We currently have this rule in our ranking criteria in osu!mania:

You are not allowed to put more than 6 notes simultaneously.
Considering most keyboards use USB connections which do not allow 7 simultaneous presses, we make this rule to help more people enjoy the game.

I'm against this rule.
This rule is limiting o!m mapping strictly and it can never achieve its effect despite of how we tighten this rule. We don't and can't satisfy all keyboards for best availibility. It's no good and have side effect, so we should abandon this rule.

This rule restricts o!m maps strictly.
You may not see the effect on 7key maps very seriously(But there are still a few examples). But when 8key come in place and SP+6K is not allowed, these mappers would just go crazy. (Actually many mappers have already complained about this rules in public spaces.)

AND
This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.
Playing this converted map with USB keyboard and you'll easily figure out why.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31419 (On Collab difficulty convert map)
And there are tens of maps that USB keyboards would fail.

Everything begins when 4 keys release and 3 notes pressed at the same time.(Or similar things)
Players cannot release their former pressing finger away from keyboard really fast, causing their un-released key press conflict with the newly-pressed key press.

You may say that "It's easy to avoid using 7key at the same time. Just slightly separate these notes it would be OK to press like this."


or

But HOW SLIGHTLY? Actually 1/2 separates ARE NOT ENOUGH on some long key pressing length keyboard to make these keyboards having ability to press these notes perfectly. It's extremely hard to satisfy these keyboards!

You may say that "People may press keys very rapidly in order not to make another key pressed down when the first key is not raised up." But believe me, people would just go crazy to do so before they buy a new keyboard. (They need faster than FD[FD] key releasing speed to do so in nearly every song!) It's unreasonable to force players play super-tricky presses because they are using USB keyboards, right?

You may say that without this rule, these keyboards may be in harsher condition.
Some of them ARE in harsher disadvantage. But do we have to satisfy them all? Some of them are just too hard to be satisfied.
Consider this: "For there are mouse that is very hard to click 2 times in a second (Actually they do exist!) we should ban every 120+ streams. " That is the same logic.

We may have much less interesting thing in o!m in order to support the poorest keyboard. (Nearly every hard or higher diffs, including many conversion, even currently ranked maps, have styles that are not suitable for extreme long key press keyboards.)

One of great example on 7key is as this G59 song:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/85585

At 2:01, there are one situation that 2 sliders are released, 3 sliders which represent a chord group of some synth instrument are pushed and 2 other notes representing strong drum hits are there.
These 5 notes have their own meaning, without any one of the notes, this some fall incomplete.


7key at the same time is seldom used and are mostly appearing in insane difficulties. It is used with great care and every of them are full of reasons. Starters are not going to touch them until they become expert,so we should not worry about overusing of this style and trouble to beginners.

What do you think?

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

xxbidiao wrote:

This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.

The beeping is caused by ghosting - no ghosting, no beeping. Assuming I have the right model, here is an inexpensive USB keyboard - again, if I have the right model this is what my community college uses - that does not run into ghosting under the 6 key rule with the default layout:

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-41A5289-SK ... b+keyboard

But 7 keys? Yeah, that'd cause the beeping.

xxbidiao wrote:

Considering most keyboards use USB connections which do not allow 7 simultaneous presses

What? I have cheked 3 USB keyboards, 2 of them support 7 simultaneous presses of "s d f spc j k l" and 1 requieres remapping to "d f g spc j k l".

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

My point is that this rule can NOT help USB keyboard access all maps.
It is really good for accessibility - though this rule doesn't help.
And the accessibility is heavily depending how you play.
With 7 key at the same time press, A USB kb player can press the first 6 notes and very tricky and fastly release the 6 notes and hit the last note in 10ms causing everything goes 300g well. Can you say this is available to every player?
So it's just a selection between OK keyboards and tricky playing. Other than this rule, the game itself already make players going mad with these keyboards. So there are really no point to support these keyboards - they may just consider changing a keyboard other than practice for tens of years for this human-impossible move.

