Welcome Quotes, please catch up and give us your thoughts and reads please.

I'd also like your thoughts on your predecessor.

How is his thoughts on his predecessor useful?

"My previous self seemed scummy. We should probably vote for- oh, wait."

CalignoBot wrote:

How is his thoughts on his predecessor useful?

I have my reasons to ask

Are they going to be explained later?

rEdo wrote:

Jinxy wrote:

I just noticed this, page 13. rEdo's talking about Dake, but then turns around and votes Irre? Like, no one has talked about this as far as I know?

ahaha, these goddamn avatars, I was sure it's Irreversible's post, thus started talking to him immediately XD

elaborating: he's been picked on by Sakura until the end of page 11, where Royston voted himself, and that's where he started to be suspicious as hell in my eyes (p/2559420 pinged me like real hard, looks as if he was really relieved that he's clean from suspicion and immediately started sheeping to Sakura for a town-like read). apart from defending himself so boldly from a mere one vote, he also (after being asked for his reads) started to point his finger rather blatantly at Royston with a reason being him self-voting and defending Caligno for no particular reason. what worries me, though, Royston himself hasn't even responded to all of this, or rather, he responded with a mere "I felt like I had to say something".

Unvote

gotta rethink about stuff for now. good job Irreversible, you're getting town points :­)
I'd like to read something more relevant from Royston now.

wut. For like 3/4 of that post you were saying Irreversible was acting really suspicious and you decide to unvote him and say he's getting town points? I don't get it.

Irreversible wrote:

still don't get why you unvoted so late..

I was afraid Lilac was going to modkill me for being retarded (see rule 1) or something like that.

CalignoBot wrote:

Are they going to be explained later?

Yes

Unvote

Hi all!

Gave the thread a cursory glance this morning, thought I would have time to do more formal reads now but I don't. Expect a good amount of stuff from me in 10 hours.

Nevermind, homework can be done in the morning.

At the moment I've glanced through everything once, and on my second go-through with a bit more reading, I'm currently at I think 11 pages in. I'll have a better post in 9 hours or so but I wanted something down before I went to sleep.

My first thought is holy fuck why is no one voting for rEdo

Vote: rEdo

rEdo knowingly jumps onto a bandwagon when it has been very obvious - as well as stated in-thread through the screen cap of kook being idle from some silence from his avatar - that kook isn't going to reply any time soon, or will simply not respond to any post of his in any meaningful way and puts him at L-1. This reeks scum to me. Virtually everything else outside of early RVS looks like either it's speculating on set up or speculating on why the person I subbed in for speculated on set up.

Does anyone know how to iso on this forum? Is there an easy way to search for posts by user? I had to search in the bottom bar for "rEdo" and had to search through everyone who said his name, which is annoying. I just want his posts iso'd and clicking on the username just takes me to their osu profile.

@Sakura, I think the person I subbed in for was trying to generate discussion and generally doesn't know what to look for in scumhunting. The ruling out of B and 1 is consistent with his "boring" claim considering they are the two set ups with nilla village/nilla scum. While counter-productive and can lead to easy rolefishing for scum, the manner in which he did it read honest and town and I really don't understand why the wagon on him lasted as long as it did. Half the day seems wasted talking about what the heck an IIoA is rather than actually scumhunting. Thanks, Obama Sakura.

Any more questions for me to answer and I'm happy to do so. I'll do another quick scan before sleeping to see if anyone wanted me to answer anything else.

Nope, didn't see anything else.

rEdo/Sakura scumteam heard it here first.

Night!

ISOs: http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2563120

Quotes wrote:

rEdo knowingly jumps onto a bandwagon when it has been very obvious - as well as stated in-thread through the screen cap of kook being idle from some silence from his avatar - that kook isn't going to reply any time soon, or will simply not respond to any post of his in any meaningful way and puts him at L-1. This reeks scum to me. Virtually everything else outside of early RVS looks like either it's speculating on set up or speculating on why the person I subbed in for speculated on set up.

Interesting catch there. Another thing thing I also noticed was rEdo's vote that placed kook on L-1 was also after Sakura talked about Saki liking to Quickhammer.

And speaking of Saki

Prod Saki again, last post 3 days ago

Sakura wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Are they going to be explained later?

Yes

Now I'm wondering o.o

@Quotes, can you list up some of the RVS? I'm interested which you think have been voted randomly.

Normally when people replace into scumslots tend to give some amished tell, which is why when people replace in I always ask them their thoughts on their predecessor.

@Jinxy, while I am glad that my preliminary vote on rEdo is interesting to you, you do nothing about it. Why?

@IrreversibleI was referring more to the general idea of the Random Voting Stage than any particular votes. Every game (for the most part) starts with some people voting for reasons that are far from the most persuasive, but they get people talking.

@Sakura, what do you mean by an Amished tell?

