that would be incredibly silly
farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master
just like ppv1!
farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master
just like ppv1!
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)
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The accuracy percentage also influences the pp gained a bit, but the influence of it is decreased when the star difficulty of the map increases (so, at some point, the influence of it is so small score is the only things that matters).Aqo wrote:
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing elsePyaKura wrote:
lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
yeah
I'm sort of new to mania (been playing for 40 some days, have about 2000 pp) and this is my first post, but I really quickly noticed that the ranking system for mania needed to be changed somehow. The thing that bugged me the most is that 4k-8k are weighted the same, but 4k is much easier, so in my case like many others, all of my top scores for pp are from 4k songs. I could do really good in my standards on a 7k song, but not get any pp for it because I did a little better on the 4k songs, even though they are easier. For auto-converts, most of them get low difficulty ratings anyways, and you can easily get more pp from mania charts than you could from auto-converts. IMO, I wouldn't take auto-converts out from giving you pp, because if you're good at mania, you will get more pp from the mania songs anyways. That's just my opinion though, and I don't really know how far you can go, farming standard songs. If there were more ranked mania charts than there are currently available though, I would probably be more for disabling pp for auto-converts. There are also some songs that are considered way too high in difficulty (i.e. Utakata) that give you way too many pp.
4K is not necessarily easier than 7K except on an extremely high-level of play because 7K can be more dense than 4K, but for most players 4K focuses on speed, density and stamina whereas 7 and 8K is more about reading difficult patterns. However 4K gives way too much pp for low and mid-level play and not enough for high-level play. Higher key amounts suffer the opposite problem. That's why many players around 0 to 3000~ pp have a 4K song as their top perf whereas the other top players usually have 7K charts as top perfs. (Well there is AiAe but it IS underrated)
4K will feel overrated if your speed is better than your reading
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed
Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed
Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
I meant it as SR underrate 4K too much in comparison to 7 and 8K. I'm confident in saying that AiAe is equal if not harder than, say, IN2K6.
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?
It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.Tristan97 wrote:
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?
It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
sadly this does not hold true for standardcaiorandom wrote:
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.Tristan97 wrote:
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?
It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
There's not very many songs that can allow for something crazy to map (at least in mania). They do exist though, but good luck finding them lolBobbias wrote:
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
pretty sure a lot of BMS stuff technically allows crazy stuff to be mapped, even without looking at how original charts are done. Some "epic musics" (heavy orchestral stuff, such as two steps from hell tracks) can make pretty damn awesome LN charts as well.
Yes, and I'm all for in people to go for it.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.
It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.
It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
I have a new idea for this
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
don't bother, nobody is looking here
Well at least there have been 3 now 
tbh i like that idea baraatje
tbh i like that idea baraatje
*waves hand*
Kinda sad that Mania scoring is still broken 
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
That was brought up and discussed 5 or 6 months ago and look at amount of stuff changed.laishiou wrote:
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
I don't know why this thread still exists
Performance points don't fit in vsrg. It should be something like dan courses in lr2. It would be more precise and quite easy to implement
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Doesn't matter how long o!m's been out, peppy wouldn't change it anyway. :/PyaKura wrote:
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Honestly, PP isn't the worst way to rank players... Imagine how dumb ranks would be if they relied on "ranked score" instead of PP (oh wait, they did years ago, and it was awful).
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
If pp (or rank score, or any other value used for rank) went up noticeably whether or not you did well, then lowdiff farming wouldn't be avoided (unless the scaling from difficulty increases extremely fast with difficulty, for example, the easiest map in the game gives 1 point, a mid-tier map gives 10^35 points, and a top-tier map gives 10^45 points). The purpose of the decrease of pp gain rate from plays is limiting the amount of pp obtained from playing many maps of similar difficulty without increasing the difficulty over time. If the difficulty calculation of the pp system is accurate, then players will keep getting pp as long as they increase the difficulty (or performance) of the maps they play (because of that, a good difficulty calculator for osu!mania maps is very important for making the pp system better).Tear wrote:
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
Looking at beatmap leaderboards of hard maps can give you an idea of who are the best players in the game, but you can't use that method to know the skill ranking of players that aren't as good as those top players (a well designed pp system should be able to give a good idea of that).