Ekaru wrote:

xxbidiao wrote:

This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.

The beeping is caused by ghosting - no ghosting, no beeping. Assuming I have the right model, here is an inexpensive USB keyboard - again, if I have the right model this is what my community college uses - that does not run into ghosting under the 6 key rule with the default layout:

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-41A5289-SK ... b+keyboard

But 7 keys? Yeah, that'd cause the beeping.

Though ghosting may cause this problem, I'm talking about a briefier situation when you ACTUALLY press 7 key but you are not willing to do that. (For ghosting keyboard, this may be easier to occur.)

The current problem the ghosting keyboards have (with the current rules) is that you need to release quickly some keys in order to press all the notes correctly, depending in how fast the chart is. With a very fast chart (300bpm) and with notes separated by 1/4, the time a player has to release the keys is about ~45ms (in the case of pressing 3 keys and then having to press 4 different keys) to be able to press everything. With practice, this is possible (though it would be much easier having a non-ghosting keyboard).

If we removed the rule, there would be an ever harsher disadvantage for ghosting keyboards. If you need to press 7 keys at the same time, you would need to press 6 keys first, release them extremely quickly (about 10ms), and then press the remaining key (also you can press 1 key first, and then 6, or any other combination). This is more confusing and harder to do than the previous case. I doubt any player would do this consistently.

So you propose we force players the play the game incorrectly with an unnecessary technique, because they don't have hardware?

MMzz wrote:

So you propose we force players the play the game incorrectly with an unnecessary technique, because they don't have hardware?

Of course we should not force players to do that.
These tricky playing technique is some examples where this rule is obeyed but terrible things happened.

And, of course we shuold not blame players who can't release their fingers enough fast to perform these tricky plays, right?

My point is that it's really hard to satisfy every keyboards, and this rule can never make them happy.

Full Tablet wrote:

The current problem the ghosting keyboards have (with the current rules) is that you need to release quickly some keys in order to press all the notes correctly, depending in how fast the chart is. With a very fast chart (300bpm) and with notes separated by 1/4, the time a player has to release the keys is about ~45ms (in the case of pressing 3 keys and then having to press 4 different keys) to be able to press everything. With practice, this is possible (though it would be much easier having a non-ghosting keyboard).

If we removed the rule, there would be an ever harsher disadvantage for ghosting keyboards. If you need to press 7 keys at the same time, you would need to press 6 keys first, release them extremely quickly (about 10ms), and then press the remaining key (also you can press 1 key first, and then 6, or any other combination). This is more confusing and harder to do than the previous case. I doubt any player would do this consistently.

They ARE in harsher disadvantage. But do we have to satisfy them all? Some of them are just too hard to be satisfied.
Consider this: "For there are mouse that is very hard to click 2 times in a second (Actually they do exist!) we should ban every 120+ streams. " That is the same logic.

It is always a good thought to make best availibility, but sometimes it is unreasonable.

Your arguments make sense and the examples in OP do have a point, but I don't think 7 simultaneous keypresses should be allowed. Gameplay-wise it makes sense, but then again it's really unfair to some people. (most people?)

Just call it simplifying and leave that one key out, we regular players will never even notice.

BRBP wrote:

Your arguments make sense and the examples in OP do have a point, but I don't think 7 simultaneous keypresses should be allowed. Gameplay-wise it makes sense, but then again it's really unfair to some people. (most people?)

Just call it simplifying and leave that one key out, we regular players will never even notice.

This would be only on several highest difficulties, and not many maps are going to use this technique for a few usage of them in the map may easily cause overmapping.

The few number of these maps make them even possible to form an approved category like in osu!

At the very least, the maximum simultaneous keys pressed in the map should be put in the beatmap description.

Jarby wrote:

At the very least, the maximum simultaneous keys pressed in the map should be put in the beatmap description.

