It does, newbies arent bastard

Partner speculation early on will really hurt town in the long run, suppose you lynch me, I flip town then you're gonna say "So rEdo's scum for buddying her" suppose he flips town too, then you're at LyLo with zero info to go on and scumhunt, if someone flips scum then yes, their interactions are something to look at.

Otherwise looks like a nice way for scum to setup mislynches for others.

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

Ok I was going to be really mad if I was in a game with no cardflip. I hate no cardflip, there's no reward after a lynch of knowing you lynched correctly or not.

Sakura wrote:

So you werent paying attention to the votes, yet you noticed that rEdo voted him (even tho it was L-2 and not L-1 vote)

...Seriously? I thought it was obvious that I meant the votecount, since the extra requirement makes it harder to know which votes actually count. Who the heck doesn't notice bolded votes?

rEdo wrote:

plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D

Trying to explain away an anti-town tell with the classic "I always do that" excuse, I see.

rEdo wrote:

I could also browse through [Quotes's] ISO thoroughly, but [he] just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Wait, what? This is pinging me. Someone else catches you being inconsistent, and you're calling him scummy for it?
Vote: rEdo

Sakura wrote:

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

What's the TvS tell?

TvS tell when scum sees 2 townies arguing and says "This is a Town vs Scum fight" hence gets one lynched and flips town and goes "Oh then the scum is the other one" then lynches the other one who also flips town, then they scored 2 mislynches without much effort, which is why when someone says that they consider it a scumtell.

Unvote

Well, first of all, I understand the word 'flip' itself, but I don't really get the meaning of it - what do you mean with that when you're talking about it? Sakura, you've asked me this question once, and I didn't answer to it, because I didn't understand why you I were voting without flipping.

Secondly, reDo, you're wagonning so much aren't you? You've just did it again. Mostly with Sakura as well, but I don't think you both would make it so suspicious. With your last post that kook isn't posting you've made yourself a bit more scumside, because you've mentioned him several times in your post, which shows me a kind of panic that people get their votes on you, while you try to put attention on kook.

About Caligno: Why so quiet AGAIN?

And Quotes: About the random voting stuff. I thought you mean the normal posts, but as I saw you were talking about the first random votes, well, ok.

flipping is when the mod reveals the alignment and role of a player (usually by death)

Irreversible wrote:

Secondly, reDo, you're wagonning so much aren't you? You've just did it again. Mostly with Sakura as well, but I don't think you both would make it so suspicious. With your last post that kook isn't posting you've made yourself a bit more scumside, because you've mentioned him several times in your post, which shows me a kind of panic that people get their votes on you, while you try to put attention on kook.

not necessarily wagoning, I just wanted to clarify the fact that kook wasn't active at all, while giving me a gloomy feeling with his posts. that's why I'm forcing that statement, and that I'd like to hear why Quotes would not be scum. however, he has no real ISO except for accusing me, and that's rather frustrating that he can just mock people with a high possibility of being scum himself, and nobody can post anything against him. also, at the same time Quotes got into the game, Jinxy gave me a feeling of being way more confident in his posts, and that gave me even more of a gloomy feeling, hence my vote.

Where the heck did I make a TvS argument? I'm telling people that both Sakura and rEdo are mafia. I fail to see at what point I am painting this idea of "one of the two are scum"

Sakura wrote:

And yes i consider your interaction analisis almost as bad as the TvS tell.

learn2read

And back to your analysis if we 2 were scum, what would be the purpose of avoiding interaction with my scumpartner?

Alright, let's go back to Caligno then, won't unvote until he made a clear post he's town.

CalignoBot

I'm a bit unsure about this wagoning all the time, but since CalignoBot made the worse ones imo, my vote stays on him.

Vote: CalignoBot omg sorry ¬¬

Irreversible wrote:

About Caligno: Why so quiet AGAIN?

Two entire pages popped up while I was asleep and I'm never in a mood to catch up on that amount of posts until I've been awake for a few hours. If you're going to try to use that argument, take times into account.

I have yet to see a remotely persuasive case from you, too.

Sakura wrote:

Normally when people replace into scumslots tend to give some amished tell, which is why when people replace in I always ask them their thoughts on their predecessor.

Yeah, no. The amished tell only works when they're not told to give their thoughts.

---

The L-1 issue is dead null.

