both or these things aren't necessarily good as Patatitta mentioned.

Although we can minimize these "drawbacks" with smart design.

it's not that simple, adding something like that may highly affect the culture of OT, chaning it irreversably. Let's look at an example, twitter, they added that you could win money with your tweets, in theory this is something optional that most people wont take advantage of and you should just ignore, you can engage with the system if you want or not, despite that, we can see that twitter changed MASSIVELY from the point that got implemented to a place I would argue most people would agree it's worse

hyperastro wrote:

tapperruiii wrote:

seems completely unnecessary

Why invent a vacuum when you have a broom?
Why invent NFC payments when you have a credit card?
Why invent the dishwasher when you have women?

All of these things seemed unnecessary but became core features of our lives.
How do you know OT!Economy is not the same thing???

(ok but now fr)
Could you please elaborate why it is unnecessary?

I think it solves some important issues and also opens doors for more creativity in OT. It is super simple to implement and would be very simple to use and understand. The only real issue is user adoption.
Sure OT!Economy has some details that need to be ironed out but they aren't that complex to fix

this is not a fair comparasion, the vacuum, nfc, dishwasher, etc, are things that are meant to reduce human labour, they do the task the previous one did even more effectively, this is closer to when twitter or reddit added that you could earn money via them. And as I explained negatively what you're explaining isn't all advantages with no drawbacks, you're encouraging for people to just make threads for the sake of making threads, creating classism, and adding elements that encourage people to compete, oT may be end up being flooded by worthless posts made just to farm moneyand the vibes between members would be a lot worse

Also yes, this is gamifying, you have a regular activity that you're turning into a game

hyperastro wrote:

I don’t think OT!Economy would create worse class divisions than systems we’ve already had

hyperastro wrote:

Denizen itself started as an experiment that eventually shaped OT’s culture in big ways. If we shut down new ideas out of fear of classism, we might also shut down potential growth. And if clubs or groups form around OT!Economy, that would be a natural development of the community, not an inherent flaw of the system. Abraker created denizen and later denizen was used as a tool to create the role you hold today as OT!President. OT!Economy in this sense could also be used as a tool to further develop OT.

hyperastro wrote:

Your right people might post farm to get more money even if we try to minimize does risks through fines or other means. but I think that people are more likely to care about something like OT!Eras or Denizen if they want to farm to leave some sort of "legacy" behind not only would OT!Eras and Denizen be a lot more permanent way of "leaving a mark" it would also be more achievable since Eras and Denizen have pre-set criteria while OT!Economy would be a ever evolving system where the bar gets set higher and higher. When it comes to post farming I have no solution and I don't think it exists but I also do not believe that OT!Economy would not be a major target.

hyperastro wrote:

I don't think they would. Here is why. OT!Eras which to my understanding currently holds more practical value than being denizen is not farmed. Why is it not farmed? because you came up with a system that disincentivized farming since it resets each year so it's not worth it to farm each year consistently. Now OT!Economy does not reset each year like eras, but how many people would really lose denizen and then grind back 8 months of consistent posting just to get the title back? Not many. I think OT!Economy would be balanced in that aspect and Denizen deflation would work. Now would it create drama? Yes of course it would but any change creates drama and we as a community have to learn to deal with it.

hyperastro wrote:

I'll concede on this. After thinking about it some more I see why you guys interpret OT!Economy as a gamification almost gacha like system. But this is not a inherent issue we can minimize this issue with smarter design make it feel less game like.

Think about all of the positive that could come from this. I know that you as president and as a integral member of OT have to always think from the perspective of "What flaws does this have?", "How can this be exploited?" but consider all the creativity that can sprout from OT!Economy and how OT might develop positively thanks to it. I think we should all give it a moment of thought and consider the possibility of "What if we adopted OT!Economy"

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

I don’t think OT!Economy would create worse class divisions than systems we’ve already had

Same as previous is already bad enough, there is a rason why we moved away from it

hyperastro wrote:

Denizen itself started as an experiment that eventually shaped OT’s culture in big ways. If we shut down new ideas out of fear of classism, we might also shut down potential growth. And if clubs or groups form around OT!Economy, that would be a natural development of the community, not an inherent flaw of the system. Abraker created denizen and later denizen was used as a tool to create the role you hold today as OT!President. OT!Economy in this sense could also be used as a tool to further develop OT.