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

Quotes wrote:

rEdo knowingly jumps onto a bandwagon when it has been very obvious - as well as stated in-thread through the screen cap of kook being idle from some silence from his avatar - that kook isn't going to reply any time soon, or will simply not respond to any post of his in any meaningful way and puts him at L-1. This reeks scum to me. Virtually everything else outside of early RVS looks like either it's speculating on set up or speculating on why the person I subbed in for speculated on set up.

the silence you've mentioned already went off before the time I posted (please compare the date he got silenced and the date Sakura posted), and so I thought he's gonna post his thoughts the time he gets unsilenced. yes, it indeed was a risky move, but I was trying to literally force him to talk... well, he hasn't been amused to respond at all. the way he posted was rather itching, and even though I had the idea that this might have really been just a newbie's attempt to give us something to start from, I had no other suspects at that time, I tried to push him to talk - scum could also be just lurking, just like him. if one couldn't say anything that would help hunting scum, you would've accused him of being one, right? and that's what I did this case.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

Quotes wrote:

@Jinxy, while I am glad that my preliminary vote on rEdo is interesting to you, you do nothing about it. Why?

Because I was waiting for more people, including rEdo himself, to comment or explain on it.

rEdo wrote:

the silence you've mentioned already went off before the time I posted (please compare the date he got silenced and the date Sakura posted), and so I thought he's gonna post his thoughts the time he gets unsilenced. yes, it indeed was a risky move, but I was trying to literally force him to talk... well, he hasn't been amused to respond at all. the way he posted was rather itching, and even though I had the idea that this might have really been just a newbie's attempt to give us something to start from, I had no other suspects at that time, I tried to push him to talk - scum could also be just lurking, just like him. if one couldn't say anything that would help hunting scum, you would've accused him of being one, right? and that's what I did this case.

Well, the time checks out. I think. Timezones and shit.

However, there was no way your "forcing" would have worked. Your vote put him on L-1 and after Sakura talked about Seki Saki's tendencies, there was no way anyone would leave kkk on L-1. You could have been gambling on Saki posting and hammering, which I find possible, since the next post (Cali's unvote) was 13 hours later if I'm counting correctly. I don't quite buy your explanation.]

I'm p. sure I had voted somewhere else before rEdo put his vote, otherwise I'd have given an L-1 warning since rEdo didnt.

Also when I posted the screenshot the silence was already over (notice how there's no "person cannot speak for another X hours/minutes/stuff")

I moved my vote from kookookook to Irreversible here: p/2555851 Leaving kookookook at L-3

rEdo votes kookookook here: p/2557144 Putting him back at L-2, this is way many pages after I mentioned the Saki issue and like a page or so after I mentioned the silence.

Seems to me here like someone's twisting the facts, or simply didnt read the thread well enough.

FoS: Quotes

Oh wait, it was Jinxy who brought that up.

FoS: Jinxy instead.

I honestly wasn't paying attention to the votes due to the compulsory-unvote rule, so Cali's next post made me think that rEdo did put kook on L-1.

Also, it doesn't matter when you said the Saki issue, if rEdo was scum, he could have just remembered it then and tried his luck, is what I was thinking.

Jinxy wrote:

I honestly wasn't paying attention to the votes due to the compulsory-unvote rule, so Cali's next post made me think that rEdo did put kook on L-1.

>I wasn't paying attention to the votes
>Another thing I also noticed was rEdo's vote that placed kook on L-1 was also after Sakura talked about Saki liking to Quickhammer

are you for real now? that's an accusation taken from the air.

Like I said, Cali's next post and Quotes's observation

So you werent paying attention to the votes, yet you noticed that rEdo voted him (even tho it was L-2 and not L-1 vote)

Unvote
Vote: Jinxy

Jinxy wrote:

Like I said, Cali's next post and Quotes's observation

but, you see, L-1 wasn't even the case this time, yet he was pretty much basing on that. I also wanted to mention that I've already had kook in my scum suspects, and now that Quotes replaced him, and you immediately tag along his theories... meh. I won't be the scapegoat for scum, sorry.

Vote: Jinxy
FoS: Quotes

Scumteam seems mad I figured them out.

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

Either is blatant buddying or is trying to use Sakura's act of being the one leading the Irreversible push as a reason why HE is townie, both of which are scummy.

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

@all regarding being wrong about the L-1 thing, I mostly read into that from the CalignoBot post and someone mentioning that it was L-1 immediately following the vote. I wasn't tracking votes and I don't remember seeing a particularly recent vote count so it stood out to me. Regardless of it being L-1, the act itself is either scummy or stupid. Placing another vote wasn't going to suddenly make kook active; he'd either come back or he wouldn't, and placing more votes on him just risks a quick hammer rather than actually scumhunting with semi-active to active players.

Back to reading, will post more.

rEdo's buddying has been noted, tho it doesnt mean much until one of my scumspects flip.

Bahahaha iso'ing Sakura is hilarious

Pressure on literally every user but rEdo. Here are all of Sakura's interactions with rEdo:

Sakura wrote:

rEdo wrote:

@Sakura: is "who's scum" a catch-phrase (since I saw people randomly using this a lot, even in this thread), or did you actually ask him who's scum?

Yes I did, it has a reason and I'll explain after Irre's reply.

