Makar and DJKero. Both of you need to refrain from posting useless things in this thread. DJKero, you need to back up your statement with data on why you think things need to change. Makar, you're not contributing anything to this by effectively flaming DJKero for stating his opinion. Nobody is trying to say that Osu!mania needs to become BMS/O2Jam/anything else. You and every other poster who says anything along the lines of "don't bring o2ja into this" need to stop and pay attention to exactly what people are saying instead of blindly opposing something because the idea sounds like it might have been inspired by a different game. We are forwarding suggestions not because we blindly want osu!mania to become some other game. We're forwarding these suggestions because we believe that they will ultimately improve the osu!mania experience. Were suggesting these things because we care about osu!mania, the mappers, and the players.

It's no wonder these threads keep getting closed. It's not that nobody here knows how to properly argue, but that a choice few people don't. Threads get closed because 2 or 3 people can't help but post childish remarks at each other or cant be bothered to spend enough time on their post to actually explain their opinion.

I think that there were already enough technical reasons why this should be disallowed.
We can not make people change their key setup or buy a new keyboard to make it theoretically possible to FC it.

This rule won't change, unless someone sums me up good reasons to let this discussion alive.

Bubbled for now, probably going to flame it then.

Loctav wrote:

I think that there were already enough technical reasons why this should be disallowed.
We can not make people change their key setup or buy a new keyboard to make it theoretically possible to FC it.

This rule won't change, unless someone sums me up good reasons to let this discussion alive.

Bubbled for now, probably going to flame it then.

In our discussion above, we have shown that some simple tricks is possible to make it possible for a 6-key-at-the-same-time keyboard be able to FC some of these 7key thing. (Or Even SS them) without a keyboard change and/or changing their keyboard setup. It's just some bad experience to these keyboarder, but not "impossible", but I don't think this is topic-relevant.

I'm not so good at osu! standard, but I have seen some super jumps in ranked maps that needs a hand trick to move cursor from the left-buttom to right-top in a 1/2 or even 1/4 beats. That's nightmare to mouses, but for writing boarders, that is just easy-as-pie. How do you treat these maps?

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

I still think this is a viable solution to the issue at hand. We should continue discussion in this direction if we want progress.

As for the replies to my older post:

The hidden notes thing is about playability. Most people have alternative skins set up so that they can see these hidden notes (usually from the old default hitburst) and thus have very little problem playing them. This is a tweak that they have had to do to increase performance, similar to having to purchase a new keyboard to be able to hit all of the keys at once (though without the financial burden).

As for players that won't play those higher levels anyway, you're assuming that those that do will have the finances available to purchase the new tool to enable them to play the game. This is a bad assumption, considering the wide rage of ages of people playing this.

Here's a compromise:

If you have a map where 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the map will be put in the approval category instead. However, a copy of the map must be made in the set in which sections where 7 keys are pressed at the same time are remapped for a maximum of 6 keys, and this map will be ranked. Both maps must adhere to all other rules of the ranking criteria.

those wrote:

Here's a compromise:

If you have a map where 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the map will be put in the approval category instead. However, a copy of the map must be made in the set in which sections where 7 keys are pressed at the same time are remapped for a maximum of 6 keys, and this map will be ranked. Both maps must adhere to all other rules of the ranking criteria.

We are willing to make some other diffs which does not have 7key at the same time, for in most cases 7key at the same time is limited in use and mostly only in insane diffs.

However do we have to make 4 diffs (2 for ranked copy, 2 for approval) ?
I personally think of 1 approval map minimum in this case.
Of course it's pointless to make one more note into a rankable map to force it into approval, right?

It's all about the theoretical possibility to pass every map with given devices and settings.

Hidden notes are theoretically playable, they just are hard to read or need to be memorized.

Having notes and maps that require you to change the settings or have a new tool, even if you are able to read it, makes it theoretically impossible to play with given tools and settings.

Imagine someone can only play with a given keyset of a s d space j k l and has no money to buy a new keyboard to avoid ghosting.
How is he supposed to theoretically play every note?

Approval is no solution, since they go into the ranking, providing advantages to players who can efford changing their setup or devices in order to achieve more pp than people who can't.