Sakura+rEdo scumteam has some merit after the top of page 19. That's not a persuasive point at all to vote for the single most protown player in the game up to this point. If one of them ends up flipping scum, the other goes straight to the top of my list. It really irks me how both of them tried to turn the tables back on Quotes after he put pressure on them as a first response.

I thought you were better than that, considering how you super buddied me on tit for tat when you were scum knowing I was town.

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

@Sakura, how have you not responded to my ISO on rEdo yet? Is there something I am missing or are incorrect in assuming in my read on him? Clearly you implicitly think I am wrong in my read by continuing to believe that I am wrong in my push, but yet say absolutely nothing about your own thoughts on rEdo and why you think what you do.

Please tell me why you think he is town

Please Quotes, this is so senseless. I don't think either of them would be so stupid that they would make it so obvious - if they were scumpartners, they would act differently, I strongly suppose. It COULD be one of them is scum, but I dont think they're scumpartners.

What about the inactive ones btw?

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

This is WIFOM and incorrect at the same time. It is WIFOM because doing something because it is "too obvious" becomes an infinite cycle, where if the mafia believe they can appear town by doing it, they will. You are also incorrect because the manner in which you interact is so over the top in the buddying that it becomes a scummy parody of itself.

about giving you a decent reason why I'm not scum - I've tried to make people who looked scummy in my eyes talk. my suspects were kook, recently Jinxy and Irreversible so far, and since I saw Sakura trying to make him talk, I didn't see a reason why I shouldn't tag along - pressure from even more people makes people more likely to talk. I have indeed buddied up to Sakura at that point, but that's the end to it. however, I haven't heard a single word from kook yet, which leaves me really unsatisfied. as for now I could say that Royston is also acting pretty weird, but it's not enough for me to make any accusiations, as right now I wanna push an another wagon anyway, and I believe I'm working in a good way.

I've already noted that your making Irreversible talk was fairly pro-town.

Your votes on kook still irk me. Admittedly I should be biased in that regard since I essentially am kook now, but I feel as though my ISO outlined fairly well why your push on him felt inauthentic. You pushed him when he was not lurky - he was afk, and fairly obviously so.

I haven't really looked too closely at the Jinxy vote but it looks like it was mostly based on him posting something incorrect based on me being incorrect. This comes off as "I don't like what Quotes posted but he scares me, so I will vote for someone that agrees with him." Will re-read the more recent posts because it's clear my look through before already has had some mistakes (as is evidenced by misreading Sakura's TvS thing)

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

like I said, I haven't heard a word from kook yet, and this is where I ask you the same question - please give me a reason why you aren't scum. that whole accusiation just pings me even harder that you've got potential to be scum. I could also browse through your ISO thoroughly, but you just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Me thinking you are scum does not make me scum. I've already called out the most active player (Sakura) on shit and will continue to do so, since everyone else but Caligno seems unwilling to do so. I posted the ISO on you because you stood out the most as the most obvious scum. The Sakura thing came later when I asked myself who would be your most likely partner. My posts have been spur of the moment and honest in my own estimation, although I can see if you have trouble seeing that I am being honest with calling you scum! I also apparently didn't fail whatever test Sakura was doing. I've explained most of my thoughts regarding lynches and on who I believe scum to be and have backed them up with evidence.

Am I missing anything?

@rEdo, what did Irreversible do to earn enough "townie points" for you to take your vote off of him?

Sakura wrote:

It does, newbies arent bastard

Partner speculation early on will really hurt town in the long run, suppose you lynch me, I flip town then you're gonna say "So rEdo's scum for buddying her" suppose he flips town too, then you're at LyLo with zero info to go on and scumhunt, if someone flips scum then yes, their interactions are something to look at.

Otherwise looks like a nice way for scum to setup mislynches for others.

Sakura, I didn't know that I was voting for you. The only way that your argument holds weight is if you are the one that is lynched today. If rEdo is lynched and comes up town, you come off as neutral (it just means rEdo thought you were town, and either you were purposefully playing into his buddying or legitimately had a very strong town read on him or simply didnt notice a lack of pressure on your behalf). I have done very little to accuse you of being scum directly, I am just making the point that your interactions with rEdo have been incredibly weird and worth noting come day 2 if rEdo flips scum. I have no strong opinions on any of the other players in this regard since I have literally just subbed in.

