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[Osu!Mania] Discussion on the 7key-at-the-same-time rule

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Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Wait, you want maps to be a show off instead of being a playable joice? That's contradicting, since this is a game. And games should be playable.

I am up to agree to a heavily enforced guideline, like Sakura purposed.
But entirely removing this rule just will end up in so many unplayable stuf because of ghosting...
TouchFluffyTail
294 posts
Joined February 2012
TouchFluffyTail
Just a small input. I hate this rule because maps like this are entirely unrankable and therefore actively discouraged from being made no matter what, and I think those are fun maps to play.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
Topic Starter
xxbidiao

Sakura wrote:

I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.
Yeah, I agree with you.
My intention of talking about 7key is to allowing this kind of map to be recognized by community as a rare exception, but NEVER to encourage using it.


I personally (and maybe also you?) don't want to see silly maps with 7key anywhere, which means you just smash your keyboard to play it. It's not interesting at all. However, carefully usage of them do increase variety and make the map better.

And some kind of "punishment" (For example, not calculated as ranking diff causing more effort to make diffs) is suitable to them, maybe?

Sakura wrote:

What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?
I listed some situation below, though I believe it can't be a complete list.
1. There ARE 7 instrumental thing on that line, AND it is all used in the former mapping. (Extremely rare cases, mostly only in "finish" period.)
2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)
3. Anti-key maps. You play these songs with most time you hold down ALL the keys with the notes actually representing a release on one or more keys. (I personally can't play this kind of song well in other games, but opinion on this style may be heavily biased.)
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

xxbidiao wrote:

2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)
This is the best argument I've seen thus far. Chord transitions pretty much double the notes for a single tick due to keys being released and new ones being pressed, and it's not uncommon to have 5+ things happening at once.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Guess things like #2 would be fine at modders' discretion if this is turned into a guideline.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
Topic Starter
xxbidiao

MillhioreF wrote:

As long as this is heavily moderated and preferably not used more than a couple times a map, I don't see why it can't be allowed. If anything, I'd make the rule "Don't have sliders going in all 7 rows at once." as that's still impossible to hit for a bad keyboard, even with special tactics.
Anyway 7key is a tough task for these keyboards, so our intention is to separate them out as a warning, but not to forbid them. So I don't think it is necessary to decide to such an extent that certain layout is forbidden.

Because I'm a DJMAX/PSP player, I mostly don't play this crazy style which needs 7key hold down at the same time. It is mostly introduced in VOS/CAN/O2Jam playing style.

Because I don't think such logic like "I can't play this note layout well, so I hate this layout, this layout should be eliminated on the earth" is viable, I would like to emphasize this problem out to let more people discuss it.
Some reason that I have thought of or told by other players/mappers:
"This is just like flute playing, where you hold all the holes in the beginning and release some of them to let air out of these holes to make them sound. Why should a real-world playing style being banned?"
"Come on we have 4key antikey 5key antikey 6key antikey BUT WHY NOT IN 7key?!"



BTW,The first and the second reason to use 7key in my post is nearly the same thing when you substitute a slider with 2 notes which one on the beginning and the other one the end.
woc2006
409 posts
Joined September 2011
woc2006
Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
mania is like a keyboard. holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound. it makes no logical sense in my head (and i guess being brought up on bemani/djmax only reinforces that).
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
It's not just a keyboard-to us- it's samples, like a kick, or a snare, or a sound, or a drum roll. Any of these could be combined into 7 lanes like a chord of 4 notes and 3 drum instruments.

Just an example.
Draconi
38 posts
Here since the beginning
Draconi

peppy wrote:

holding all seven keys is like mashing a keyboard, producing a horrible sound.
Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s

And bemani games don't use pressing all at once (except on rare occasions) mostly because they don't have holds cluttering on the screen, and the button layouts from these games aren't adequate for it either, though it's fine on a computer keyboard.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Draconi wrote:

Is it? http://youtu.be/ipzR9bhei_o?t=33s
The diminished seventh chord sounds great.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
Topic Starter
xxbidiao

woc2006 wrote:

Here is my solution:
7keys is allowed only if you make at least two diffs at the same level.
Example:
7K insane(with 7keys)
7K insane(witout 7keys)

and they must be different in patterns to provide different joy for players.
I agree with you in most part, but I found a problem to actually put this solution into practice.
HOW do we know that a map is at the same level?
For example ,we have "Astro Fight", the boss song in DJMAX Online.
The Boss Difficulty is LV19 [SC], without 7key;
The less difficulty is LV17 {MX], with a few 7key, but far easier than the earlier mentioned one.
And the SC is "to give the same fun, as an addition to MX".
You just can't decide a map's diff by whether it has a 7key situation, right?
So even some expert mapers on these online games can't get difficulty controlled, how do we? A great amount of extra work would be needed just to qualify them, making it too hard to be implemented.