In standard, taiko, CtB, all modes here, you can theoretically play every hitnote technically, since the mouse doesn't refuse to move, the arrow keys do not refuse to move the catcher (pixel jumps were also unrankable in CtB, because they are almost uncatchable and were based on pure luck) and the taiko drums do not refuse to accept a key input (but still taiko forbids certain stream patterns because they are almost impossible to be played as intended - referring to big note discussion)

In this case, the keyboard or input device of your choice might simply refuse the input, regardless of what you can (skill wise)
Some keyboards simply disallow more than 7 key input, even if you change the settings (experienced in te past where I was mapping an playing for official o2jam), so it requires you to get a new device.

Please show me why we should exclude financial poor people from
lpaying certain maps, please proof me that this issue is no issue.

Every other attempt to allow it because "it's cool" or "it doesn't affect many" is invalid, since it's just a "this is how I roll" opinion, yet no fact that invalidates the rule and especially the reason it was built up on.

Loctav wrote:

Imagine someone can only play with a given keyset of a s d space j k l and has no money to buy a new keyboard to avoid ghosting.
How is he supposed to theoretically play every note?

IT IS THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE in current judgment system. (But too tricky to do so)
If you are talking about theory availability, I advice that we should leave that off-topic thing and go back to core discussion on 7key maps approval.

Tricking the input because of lenient judgement system is not valid, since maps shall be played in the way they are mapped.

And I already stated why approval is no option.

Loctav wrote:

Tricking the input because of lenient judgement system is not valid, since maps shall be played in the way they are mapped.

And I already stated why approval is no option.

It's not of the "lenient" judgment system. Actually o!m is one of the hardest judgment game that I have ever played.
The "trick" is usable in every other music game like o2jam/BMS or whatever.

We are talking about to make better maps possible to be shown to the public, NOT the playability (And I have repeated like a thousand times that it is possible to play.)

Please, let's go back to negotiate a viable solution to suit 7key maps, not on playability or whatsoever.

You'll be alienating a lot of the potential userbase of osu!mania, severely limiting mappers and maps, and going against the wishes of the majority of current good, active, mania players/mappers. This is illogical in every possible way. Your point about making maps impossible to play in certain hardware is just unconvincing to me. That in itself is no reason to keep this rule. The ends we are looking for is to make this game more fun and successful; this rule accomplishes the exact opposite, in my opinion.

I've had my say. If this rule stays I'll just continue shit talking about it along with everybody else that's shit talking about it. People will continue shit talking about it for a long long time. The best outcome for the future is a grudging acceptance with heads held down, sheepishly ignoring the jeers from people who play other rhythm games that don't have such silly limitations.

I will pray to the mania god for your good of your soul.

I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.

Wait, you want maps to be a show off instead of being a playable joice? That's contradicting, since this is a game. And games should be playable.

I am up to agree to a heavily enforced guideline, like Sakura purposed.
But entirely removing this rule just will end up in so many unplayable stuf because of ghosting...

Just a small input. I hate this rule because maps like this are entirely unrankable and therefore actively discouraged from being made no matter what, and I think those are fun maps to play.

What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?

Sakura wrote:

I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.

Yeah, I agree with you.
My intention of talking about 7key is to allowing this kind of map to be recognized by community as a rare exception, but NEVER to encourage using it.


I personally (and maybe also you?) don't want to see silly maps with 7key anywhere, which means you just smash your keyboard to play it. It's not interesting at all. However, carefully usage of them do increase variety and make the map better.

And some kind of "punishment" (For example, not calculated as ranking diff causing more effort to make diffs) is suitable to them, maybe?

Sakura wrote:

What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?

I listed some situation below, though I believe it can't be a complete list.
1. There ARE 7 instrumental thing on that line, AND it is all used in the former mapping. (Extremely rare cases, mostly only in "finish" period.)
2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)
3. Anti-key maps. You play these songs with most time you hold down ALL the keys with the notes actually representing a release on one or more keys. (I personally can't play this kind of song well in other games, but opinion on this style may be heavily biased.)

xxbidiao wrote:

2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)

This is the best argument I've seen thus far. Chord transitions pretty much double the notes for a single tick due to keys being released and new ones being pressed, and it's not uncommon to have 5+ things happening at once.

Guess things like #2 would be fine at modders' discretion if this is turned into a guideline.

As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.

MillhioreF wrote:

As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.

Anyway 7key is a tough task for these keyboards, so our intention is to separate them out as a warning, but not to forbid them. So I don't think it is necessary to decide to such an extent that certain layout is forbidden.