Two problems with first statement, first of all, we're turning ideas because of classism precisely because of denizen. We didn't know what would happen back then, and now we do, we've learnt from out mistakes and promised to not do it again. Let's say, I have a good idea for a weapon that involves using pancakes as projectiles, however we found out that pancakes are too weak of a projectile and will explode in the barrel, damaging the person using the weapon. We try the weapon and it fails and it explodes and someone gets hurt, then you come and say "oh well we musn't refuse new ideas because of the fear of pancakes exploding in the barrel and harming the user". We've already learnt that using pancakes in the first place is a bad idea, that was the whole takeaway from that experiment, additionally, it's something so specific that honestly it's weird that would repeat itself even twice, in fact the only reason why you're even talking about denizen it's because you've heard about it before, because you heard of the first pancake experiment and are choosing to iterate upon it

We need to learn from our mistakes, not repeat then, not like that there are that many potentially good ideas out there that would create social sefgregation inside this internet forum

Second problem, how do you think OT grows?, let's say, me and 5 people come in, we put our life to make the best and coolest threads OT has ever seen and we do it for a month straight, would that help ot grow?, I would argue no. OT growth is limited by the willingness of people to even check the forum in the first place, we can't just help grow ot by just making quality threads, it doesn't work that way, if you want to expand ot you need to do marketing outwards, you can't expect the economy system to bring more people unless you also actively plan to advertise it elsewhere.

hyperastro wrote:

Your right people might post farm to get more money even if we try to minimize does risks through fines or other means. but I think that people are more likely to care about something like OT!Eras or Denizen if they want to farm to leave some sort of "legacy" behind not only would OT!Eras and Denizen be a lot more permanent way of "leaving a mark" it would also be more achievable since Eras and Denizen have pre-set criteria while OT!Economy would be a ever evolving system where the bar gets set higher and higher. When it comes to post farming I have no solution and I don't think it exists but I also do not believe that OT!Economy would not be a major target.

I already explained it to you in the past, no, it wouldn't work that way, eras and currently even denizen carry no weight, however, your version of denizen WOULD carry weight, people want to have the thing with weight, not the thing without it. It's not about leaving a mark, it's about being part of the cool kids club. And yes, people would farm it, like people farmed denizen in the past, it's really not worth it.

Also, "the bar gets higher and higher"? if that is the case, then new users would be on a disadvantage if the economy has already been going for a long while

hyperastro wrote:

I don't think they would. Here is why. OT!Eras which to my understanding currently holds more practical value than being denizen is not farmed. Why is it not farmed? because you came up with a system that disincentivized farming since it resets each year so it's not worth it to farm each year consistently. Now OT!Economy does not reset each year like eras, but how many people would really lose denizen and then grind back 8 months of consistent posting just to get the title back? Not many. I think OT!Economy would be balanced in that aspect and Denizen deflation would work. Now would it create drama? Yes of course it would but any change creates drama and we as a community have to learn to deal with it.

Same response as above, the reason why people don't farm eras isn't because it resets, it's because people don't give a shit about it. If we considered people in era to be superior or cooler, then yeah, people would farm it even if it resets.

hyperastro wrote:

I'll concede on this. After thinking about it some more I see why you guys interpret OT!Economy as a gamification almost gacha like system. But this is not a inherent issue we can minimize this issue with smarter design make it feel less game like.