I agree with that. Giving a warning is OK, and this may tell the mappers not to overuse it for you have to mention that.
I'm even considering making them approved as a warning signal, but peppy may never agree with that

xxbidiao wrote:

I'm even considering making them approved as a warning signal, but peppy may never agree with that

woc agrees with that, though. p/1956263

woc2006 wrote:

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

pretty much that, maybe add some guideline/recommendation that limit the maximum number of keys-at-the same time in easier difficulties... since some keyboards have ghosting enabled at already at 3-4 keys...
buying new hardware to just play easier diffs is even worsier..

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

pretty much that, maybe add some guideline/recommendation that limit the maximum number of keys-at-the same time in easier difficulties... since some keyboards have ghosting enabled at already at 3-4 keys...
buying new hardware to just play easier diffs is even worsier..

keys-at-the-same-time are extremely rare in easy difficulties and actually mappers are going to handle it well because of the mechanism used to make o!m maps. (If there are no sound, there are no notes.)
Besides, you may try modify your keyboard layout to support 6 key hits. (Sometimes it may be hard to find such layout, but getting 4 keys at the same time working may solve nearly every note style until you decided to try insane.)

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

I don't know what do you mean by "without having to tweak things". Allowing 7keys are a bit different from hidden notes. As said in my former example, you can't just blame 120+ bpm streams "normal plays" because of some weak mouses have to "tweak things" to do so.
In current rule, these maps are not even going to be approved. I feel making these maps going approved may be a great solution.

Sp3ct3r wrote:

tbh, i personally think that people who's complaining about the fact that they can't press 7 keys at the same time are too lazy to map the keys and find the right layout to avoid it. this really limits creativity for some maps imo.

Well, I'm not lazy. I've bought (wireless, blame me, but I bought it cause I like to lay on my coach), Microsoft Desktop Wireless 4000 (or 2000 i don't remember now, because I'm not at home atm), and it allows me to hit MAX of 6 keys. Independently of what I press. It's probably limited at hardware level. I've spent almost 20 $ (Well, in poland it's very much - because our minimum salary is somewhere at 1300 PLN - about 425 $). I won't buy even more expansive keyboard, just to be able to FC some things.

@xxbidiao Your argument with "former example, you can't just blame 120+ bpm streams "normal plays" because of some weak mouses have to "tweak things" to do so." Is just stupid. Why? Because I'm mouse only players, and with that, and some practice I'm able to do freedom dive [Another] streams. And hardware is not limiting me here, but my personal skill does.

Anyway, I'm not against removing this rule, but I won't support it.

Does this rule also not allow something like this?



I think even if you can only press 6 keys at once you can do something like this without a problem.
Or any other variation with at least 1 hold note

Depending on your keyboard and keys, if your keyboard can't hold all 7 keys at the same time, it wont be able to press all those 7 even if you were holding some for some time.

Technically you don't hit 7 simultaneously in that setup because you can let go of the holds and hit that single note instead of hitting that single and then letting go. Like you should anyway.

I don't see a problem with that even though generally I'm against 7.

Hanyuu wrote:

Does this rule also not allow something like this?



I think even if you can only press 6 keys at once you can do something like this without a problem.
Or any other variation with at least 1 hold note

This one is further explained by rule as "not allowed." Though most mappers are mostly complained on disallow of this pattern.

Might be off-topic but from another prespective... Most mania maps I see are in 7K or below, which implies that the removal/amendment of such a rule would enable, or even encourage "full press"("全押し") in many maps, as few maps(rare cases of 8K, let alone 8K is rare itself) could make other use of it. "Full press"es are much hated, maybe because they are lazy, brutal, physically (instead of musically) demanding or impossible, and provides little hint of music relevation to players. Players that hate them tag charts that use such patterns as "tatsh shit charts"(literally...). Having players crash their keyboard itself may not be as good as it sounds, let alone technical problems being discussed over.

This might be fine technically but personally I would hate to see osu!mania becoming loudness!mania so I'm against this.

