Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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Rorona

TenguKing9 wrote:

7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
IMO AR10 with HR is still harder than AR10 with HD. Just because the AR doesn't increase anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't get way harder. (cause like things get further apart and the cs gets smaller)
bomber34

TenguKing9 wrote:

I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
I disagree but maybe you just misswrote or so ...
it should not give to much bonus but it should weight more than no mod, because next to memorization you still need the skill to play the map.
If you suck at a map, memorizing everything won't help you at all anyway when it comes to this mod.
Spectre

Rorona wrote:

TenguKing9 wrote:

7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
IMO AR10 with HR is still harder than AR10 with HD. Just because the AR doesn't increase anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't get way harder. (cause like things get further apart and the cs gets smaller)
Playing AR9 or AR10 with DT is incredibly difficult since it's faster than AR10 at this point. I do agree with you that HR with AR10 is harder than playing it with HD, but the point is that AR9 with DT is much harder than AR9 with HR because it is AR10.3 and you have less time to react.

bomber34 wrote:

TenguKing9 wrote:

I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
I disagree but maybe you just misswrote or so ...
it should not give to much bonus but it should weight more than no mod, because next to memorization you still need the skill to play the map.
If you suck at a map, memorizing everything won't help you at all anyway when it comes to this mod.
I meant this for low AR plays such as AR6 and below. Anything above AR7 with this mod should have a bonus like you said but not as big as per say DT or HR.
bomber34

TenguKing9 wrote:

I meant this for low AR plays such as AR6 and below. Anything above AR7 with this mod should have a bonus like you said but not as big as per say DT or HR.
okay, then it is alright
-Ryuujii-
Between DT on Ar8 and HR on Ar8 = HR Ar8 should be slightly weight more. But not that big of a difference.

By the Way I am still thinking that my opinion on a map that has no spins and you have to SS to get the pp is not good, in other words SS no spin should not weight as much.

P.s, There is many People that have opinions or that i know that have opinions, so feel free to suggest stuff, this is your time to give your opinion and make PP System Fair.
ExRei

TenguKing9 wrote:

I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:

1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.

3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.

4. HD should have more weight on maps that are difficult rather than having it static throughout all maps.

5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.

6. For CTB specifics, Deluge should have most weight with every difficulty level below it having less weight than the one above.

7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.

8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that should'nt be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.

9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.

I'll give more suggestions as I think of them.
This is what I'm talking about...
Spectre
Which is why I pointed that one out since I agree with what you posted. I don't know about the rest of the players but I wouldn't like seeing only ctb specifics in my top performance list.
ZiRoX

jaibo wrote:

I agree that it should be something like
approved > insane > hard
Completely disagree with this. A map being approved doesn't necessarily mean it's harder than an Insane diff. The way tp works (calculating the difficulty of each map) should be ok.
Spectre

eldnl wrote:

About mods:

- Playing DT on AR9+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66853&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2
- Playing HR on AR8+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151017?m=2
- Playing HD on AR7- maps (but the map has to be a hard difficulty). https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=51308&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=101727&m=2
- Playing FL on AR9+ maps. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86324&m=2

That's the harder stuff about mods.
About the normal difficulty of a map, you have to consider the x distance of the notes, including sliders, because the y distance doesn't matter at all.
The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
The stream jumps can be considered has something really hard.

If anyone can add something that would be great.
Adding on to what eldnl said, I put some maps together that are hard with no mod according to AR (Feel free to elaborate on these):

I realized that I have missed maps that are hard but these are just some that I can quickly think off the top of my head so please bear with that.