This is it. The closest that Sakura comes for the rest of the game is after Caligno posts an FOS on rEdo, she posts:

Sakura wrote:

I'm actually thinking irreversible has higher chance of flipping scum, but i kind of feel bad because i have that feeling every game with him =/

Mostly trying to discredit me when I wasn't even attacking him, smells of chainsaw or WK.

Redirecting any possible pressure that would be placed on rEdo. Even now Sakura refuses to interact with rEdo as if she is afraid he'll say something stupid.

Oops I lied I missed one

Sakura wrote:

In that case it makes it even MORE suspicious, no PR would give him/herself away this soon without heavy fire at them, consider that he started getting voted by other people after that statement, not before.

Proceeds to tunnel kook's rolefishing and ignores all of rEdo's, which I will post about in great detail next!

Why are you making associations without flips?

Wtf it's saying I can only embed 2 quotes within another, hold up lemme see how I can fix this.

rEdo wrote:

Royston wrote:

Keep in mind that mafia already has some knowledge of the setup, based on if they have a roleblocker or not.

yup, they can narrow up to two possibilities: either {B, C, 1, 3} if they've got two Goons or {A, 2} if they've got a roleblocker, which I hope isn't the case this time. we have no idea what's the scenario, though, so I guess it would be safer to consider that they've got a roleblocker, just in case it's actually true.

It's early in the day; some speculation on set up is understandable if there is nothing else to start discussion. Slight scumread on "oh man i REALLY hope they don't have a roleblocker" in the same vein of "damn the doctor died." Not a solid read but this isn't a pro-town post.

rEdo wrote:

kook's saying that these setups are boring could be­ a slight way to claim a role, you know. he could've wanted to narrow up the possible setups, in order for us to give hints about his role, so I wouldn't be that sure about suspecting him right away.

but yeah, I kinda question myself what would be the reason for that...

Anti-town. Not necessarily scummy as my read on kook suggests but something to keep in mind.

rEdo wrote:

sounds interesting if that's how you think of it. I'd like to hear something from him first, though. kook, why did you think these two setups aren't likely to happen? are you really a PR, or just trying to cover up something you don't know?

FoS: kookookook

Sheeps Sakura's pressure on kook's rolefishing despite his last 2 posts coming off as slight apologies for what kook was posting. Wishy-washy implies very easily influenced townie or scum. Leans scum.

rEdo wrote:

DakeDekaane wrote:

[quote="kookookook"I think it'll not be 1 or B as these set-ups are too boring.

This is still calling my attention. So I'm sticking to that vote.

for some reason this makes me think that it's his way of saying "I'm not a Vanilla, I've got a PR". might've been overinterpretting things, though.[/quote]

Continues to role fish and indicates a belief that kook is a PR.

rEdo wrote:

Sakura wrote:

EBWODP: he knows kookookook is town.

I don't know if he's town, it just looks like a slight newbie's play for claiming town with some role to me... or so I'd say if he wasn't lying.

CalignoBot wrote:

He's openly PR-hunting. Town doesn't want to do this at the very least on D1; even if they see something like this, making it public is very anti-town.

ain't necessarily PR-hunting, I already said I wanna hear from him at first, and that way of talking is supposed to be a motivator for him to prove that he's not scum. I already mentioned he's a suspect to me, so if he won't talk, I'm okay with using a vote on him.

Is totally fine with then voting his PR lead and then with lynching him. "...or so I'd say if he wasn't lying" what the heck does this even mean? This is a horrendous post. Incredibly inconsistent with what his townie thoughts on the game would be and instead if hoping to take a pot shot at a villager speculating on set up in hopes he is a PR.

rEdo wrote:

now that was mean, Sakura :­(

Irreversible and Sakura's fight besides...

Vote: kookookook
I'm kinda tired of him not talking at all. I'm certain I must've overinterpretted that so called "weird PR call". he either randomly dropped by, saying "this setups are boring XXDXDXD won't be plaid" and stopped playing the game, or he's unexperienced scum and he doesn't want to talk at all, despite being asked for it.

Next post is a vote on his PR lead when kook has been super inactive and voting him will do nothing to add pressure. Buddies Sakura.

rEdo wrote:

DakeDekaane wrote:

[quote="Sakura"Hint: he's not town.

Hehe, matches so nicely with my thoughts.

so at first you were like against anything that Sakura said, started to shift between your statements, and now that she's claimed that she started to think ­that you're town, you've started to sheep to the wagons that she starts push? tsk, tsk. something doesn't seem right.

Unvote
Vote: Irreversible

also,

Mod: requesting for a replacement for kookookook. he's probably not gonna say anything that could help us, anyway. the only things he's done this game were some scumpings on page 5 and speculating the setup, saying two certain set-ups ain't gonna be used because they're "too boring".[/quote]

Unvotes after realizing kook is inactive is pro-town. Buddying Sakura once again and being angry that someone doesn't agree with her is scummy and blatant buddying. "tsk tsk" sounds incredibly fake as well

rEdo wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

I still don't think that his 'selfvote' was just for talking stuff, if it was, he would've unvoted hisself already, wouldn't he?

his vote is only temporary and has no real relevance nor connection with him being scum, as you just implied - he'll just change it when the right time comes.

also, I do work for town - I wanna lynch scum, and with every post you just prove yourself being one more and more. is there a particular reason why you think Royston is scum, or just "a gut feeling"? or perhaps you're just following Sakura's wagon just to divert the attention from yourself?