I haven't yet done a strong ISO on you yet; I just glanced over it for rEdo interaction to see if my initial hunch in the game had any bearing. It seems it did, so I shared as much. There is no reason for me to withhold information that could be used to locate a 2nd scum.

For an outline of the admittedly limited reasons I have stated for why Sakura is worth putting pressure on:

1. Wasted the village's time early game in
a. kook lynch
b. speculation regarding whether what he was doing was role phishing
c. Arguing over what he did was really IIoA or not

This shit went on for 10 pages. Either is a function of Sakura having a complex of never being wrong or of wanting to waste the village's time. She's very clearly been the one leading the discussions, and when so much time is wasted on a player who isn't going to respond, you deserve criticism. Own it, you played badly early game. Your more recent interactions with me do not inspire confidence with me

2. The interactions with rEdo are weird.

I outlined them both in the Sakura quick ISO post and the rEdo iso post. rEdo does very similar things to people she DOES push and yet she does nothing about this. This seems consciously inconsistent.

Fairly certain that's all I've said already with regards to Sakura. The fact that she got incredibly pissy and defending of rEdo rather than noting how weak any push I was putting on her (I didn't even vote her) indicates to me that there actually might be something to what I said before about rEdo/Sakura.

Quotes wrote:

Please tell me why you think he is town

The fun fact, is that I've stated quite the opposite.

Sakura wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

You should be able to tell the difference between that situation and this one pretty easily.

The only difference that I can see is that I was lynchbait there.

No.

In that game, I constantly pointed out that you were really obviously town. I have not once stated that same thing about Jinxy, only that he's town compared to everyone else. Now that you've slipped into a more nullish territory, he's the only real townread I have right now.

Uh that's not what I mean, I mean the way rEdo's buddying me feels similar how you kept obvtowning me that game (and you were scum)

...

Please quote specifically what you're responding to next time, please. I'll go re-look now that I know what you're talking about.

and I totally lost myself in that game

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

The answer doesn't reek as much, but I'm not liking it much either. It's his first time stating any kind of real read on Sakura, which is a little disturbing since this indicates it's a pretty strong town one. I can easily see this being a scumteam pairing or a buddying tactic.

However, that's the first problem with the 'scum buddying a town' argument. This is literally the only post I can see a hint of it in. I'll get into the second one at the bottom of this post.

Anyway, I've found another nugget in rEdo's ISO that I had skimmed over earlier due to my ever-present laziness when it comes to a lot of and/or giant posts.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it. plus I tend to buddy up to people in my games :­D if we both were scum, we wouldn't just blatantly duo-force people to talk, that would seem way too obvious for air-headed people like you, isn't that right? Sakura seems rather town to me, so I guessed it would be easier to say that she's hunting scum that actually defending myself, since you wouldn't believe me with this attitude anyway.

It's admitting Quotes is correct, then trying to downplay it and turn it back onto its sender.

And honestly, now that I've went through his ISO again, Irreversible looks a lot more like the target of a buddying tactic by rEdo. Even though the latter has been drilling the former for a decent chunk of the game, it doesn't look sincere. Then he drops the scumread for a reason I can't figure out.

Oh my, all these posts. Welcome Quotes.

FoS: rEdo

The sheeping is noticeable from miles away.

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

the reason is simple - our scumsuspects were similar, and that's it.

It's true that rEdo always sticks with someone in every game I've played with him, but this one catches my attention as it seems more serious than in other games, which is more "sheeping for no reasons". Yeah, going with meta is somehow wrong, but it caught my attention.

Royston wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

still don't get why you unvoted so late..

I was afraid Lilac was going to modkill me for being retarded (see rule 1) or something like that.

Irreversible wrote:

Quote, if you write so much, why don't you just give your vote? seems quite unnecessary that you write tons of text with no action behind it. probably all reaction test, but yeah

wat

My 2nd post was a vote for rEdo. I have kept this vote ever since.

nvm to that then

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Yes, role and alignment will be revealed on death. This is a newbie game, far out.

If Rule 1 actually did apply, half of the players here would be modkilled. However, I'm sorta nice.

Saki, get here and post you. I will replace you with Sephibro if I have to.