EDIT: Oh I saw the pics after I got out of CERNET, seems you like those patterns so whatever 23333
555th post yeah

there is one input mode for osu!mania: the keyboard. your argument involving the mice that can't normally click 2x a second or whatever meaning 120+ streams should be banned in standard is therefore completely invalid, as players which cannot use their mice to stream will instead be able to use their keyboard instead.

this means that players with poorer hardware attempting to play otherwise standard osu!mania maps at higher difficulties run the risk of hitting a wall not because of their skill level, but because of the hardware that they are forced to work with.

99% of all policy changes are a compromise between allowing mapper freedom and working within the limits of the game for what is acceptable when catering to an extremely large people with a varied set of hardware. i do not develop osu!mania at all, but i can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that this limitation will likely not be changed, as to do so would be to omit a compromise and instead favor a particular sect of the playerbase.

sorry, but that's the way these things are.

Ephemeral wrote:

there is one input mode for osu!mania: the keyboard. your argument involving the mice that can't normally click 2x a second or whatever meaning 120+ streams should be banned in standard is therefore completely invalid, as players which cannot use their mice to stream will instead be able to use their keyboard instead.

this means that players with poorer hardware attempting to play otherwise standard osu!mania maps at higher difficulties run the risk of hitting a wall not because of their skill level, but because of the hardware that they are forced to work with.

99% of all policy changes are a compromise between allowing mapper freedom and working within the limits of the game for what is acceptable when catering to an extremely large people with a varied set of hardware. i do not develop osu!mania at all, but i can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that this limitation will likely not be changed, as to do so would be to omit a compromise and instead favor a particular sect of the playerbase.

sorry, but that's the way these things are.

...I would like to say that we have a bunch of other hardware to play osu!mania besides keyboard just like using board to play osu!, though It's already off-topic (Yeah the mice problem is already off-topic.)
This problem is like TAG4 in osu maybe. I agree on that these maps should not be normally ranked (Not normally appreciated), but several use of them may be able to make them approval at least, as what woc said in his post.

Cirno wrote:

Might be off-topic but from another prespective... Most mania maps I see are in 7K or below, which implies that the removal/amendment of such a rule would enable, or even encourage "full press"("全押し") in many maps, as few maps(rare cases of 8K, let alone 8K is rare itself) could make other use of it. "Full press"es are much hated, maybe because they are lazy, brutal, physically (instead of musically) demanding or impossible, and provides little hint of music relevation to players. Players that hate them tag charts that use such patterns as "tatsh shit charts"(literally...). Having players crash their keyboard itself may not be as good as it sounds, let alone technical problems being discussed over.

This might be fine technically but personally I would hate to see osu!mania becoming loudness!mania so I'm against this.

EDIT: Oh I saw the pics after I got out of CERNET, seems you like those patterns so whatever 23333
555th post yeah

I can't agree more. This rule amendment is only for these maps which one or two full press may grant better effect to the map, not these maps with a lot of full press.

Ephemeral wrote:

this means that players with poorer hardware attempting to play otherwise standard osu!mania maps at higher difficulties run the risk of hitting a wall not because of their skill level, but because of the hardware that they are forced to work with.

This assumes that either all, or a large portion of high level maps would make use of 7 keys at once, which I highly doubt. Even in some of the extremely difficult o2jam charts, as an example, there are relatively few which actually use all 7 keys at once. There's quite a large selection which don't use that, even if they technically could have. Even with the 6 key limit removed there would be relatively few cases where you can legitimately justify using all 7 keys, and that can be controlled by modding, as opposed to a blanket rule.

Ephemeral wrote:

99% of all policy changes are a compromise between allowing mapper freedom and working within the limits of the game for what is acceptable when catering to an extremely large people with a varied set of hardware. i do not develop osu!mania at all, but i can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that this limitation will likely not be changed, as to do so would be to omit a compromise and instead favor a particular sect of the playerbase.

sorry, but that's the way these things are.

The maps that would benefit from the removal of this rule are not playable by the majority of players to begin with due to difficulty. the majority of players do not play high level Insanes, which is primarily the set of maps that would benefit from the removal of this limitation. While you could argue that regardless of the sample size, there are still people whose keyboards are incapable of more than 6 keys at once, I would like to point out that most people who are willing to put the time and effort into getting good enough to play these would likely be wiling to put the extra effort into finding a key setup that worked or a keyboard that is capable of 7 keys at once.