Pressing Irreversible is pro-town. Implying he is voting Royston out of following the Sakura wagon is hilariously hypocritical but not necessarily scummy. Believes Royston's action to be dumb town.

A couple fluff posts including the Sakura interaction here. Whatever.

rEdo wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

(...) and rEdo didn't have an opinion at all (...)

just wanted to make it clear: at first his twist of statements seemed as mere confusion of his to me, but every further post started to ping me pretty hard he's scum, that's why I intervened just recently and started to pressure him.

Makes excuses for himself and his read with 0 pressure on him. Scummy.

rEdo wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

rEdo, who is 'us' ?

Sakura and me, as we're pushing you quite hard and you started to say stuff like "I don't even care anymore", so yeah

Irreversible wrote:

There is a particular reason, his inactivity when we voted him. calignobot immediately got active then, what lets me think they work together. It's obviously a good choice to stay quiet while you guys focus on me, isn't it?

CalignoBot apparently got active because your posts started to ping scum, as I've mentioned before, and that's what he's focusing on. he hasn't defended nor said a word about Royston (except for saying that he has no idea why Royston defended him). not sure about Roy's case, though, but he seems less scummy than you right now.

Royston read stays consistent; Towny. Once again says "Sakura and I" and then Caligno is mentioned as sort of an add on. Fairly null outside of a bit of buddying to Sakura, can be read as just inflating how much pressure he personally has done.

rEdo wrote:

Jinxy wrote:

I just noticed this, page 13. rEdo's talking about Dake, but then turns around and votes Irre? Like, no one has talked about this as far as I know?

ahaha, these goddamn avatars, I was sure it's Irreversible's post, thus started talking to him immediately XD

elaborating: he's been picked on by Sakura until the end of page 11, where Royston voted himself, and that's where he started to be suspicious as hell in my eyes (https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2559420 pinged me like real hard, looks as if he was really relieved that he's clean from suspicion and immediately started sheeping to Sakura for a town-like read). apart from defending himself so boldly from a mere one vote, he also (after being asked for his reads) started to point his finger rather blatantly at Royston with a reason being him self-voting and defending Caligno for no particular reason. what worries me, though, Royston himself hasn't even responded to all of this, or rather, he responded with a mere "I felt like I had to say something".

Unvote

gotta rethink about stuff for now. good job Irreversible, you're getting town points :­)
I'd like to read something more relevant from Royston now.

Zero indication of why he now thinks Irreversible is getting townpoints indicates scum just riding bandwagons and pressure, also slight buddying to allowing Sakura to control the tempo of the game and trusting her. Royston read semi-consistent but wants more content which is fair, does start to waver on Royston based on things that before made him think town, but it's done in a semi-authentic way imo. Avatar thing is fine.

Why not speculate on partners? It's useful information, and I will have one of you two lynched today, because one of the two of you will provide by far the most information on who is scum this game.

I'll respond to more recent stuff later, I have a 2 page paper to write. Be back in 6 hours!

Oh and another reason I forgot is because I don't actually trust anyone in this village to press you Sakura, other than CalignoBot or Saki and neither of them seem to be willing to press particularly hard (especially with Saki being afk).

Oh wait, this set up doesn't show scum flip on death?

Quotes wrote:

Redirecting any possible pressure that would be placed on rEdo. Even now Sakura refuses to interact with rEdo as if she is afraid he'll say something stupid.

now that was mean :­(

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

about giving you a decent reason why I'm not scum - I've tried to make people who looked scummy in my eyes talk. my suspects were kook, recently Jinxy and Irreversible so far, and since I saw Sakura trying to make him talk, I didn't see a reason why I shouldn't tag along - pressure from even more people makes people more likely to talk. I have indeed buddied up to Sakura at that point, but that's the end to it. however, I haven't heard a single word from kook yet, which leaves me really unsatisfied. as for now I could say that Royston is also acting pretty weird, but it's not enough for me to make any accusiations, as right now I wanna push an another wagon anyway, and I believe I'm working in a good way.

like I said, I haven't heard a word from kook yet, and this is where I ask you the same question - please give me a reason why you aren't scum. that whole accusiation just pings me even harder that you've got potential to be scum. I could also browse through your ISO thoroughly, but you just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

It does, newbies arent bastard

Partner speculation early on will really hurt town in the long run, suppose you lynch me, I flip town then you're gonna say "So rEdo's scum for buddying her" suppose he flips town too, then you're at LyLo with zero info to go on and scumhunt, if someone flips scum then yes, their interactions are something to look at.

Otherwise looks like a nice way for scum to setup mislynches for others.

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

Ok I was going to be really mad if I was in a game with no cardflip. I hate no cardflip, there's no reward after a lynch of knowing you lynched correctly or not.

