Ephemeral wrote:

this means that players with poorer hardware attempting to play otherwise standard osu!mania maps at higher difficulties run the risk of hitting a wall not because of their skill level, but because of the hardware that they are forced to work with.

This assumes that either all, or a large portion of high level maps would make use of 7 keys at once, which I highly doubt. Even in some of the extremely difficult o2jam charts, as an example, there are relatively few which actually use all 7 keys at once. There's quite a large selection which don't use that, even if they technically could have. Even with the 6 key limit removed there would be relatively few cases where you can legitimately justify using all 7 keys, and that can be controlled by modding, as opposed to a blanket rule.

Ephemeral wrote:

99% of all policy changes are a compromise between allowing mapper freedom and working within the limits of the game for what is acceptable when catering to an extremely large people with a varied set of hardware. i do not develop osu!mania at all, but i can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that this limitation will likely not be changed, as to do so would be to omit a compromise and instead favor a particular sect of the playerbase.

sorry, but that's the way these things are.

The maps that would benefit from the removal of this rule are not playable by the majority of players to begin with due to difficulty. the majority of players do not play high level Insanes, which is primarily the set of maps that would benefit from the removal of this limitation. While you could argue that regardless of the sample size, there are still people whose keyboards are incapable of more than 6 keys at once, I would like to point out that most people who are willing to put the time and effort into getting good enough to play these would likely be wiling to put the extra effort into finding a key setup that worked or a keyboard that is capable of 7 keys at once.

Again: this change would not affect the vast majority of maps or players. It would only affect the maps where patterns which make use of 7 keys at once are acceptable, which is only a small subset of maps in the first place.

While the pro mania players may only be a small subset of players, they are no less important the the majority.

the knock-on effect of allowing such a technique would increase its prevalence in map usage for a nominal time afterwards - i've seen this happen countless times in controversial standard mode mapping techniques and i am certain it would happen in osu!mania as well.

you said it best - we're not about to open a can of worms and introduce potentially exclusive techniques into accepted mapping standards when the only people that can benefit from them are the top 0.1% of players.

if negotiated properly, an approval mapset may suffice to cover application of this "rule" in conventional mapsets where it is appropriate for the track and not overused.

Ephemeral wrote:

the knock-on effect of allowing such a technique would increase its prevalence in map usage for a nominal time afterwards - i've seen this happen countless times in controversial standard mode mapping techniques and i am certain it would happen in osu!mania as well.

The knock on effect should be combated by proper modding and proper review by the BATs on what gets ranked in the first place and should not be considered in whether or not the rule should be invalidated.

Ephemeral wrote:

you said it best - we're not about to open a can of worms and introduce potentially exclusive techniques into accepted mapping standards when the only people that can benefit from them are the top 0.1% of players.

Osu cultivates a system where players are effectively pitted against each other the moment they play a ranked map, via the ranking system. Within a competitive environment, raising the skill ceiling is only a good thing, as the higher the skill ceiling, the more effectively you can rank top players against each other. Saying that within a system, something that "only effects the top 0.1% of players" is a bad thing is ridiculous. The top players are as important as any other subgroup of players, and deserves to have the chance to play maps which test their skill, however good they are at the game.

The other reason I think that your reasoning here is flawed is that if people DO make maps which use all 7 keys, even if they are targeted at the pros, and popular with the pros, they are excluded from factoring into a player's ranking. This has a knock-on effect of disincentivizing playing those maps in the first place, because people care too much about their rank to play stuff that won't have any impact on it.

Ephemeral wrote:

if negotiated properly, an approval mapset may suffice to cover application of this "rule" in conventional mapsets where it is appropriate for the track and not overused.

I'd like to see Approval used more widely, but it seems like the general trend has been to try to remove Approved as an option in the first place (hence the "approved is only for marathons" rule), which I also happen to disagree with (but that's a whole other can of worms).

If you're going to say that Approval is an option, make it very clear with a rule stating that it's possible, because as it stands, "Approved Category is only for Marathon maps." which clearly states that the only reason something may be Approved is if it exceeds 6 minutes, and thus counts as a marathon.