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

CalignoBot wrote:

One thing in particular stood out while I was rereading rEdo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why should I vote for Sakura instead of you?

rEdo wrote:

there's no reason why you should vote for either Sakura or me. Sakura has been trying to push people under the wall in order to force them to talk, and that's what I also tried to make kook talk. we also pushed Irreversible to make him talk, and look, that actually worked since he stated his thoughts about this game so far. that rEdo/Sakura scumteam you've mentioned wouldn't so blatantly push the same person at the same time, don't you think?

FoS: Quotes

That question reeks. Really badly.

Quotes wrote:

Why is the question scummy? It's essentially the same question as "what are your thoughts on Sakura" with added pressure.

Your original question has no basis onto it. It's essentially a loaded question.

For a bonus, here is your response to that answer:

Quotes wrote:

Either is blatant buddying or is trying to use Sakura's act of being the one leading the Irreversible push as a reason why HE is townie, both of which are scummy.

Why are you trying so hard to defeat the you/Sakura scumteam and defend Sakura instead of giving me a decent reason why YOU aren't scum?

This is slimy as all hell. Quotes originally asked rEdo why Sakura was scum (despite rEdo never once detailing any sort of suspicion of that kind), then turned around his answer to state that he should have tried to detail why he himself was not scum in the second line of his response post. It's putting enough doubt on his intentions that I can't think he believes in what he says in the first line.

The entire exchange is incredibly manipulative.

Unvote: Whoever I was voting
Vote: Quotes

I may need a sub as my laptop keyboard is essentially shot from spilling baileys all over it, and posting from a phone all the time sucks since I can't easily quote (hue) other posts to prove a point. It also means its harder to put pressure and near impossible to do a strong ISo on anyone.

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

You seem to assume that my thoughts on the game are "imma tunnel Sakura and redo super hard since I already know the scum" which is stupid. It's just useful

Quotes wrote:

@irreversable, what do you think of rEdo and Sakura? Do you find either of them scummy? If you had to choose which one is MORE scummy out of the two, which would you choose and why?

For what reason are you asking this?

Quotes wrote:

@caligno why do you have a problem with me placing pressure on a player when we only have, what, 2 days left? I do not see the harm in asking leading or loaded questions if these questions serve a purpose. They set from the outset that I probably had a fairly strong scum read on redo, am an aggressive player, and that simply sheeping along with other players isn't acceptable. They also set in some level of panic regardless of alliance and village panic vs mafia panic are often distinguishable

I don't think you understood what I said. It's not the pressure itself, it's the way it was applied.

I don't know what's worse, Quotes asking irre for feedback, or him voting him for not giving feedback.

So I guess all his supposed interaction tells means nothing because there's not 3 scum in the game and a vote means his top scum read is Irre (see why voting is important)

Unvote
Vote: Quotes

@caligno that's either unresponsive or you really aren't explaining your vote on me well. From what I understand, you are voting for me because you a. Found my first question to be loaded (it was) and b. then proceeded to criticize redo when he does not answer it perfectly with assumptions based on his answer.

If this is the case, I answered that. It was to generate pressure in a short period of time. When I came in there were 3 days until deadline and the game is not super active. I decided that being hyper aggressive from the outset, regardless of whether my initial reads were correct or not might be a useful tool to pressure the two users that had received the least pressure all game.

I do not see what other method I can and should have used to create pressure on redo in such a short period of time and have 0 problems with how I played yesterday, outside of not taking as much time as I'd like to more fully ISo Sakura. Maybe I could have kept pressing redo since his answers weren't great, although far from obvscum.

No, you asked rEdo why Sakura is more likely to be scum then him, then later basically said that he should have explained why he's not mafia. The scope is entirely different and using that method looks more like mafia manipulation than town pressure.

I also just said that pressure is not the issue, it's the way the pressure was added.

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

Irreversible is being anti town in not answering my question. In addition to the fact that a. I already pointed out my case on you was weak but useful/interesting, there still is the redo interaction on backing off on voting him and then proceeding not to explain well (correct me if I have missed this) what these supposed "town points" that made him unvote are.

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

Quotes wrote:

@sakura, why have you backed off on pressing players? My being in the game does not mean that you should sit by and do nothing. Your post to vote for me adds nothing but numerical pressure to me, which differs from how you have played the rest of the game.

I'm not pressing you, i'm getting scum lynched.

LOL, please explain why. I can understand if I hurt your feeling by calling you out on your bad early game play but you having a complex about that does not justify a vote on me.