There's one very simple change that would makes all modes of osu fun, addictive and still rewarding:
Disable pp weighting.
Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Disable pp weighting.
Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Tear, that's just plain wrong. You want everyone to play tons of autoconverts to get their score up? That's going back to ppv1, which as we know sucked dicks. Current pp system is okay-ish, if we'd get some attention and some fixes to formula, we'd have a realy good system. But oh,well.
Don't we all agree that autoconverts should be unranked, lol
Unrank autoconverts and bam, current system is 2 times better. Also, you should know by now that no one is going to change anything
As frustrating as it is, I actually like the weighting on PP. It ensures that you don't have inflation on PP as players play more and more songs, making the ranking system much more stable, which is a major requirement for any half-decent ranking system.
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Can't say I disagree with that. At least I can say I tried.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Okay, so far, in here, I've heard a lot of whining, and not really a lot of meat for suggesting.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.
Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):
1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.
...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
bluh bluh ban all autoconvertsFirst, what ARE autoconverts? I'm not a "mania" purist - I'm casual as crap, I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.
rank _k scores separatelyHow about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):
1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.
...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
Why are you talking about pp's if you're playing casually ? The pp system - as half-arsed as it is - is a competitive element in the game. If you're playing casually nothing prevents you from playing autoconverts for fun. By the way, we are talking about unranking the autoconverts so they don't give any pp at all, not straight out remove them.Omio9999 wrote:
I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal. Removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality.osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun.
Following what I said previously, you can only apply nK-mods to autoconverts. Mania-specific maps are not affected by those mods. (Not to say pretty much everyone farms on mania-specific maps since they usually give way more pp's).Omio9999 wrote:
rank _k scores separatelyHow about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
If your map list is mostly, if not entirely made out of autoconverts, then it's completely normal. They are usually far easier than mania-specific maps (or retardedly hard for a few of them). There is currently only one mania-specific ranked map rated over 7 stars which would Imperishable Night 2006, and a few maps over or around 6 stars (off the top of my head, Akasha, Intersect Thunderbolt, Shuffle Heaven, Zirkfied...). There are loads of 5 stars maps as well.Omio9999 wrote:
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
Anyway, I don't want to offend you but it seems your current o!m experience was mostly based around autoconverts. FYI, autoconverts as you might have guessed, are automatically converted by the game from osu!standard maps. They're okayish for first-timers, but past that point everyone is better off playing mania-specific because of the way they are structured mapping-wise. You may not see what I'm talking about atm but I can assure you that autoconverts feel REALLY WRONG compared to mania-specific maps (pitch relevancy, layering, SVs... autoconverts fail at all of that and more).
I didn't bother replying to your entire post because your view on the whole thing is uuuh... out of place I guess, due to your lack of experience, and thus so are your statements.
That said, the only real downside for mania-specific maps is that the mappool is tiny compared to osu!std, but there are enough ranked maps and tons of unranked which keep the mode alive and fun for most players.
I suggest you play some more o!m on mania-specific maps to give you a better idea of the current situation. Have fun
On the other hand, everyone receives the same incentive, so "zero out".Bobbias wrote:
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
I admit I also spam the song to get a lucky personal best, but its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
It is practice, but not all practice is equal. Spamming is practice on the specifics of that particular map, not on maps as a whole, so it will not help you learn as quickly for other maps as randomized practice does. It can help if that map contains specific patterns you have trouble with, but it still results in slower general skill improvement. Especially if it's grinding for SS scores. All that does is make you marginally more consistent on easy songs. In the 3 months I focused on that kind of improvement in stepmania I found that I actually got worse at harder maps because of lack of practice on them.
Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
you can't ask consistency in players because the next day they could be drunk while playing. or ate a lot of carbo and meat. or had an injury. or anything.
heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)kidlat020 wrote:
its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
We were talking about spam playing the same song over and over, not anmitsu/spamming the keys.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)kidlat020 wrote:
its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
And yeah, I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.