I was going to write more about approval, but instead, I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality. This is only tangentially related to the issue at hand, but if we are going to keep the 6 key limit, and Approval the way it is, there should be some better way to separate complete, quality maps which don't meet the ranking guidelines but don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the garbage that is the graveyard.

I'm not saying that we should somehow incentivize that sort of mapping behavior, because I agree that the majority of maps should be targeted towards as wide an audience as possible. However, the current system effectively penalizes people for not making a rankable map in the first place, which in turn penalizes people for experimenting or creating unique maps that break some rules, but are worth being noted. If you're some random nobody that doesn't actually know anyone, it's effectively impossible to get an audience for anything you do, even if it's worth being seen.

For a game that is community driven, there are an awful lot of rules or systems in place which hurt the community here.

Also, my pattern creativity to map for osu!mania is barred due to this rule that majority of osu!mania community hates it.

When I say tweaks, I mean that you have to change settings or options just to be able to play the game. Eph already said my general stance, but keeo in mind that this sort of technique is limiting to all players until thet go out of their way to purchase additional hardware, which is something that shouldnt be needed in a free online game.

That said, setting the mapset to approval is a viable option. The problen with the old approval rules was that there was too muchsubjectivity in the requirement, but if ee have sonethung solid as the 7/8 keys at once, its something that yoy cant argue your way pyt of, at least. As for normal ranking, I would still be against it.

Garven wrote:

When I say tweaks, I mean that you have to change settings or options just to be able to play the game. Eph already said my general stance, but keeo in mind that this sort of technique is limiting to all players until thet go out of their way to purchase additional hardware, which is something that shouldnt be needed in a free online game.

That said, setting the mapset to approval is a viable option. The problen with the old approval rules was that there was too muchsubjectivity in the requirement, but if ee have sonethung solid as the 7/8 keys at once, its something that yoy cant argue your way pyt of, at least. As for normal ranking, I would still be against it.

Yeah approval is somewhere we come to the same point. Though woc had said that in early development period, I don't know when we will release the approved category limit to a wider range of maps.

Bobbias wrote:

The knock on effect should be combated by proper modding and proper review by the BATs on what gets ranked in the first place and should not be considered in whether or not the rule should be invalidated.

You are witnessing "proper review" at the moment.

Bobbias wrote:

Osu cultivates a system where players are effectively pitted against each other the moment they play a ranked map, via the ranking system. Within a competitive environment, raising the skill ceiling is only a good thing, as the higher the skill ceiling, the more effectively you can rank top players against each other. Saying that within a system, something that "only effects the top 0.1% of players" is a bad thing is ridiculous. The top players are as important as any other subgroup of players, and deserves to have the chance to play maps which test their skill, however good they are at the game.

The other reason I think that your reasoning here is flawed is that if people DO make maps which use all 7 keys, even if they are targeted at the pros, and popular with the pros, they are excluded from factoring into a player's ranking. This has a knock-on effect of disincentivizing playing those maps in the first place, because people care too much about their rank to play stuff that won't have any impact on it.

Restricting a technique which requires non-standard hardware to be able to possibly finish is not destroying the competitive nature of the osu!mania scene - I would argue that it exists solely to keep things competitive and fair for everyone to play. You make a blanket number of assumptions here about what players will play ("they do it foe the ranking, it's disincentivized because it's not ranked") when in actuality, people will play and compete on a map if they enjoy it over any other criteria it may have. That is why Approval is something that will likely be applied to this rule IF and only IF it is ever used in a scenario where it is considered justifiable. That has happened for osu! standard mapping practices in the past, though before the paradigm for approval changed completely. It can likely be established in a similar regard for o!m again if required.

Bobbias wrote:

I was going to write more about approval, but instead, I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality. This is only tangentially related to the issue at hand, but if we are going to keep the 6 key limit, and Approval the way it is, there should be some better way to separate complete, quality maps which don't meet the ranking guidelines but don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the garbage that is the graveyard.