I've always been voting my scumreads, and you haven't done much redemption on your slot which i originally thought was scum, you did lots of posts saying why rEdo and I were scum together then you vote Irre which means that now rEdo and me cant be scum together, you wasted lots of time trying to explain it, and it's all lost, and now you basically have nothing, pretty much scum muddying the waters and spreading mist to confuse town.

tl;dr: You were pushing rEdo's buddying as an attempt to get 2 easy mislynches, then you start subtly inviting more votes on your reads by asking other players their thoughts on it, when Irre catches it and decides to stay out of it, you immediately vote him, nullifying all you did and exposing you as the scumbag that you are.

But that wasn't what I did at all. I noted an incredibly odd interaction between you and redo and explained how they were my preliminary thoughts on the game and reading through did little to change this. I then pressed redo (and you slightly but I want to do so more) and gave a fairly good ISo on him that no one has commented on. Is my ISo unfair? Am I twisting his words in places?

As for your accusation of "there aren't 3 scum" you are right. I happen to still like redo as scum, but since I recognize my case on why I initially believed you to be scum is weak and I haven't done a strong ISo on you yet to feel confident in "these are the two scum"; it was just a useful stance to take early on to see how redo and you reacted to it.

I am voting for irreversible because I tend to agree with caligno when he said he thought irreversible could be a partner for redo backing off the vote with not the best reasoning and because, as I have said 5 times already, my case on you is weak. Do you need me to say it again?

And how does irreversible refusing to answer a question on his thoughts regarding 2 players constitute as scummy? The only thing remotely scummy in this reaction is for irreversible to refuse to answer the question.

It should be fairly clear why I am asking irreversible the question on what his thoughts on the two of you are. It's because that has been a large topic of discussion recently, and I want to see if he has an odd read or reaction to either you or redo, especially considering I ask this question after caligno's speculation on that being a potential partnership

Constitute as me being scummy*

Quotes wrote:

To answer why someone is scum mixer than you, typically it is important to explain why you yourself are not scummy.

...No? The best way to show you're innocent is to show you're innocent, not tell people that you're innocent. Of course, you also heavily limited his ability to show his innocence by reducing his options of building a case to one other person.

Yeah, that still looks a lot like manipulating guilt over scumhunting.

Your ISO on rEdo didnt go unignored, in fact what you pointed out made me realize he was blatantly budyding me and I noted it (as I pointed out before), then you proceeded to misrep me and said I was townreading him and defending him, and now you're contradicting yourself again saying that you didnt think I was as scummy and all that.

The way you're asking for feedback seems like you're subtly asking for a player on a mislynch, why do YOU have to ask for feedback on other players on your case?, if they had noticed it they would have mentioned it.

Now, at this point your lynch is what I think will give Town the most information, because the way you tried to associate both rEdo and me doesn't look like busing on him at all, so if you flip scum, i'd get a high townread on rEdo, while if you flip town, I'll know that your case was town motivated and will be looking into rEdo more tomorrow.

Not what I said.

If I ask you "explain why tacos are better than pizza," you typically want to discuss why tacos are good, why pizza is not so good, and then making a comparison. This is not, as you seem to imply, the primary motivation behind why I find him to be scum; you can find that in the ISo. I agree that behavior is a much better sign of whether someone is scum or not than the ability to correctly explain an answer to a question. However, I wanted an answer to the question that I gave him

Your only post regarding redo's scum mines to my memory after the ISo was "redo's buddying has been noted" which I interpreted as " this is anti town but I still don't think he is scum" that is in effect a town read in my mind. You then, after implying you have a town read on him in a later post, state you do not have a town read on him but then did not state why or to what degree. I continue to think that there really wasn't much in any of your posts that would lead me to believe you thought of redo as scum until that point. I am glad that you agree that there are things to look into with regards to redo but think that my initial belief that you continued to think of him as town is justified. I'm not a mind reader

I asked him because he has not been contributing all that much on his own, and typically, asking questions of players who may not be making the most contributions on their own can offer at least some insight into what they think is going on and can raise activity. I can't really think of a reasonable explanation for why someone would refuse to answer that question. Outright refusal is different than stating "I don't know" or "I do not have a strong opinion on the matter" both of which, while I probably would press, are at least somewhat responsive

You're making a completely faulty comparison.