AR8 - Kirby Mix difficulties, Non stop road [hich's Rain], Emerald Sword [Extreme], The Beginning [AngelHoney], WAWAWA SPEED mix [Marathon], Wing my way [Hell-jumping]

AR9 - With a Dance Number [0108 style], No39 [0108 style], Talent Shredder [0108], Six Trillion [0108], FREEDMAN [Freedom, Iyasine, Nouk], Skystar difficulties except for Artcore Jinja, Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (HD Bonus suggested for this one) , MISTAKE [Ms.0108, Chewu], I [Another], Intersect Thunderbolt [Thunderbolt], Rubik's Cube [Cube], COSMOS [Cosmos], Dragons [Insane] (HD bonus suggested with this one)

AR10 - Image Material [Scorpiour], The Creator [Nyaten], Kyouki Chinden [Madness Precipitation], Rog-unlimitation [AngelHoney], I [Terror]
- Rii -

TenguKing9 wrote:

AR10 - Image Material [Scorpiour], The Creator [Nyaten], Kyouki Chinden [Madness Precipitation], Rog-unlimitation [AngelHoney], I [Terror]
you forgot Blue Dragon's
Rorona

TenguKing9 wrote:

Playing AR9 or AR10 with DT is incredibly difficult since it's faster than AR10 at this point. I do agree with you that HR with AR10 is harder than playing it with HD, but the point is that AR9 with DT is much harder than AR9 with HR because it is AR10.3 and you have less time to react.
Er. I read HD, not DT the first time, I swear.

OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
Callionet
Remove performance points.
Nepu
some personal opinions o.o

Just like the tp system, I think the ability of playing CtB can be divided into different aspects and can't be treated like "this map is definitely harder than that map"

imo,there are 3 aspects:

1.the ability of reaction. This is based mostly on AR. a good example is many people can't FC AR10(or AR8+HR) maps

2.the ability of moving smoothly. A such example is that it's very hard to get SS when CS is high. one may always miss droplets here and there.The other situtation is when play with DT mod,it's harder to get SS since the movement of plate is accelerated too.

3.the ability of "jumping" correctly. A such example is this map. you can watch the reps as some continous left-right jumps.

There are also some auto-converts created strange arrange of friuts. But under most situation it can be treated as combing ability 2 and 3.

HD can't be treated as a normal mod in CtB, there are a lot of people who can't play even a little HD as well as people who can't play without HD when AR is high. But low AR HD should always consider a hard mod, imo.

Will add more if I think of them. :D
Yes Sir Popesama
I suggest the user panel display 2 ranks : the total score rank and the pp rank
whatever pp‘s algorithm adust, not everyone is satisified.
According to peppy's thought, pp should reflect the player's skill. I come up with an idea of this: the Arena mode. Only mp can reflect the player's truly skill, so, in the arena mode, there are two teams, 8 players can go the match, the winner team add the pp, the loser lost pp,a bit like laddar mode in dota. the postion is random accorriding to pp .
Just a simple idea for refference
Zak
Gonna try and share some of my thoughts on this by expanding upon others ideas, personally I wouldn't mind seeing pp gone completely, but if we're going to have it hopefully we can get it right this time.

Sabi wrote:

3:why are droplets worth 10 points.. lol? we only get these droplets to get that SS Bonus for the PP.. so please fix that <3
CtB has always had droplets as being 10 points (at least as long as I've been around) and changing this now would cause problems more than likely.

Sabi wrote:

4: another thing is spinner maps, in ctb there are pp maps called no spinner maps such as (Maware - Popner's Hard) https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 Which gave over 40-50 PP If you SS'd it with HR/HD because you would tie for 3rd/4th place and give alot of pp, but if you even miss 1 droplet you would lose all that pp gain
This doesn't really need to be addressed as ppv2 doesn't care about your rank, it cares about your accuracy/mods more, though I do think on maps with spinners it should reward you a bit more for spinning well.

bomber34 wrote:

HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.

eldnl wrote:

The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
Most of what you said was pretty good, though note density can matter with jumps, especially on a map like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=129285&m=2 , the notes are so close together that they become very hard to hit on ctb even with no mod, so when calculating difficulty, maybe consider not just how close jumps are horizontally, but maybe how close they are on the timeline as well as how often the jumps are close enough to be hard to hit.

TenguKing9 wrote:

1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
This is somewhat good, but we have to make sure that an SS isn't given too little weight, as sometimes hitting those droplets can take a lot of work and deserve a reward, and maybe we should base the pp bonus an SS will give based on how hard it is to SS compared to getting an FC (maybe by the % of FC's that are also an SS?) Basically an SS should still always give more, but just not to the ridiculous extent as it does currently.