I'm not saying that we should somehow incentivize that sort of mapping behavior, because I agree that the majority of maps should be targeted towards as wide an audience as possible. However, the current system effectively penalizes people for not making a rankable map in the first place, which in turn penalizes people for experimenting or creating unique maps that break some rules, but are worth being noted. If you're some random nobody that doesn't actually know anyone, it's effectively impossible to get an audience for anything you do, even if it's worth being seen.

When you say things like this, I begin to think that you have had 0 experience with actually mapping and pushing a map with fringe techniques through the process and getting feedback to refine it further. After checking your profile, this seems to be the place, and I would highly encourage you to get involved in modding to see how the system works before making grandiose statements about its effectiveness.

Experimental techniques are often consolidated and refined extensively throughout the modding process - a number of otherwise controversial techniques have entered into standard mapping repertoire that way, and I suspect osu!mania's mapping scene will be absolutely no different

Bobbias wrote:

For a game that is community driven, there are an awful lot of rules or systems in place which hurt the community here.

I invite you to detail these rules and systems and where you see problems with them. Preferably in another thread, or in private messages.

In regards to the non-standard hardware issue, be aware that only 50% of users polled are able to press 7 or more keys simultaneously. I'm surprised the results of this poll weren't mentioned earlier, though 112 users isn't the best sample. Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that this is alienating half of the userbase as I'm sure many of them would prefer to play with less keys or don't even care for osu!mania, but it does put it into perspective.

Jarby: Not to mention that many laptops don't have P/S 2 ports, so that's not exactly easy to fix without using non-default layouts, even if they did go out and buy a new USB keyboard.

Jarby wrote:

In regards to the non-standard hardware issue, be aware that only 50% of users polled are able to press 7 or more keys simultaneously. I'm surprised the results of this poll weren't mentioned earlier, though 112 users isn't the best sample. Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that this is alienating half of the userbase as I'm sure many of them would prefer to play with less keys or don't even care for osu!mania, but it does put it into perspective.

I've read that post.
Actually I'm surprised that half of the osu! community members can press 7 or more key at the same time when playing only a 2-key pressing game. (For my experience, if you pick a random keyboard, you are likely to only have 20% possibility to make it 7key-able.)
The percentage is mainly based on who answered the question. besides the low sample amount you have mentioned in your post, the target of the poll itself has a great flaw: It is asked to everyone including players playing osu!mania and those doesn't play osu!mania.

Back to my first years of mania playing experience, I always ask the keyboard seller the question "Does your keyboard support 7key?"
A great deal of USB keyboard does not support 7key, BUT THERE ARE SOME THAT DO SUPPORTS WITHOUT TWEAKING ANYTHING. (which may be also relatively low in price, e.g. DT-35fps).
And 7key ability is not a making-price-higher option, it's only the keyboard producer's choice.
In osu! community, since there are no requirements before, it's easy to figure out that people will buy a better keyboard with better performance on all other aspects such as key pressing feelings, extra control keys and lightweight (Maybe relatively dear) without considering its 7key ability.
That's why the post gets only half satisfactory on 7key ability.
If you ask the same question to mania community like "If you have pretty much mania experience and how many keys at the same time can you press", since 7key or even 8key ability is a must to gameplay in other similar games, I believe that would be 90% or even higher.

Anyway we may need further survey on that.

Bobbias wrote:

I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality.

Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.

xxbidiao wrote:

The percentage is mainly based on who answered the question. besides the low sample amount you have mentioned in your post, the target of the poll itself has a great flaw: It is asked to everyone including players playing osu!mania and those doesn't play osu!mania.

This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.

xxbidiao wrote:

Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.

Great quality maps as always, are largely subjective. If they cannot be ranked due to technical issues with their construction, then that is an area for improvement in the taiko ranking criteria which to my knowledge has always been poorly formulated and substantiated by the taiko modding community. Difficulty does also not infer quality and mapsets should always be catered to a large set of players - not just one or two exclusive groups. This is the primary issue that the taiko community has - there are perhaps maybe 3-4 people who are willing to map equivalent normals and hards while everyone else is content to map crazy onis that only 0.1% of the playerbase can regularly score in.