1. That type of logic only works when rEdo has a scumread on Sakura, which there was no evidence for whatsoever. No one worth their salt is going to try to get a townread of theirs lynched.
2. The example you're making combines two things in a completely different way, specifically only the relative correlation to each other. The question you asked has to take in account the direct value of both things as well, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense (see #1).

I never once said that was your primary reason for finding him mafia. All I'm saying is that suddenly it all looks like a manipulative ploy over genuine scumhunting.

Fair point; I didn't expect a scum read from redo on Sakura so I suppose getting a slightly jumbled response is understandable. Maybe the follow up question wasn't as effective as I thought it would be. I thought being big scary guy with tons of pressure and an ISo would make questioning from a "I know you are scum" mindset would be effective

I guess so, for the record when i make notes is because scummy behavior, you still were wrong in assuming that I was townreading him tho.

And as I said, you're voting Irre, this directly correlates to him being your top scum read, so your assumption of rEdo being my scumbuddy crumbled, your case on rEdo still stands, and I still think I want you dead.

Btw

@Everyone: please remember that you have to hammer to get a lynch, it's in the rules

Unvote

Alright Caligno, your activity increased, and currently there's no sense to leave the vote on you. What bothers me though that you mostly say 'this is wrong, you've thought about that wrong' etc.

Vote: Quotes

I suppose you've asked me that question so in the end you can say 'oh you didn't tell this and that, he/she must be your scumbuddy', well, this makes actually no sense since you were always putting pressure on reDo and Sakura, so what now? It's more like you want someone lynched instead of real scumhunting, which is not really townlike.

I have never heard or thought that about votes, in terms of always having a vote on suspect number 1. In my mind, as long as during the day I am voting for someone scummy, I can change it to my most scummy read before deadline and can apply pressure to multiple people. I do not find irre's play to be incredibly pro town so I voted for him.

@irreversible I still don't understand why you refuse to answer the question. There is no reason why l

IC Hat.
If you're not voting your top scumread you are doing something wrong.

A vote implies by all means that it is your top scumread, use FoS for anything else.

A vote is movement towards you agreeing that the person deserves to death, so obviously you would be voting for the person you think is most likely to flip scum.

And there's no ambiguity with votes, Anyone can ask you "Why are you voting X?" while if someone asks you "Why are you suspecting X" you can say "No im not suspecting him, you may think i have implied it because Y"

/IC Hat

And i don't understand why you really want me to answer it. You're the most probable scum now, so your question leads into the fact that only one of them is scum. Which means, one of them is your scumbuddy, which makes no sense.

Oops

Logically you can't both say that any way that I might use those questions or answers is scummy while still answering the questions. Your and sakura's objections to how I could potentially use the answers to those questions are duly noted, but there is nothing inherently wrong with the question. The question is simply asking a. Thoughts on redo, b. thoughts on Sakura, c. Compare which you think is more town. I do not know all that much about your thoughts on this game and its players so I would like for you to share them

how can someone be more town? either he's town or scum, there's nothing in between. read my stuff and figure out what i'm thinking

what about dake btw? seems a bit uninterested in the game u.u

So quotes if you're indeed a mislynch there must be obviously some scum in this wagon, or maybe there isn't, but I know from experience that when town is on the frying pan they can see more clearly who is the scum.

Do you think scum is pushing your wagon? Do you think scum is just riding your wagon? Do you think scum is absent from your wagon?

Sakura wrote:

IC Hat.
If you're not voting your top scumread you are doing something wrong.

A vote implies by all means that it is your top scumread, use FoS for anything else.

A vote is movement towards you agreeing that the person deserves to death, so obviously you would be voting for the person you think is most likely to flip scum.

And there's no ambiguity with votes, Anyone can ask you "Why are you voting X?" while if someone asks you "Why are you suspecting X" you can say "No im not suspecting him, you may think i have implied it because Y"

/IC Hat

I guess it does miscommunicate my beliefs.

unvote
vote: redo
fos: irreversible

Irreversible wrote:

Alright Caligno, your activity increased, and currently there's no sense to leave the vote on you. What bothers me though that you mostly say 'this is wrong, you've thought about that wrong' etc.

This looks so forced.

@sakura caligno has been one of my biggest town reads and his pushing this lynch hasn't really changed that. I don't have a good read on you. Irreversibles post was pretty terrible and seems to cling to you justifying his not answering my question as a motivation behind the vote. But considering I had a vote on him it could just be angry omgus town. I'm inclined to lean scum though

Now about your previous interaction analysis. Here's a better way of doing it without flips, I dont 100% agree with this method, but it's also a good one to try before flips.