Again: this change would not affect the vast majority of maps or players. It would only affect the maps where patterns which make use of 7 keys at once are acceptable, which is only a small subset of maps in the first place.

While the pro mania players may only be a small subset of players, they are no less important the the majority.

the knock-on effect of allowing such a technique would increase its prevalence in map usage for a nominal time afterwards - i've seen this happen countless times in controversial standard mode mapping techniques and i am certain it would happen in osu!mania as well.

you said it best - we're not about to open a can of worms and introduce potentially exclusive techniques into accepted mapping standards when the only people that can benefit from them are the top 0.1% of players.

if negotiated properly, an approval mapset may suffice to cover application of this "rule" in conventional mapsets where it is appropriate for the track and not overused.

Ephemeral wrote:

the knock-on effect of allowing such a technique would increase its prevalence in map usage for a nominal time afterwards - i've seen this happen countless times in controversial standard mode mapping techniques and i am certain it would happen in osu!mania as well.

The knock on effect should be combated by proper modding and proper review by the BATs on what gets ranked in the first place and should not be considered in whether or not the rule should be invalidated.

Ephemeral wrote:

you said it best - we're not about to open a can of worms and introduce potentially exclusive techniques into accepted mapping standards when the only people that can benefit from them are the top 0.1% of players.

Osu cultivates a system where players are effectively pitted against each other the moment they play a ranked map, via the ranking system. Within a competitive environment, raising the skill ceiling is only a good thing, as the higher the skill ceiling, the more effectively you can rank top players against each other. Saying that within a system, something that "only effects the top 0.1% of players" is a bad thing is ridiculous. The top players are as important as any other subgroup of players, and deserves to have the chance to play maps which test their skill, however good they are at the game.

The other reason I think that your reasoning here is flawed is that if people DO make maps which use all 7 keys, even if they are targeted at the pros, and popular with the pros, they are excluded from factoring into a player's ranking. This has a knock-on effect of disincentivizing playing those maps in the first place, because people care too much about their rank to play stuff that won't have any impact on it.

Ephemeral wrote:

if negotiated properly, an approval mapset may suffice to cover application of this "rule" in conventional mapsets where it is appropriate for the track and not overused.

I'd like to see Approval used more widely, but it seems like the general trend has been to try to remove Approved as an option in the first place (hence the "approved is only for marathons" rule), which I also happen to disagree with (but that's a whole other can of worms).

If you're going to say that Approval is an option, make it very clear with a rule stating that it's possible, because as it stands, "Approved Category is only for Marathon maps." which clearly states that the only reason something may be Approved is if it exceeds 6 minutes, and thus counts as a marathon.

I was going to write more about approval, but instead, I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality. This is only tangentially related to the issue at hand, but if we are going to keep the 6 key limit, and Approval the way it is, there should be some better way to separate complete, quality maps which don't meet the ranking guidelines but don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the garbage that is the graveyard.

I'm not saying that we should somehow incentivize that sort of mapping behavior, because I agree that the majority of maps should be targeted towards as wide an audience as possible. However, the current system effectively penalizes people for not making a rankable map in the first place, which in turn penalizes people for experimenting or creating unique maps that break some rules, but are worth being noted. If you're some random nobody that doesn't actually know anyone, it's effectively impossible to get an audience for anything you do, even if it's worth being seen.

For a game that is community driven, there are an awful lot of rules or systems in place which hurt the community here.

Also, my pattern creativity to map for osu!mania is barred due to this rule that majority of osu!mania community hates it.

When I say tweaks, I mean that you have to change settings or options just to be able to play the game. Eph already said my general stance, but keeo in mind that this sort of technique is limiting to all players until thet go out of their way to purchase additional hardware, which is something that shouldnt be needed in a free online game.