This is an issue for another thread, though.

Ephemeral wrote:

This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.

So whatsoever 50% or 90% or further survey needed, there are a not-so-small group of players who can play 7keys.
That made me thought back of DJMAX Online, which looking onto the problem of "a few player can't press 7key" issue, put a pretty good solution to it:
In the highest difficulty, maps are divided into 2 categories:
"Maximum", which allows 7key at the same time, which is mostly for keyboard players at that time.
"SuperCrazy", which only allows 2+2[SP keys] whichi is a maximum of 4, to be pressed at the same time.
And they developed into different playing styles and all developed well.

What will happen if we imagine "SuperCrazy" as ranked and "Maximum" as approved? (For DJMAX is mostly originally from arcade play, where in most cases no 7key presses, SC diff is the orthodox as ranked in our community.)

That sounds like an amiable solution for the issue, actually.

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

+1

Sp3ct3r wrote:

tbh, i personally think that people who's complaining about the fact that they can't press 7 keys at the same time are too lazy to map the keys and find the right layout to avoid it. this really limits creativity for some maps imo.

in fact I said, avoid it in easier difficulties. ( And peoples, like me, usually like a "piano"-like layout )
Easier difficulties shouldn't require to find a layout to permit it. And I've never seen 7-keys being used that easily

I can support xxbidiao solution.

If you can't press all the keys out once, you can actually have a tweek in the settings. My current keyboard can't press seven keys at the same time WHEN my keys are S,D,F,[Space],J,K,L. So what I did was, I change J,K,L to U,I,O and it totally works for me now. It just needs a little adjustment on the hand position and you'll get used to it.

I'm totally supporting the removal of this rule btw.

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

Approval is for marathon maps.

I find it funny that this rule exists to begin with. Any rule which has as a consequence mapping itself being limited is bad.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.

Anyways, how many high end players are there? Because I get the feeling having to press 7 keys at the same time is not something that happens on not-difficulty-insane maps. Following that logic, and assuming most good players come from other rhythm games where you had to press 7k (meaning they have a keyboard which enables them) I don't get why this could trouble "a lot of people". Most players not being able to press 7k at the same time don't really play osu!mania to begin with (meaning they are not serious, casuals, playing low difficulties), and if they do I really doubt they are on a level high enough to play maps which would include such a pattern.

I'd like add my voice to those expressing dissent over this rule. I didn't understand why it was there from the beginning. You see, this immediately invalidates like 50% of the top level official "maps" in the rhythm game I came from (it's o2jam). Not allowing 7 keys at the same time is simply unthinkable as somebody so used to seeing it. The comparison to fast osu streams is a good one just to understand the gut reaction against it.

Most of the time 7 keys being pressed at the same time involves complicated long notes, a staple of higher level o2jam mapping. An example from a popular official o2jam map: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFSCkGWpi_w#t=1m22s. I was amazed the first time I saw this sort of thing, and the creativity behind love long notes still awes me. It's not mashing; it is the opposite. Long notes are hard not because of the physical difficulty of holding them, but the cerebral effort involved in seeing when to hold and release. It is an exercise in reading.

I just think it's a mistake to deprive osu!mania of this style of mapping so beloved by so many. You can tell they are loved because the high difficulty fan-made or unofficial maps all include them all of the time and pros play these maps all the time. osu!mania can be better. It can appeal to a wider userbase by allowing 7 simultaneous keys.

A completely understandable compromise is to allow 7 keys in Insane maps only, or to make 7 key maps approved. If you have invested enough time to do well in Insane maps, you should be able to go through the trouble of getting a new keyboard. Just for the sake of long notes and for your souls, don't take it away. You have no idea how important it is to many of us.

woc2006 wrote:

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

Approval is for marathon maps.