Think about all of the positive that could come from this. I know that you as president and as a integral member of OT have to always think from the perspective of "What flaws does this have?", "How can this be exploited?" but consider all the creativity that can sprout from OT!Economy and how OT might develop positively thanks to it. I think we should all give it a moment of thought and consider the possibility of "What if we adopted OT!Economy"

As I explained earlier, it would be a net negative for ot, it wouldn't help growth, it would divide the community, and the threads you can make using the economy that you can't do already are limited and not that good. Shops? we already have it, gambling?, can already be done, real estate RP?, already done

given that all these things can already be done, why try to make a global system?, wouldn't it limit creativity if someone wants their shop thread to have a different way of operating the economy? you can say they can just ignore the economy and make their own thing, but wouldn't people be enraged by going "I put all of this work in order to get money, only for you to come in and reject it"?

tapperruiii wrote:

jesus fucking christ patatitta how do you type this much so fast

hyperastro wrote:

Classism and hierarchy: You’re OT!President!!! you’ve told me yourself that you can make changes others can’t. That’s literally class in action. I’m just pointing out that OT!Economy wouldn’t create worse class divisions than already exist + I have read denizen discussions it's always the same vocal minority.

hyperastro wrote:

Growth vs. culture: When I talk about OT growth, I mean cultural growth. I don’t want OT to be only high-effort posts. I love seeing retarded threads at 2 am from across the world. we both know there needs to be a balance of these 2 for OT to be healthy and OT!Economy would not tip the balance in any sides favor.

hyperastro wrote:

Learning from the past: I’m not saying we’re repeating mistakes. We iterate. People have complained Denizen feels stale or meaningless. OT!Economy is an attempt to address that, not to copy old failures. If pancakes are weak ammunition we change them for waffles.

hyperastro wrote:

Global system benefits: Using OT!Bucks across threads isn’t just about creating currency. it connects interactive threads together. It allows people to engage in new ways, and the creativity that can come out of it outweighs the downsides. I know this will get so much hate but it like a "OT meta-verse" threads can seemingly be interconnected by adopting a standardized system. Also what about all the threads that could have existed if OT!Economy was implemented but they didn't all of that potential creativity gone. your argument is Zero Sum you are only looking at this from the negatives. I don't blame you for that the name I know that the name alone makes it sound bad.

hyperastro wrote:

If you are down for it at least write down the positives a system like this could bring just so I make sure we are in the same page.

hyperastro wrote:

Also bro how do you type at 220WPM? you got to do competitive typing Farfocele is going to be scared if you compete against him...

Karmine wrote:

OT is so dead rn.

Patatitta wrote:

You know what? Since i'm the mf president of this shit we should double the taxes and blame the non-denizens

hyperastro wrote:

You know what? We should FUCKING QUADRUPLE THE TAXES ON MARCO FUCK THAT GUY lol.

Ymir wrote:

mods put a cock on this thread

Patatitta wrote:

not a fair comparasion, it's true that i'm on a different class, but the way it works currently, I don't look down upon people, and people don't really seem to look down upon me, it's not something that is farmeable either, there are elections yearly and that's it. While there is classes, there is no class conflict, the denizen system you suggesting would create class conflict, it would revert denizen probably to the same level of importance if not even more than what we had in the past

Patatitta wrote:

cultural growth according to who?, most people in this thread seem to oppose the idea, I don't think they would consider implemententing capitalism as "cultural growth"

Patatitta wrote:

people don't really care about denizen anymore, like poly said in the discord, even he doesn't give that much of a shit nowadays, denizen feeling stale or meaningless is NOT a problem in current OT, maybe it was 2 years ago when the shift happened, but like, time passes and problems change, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Unless you consider denizen to be this immutable and immortal tenant of OT that MUST be cared for and salvaged and a central point of OT and that for us to move away from it is inherently negative, if that is the case, I must ask you why do you think that way

Patatitta wrote:

OT meva-verse you really need to start to choose your words better, you're digging yourself deeper into a hole

Patatitta wrote:

I don't see as those "interconnected" threads to really be a positive, you're seeing from the point of view of someone who has money, but let's look at it the opposite way. New user comes in, every thread requires money, until they get themselves a good ammount of moeny that would take a good chunk of time of making new threads daily (which would jus be postign for the sake of posting which would damage OT IMO) they would be locked out of a large chunk of OT. Yeah you have starting money but for how long that would last? That is also why the denizen requirement for threads was dropped even before I started making changes in OT, we're excluding people

What you're doing isn't creating something new, it's locking and restricting what people can already do. I can make a shop, give everyone 500 bucks and make them do stuff, the thread works and it's fun, but now I make a shop and I don't give anyone money, and instead you have to do this unrelated thing in order to get money in order to partake in the thread. Is the fact that they're "interconnected" really that cool of a concept?, I really would beg to difeer