Sakura wrote:

So you werent paying attention to the votes, yet you noticed that rEdo voted him (even tho it was L-2 and not L-1 vote)

...Seriously? I thought it was obvious that I meant the votecount, since the extra requirement makes it harder to know which votes actually count. Who the heck doesn't notice bolded votes?

rEdo wrote:

plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D

Trying to explain away an anti-town tell with the classic "I always do that" excuse, I see.

rEdo wrote:

I could also browse through [Quotes's] ISO thoroughly, but [he] just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Wait, what? This is pinging me. Someone else catches you being inconsistent, and you're calling him scummy for it?
Vote: rEdo

Sakura wrote:

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

What's the TvS tell?

TvS tell when scum sees 2 townies arguing and says "This is a Town vs Scum fight" hence gets one lynched and flips town and goes "Oh then the scum is the other one" then lynches the other one who also flips town, then they scored 2 mislynches without much effort, which is why when someone says that they consider it a scumtell.

Unvote

Well, first of all, I understand the word 'flip' itself, but I don't really get the meaning of it - what do you mean with that when you're talking about it? Sakura, you've asked me this question once, and I didn't answer to it, because I didn't understand why you I were voting without flipping.

Secondly, reDo, you're wagonning so much aren't you? You've just did it again. Mostly with Sakura as well, but I don't think you both would make it so suspicious. With your last post that kook isn't posting you've made yourself a bit more scumside, because you've mentioned him several times in your post, which shows me a kind of panic that people get their votes on you, while you try to put attention on kook.

About Caligno: Why so quiet AGAIN?

And Quotes: About the random voting stuff. I thought you mean the normal posts, but as I saw you were talking about the first random votes, well, ok.

flipping is when the mod reveals the alignment and role of a player (usually by death)

Irreversible wrote:

Secondly, reDo, you're wagonning so much aren't you? You've just did it again. Mostly with Sakura as well, but I don't think you both would make it so suspicious. With your last post that kook isn't posting you've made yourself a bit more scumside, because you've mentioned him several times in your post, which shows me a kind of panic that people get their votes on you, while you try to put attention on kook.

not necessarily wagoning, I just wanted to clarify the fact that kook wasn't active at all, while giving me a gloomy feeling with his posts. that's why I'm forcing that statement, and that I'd like to hear why Quotes would not be scum. however, he has no real ISO except for accusing me, and that's rather frustrating that he can just mock people with a high possibility of being scum himself, and nobody can post anything against him. also, at the same time Quotes got into the game, Jinxy gave me a feeling of being way more confident in his posts, and that gave me even more of a gloomy feeling, hence my vote.

Where the heck did I make a TvS argument? I'm telling people that both Sakura and rEdo are mafia. I fail to see at what point I am painting this idea of "one of the two are scum"

Sakura wrote:

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

learn2read

And back to your analysis if we 2 were scum, what would be the purpose of avoiding interaction with my scumpartner?

Alright, let's go back to Caligno then, won't unvote until he made a clear post he's town.

CalignoBot

I'm a bit unsure about this wagoning all the time, but since CalignoBot made the worse ones imo, my vote stays on him.

Vote: CalignoBot omg sorry ¬¬

Irreversible wrote:

About Caligno: Why so quiet AGAIN?

Two entire pages popped up while I was asleep and I'm never in a mood to catch up on that amount of posts until I've been awake for a few hours. If you're going to try to use that argument, take times into account.

I have yet to see a remotely persuasive case from you, too.

Sakura wrote:

Normally when people replace into scumslots tend to give some amished tell, which is why when people replace in I always ask them their thoughts on their predecessor.

Yeah, no. The amished tell only works when they're not told to give their thoughts.

---

The L-1 issue is dead null.

Sakura+rEdo scumteam has some merit after the top of page 19. That's not a persuasive point at all to vote for the single most protown player in the game up to this point. If one of them ends up flipping scum, the other goes straight to the top of my list. It really irks me how both of them tried to turn the tables back on Quotes after he put pressure on them as a first response.

I thought you were better than that, considering how you super buddied me on tit for tat when you were scum knowing I was town.

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

@Sakura, how have you not responded to my ISO on rEdo yet? Is there something I am missing or are incorrect in assuming in my read on him? Clearly you implicitly think I am wrong in my read by continuing to believe that I am wrong in my push, but yet say absolutely nothing about your own thoughts on rEdo and why you think what you do.

Please tell me why you think he is town

Please Quotes, this is so senseless. I don't think either of them would be so stupid that they would make it so obvious - if they were scumpartners, they would act differently, I strongly suppose. It COULD be one of them is scum, but I dont think they're scumpartners.

What about the inactive ones btw?

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

This is WIFOM and incorrect at the same time. It is WIFOM because doing something because it is "too obvious" becomes an infinite cycle, where if the mafia believe they can appear town by doing it, they will. You are also incorrect because the manner in which you interact is so over the top in the buddying that it becomes a scummy parody of itself.

about giving you a decent reason why I'm not scum - I've tried to make people who looked scummy in my eyes talk. my suspects were kook, recently Jinxy and Irreversible so far, and since I saw Sakura trying to make him talk, I didn't see a reason why I shouldn't tag along - pressure from even more people makes people more likely to talk. I have indeed buddied up to Sakura at that point, but that's the end to it. however, I haven't heard a single word from kook yet, which leaves me really unsatisfied. as for now I could say that Royston is also acting pretty weird, but it's not enough for me to make any accusiations, as right now I wanna push an another wagon anyway, and I believe I'm working in a good way.