We already have some exceptions in other modes.
Besides, let's look at the rule itself:
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.

Actually, the rule itself explained why it is there - to limit the "one-diff-mapset". And as in my suggestion, these maps are not going to benefit from this "primary" approval goods (thus need 2 diffs except it is already marathon). It is only for a mark, not something really meaningful. (Or we can expand another category for mania?)

And I have heard louder suggestions from the community to just abandon the 7key rule. Why don't we push this topic forward faster?

I also support the idea of creating some sort of extra way to categorize maps which allow all 7 keys. We don't have the same problem the taiko community has with most taiko mappers. Our mappers have shown that they are willing to focus on proper difficulty spreads. This is something that everyone agreed on right off the bat because we have been quite aware that we need to draw more players into the game.

I think something to take out of this discussion beyond whether or not 7 keys at once should be acceptable is whether or not the approval rule should be reconsidered. Many solutions which call for a separate category of maps would be served by using Approved. Maybe it's time to re-examine that rule.

Wishy wrote:

I find it funny that this rule exists to begin with. Any rule which has as a consequence mapping itself being limited is bad.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.

Anyways, how many high end players are there? Because I get the feeling having to press 7 keys at the same time is not something that happens on not-difficulty-insane maps. Following that logic, and assuming most good players come from other rhythm games where you had to press 7k (meaning they have a keyboard which enables them) I don't get why this could trouble "a lot of people". Most players not being able to press 7k at the same time don't really play osu!mania to begin with (meaning they are not serious, casuals, playing low difficulties), and if they do I really doubt they are on a level high enough to play maps which would include such a pattern.

Emphasis mine.

I understand what Graven is saying here, but I want to rebut his point here. While there are a number of undesirable mapping features, they all have different impacts (hidden notes vs slider layered over notes, for example). Hidden notes may be difficult, but they ARE used, and many people have no problem with allowing them despite the rules, as pointed out by Wishy. While I agree that there are plenty of cases where hidden notes (or 7k presses or any other mapping technique which is difficult to deal with) are undesirable, there are times when they can be acceptable or even preferred over other patterns. This means that instead of forbidding something outright, they should be effectively "regulated".

iantanye made a very good point with his video. That map is popular, and more importantly, official. This is something that the creators of the game directly allowed into an official chart. That is an important distinction, because official maps still followed internal rules and quality checks (considering they are still among the highest quality charts for the game).

xxbidiao wrote:

Or we can expand another category for mania?

I don't see why not, aside from whether peppy wants to implement it.

Just one thing, this rule sucks, needs to be deleted... or whatever you can do to allow real 7K maps.

DJKero wrote:

Just one thing, this rule sucks, needs to be deleted... or whatever you can do to allow real 7K maps.

real 7K maps != BMS/O2Jam/whatever maps

This is osu!mania, not some other game. Please read the discussion and the constructive criticism already given, and give proper feedback based on that rather than some other game.

Makar and DJKero. Both of you need to refrain from posting useless things in this thread. DJKero, you need to back up your statement with data on why you think things need to change. Makar, you're not contributing anything to this by effectively flaming DJKero for stating his opinion. Nobody is trying to say that Osu!mania needs to become BMS/O2Jam/anything else. You and every other poster who says anything along the lines of "don't bring o2ja into this" need to stop and pay attention to exactly what people are saying instead of blindly opposing something because the idea sounds like it might have been inspired by a different game. We are forwarding suggestions not because we blindly want osu!mania to become some other game. We're forwarding these suggestions because we believe that they will ultimately improve the osu!mania experience. Were suggesting these things because we care about osu!mania, the mappers, and the players.

It's no wonder these threads keep getting closed. It's not that nobody here knows how to properly argue, but that a choice few people don't. Threads get closed because 2 or 3 people can't help but post childish remarks at each other or cant be bothered to spend enough time on their post to actually explain their opinion.

I think that there were already enough technical reasons why this should be disallowed.
We can not make people change their key setup or buy a new keyboard to make it theoretically possible to FC it.