Patatitta wrote:

I don't really see any positives, of course you would feel cool if you had a lot of money and whatever, but like, taht would be harmful to OT as a whole, the "unique" threads you can do aren't really unique at all, and the interconnectedness of it's all is neither cool or good.

hyperastro wrote:

Patatitta wrote:

not a fair comparasion, it's true that i'm on a different class, but the way it works currently, I don't look down upon people, and people don't really seem to look down upon me, it's not something that is farmeable either, there are elections yearly and that's it. While there is classes, there is no class conflict, the denizen system you suggesting would create class conflict, it would revert denizen probably to the same level of importance if not even more than what we had in the past

Ok you don't look down upon people. But the role of OT!President still allows for classim to exist and for the role to hold a toxic position. You as a person choose not to be toxic or to "talk down" to others it's not the role that is toxic but the person wielding it. (I think I am starting to steer away from the main argument here.) I still think that denizen or any other role wouldn't result in toxicity. I think people generally don't need a role to look down on others (sure it helps) but I think this has more to do with the Person than the role. I also think that most OT users have grown up more since Denizen faded out. I believe Denizen was so toxic to begin with because oldfags overall were toxic as shit. If Denizen or any new system of the sorts was implemented I think it wouldn't end up toxic because the whole community is less toxic as a whole.

Patatitta wrote:

cultural growth according to who?, most people in this thread seem to oppose the idea, I don't think they would consider implemententing capitalism as "cultural growth"

According to me. Yes you are right the overall all reception to the idea is garbage. but since something like this has never been implemented in the past we have nothing to compare against. We can only hypothesize what might happen. I still do think it would develop OT!Culture.

Patatitta wrote:

people don't really care about denizen anymore, like poly said in the discord, even he doesn't give that much of a shit nowadays, denizen feeling stale or meaningless is NOT a problem in current OT, maybe it was 2 years ago when the shift happened, but like, time passes and problems change, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Unless you consider denizen to be this immutable and immortal tenant of OT that MUST be cared for and salvaged and a central point of OT and that for us to move away from it is inherently negative, if that is the case, I must ask you why do you think that way

This is fair, it's true that no one cares much for denizen anymore. That is what denizen deflation was meant to fix. Now do I consider denizen a immortal tenant of OT? No, I wasn't even around when denizen was relevant. Unlike most people tho I do find denizen to be a interesting premise that could be better iterated upon. other than the classism issue, the main issue with denizen is that it holds no value and that is what I am trying to fix. From your perspective since you don't care about denizen and you straight up think its a bad thing of course you see my idea as a nothing burger that fixes shit. But in theory it would fix denizen although it might not be the best method to do so from what you have been telling me. I also understand that OT has moved on from denizen, but I still think its worth fighting for something that I find to be a overall net-positive.

Patatitta wrote:

OT meva-verse you really need to start to choose your words better, you're digging yourself deeper into a hole

Ok, lets imagine I never said this... (shooting myself in the foot fr fr)

Patatitta wrote:

I don't see as those "interconnected" threads to really be a positive, you're seeing from the point of view of someone who has money, but let's look at it the opposite way. New user comes in, every thread requires money, until they get themselves a good ammount of moeny that would take a good chunk of time of making new threads daily (which would jus be postign for the sake of posting which would damage OT IMO) they would be locked out of a large chunk of OT. Yeah you have starting money but for how long that would last? That is also why the denizen requirement for threads was dropped even before I started making changes in OT, we're excluding people

What you're doing isn't creating something new, it's locking and restricting what people can already do. I can make a shop, give everyone 500 bucks and make them do stuff, the thread works and it's fun, but now I make a shop and I don't give anyone money, and instead you have to do this unrelated thing in order to get money in order to partake in the thread. Is the fact that they're "interconnected" really that cool of a concept?, I really would beg to difeer

Out of all the things you said this one is the one I sympathize most with and agree most with you on. Your right I didn't consider it from that point-of-view. OT!Economy would lock out people from threads (including me, if it were to be implemented now). But I do think that there is a solution somewhere for this. We could make it not denizen exclusive and each new user on the forums starts with X number of OT!Bucks. I do think interconnected threads could still work tho.