Known fact: There's 2 scum.

What to do:

1. Find person that is scummy.
2. Find another person that is scummy.
3. Check if their interactions tie them together.
If yes: Start pushing one of them while keeping an eye on the other.
If no: Repeat Number 2.
If you go through all players and you dont find anyone tied up with Number 1, Number 1 is more likely to be scummy towny than scummy scum.

EBWODP: If you dont find anyone scummy tiped up with Number 1.

*tied

Jeesh im full of typos today.

Sakura, did you work like this method you've just pointed out?

Irreversible wrote:

Sakura, did you work like this method you've just pointed out?

I don't always use it, since i prefer working with flips. This game, nope I haven't used it.

@irreversible why are you voting for me when you are clearly not reading my posts. You either are blatantly ignoring the fact that there are neither scum motivations in the questions themselves nor is there any pro town motivation to ignoring them.

For the third time, I am asking you for your opinions on players in the game because you have been fairly scummy in my mind and you have not to my knowledge done much sharing your opinions on very many players. I asked for opinions on those two players as they were the ones I had talked about most and were where most recent discussion had been directed.

Even if after actually reading my posts you think I am still scummy, thinking someone is scum does not give you an excuse to not listen to what they are saying. You can hold it to a higher level of scrutiny and should, but to blatantly ignore my posts is incredibly anti-town, and keeping a vote on me without even trying to understand what I am trying to do does absolutely no good for the village.

Tl;dr answer my questions

What do you think of redo?
What do you think of Sakura?
If you had to choose which one you found more scummy than the other, which would you choose and why?

Quotes wrote:

Tl;dr answer my questions

What do you think of redo?
What do you think of Sakura?
If you had to choose which one you found more scummy than the other, which would you choose and why?

This is exactly what is scummy about your questions, you're only asking him about me or rEdo and ignoring the rest of the playerlist, if you asked him to give his thoughts on everyone then probably it wouldn't be as bad (or not bad at all)

Really I've lost this post twice

Asking about everyone doesn't make sense since there hasn't been much between his last few posts and from my question regarding users like jinxy and saki for him to change his mind, whereas most discussion was regarding you and redo, including an ISo on redo.

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, what did Irreversible do to earn enough "townie points" for you to take your vote off of him?

he's posted his thoughts with proper reasoning, and that was enough (for now) to make me think he's town. I'm keeping my eye on him, though.

but yeah, throwing your FoS at him just because he refused to reply your questions made me chuckle. also, I want to mention that you've never actually replied my reverse question why you aren't scum (you've quoted the entire p/2564734 post EXCEPT FOR the part where I ask you a question), but yet told so many people to state their opinions about me and Sakura. forcing the idea of me being scum just because I wanted to make kook talk and that I buddied up to Sakura because we had the same scum suspect? I'm sorry, but sounds like bullshit.


Unvote
Vote: Quotes

it's a L-1, by the way.

Mod: please prod Royston.

that should be it for that, I'm way too tired to post for now, also this post is kind of a prod dodge... was studying for like 6 hours straight. enough of analysis for me today x_x"

That is a blatant lie

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

like I said, I haven't heard a word from kook yet, and this is where I ask you the same question - please give me a reason why you aren't scum. that whole accusiation just pings me even harder that you've got potential to be scum. I could also browse through your ISO thoroughly, but you just popped out of nowhere and picked a person which changed his opinions more than everybody else, which places me in a worse spot as a townie just in order to get an easy lynch today.

Me thinking you are scum does not make me scum. I've already called out the most active player (Sakura) on shit and will continue to do so, since everyone else but Caligno seems unwilling to do so. I posted the ISO on you because you stood out the most as the most obvious scum. The Sakura thing came later when I asked myself who would be your most likely partner. My posts have been spur of the moment and honest in my own estimation, although I can see if you have trouble seeing that I am being honest with calling you scum! I also apparently didn't fail whatever test Sakura was doing. I've explained most of my thoughts regarding lynches and on who I believe scum to be and have backed them up with evidence.

Am I missing anything?[/quote]

p/2565079

no, scratch it, I actually missed that one paragraph where you reply. still, I ain't gonna be a scapegoat for you.