This rule won't change, unless someone sums me up good reasons to let this discussion alive.

Bubbled for now, probably going to flame it then.

Loctav wrote:

I think that there were already enough technical reasons why this should be disallowed.
We can not make people change their key setup or buy a new keyboard to make it theoretically possible to FC it.

This rule won't change, unless someone sums me up good reasons to let this discussion alive.

Bubbled for now, probably going to flame it then.

In our discussion above, we have shown that some simple tricks is possible to make it possible for a 6-key-at-the-same-time keyboard be able to FC some of these 7key thing. (Or Even SS them) without a keyboard change and/or changing their keyboard setup. It's just some bad experience to these keyboarder, but not "impossible", but I don't think this is topic-relevant.

I'm not so good at osu! standard, but I have seen some super jumps in ranked maps that needs a hand trick to move cursor from the left-buttom to right-top in a 1/2 or even 1/4 beats. That's nightmare to mouses, but for writing boarders, that is just easy-as-pie. How do you treat these maps?

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

I still think this is a viable solution to the issue at hand. We should continue discussion in this direction if we want progress.

As for the replies to my older post:

The hidden notes thing is about playability. Most people have alternative skins set up so that they can see these hidden notes (usually from the old default hitburst) and thus have very little problem playing them. This is a tweak that they have had to do to increase performance, similar to having to purchase a new keyboard to be able to hit all of the keys at once (though without the financial burden).

As for players that won't play those higher levels anyway, you're assuming that those that do will have the finances available to purchase the new tool to enable them to play the game. This is a bad assumption, considering the wide rage of ages of people playing this.

Here's a compromise:

If you have a map where 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the map will be put in the approval category instead. However, a copy of the map must be made in the set in which sections where 7 keys are pressed at the same time are remapped for a maximum of 6 keys, and this map will be ranked. Both maps must adhere to all other rules of the ranking criteria.

those wrote:

Here's a compromise:

If you have a map where 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the map will be put in the approval category instead. However, a copy of the map must be made in the set in which sections where 7 keys are pressed at the same time are remapped for a maximum of 6 keys, and this map will be ranked. Both maps must adhere to all other rules of the ranking criteria.

We are willing to make some other diffs which does not have 7key at the same time, for in most cases 7key at the same time is limited in use and mostly only in insane diffs.

However do we have to make 4 diffs (2 for ranked copy, 2 for approval) ?
I personally think of 1 approval map minimum in this case.
Of course it's pointless to make one more note into a rankable map to force it into approval, right?

It's all about the theoretical possibility to pass every map with given devices and settings.

Hidden notes are theoretically playable, they just are hard to read or need to be memorized.

Having notes and maps that require you to change the settings or have a new tool, even if you are able to read it, makes it theoretically impossible to play with given tools and settings.

Imagine someone can only play with a given keyset of a s d space j k l and has no money to buy a new keyboard to avoid ghosting.
How is he supposed to theoretically play every note?

Approval is no solution, since they go into the ranking, providing advantages to players who can efford changing their setup or devices in order to achieve more pp than people who can't.

In standard, taiko, CtB, all modes here, you can theoretically play every hitnote technically, since the mouse doesn't refuse to move, the arrow keys do not refuse to move the catcher (pixel jumps were also unrankable in CtB, because they are almost uncatchable and were based on pure luck) and the taiko drums do not refuse to accept a key input (but still taiko forbids certain stream patterns because they are almost impossible to be played as intended - referring to big note discussion)

In this case, the keyboard or input device of your choice might simply refuse the input, regardless of what you can (skill wise)
Some keyboards simply disallow more than 7 key input, even if you change the settings (experienced in te past where I was mapping an playing for official o2jam), so it requires you to get a new device.

Please show me why we should exclude financial poor people from
lpaying certain maps, please proof me that this issue is no issue.

Every other attempt to allow it because "it's cool" or "it doesn't affect many" is invalid, since it's just a "this is how I roll" opinion, yet no fact that invalidates the rule and especially the reason it was built up on.