Besides, to let the mapper map 2 completely different highest diff is really hard, and the parts without 7key is also affected by this solution.

My solution is a little different from you:
7keys is allowed only if you make another diff as an addition to the 7key diff.
You are encouraged to make a diff of the same level, but it is OK if you have enough reason that however you make another diff the map still looks like the same (or only like playing with "random" mod) with original 7key diff. In this case you still need to map a diff but you are not limited by the same level.
Example:
7K easy/normal + (insane[without 7key] + lunatic[with 7key])

Which means a map with 7key must have at least 4 diffs.

Besides, I'm willing to provide some criteria to help modify MX-style 7keys maps to SC-style maps which don't have a 7key problem which can provide another kind of fun. :) (I slightly modified the language here: Don't confuse this with fun of 7key, you'll surely lost a great amount of fun.)
chonicle
201 posts
Joined August 2009
chonicle
Let's bring it on again.

Take a look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/81109
DJPOP uses several "7 press" in 7K Sc, which I think perfectly fits the song since it's a fully-keysounded map. If he takes out some notes according to the ranking criteria, the song just becomes incomplete.

What do you think of this?
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
Topic Starter
xxbidiao

Agka wrote:

i can do this one.

move the 7th press to an autoplay lane. nothing is lost.
For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.

Anyway, this post is back to life :)
DJPop
osu! Alumni
3,549 posts
Here since the beginning
DJPop
I've already fixed them, the 7-keys rule still applied and I believe it's not going to be changed. :|

xxbidiao wrote:

For a key-sounded map you can always break a 7-key by moving one to background, but it may cause inconsistency. (Where's my drum/bass/etc?) Although I didn't look at the map in order to check whether the 7th press is key-sounded.
Every notes are keysounded ;)
DJKero
231 posts
Here since the beginning
DJKero
OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!
Zeradok
17 posts
Joined October 2010
Zeradok
I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.
Ultimate
382 posts
Joined December 2008
Ultimate

Zeradok wrote:

I'm waiting for this to be made into real.
I mean, what happened to those long note style mapping? What happened to those 7 keys mash style mapping? No, they were made not to make annoying mash sound. They were made to make the map more fun.
And by the way, I am a USB keyboard player, and I changed my keyboard setting into left shift z x space j k l just to be able to press all 7 keys at once. It's not like USB keyboards can't press all 7 keys at once, we can use Shift button to alternate the 7th key. I'm not asking USB keyboard players to change their play style, though. It's up to the USB keyboard players to experience the fun of long note pattern or no.
The most important thing, I just don't want this thread to be forgotten.
Or buy an USB keyboard that's able to press 7 keys at thesame time.. like me.

Logitech classic keyboard 200
Y-UR83

it's like €10 or something, works perfectly.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

DJKero wrote:

OMG this still being discussed? get that rule off please... let us do cool maps, don't limit us!
If you can't make cool maps without resorting to such gimmicks, then you can't make cool maps.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
Topic Starter
xxbidiao

Ephemeral wrote:

Giving this five days of remaining discussion before it is finalized/denied - the rule is likely to remain unchanged at this point due to previous limitations already stated in this thread.
I do think you have already forget this discussion because this looks "not so important." :o

Anyway I think that with peppy's standing currently (To make map playable to everyone and to keep Approved category unchanged), we can not make any step further ;w;
Roxas
osu! Alumni
1,354 posts
Joined August 2011
Roxas
With a keyboard that's able to press 6 keys at the same time, you could use shift and so use 7 keys at the same time... So I think this rule could be changed.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
Amendment has been denied. Hardware limitations effectively prevent more than 7 keys being pressed at the same time on most keyboards, and to allow a rule circumventing this restriction would create a class of beatmaps inaccessible to players with ordinary, non-specialised hardware.
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