That said, setting the mapset to approval is a viable option. The problen with the old approval rules was that there was too muchsubjectivity in the requirement, but if ee have sonethung solid as the 7/8 keys at once, its something that yoy cant argue your way pyt of, at least. As for normal ranking, I would still be against it.

Garven wrote:

When I say tweaks, I mean that you have to change settings or options just to be able to play the game. Eph already said my general stance, but keeo in mind that this sort of technique is limiting to all players until thet go out of their way to purchase additional hardware, which is something that shouldnt be needed in a free online game.

That said, setting the mapset to approval is a viable option. The problen with the old approval rules was that there was too muchsubjectivity in the requirement, but if ee have sonethung solid as the 7/8 keys at once, its something that yoy cant argue your way pyt of, at least. As for normal ranking, I would still be against it.

Yeah approval is somewhere we come to the same point. Though woc had said that in early development period, I don't know when we will release the approved category limit to a wider range of maps.

Bobbias wrote:

The knock on effect should be combated by proper modding and proper review by the BATs on what gets ranked in the first place and should not be considered in whether or not the rule should be invalidated.

You are witnessing "proper review" at the moment.

Bobbias wrote:

Osu cultivates a system where players are effectively pitted against each other the moment they play a ranked map, via the ranking system. Within a competitive environment, raising the skill ceiling is only a good thing, as the higher the skill ceiling, the more effectively you can rank top players against each other. Saying that within a system, something that "only effects the top 0.1% of players" is a bad thing is ridiculous. The top players are as important as any other subgroup of players, and deserves to have the chance to play maps which test their skill, however good they are at the game.

The other reason I think that your reasoning here is flawed is that if people DO make maps which use all 7 keys, even if they are targeted at the pros, and popular with the pros, they are excluded from factoring into a player's ranking. This has a knock-on effect of disincentivizing playing those maps in the first place, because people care too much about their rank to play stuff that won't have any impact on it.

Restricting a technique which requires non-standard hardware to be able to possibly finish is not destroying the competitive nature of the osu!mania scene - I would argue that it exists solely to keep things competitive and fair for everyone to play. You make a blanket number of assumptions here about what players will play ("they do it foe the ranking, it's disincentivized because it's not ranked") when in actuality, people will play and compete on a map if they enjoy it over any other criteria it may have. That is why Approval is something that will likely be applied to this rule IF and only IF it is ever used in a scenario where it is considered justifiable. That has happened for osu! standard mapping practices in the past, though before the paradigm for approval changed completely. It can likely be established in a similar regard for o!m again if required.

Bobbias wrote:

I was going to write more about approval, but instead, I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality. This is only tangentially related to the issue at hand, but if we are going to keep the 6 key limit, and Approval the way it is, there should be some better way to separate complete, quality maps which don't meet the ranking guidelines but don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the garbage that is the graveyard.

I'm not saying that we should somehow incentivize that sort of mapping behavior, because I agree that the majority of maps should be targeted towards as wide an audience as possible. However, the current system effectively penalizes people for not making a rankable map in the first place, which in turn penalizes people for experimenting or creating unique maps that break some rules, but are worth being noted. If you're some random nobody that doesn't actually know anyone, it's effectively impossible to get an audience for anything you do, even if it's worth being seen.

When you say things like this, I begin to think that you have had 0 experience with actually mapping and pushing a map with fringe techniques through the process and getting feedback to refine it further. After checking your profile, this seems to be the place, and I would highly encourage you to get involved in modding to see how the system works before making grandiose statements about its effectiveness.

Experimental techniques are often consolidated and refined extensively throughout the modding process - a number of otherwise controversial techniques have entered into standard mapping repertoire that way, and I suspect osu!mania's mapping scene will be absolutely no different

Bobbias wrote:

For a game that is community driven, there are an awful lot of rules or systems in place which hurt the community here.

I invite you to detail these rules and systems and where you see problems with them. Preferably in another thread, or in private messages.

In regards to the non-standard hardware issue, be aware that only 50% of users polled are able to press 7 or more keys simultaneously. I'm surprised the results of this poll weren't mentioned earlier, though 112 users isn't the best sample. Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that this is alienating half of the userbase as I'm sure many of them would prefer to play with less keys or don't even care for osu!mania, but it does put it into perspective.