Loctav wrote:

Imagine someone can only play with a given keyset of a s d space j k l and has no money to buy a new keyboard to avoid ghosting.
How is he supposed to theoretically play every note?

IT IS THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE in current judgment system. (But too tricky to do so)
If you are talking about theory availability, I advice that we should leave that off-topic thing and go back to core discussion on 7key maps approval.

Tricking the input because of lenient judgement system is not valid, since maps shall be played in the way they are mapped.

And I already stated why approval is no option.

Loctav wrote:

Tricking the input because of lenient judgement system is not valid, since maps shall be played in the way they are mapped.

And I already stated why approval is no option.

It's not of the "lenient" judgment system. Actually o!m is one of the hardest judgment game that I have ever played.
The "trick" is usable in every other music game like o2jam/BMS or whatever.

We are talking about to make better maps possible to be shown to the public, NOT the playability (And I have repeated like a thousand times that it is possible to play.)

Please, let's go back to negotiate a viable solution to suit 7key maps, not on playability or whatsoever.

You'll be alienating a lot of the potential userbase of osu!mania, severely limiting mappers and maps, and going against the wishes of the majority of current good, active, mania players/mappers. This is illogical in every possible way. Your point about making maps impossible to play in certain hardware is just unconvincing to me. That in itself is no reason to keep this rule. The ends we are looking for is to make this game more fun and successful; this rule accomplishes the exact opposite, in my opinion.

I've had my say. If this rule stays I'll just continue shit talking about it along with everybody else that's shit talking about it. People will continue shit talking about it for a long long time. The best outcome for the future is a grudging acceptance with heads held down, sheepishly ignoring the jeers from people who play other rhythm games that don't have such silly limitations.

I will pray to the mania god for your good of your soul.

I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.

Wait, you want maps to be a show off instead of being a playable joice? That's contradicting, since this is a game. And games should be playable.

I am up to agree to a heavily enforced guideline, like Sakura purposed.
But entirely removing this rule just will end up in so many unplayable stuf because of ghosting...

Just a small input. I hate this rule because maps like this are entirely unrankable and therefore actively discouraged from being made no matter what, and I think those are fun maps to play.

What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?

Sakura wrote:

I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.

Yeah, I agree with you.
My intention of talking about 7key is to allowing this kind of map to be recognized by community as a rare exception, but NEVER to encourage using it.


I personally (and maybe also you?) don't want to see silly maps with 7key anywhere, which means you just smash your keyboard to play it. It's not interesting at all. However, carefully usage of them do increase variety and make the map better.

And some kind of "punishment" (For example, not calculated as ranking diff causing more effort to make diffs) is suitable to them, maybe?

Sakura wrote:

What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?

I listed some situation below, though I believe it can't be a complete list.
1. There ARE 7 instrumental thing on that line, AND it is all used in the former mapping. (Extremely rare cases, mostly only in "finish" period.)
2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)
3. Anti-key maps. You play these songs with most time you hold down ALL the keys with the notes actually representing a release on one or more keys. (I personally can't play this kind of song well in other games, but opinion on this style may be heavily biased.)

xxbidiao wrote:

2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)

This is the best argument I've seen thus far. Chord transitions pretty much double the notes for a single tick due to keys being released and new ones being pressed, and it's not uncommon to have 5+ things happening at once.

Guess things like #2 would be fine at modders' discretion if this is turned into a guideline.

As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.

MillhioreF wrote:

As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.

Anyway 7key is a tough task for these keyboards, so our intention is to separate them out as a warning, but not to forbid them. So I don't think it is necessary to decide to such an extent that certain layout is forbidden.

Because I'm a DJMAX/PSP player, I mostly don't play this crazy style which needs 7key hold down at the same time. It is mostly introduced in VOS/CAN/O2Jam playing style.