I've already noted that your making Irreversible talk was fairly pro-town.

Your votes on kook still irk me. Admittedly I should be biased in that regard since I essentially am kook now, but I feel as though my ISO outlined fairly well why your push on him felt inauthentic. You pushed him when he was not lurky - he was afk, and fairly obviously so.

I haven't really looked too closely at the Jinxy vote but it looks like it was mostly based on him posting something incorrect based on me being incorrect. This comes off as "I don't like what Quotes posted but he scares me, so I will vote for someone that agrees with him." Will re-read the more recent posts because it's clear my look through before already has had some mistakes (as is evidenced by misreading Sakura's TvS thing)

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

like I said, I haven't heard a word from kook yet, and this is where I ask you the same question - please give me a reason why you aren't scum. that whole accusiation just pings me even harder that you've got potential to be scum. I could also browse through your ISO thoroughly, but you just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Me thinking you are scum does not make me scum. I've already called out the most active player (Sakura) on shit and will continue to do so, since everyone else but Caligno seems unwilling to do so. I posted the ISO on you because you stood out the most as the most obvious scum. The Sakura thing came later when I asked myself who would be your most likely partner. My posts have been spur of the moment and honest in my own estimation, although I can see if you have trouble seeing that I am being honest with calling you scum! I also apparently didn't fail whatever test Sakura was doing. I've explained most of my thoughts regarding lynches and on who I believe scum to be and have backed them up with evidence.

Am I missing anything?

@rEdo, what did Irreversible do to earn enough "townie points" for you to take your vote off of him?

Sakura wrote:

It does, newbies arent bastard

Partner speculation early on will really hurt town in the long run, suppose you lynch me, I flip town then you're gonna say "So rEdo's scum for buddying her" suppose he flips town too, then you're at LyLo with zero info to go on and scumhunt, if someone flips scum then yes, their interactions are something to look at.

Otherwise looks like a nice way for scum to setup mislynches for others.

Sakura, I didn't know that I was voting for you. The only way that your argument holds weight is if you are the one that is lynched today. If rEdo is lynched and comes up town, you come off as neutral (it just means rEdo thought you were town, and either you were purposefully playing into his buddying or legitimately had a very strong town read on him or simply didnt notice a lack of pressure on your behalf). I have done very little to accuse you of being scum directly, I am just making the point that your interactions with rEdo have been incredibly weird and worth noting come day 2 if rEdo flips scum. I have no strong opinions on any of the other players in this regard since I have literally just subbed in.

I haven't yet done a strong ISO on you yet; I just glanced over it for rEdo interaction to see if my initial hunch in the game had any bearing. It seems it did, so I shared as much. There is no reason for me to withhold information that could be used to locate a 2nd scum.

For an outline of the admittedly limited reasons I have stated for why Sakura is worth putting pressure on:

1. Wasted the village's time early game in
a. kook lynch
b. speculation regarding whether what he was doing was role phishing
c. Arguing over what he did was really IIoA or not

This shit went on for 10 pages. Either is a function of Sakura having a complex of never being wrong or of wanting to waste the village's time. She's very clearly been the one leading the discussions, and when so much time is wasted on a player who isn't going to respond, you deserve criticism. Own it, you played badly early game. Your more recent interactions with me do not inspire confidence with me

2. The interactions with rEdo are weird.

I outlined them both in the Sakura quick ISO post and the rEdo iso post. rEdo does very similar things to people she DOES push and yet she does nothing about this. This seems consciously inconsistent.

Fairly certain that's all I've said already with regards to Sakura. The fact that she got incredibly pissy and defending of rEdo rather than noting how weak any push I was putting on her (I didn't even vote her) indicates to me that there actually might be something to what I said before about rEdo/Sakura.

Quotes wrote:

Please tell me why you think he is town

The fun fact, is that I've stated quite the opposite.

Sakura wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

No.

In that game, I constantly pointed out that you were really obviously town. I have not once stated that same thing about Jinxy, only that he's town compared to everyone else. Now that you've slipped into a more nullish territory, he's the only real townread I have right now.

Uh that's not what I mean, I mean the way rEdo's buddying me feels similar how you kept obvtowning me that game (and you were scum)

...

Please quote specifically what you're responding to next time, please. I'll go re-look now that I know what you're talking about.

and I totally lost myself in that game

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

The answer doesn't reek as much, but I'm not liking it much either. It's his first time stating any kind of real read on Sakura, which is a little disturbing since this indicates it's a pretty strong town one. I can easily see this being a scumteam pairing or a buddying tactic.

However, that's the first problem with the 'scum buddying a town' argument. This is literally the only post I can see a hint of it in. I'll get into the second one at the bottom of this post.

Anyway, I've found another nugget in rEdo's ISO that I had skimmed over earlier due to my ever-present laziness when it comes to a lot of and/or giant posts.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

It's admitting Quotes is correct, then trying to downplay it and turn it back onto its sender.