Because I'm a DJMAX/PSP player, I mostly don't play this crazy style which needs 7key hold down at the same time. It is mostly introduced in VOS/CAN/O2Jam playing style.

Because I don't think such logic like "I can't play this note layout well, so I hate this layout, this layout should be eliminated on the earth" is viable, I would like to emphasize this problem out to let more people discuss it.
Some reason that I have thought of or told by other players/mappers:
"This is just like flute playing, where you hold all the holes in the beginning and release some of them to let air out of these holes to make them sound. Why should a real-world playing style being banned?"
"Come on we have 4key antikey 5key antikey 6key antikey BUT WHY NOT IN 7key?!"



BTW,The first and the second reason to use 7key in my post is nearly the same thing when you substitute a slider with 2 notes which one on the beginning and the other one the end.

Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.

mania is like a keyboard. holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound. it makes no logical sense in my head (and i guess being brought up on bemani/djmax only reinforces that).

It's not just a keyboard-to us- it's samples, like a kick, or a snare, or a sound, or a drum roll. Any of these could be combined into 7 lanes like a chord of 4 notes and 3 drum instruments.

Just an example.

peppy wrote:

holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound.

Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s

And bemani games don't use pressing all at once (except on rare occasions) mostly because they don't have holds cluttering on the screen, and the button layouts from these games aren't adequate for it either, though it's fine on a computer keyboard.

Draconi wrote:

Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s

The diminished seventh chord sounds great.

woc2006 wrote:

Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.

I agree with you in most part, but I found a problem to actually put this solution into practice.
HOW do we know that a map is at the same level?
For example ,we have "Astro Fight", the boss song in DJMAX Online.
The Boss Difficulty is LV19 [SC], without 7key;
The less difficulty is LV17 {MX], with a few 7key, but far easier than the earlier mentioned one.
And the SC is "to give the same fun, as an addition to MX".
You just can't decide a map's diff by whether it has a 7key situation, right?
So even some expert mapers on these online games can't get difficulty controlled, how do we? A great amount of extra work would be needed just to qualify them, making it too hard to be implemented.

Besides, to let the mapper map 2 completely different highest diff is really hard, and the parts without 7key is also affected by this solution.

My solution is a little different from you:
7keys is allowed only if you make another diff as an addition to the 7key diff.
You are encouraged to make a diff of the same level, but it is OK if you have enough reason that however you make another diff the map still looks like the same (or only like playing with "random" mod) with original 7key diff. In this case you still need to map a diff but you are not limited by the same level.
Example:
7K easy/normal + (insane[without 7key] + lunatic[with 7key])

Which means a map with 7key must have at least 4 diffs.

Besides, I'm willing to provide some criteria to help modify MX-style 7keys maps to SC-style maps which don't have a 7key problem which can provide another kind of fun. (I slightly modified the language here: Don't confuse this with fun of 7key, you'll surely lost a great amount of fun.)

Let's bring it on again.

Take a look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81109
DJPOP uses several "7 press" in 7K Sc, which I think perfectly fits the song since it's a fully-keysounded map. If he takes out some notes according to the ranking criteria, the song just becomes incomplete.

What do you think of this?

i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.

Agka wrote:

i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.

For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.

Anyway, this post is back to life

I've already fixed them, the 7-keys rule still applied and I believe it's not going to be changed.

xxbidiao wrote:

For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.

Every notes are keysounded

OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!

I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.

Zeradok wrote:

I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.

Or buy an USB keyboard that's able to press 7 keys at thesame time.. like me.

Logitech classic keyboard 200
Y-UR83

it's like €10 or something, works perfectly.

DJKero wrote:

OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!

If you can't make cool maps without resorting to such gimmicks, then you can't make cool maps.

Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.

Ephemeral wrote:

Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.

I do think you have already forget this discussion because this looks "not so important."

Anyway I think that with peppy's standing currently (To make map playable to everyone and to keep Approved category unchanged), we can not make any step further ;w;

With a keyboard that's able to press 6 keys at the same time, you could use shift and so use 7 keys at the same time... So I think this rule could be changed.

Amendment has been denied. Hardware limitations effectively prevent more than 7 keys being pressed at the same time on most keyboards, and to allow a rule circumventing this restriction would create a class of beatmaps inaccessible to players with ordinary, non-specialised hardware.