Because I don't think such logic like "I can't play this note layout well, so I hate this layout, this layout should be eliminated on the earth" is viable, I would like to emphasize this problem out to let more people discuss it.
Some reason that I have thought of or told by other players/mappers:
"This is just like flute playing, where you hold all the holes in the beginning and release some of them to let air out of these holes to make them sound. Why should a real-world playing style being banned?"
"Come on we have 4key antikey 5key antikey 6key antikey BUT WHY NOT IN 7key?!"



BTW,The first and the second reason to use 7key in my post is nearly the same thing when you substitute a slider with 2 notes which one on the beginning and the other one the end.

Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.

mania is like a keyboard. holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound. it makes no logical sense in my head (and i guess being brought up on bemani/djmax only reinforces that).

It's not just a keyboard-to us- it's samples, like a kick, or a snare, or a sound, or a drum roll. Any of these could be combined into 7 lanes like a chord of 4 notes and 3 drum instruments.

Just an example.

peppy wrote:

holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound.

Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s

And bemani games don't use pressing all at once (except on rare occasions) mostly because they don't have holds cluttering on the screen, and the button layouts from these games aren't adequate for it either, though it's fine on a computer keyboard.

Draconi wrote:

Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s

The diminished seventh chord sounds great.

woc2006 wrote:

Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.

I agree with you in most part, but I found a problem to actually put this solution into practice.
HOW do we know that a map is at the same level?
For example ,we have "Astro Fight", the boss song in DJMAX Online.
The Boss Difficulty is LV19 [SC], without 7key;
The less difficulty is LV17 {MX], with a few 7key, but far easier than the earlier mentioned one.
And the SC is "to give the same fun, as an addition to MX".
You just can't decide a map's diff by whether it has a 7key situation, right?
So even some expert mapers on these online games can't get difficulty controlled, how do we? A great amount of extra work would be needed just to qualify them, making it too hard to be implemented.

Besides, to let the mapper map 2 completely different highest diff is really hard, and the parts without 7key is also affected by this solution.

My solution is a little different from you:
7keys is allowed only if you make another diff as an addition to the 7key diff.
You are encouraged to make a diff of the same level, but it is OK if you have enough reason that however you make another diff the map still looks like the same (or only like playing with "random" mod) with original 7key diff. In this case you still need to map a diff but you are not limited by the same level.
Example:
7K easy/normal + (insane[without 7key] + lunatic[with 7key])

Which means a map with 7key must have at least 4 diffs.

Besides, I'm willing to provide some criteria to help modify MX-style 7keys maps to SC-style maps which don't have a 7key problem which can provide another kind of fun. (I slightly modified the language here: Don't confuse this with fun of 7key, you'll surely lost a great amount of fun.)

Let's bring it on again.

Take a look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81109
DJPOP uses several "7 press" in 7K Sc, which I think perfectly fits the song since it's a fully-keysounded map. If he takes out some notes according to the ranking criteria, the song just becomes incomplete.

What do you think of this?

i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.

Agka wrote:

i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.

For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.

Anyway, this post is back to life

I've already fixed them, the 7-keys rule still applied and I believe it's not going to be changed.

xxbidiao wrote:

For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.

Every notes are keysounded

OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!

I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.

Zeradok wrote:

I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.

Or buy an USB keyboard that's able to press 7 keys at thesame time.. like me.

Logitech classic keyboard 200
Y-UR83

it's like €10 or something, works perfectly.

DJKero wrote:

OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!

If you can't make cool maps without resorting to such gimmicks, then you can't make cool maps.

Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.

Ephemeral wrote:

Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.

I do think you have already forget this discussion because this looks "not so important."

Anyway I think that with peppy's standing currently (To make map playable to everyone and to keep Approved category unchanged), we can not make any step further ;w;

With a keyboard that's able to press 6 keys at the same time, you could use shift and so use 7 keys at the same time... So I think this rule could be changed.

Amendment has been denied. Hardware limitations effectively prevent more than 7 keys being pressed at the same time on most keyboards, and to allow a rule circumventing this restriction would create a class of beatmaps inaccessible to players with ordinary, non-specialised hardware.