And honestly, now that I've went through his ISO again, Irreversible looks a lot more like the target of a buddying tactic by rEdo. Even though the latter has been drilling the former for a decent chunk of the game, it doesn't look sincere. Then he drops the scumread for a reason I can't figure out.

Oh my, all these posts. Welcome Quotes.

FoS: rEdo

The sheeping is noticeable from miles away.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it.

It's true that rEdo always sticks with someone in every game I've played with him, but this one catches my attention as it seems more serious than in other games, which is more "sheeping for no reasons". Yeah, going with meta is somehow wrong, but it caught my attention.

Royston wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

still don't get why you unvoted so late..

I was afraid Lilac was going to modkill me for being retarded (see rule 1) or something like that.

Irreversible wrote:

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

wat

My 2nd post was a vote for rEdo. I have kept this vote ever since.

nvm to that then

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Yes, role and alignment will be revealed on death. This is a newbie game, far out.

If Rule 1 actually did apply, half of the players here would be modkilled. However, I'm sorta nice.

Saki, get here and post you. I will replace you with Sephibro if I have to.

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Quotes wrote:

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Your original question has no basis onto it. It's essentially a loaded question.

For a bonus, here is your response to that answer:

Quotes wrote:

Either is blatant buddying or is trying to use Sakura's act of being the one leading the Irreversible push as a reason why HE is townie, both of which are scummy.

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

This is slimy as all hell. Quotes originally asked rEdo why Sakura was scum (despite rEdo never once detailing any sort of suspicion of that kind), then turned around his answer to state that he should have tried to detail why he himself was not scum in the second line of his response post. It's putting enough doubt on his intentions that I can't think he believes in what he says in the first line.

The entire exchange is incredibly manipulative.

Unvote: Whoever I was voting
Vote: Quotes

I may need a sub as my laptop keyboard is essentially shot from spilling baileys all over it, and posting from a phone all the time sucks since I can't easily quote (hue) other posts to prove a point. It also means its harder to put pressure and near impossible to do a strong ISo on anyone.

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

You seem to assume that my thoughts on the game are "imma tunnel Sakura and redo super hard since I already know the scum" which is stupid. It's just useful

Quotes wrote:

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

For what reason are you asking this?

Quotes wrote:

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

I don't think you understood what I said. It's not the pressure itself, it's the way it was applied.

I don't know what's worse, Quotes asking irre for feedback, or him voting him for not giving feedback.

So I guess all his supposed interaction tells means nothing because there's not 3 scum in the game and a vote means his top scum read is Irre (see why voting is important)

Unvote
Vote: Quotes

@caligno that's either unresponsive or you really aren't explaining your vote on me well. From what I understand, you are voting for me because you a. Found my first question to be loaded (it was) and b. then proceeded to criticize redo when he does not answer it perfectly with assumptions based on his answer.

If this is the case, I answered that. It was to generate pressure in a short period of time. When I came in there were 3 days until deadline and the game is not super active. I decided that being hyper aggressive from the outset, regardless of whether my initial reads were correct or not might be a useful tool to pressure the two users that had received the least pressure all game.

I do not see what other method I can and should have used to create pressure on redo in such a short period of time and have 0 problems with how I played yesterday, outside of not taking as much time as I'd like to more fully ISo Sakura. Maybe I could have kept pressing redo since his answers weren't great, although far from obvscum.

No, you asked rEdo why Sakura is more likely to be scum then him, then later basically said that he should have explained why he's not mafia. The scope is entirely different and using that method looks more like mafia manipulation than town pressure.

I also just said that pressure is not the issue, it's the way the pressure was added.

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

Irreversible is being anti town in not answering my question. In addition to the fact that a. I already pointed out my case on you was weak but useful/interesting, there still is the redo interaction on backing off on voting him and then proceeding not to explain well (correct me if I have missed this) what these supposed "town points" that made him unvote are.

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

Quotes wrote:

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

I'm not pressing you, i'm getting scum lynched.

LOL, please explain why. I can understand if I hurt your feeling by calling you out on your bad early game play but you having a complex about that does not justify a vote on me.

I've always been voting my scumreads, and you haven't done much redemption on your slot which i originally thought was scum, you did lots of posts saying why rEdo and I were scum together then you vote Irre which means that now rEdo and me cant be scum together, you wasted lots of time trying to explain it, and it's all lost, and now you basically have nothing, pretty much scum muddying the waters and spreading mist to confuse town.

tl;dr: You were pushing rEdo's buddying as an attempt to get 2 easy mislynches, then you start subtly inviting more votes on your reads by asking other players their thoughts on it, when Irre catches it and decides to stay out of it, you immediately vote him, nullifying all you did and exposing you as the scumbag that you are.

But that wasn't what I did at all. I noted an incredibly odd interaction between you and redo and explained how they were my preliminary thoughts on the game and reading through did little to change this. I then pressed redo (and you slightly but I want to do so more) and gave a fairly good ISo on him that no one has commented on. Is my ISo unfair? Am I twisting his words in places?