^ yeah, I just noticed that

It's fine i've missed things this game before

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

I didn't necessarily change the habit of buddying since I tagged along Sakura in Irreversible's case.

@redo, so to clarify, you find me scummy because I wanted people to focus on you and Sakura?

I did this because hardly anyone else had done so beforehand. It would be ignorant and anti-town for me not to put pressure on a. a strong scum suspect (you) and b. the most talkative and controlling townie who hadnt had too much pressure all game (although I could have done much better, Sakura)

rEdo wrote:

Quotes wrote:

@rEdo, why would you buddy in past games, but only change now that habit? I can imagine you have been called out on this before. Why make this change NOW?

I didn't necessarily change the habit of buddying since I tagged along Sakura in Irreversible's case.

I was referring to where you said "but I won't do it anymore," not to what you did beforehand.

Quotes wrote:

@redo, so to clarify, you find me scummy because I wanted people to focus on you and Sakura?

providing you're scum, that would be a really comfortable play for you to start accusing people right off the bat when you get into the game in like the 18th page where your predecessor hasn't said virtually anything, and nobody really has any argument to use against you yet, even though kook was considered scummy before.

Quotes wrote:

I was referring to where you said "but I won't do it anymore," not to what you did beforehand.

people tend to bitch about that in my every game, and I grew tired of it. >_>"

It's proactive town play to come in accusing people of being scum. I am a fresh face and from a first glance, I had ascertained that you were my top scum suspect (and had received very little attention before) and that Sakura was essentially leading most of the topics of discussion. There is no reason for me not to come in and accuse people of being scum. That's what you're supposed to do to find mafia. - you pressure people and you make sure that everyone receives some pressure that you can use later on. Day 1 is by far the most important day of mafia imo, so using the little amount of time that I had in day 1 effectively was a priority. I'm recognizing now from Sakura and Caligno's posts that my play may not have been ideal but I still very much stand by the motivations for pressing you and Sakura, and I still fail to see how my focus on you two as a scumteam was inherently scummy, although Sakura's point about playing it more passively and asking for interactions between the two of you may have been better. Then again, given Sakura's and your incredibly limited direct interaction, perhaps not.

As it is a new page,

I AM AT L-1. PLEASE HOLD OFF ON VOTING FOR ME, EVEN IF YOU ARE INCLINED TO DO SO.

We still have a reasonable amount of time left in the day so we should use as much of it as humanly possible.

I'll be back in like 30 minutes.

If it approves that you're scum i'm going to vote caligno next, because you always are talking super suspciously good about him, which is not a good idea imo.

and wtf, that escalated quickly. quotes it seems like you're panicking right now? for my question: currently, i think both are town. but as I said, it depends what happens next.

Quotes, give me some exact reason why I should think you're town

>it's proactive town play
and having that in mind and getting a scum role after kook, you decided to blatantly push a person that seemed most scummy (except from your scum partner) just to get an easy lynch on a townie.

that should do for today. I'm seriously way too tired to talk for now, especially that you're going afk now, I shall take my leave to bed (goddamn quarter past midnight and I have to wake up at six) x.x"

I'm ok with a Quotes lynch, he went like panicking after rEdo's vote and kook was scummy already, if he's scum, gg; if he's town, I'm leaning for Irre or rEdo.

Also, I'm willing to hammer Quotes.

@Irre: can you explain further on why you will vote Caligno if Quotes is scum? Why didn't you stick with your actual vote on Caligno and jumped on Quotes' wagon?

Irre's posts are calling my attention lately.

Irreversible wrote:

Unvote

Alright Caligno, your activity increased, and currently there's no sense to leave the vote on you. What bothers me though that you mostly say 'this is wrong, you've thought about that wrong' etc.

How do you vote people based merely on activity and then unvoting when he started posting again?

If Quotes is scum, then he's likely town due Quotes' empty vote on him.

@Quotes: would you share your reads with us?

Dake obvtown
Caligno probtown
Jinxy probtown
Royston lean town
Saki idk
Sakura idk
Irreversible probscum
Redo very probscum

That was quick, why I'm obvious town?

was this just a statement that you're definetly scum quotes? Dake joins the game, you want him to be your friend, this seems odd to me.

@dake, i'll explain it tomorrow because i'm sleepy now, and i'm going to sleep

No he's been my top town read all game. I lost my last post with 15 reasons why I am town hold up