Patatitta wrote:

I don't really see any positives, of course you would feel cool if you had a lot of money and whatever, but like, taht would be harmful to OT as a whole, the "unique" threads you can do aren't really unique at all, and the interconnectedness of it's all is neither cool or good.

I find it weird that you don't see any positives. I understand that you think this idea is shit. Fair enough. but not being able to see a single positive is odd. You might need to take off your Doomer glasses...


Conclusion: Thank you (specifically you Patatitta) for at least caring enough to explain to me your viewpoint and go back and fourth with me on this tangent. I still think that this could work but as you mentioned with all the negative community sentiment and current issues with my implementation it's not worth persuing right now. Maybe in the future we will have this discussion again but looking at it from a different lens. who knows?

Gengar9nn wrote:

TL;DR

hyperastro wrote:

Gengar9nn wrote:

TL;DR

TL;DR

Potato man does not like idea for the following reasons:

-gives prestige back to denizen (creating classism)
-Current implementation of OT!Economy will lock new users out of it
-OT!Economy would not contribute to OT culture in positive ways
-OT!Economy might create drama and fragment the community (refers back to the denizen prestige)
-OT!Economy incentives post farming

Portuguese boii argues:

-Won't contribute to classim since that is not due to the role of denizen but due to the people that posses it
-Agrees with potato man but thinks there are solutions around this issue (all users get a initial amount of money & no longer lock OT!Economy to denizens)

-PT boii argues that OT!Economy would create opportunists for new interconnected threads and would give a new layer of dimensionality to OT

-All changes create drama and we shouldn't avoid changes based on the drama they create if it's for a good cause otherwise things will become stale

-PT boii argues OT!Economy would not incentivize post farming because users would grind denizen or OT!Eras because they are permanent and a better way of leaving a "legacy" behind than being rich on OT!Economy which is a dynamic system.


understand that I wrote this so it might have some bias... or possible misrepresentation of certain ideas. Patatitta gave some good and real responses so reading the whole thing might be a good idea if you are interested.

hyperastro wrote:

Ok you don't look down upon people. But the role of OT!President still allows for classim to exist and for the role to hold a toxic position. You as a person choose not to be toxic or to "talk down" to others it's not the role that is toxic but the person wielding it. (I think I am starting to steer away from the main argument here.) I still think that denizen or any other role wouldn't result in toxicity. I think people generally don't need a role to look down on others (sure it helps) but I think this has more to do with the Person than the role. I also think that most OT users have grown up more since Denizen faded out. I believe Denizen was so toxic to begin with because oldfags overall were toxic as shit. If Denizen or any new system of the sorts was implemented I think it wouldn't end up toxic because the whole community is less toxic as a whole.

hyperastro wrote:

According to me. Yes you are right the overall all reception to the idea is garbage. but since something like this has never been implemented in the past we have nothing to compare against. We can only hypothesize what might happen. I still do think it would develop OT!Culture.

hyperastro wrote:

This is fair, it's true that no one cares much for denizen anymore. That is what denizen deflation was meant to fix. Now do I consider denizen a immortal tenant of OT? No, I wasn't even around when denizen was relevant. Unlike most people tho I do find denizen to be a interesting premise that could be better iterated upon. other than the classism issue, the main issue with denizen is that it holds no value and that is what I am trying to fix. From your perspective since you don't care about denizen and you straight up think its a bad thing of course you see my idea as a nothing burger that fixes shit. But in theory it would fix denizen although it might not be the best method to do so from what you have been telling me. I also understand that OT has moved on from denizen, but I still think its worth fighting for something that I find to be a overall net-positive.