As for your accusation of "there aren't 3 scum" you are right. I happen to still like redo as scum, but since I recognize my case on why I initially believed you to be scum is weak and I haven't done a strong ISo on you yet to feel confident in "these are the two scum"; it was just a useful stance to take early on to see how redo and you reacted to it.

I am voting for irreversible because I tend to agree with caligno when he said he thought irreversible could be a partner for redo backing off the vote with not the best reasoning and because, as I have said 5 times already, my case on you is weak. Do you need me to say it again?

And how does irreversible refusing to answer a question on his thoughts regarding 2 players constitute as scummy? The only thing remotely scummy in this reaction is for irreversible to refuse to answer the question.

It should be fairly clear why I am asking irreversible the question on what his thoughts on the two of you are. It's because that has been a large topic of discussion recently, and I want to see if he has an odd read or reaction to either you or redo, especially considering I ask this question after caligno's speculation on that being a potential partnership

Constitute as me being scummy*

Quotes wrote:

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

...No? The best way to show you're innocent is to show you're innocent, not tell people that you're innocent. Of course, you also heavily limited his ability to show his innocence by reducing his options of building a case to one other person.

Yeah, that still looks a lot like manipulating guilt over scumhunting.

Your ISO on rEdo didnt go unignored, in fact what you pointed out made me realize he was blatantly budyding me and I noted it (as I pointed out before), then you proceeded to misrep me and said I was townreading him and defending him, and now you're contradicting yourself again saying that you didnt think I was as scummy and all that.

The way you're asking for feedback seems like you're subtly asking for a player on a mislynch, why do YOU have to ask for feedback on other players on your case?, if they had noticed it they would have mentioned it.

Now, at this point your lynch is what I think will give Town the most information, because the way you tried to associate both rEdo and me doesn't look like busing on him at all, so if you flip scum, i'd get a high townread on rEdo, while if you flip town, I'll know that your case was town motivated and will be looking into rEdo more tomorrow.

Not what I said.

If I ask you "explain why tacos are better than pizza," you typically want to discuss why tacos are good, why pizza is not so good, and then making a comparison. This is not, as you seem to imply, the primary motivation behind why I find him to be scum; you can find that in the ISo. I agree that behavior is a much better sign of whether someone is scum or not than the ability to correctly explain an answer to a question. However, I wanted an answer to the question that I gave him

Your only post regarding redo's scum mines to my memory after the ISo was "redo's buddying has been noted" which I interpreted as " this is anti town but I still don't think he is scum" that is in effect a town read in my mind. You then, after implying you have a town read on him in a later post, state you do not have a town read on him but then did not state why or to what degree. I continue to think that there really wasn't much in any of your posts that would lead me to believe you thought of redo as scum until that point. I am glad that you agree that there are things to look into with regards to redo but think that my initial belief that you continued to think of him as town is justified. I'm not a mind reader

I asked him because he has not been contributing all that much on his own, and typically, asking questions of players who may not be making the most contributions on their own can offer at least some insight into what they think is going on and can raise activity. I can't really think of a reasonable explanation for why someone would refuse to answer that question. Outright refusal is different than stating "I don't know" or "I do not have a strong opinion on the matter" both of which, while I probably would press, are at least somewhat responsive

You're making a completely faulty comparison.

1. That type of logic only works when rEdo has a scumread on Sakura, which there was no evidence for whatsoever. No one worth their salt is going to try to get a townread of theirs lynched.
2. The example you're making combines two things in a completely different way, specifically only the relative correlation to each other. The question you asked has to take in account the direct value of both things as well, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense (see #1).

I never once said that was your primary reason for finding him mafia. All I'm saying is that suddenly it all looks like a manipulative ploy over genuine scumhunting.

Fair point; I didn't expect a scum read from redo on Sakura so I suppose getting a slightly jumbled response is understandable. Maybe the follow up question wasn't as effective as I thought it would be. I thought being big scary guy with tons of pressure and an ISo would make questioning from a "I know you are scum" mindset would be effective

I guess so, for the record when i make notes is because scummy behavior, you still were wrong in assuming that I was townreading him tho.

And as I said, you're voting Irre, this directly correlates to him being your top scum read, so your assumption of rEdo being my scumbuddy crumbled, your case on rEdo still stands, and I still think I want you dead.

Btw

@Everyone: please remember that you have to hammer to get a lynch, it's in the rules

Unvote

Alright Caligno, your activity increased, and currently there's no sense to leave the vote on you. What bothers me though that you mostly say 'this is wrong, you've thought about that wrong' etc.

Vote: Quotes

I suppose you've asked me that question so in the end you can say 'oh you didn't tell this and that, he/she must be your scumbuddy', well, this makes actually no sense since you were always putting pressure on reDo and Sakura, so what now? It's more like you want someone lynched instead of real scumhunting, which is not really townlike.

I have never heard or thought that about votes, in terms of always having a vote on suspect number 1. In my mind, as long as during the day I am voting for someone scummy, I can change it to my most scummy read before deadline and can apply pressure to multiple people. I do not find irre's play to be incredibly pro town so I voted for him.

@irreversible I still don't understand why you refuse to answer the question. There is no reason why l