TenguKing9 wrote:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
FL should always be weighted heavier than no mod, but it should be weighted accordingly to how difficult the jumps are in a map, as slow maps with very few jumps are pretty easy to do with FL, while taking the time to FC something somewhat hard should give you a reward (hopefully not to a huge extent though)

TenguKing9 wrote:

3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
Again this needs to be based on how hard the map will be with those mods, as on most maps, DT is still easier, while on AR8+ some maps become hard to simply pass with DT, so the weighting should be on a per map basis as explained for Hd and FL

TenguKing9 wrote:

5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
I do believe AR10 should have more weight than currently probably but we should avoid making it too big as some players (such as myself) just simply don't have the ability to do AR10 without memorizing the entire map, I kinda wish AR10 was made somewhat slower for ctb and other AR's were adjusted accordingly to be more fair as you're limited by the catcher speed as WELL as reaction time, while every other mode relies purely on your reaction time, but this isn't the place for a discussion on that.

TenguKing9 wrote:

8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that shouldn't be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
I agree with this but Freedom Dive is a horrible example since it's still very hard for people to FC even with being much easier than on standard. a map like MENDES (https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=75831&m=2) would probably do much better as an example as it's hard for the average standard player to combo yet on ctb you need HD+DT just to get top 50, which is very uncommon for any AR8 map on ctb.

TenguKing9 wrote:

9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
This very true, there are several maps that are harder than most specifics, I don't need to list examples as any ctb player knows this. Though if a converted map's difficulty is calculated to around the same as a specific, I believe the specific should give a little more as it was made for ctb specifically.

Rorona wrote:

OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
I don't like the idea of HD+FL giving a large bonus on ctb as most maps that have more than 300-400 combo are impossible to do without total memorization, and while memorization is considered a skill something like HD+FL shouldn't be able to end up giving people a large amount of pp that they don't deserve. A bonus is fine, but please nothing too large.


Also please make it so Cups and Salads stop giving gigantic amounts of pp, sure they're ctb maps that will usually be hard with mods but they're still not hard enough to give the amount they do currently.
bomber34

Zak wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.
well my " high AR you can ignore HD really" part was forumalted badly ...
I never said/meant that HD should give less points than nomod
I still say the lower the AR the harder is HD
and from my personal experience it doesn't matter for me playing HD on AR8 - 9 if we ignore weird shaped sliders when it comes to Acc.
on AR8 or 9 the point where I look at the dropping frutis is above the point where they become invisible, so I can see the next fruits already. I don't think I am the only one doing it that way but there are sure people who have a different fixed view point for catching
That does not mean that every AR8 - 9 map is as easy to play with HD.
Yeah there might be exceptions but I talk about a very general spread of maps we have in terms of so called "difficulty"

overall there should be a way to calculate how difficult a map becomes with HD but I am not the one who can think of a way for that
Zak
I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Rorona

Zak wrote:

I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Well, I can't play HD at all, even though I was like rank 900, because I look right above Ryuuta to play, or at least a little above him.

But what bomber said was right, HD should still count more than an SS even though an SSH might be easier for some people to do on AR9+ maps.
ExRei

Zak wrote:

I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
you mean like This ? :^)

Yes, some maps are even harder with HD (even with AR9, 0108 again here it comes).

Also.....add something again ? damn i want my #49 back lol
shiori_old2
I use my poor english

Difficulty comes from 'from left to right and how fast it is'

Just like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=142954&m=2
It is very hard.
jump, jump and jump; and fast

and this https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=64267&m=2
this is almost impossible for most players
somewhere, notes gos far and fast

Also, AR9 is much easier than AR10
Even DT is easier than HR (though I cannot pass AR9+DT :P)

Some jumps without hi-dash(red fruits):
there is a note A and a note B
1. you must dash to catch B immediately after you get A
2. you can wait for a little momment to catch B after you get A

Obviously, 1 is harder than 2 ---- it is the limit to make 'red fruits' NOT appear
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