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Ok you don't look down upon people. But the role of OT!President still allows for classim to exist and for the role to hold a toxic position. You as a person choose not to be toxic or to "talk down" to others it's not the role that is toxic but the person wielding it. (I think I am starting to steer away from the main argument here.) I still think that denizen or any other role wouldn't result in toxicity. I think people generally don't need a role to look down on others (sure it helps) but I think this has more to do with the Person than the role. I also think that most OT users have grown up more since Denizen faded out. I believe Denizen was so toxic to begin with because oldfags overall were toxic as shit. If Denizen or any new system of the sorts was implemented I think it wouldn't end up toxic because the whole community is less toxic as a whole.

are you contradicting yourself here?, you claim that something like the role of president is inherently toxic, but that i've just been able to sidetrack those problems because I am I, but then you're saying that denizen is fine and that it was just the fault of the people. So it's the role or it's the people?

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

This is fair, it's true that no one cares much for denizen anymore. That is what denizen deflation was meant to fix. Now do I consider denizen a immortal tenant of OT? No, I wasn't even around when denizen was relevant. Unlike most people tho I do find denizen to be a interesting premise that could be better iterated upon. other than the classism issue, the main issue with denizen is that it holds no value and that is what I am trying to fix. From your perspective since you don't care about denizen and you straight up think its a bad thing of course you see my idea as a nothing burger that fixes shit. But in theory it would fix denizen although it might not be the best method to do so from what you have been telling me. I also understand that OT has moved on from denizen, but I still think its worth fighting for something that I find to be a overall net-positive.

Why denizen tho?, why not make up your own system, why just specifically try to revive that? While past OT lroe is cool, I feel at some point we should just move on and try new things, not just revive old stuff. We can't be in 2030 stil talking about RP and lore and denizen. I just don't get why you would want to revive denizen in the first place, what benefit would that bring

hyperastro wrote:

I just noticed I write like a troglodyte. Let me explain again what I meant. Hopefully in better words. Any role might that be president or denizen is not toxic but the people are. It's an issue of culture and I feel like currently OT culture is really positive and I don't think it would become toxic like it was back then. So if we brought back denizen their would be less toxicity.

hyperastro wrote:

The reason I wouldn't make my own system is because then OT has to many titles/things. (Denizen + Eras + New system) I think it would just complicate things. And yes I am aware that changing denizen also complicates things. But I think its less complex than having a lot of different systems that at the end of the day all do the same thing. Also because as you said lore is cool af. denizen was and kind of still is a staple in OT. So I would rather modify something that everyone is familiar with than create my own thing.

Finally, If I made a new-system, then other users might also make new systems and it will end up discrediting mine. If I change a already pre-established system (like denizen) it minimizes that situation.

hyperastro wrote:

Finally, If I made a new-system, then other users might also make new systems and it will end up discrediting mine. If I change a already pre-established system (like denizen) it minimizes that situation.

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Finally, If I made a new-system, then other users might also make new systems and it will end up discrediting mine. If I change a already pre-established system (like denizen) it minimizes that situation.

I don't think there is title creep in OT, some just fade out of reference so they don't matter, like the upper echelon of abraker, that was forgotten, if you do a new system, denizen may be forgotten, I don't think that should be a worry of yours

Patatitta wrote:

hyperastro wrote:

Finally, If I made a new-system, then other users might also make new systems and it will end up discrediting mine. If I change a already pre-established system (like denizen) it minimizes that situation.

... isn't this a good thing?, if people don't like your system, they SHOULD create their own better version of it, that's how we get advancement in OT, hell, I created eras because I was unhappy with denizen, in the thread I made previous to eras I even encouraged people to do their own verison of systems they're unhappy with. I feel like just trying to modify denizen in order to prevent people from making their own changes feel too much like holding people hostage, it reads like you want YOUR change to stick and for no one else to really try to do the same. I wish to assume you explained yourself badly and that is not what you meant, but just if that is the case, if you don't want people discreding your changes because they thought of even a better idea that would be benefitial to OT, that's a very asshole move.

Penguin wrote:

It’s fun reading new people’s interpretations and theories of how the RP meta and culture of old OT worked.

Penguin wrote:

It’s not real. It was never real. Nothing is real. Go back to bed.

Perception is reality

Jangsoodlor wrote:

I respect your effort on reviving OT! roleplay but no.

hyperastro wrote:

Penguin wrote:

It’s fun reading new people’s interpretations and theories of how the RP meta and culture of old OT worked.

Out of curiosity how shit is my interpretation? How much do new people misunderstand "OT lore"?