Jarby: Not to mention that many laptops don't have P/S 2 ports, so that's not exactly easy to fix without using non-default layouts, even if they did go out and buy a new USB keyboard.

Jarby wrote:

In regards to the non-standard hardware issue, be aware that only 50% of users polled are able to press 7 or more keys simultaneously. I'm surprised the results of this poll weren't mentioned earlier, though 112 users isn't the best sample. Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that this is alienating half of the userbase as I'm sure many of them would prefer to play with less keys or don't even care for osu!mania, but it does put it into perspective.

I've read that post.
Actually I'm surprised that half of the osu! community members can press 7 or more key at the same time when playing only a 2-key pressing game. (For my experience, if you pick a random keyboard, you are likely to only have 20% possibility to make it 7key-able.)
The percentage is mainly based on who answered the question. besides the low sample amount you have mentioned in your post, the target of the poll itself has a great flaw: It is asked to everyone including players playing osu!mania and those doesn't play osu!mania.

Back to my first years of mania playing experience, I always ask the keyboard seller the question "Does your keyboard support 7key?"
A great deal of USB keyboard does not support 7key, BUT THERE ARE SOME THAT DO SUPPORTS WITHOUT TWEAKING ANYTHING. (which may be also relatively low in price, e.g. DT-35fps).
And 7key ability is not a making-price-higher option, it's only the keyboard producer's choice.
In osu! community, since there are no requirements before, it's easy to figure out that people will buy a better keyboard with better performance on all other aspects such as key pressing feelings, extra control keys and lightweight (Maybe relatively dear) without considering its 7key ability.
That's why the post gets only half satisfactory on 7key ability.
If you ask the same question to mania community like "If you have pretty much mania experience and how many keys at the same time can you press", since 7key or even 8key ability is a must to gameplay in other similar games, I believe that would be 90% or even higher.

Anyway we may need further survey on that.

Bobbias wrote:

I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality.

Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.

xxbidiao wrote:

The percentage is mainly based on who answered the question. besides the low sample amount you have mentioned in your post, the target of the poll itself has a great flaw: It is asked to everyone including players playing osu!mania and those doesn't play osu!mania.

This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.

xxbidiao wrote:

Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.

Great quality maps as always, are largely subjective. If they cannot be ranked due to technical issues with their construction, then that is an area for improvement in the taiko ranking criteria which to my knowledge has always been poorly formulated and substantiated by the taiko modding community. Difficulty does also not infer quality and mapsets should always be catered to a large set of players - not just one or two exclusive groups. This is the primary issue that the taiko community has - there are perhaps maybe 3-4 people who are willing to map equivalent normals and hards while everyone else is content to map crazy onis that only 0.1% of the playerbase can regularly score in.

This is an issue for another thread, though.

Ephemeral wrote:

This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.

So whatsoever 50% or 90% or further survey needed, there are a not-so-small group of players who can play 7keys.
That made me thought back of DJMAX Online, which looking onto the problem of "a few player can't press 7key" issue, put a pretty good solution to it:
In the highest difficulty, maps are divided into 2 categories:
"Maximum", which allows 7key at the same time, which is mostly for keyboard players at that time.
"SuperCrazy", which only allows 2+2[SP keys] whichi is a maximum of 4, to be pressed at the same time.
And they developed into different playing styles and all developed well.

What will happen if we imagine "SuperCrazy" as ranked and "Maximum" as approved? (For DJMAX is mostly originally from arcade play, where in most cases no 7key presses, SC diff is the orthodox as ranked in our community.)

That sounds like an amiable solution for the issue, actually.

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

+1

Sp3ct3r wrote:

tbh, i personally think that people who's complaining about the fact that they can't press 7 keys at the same time are too lazy to map the keys and find the right layout to avoid it. this really limits creativity for some maps imo.

in fact I said, avoid it in easier difficulties. ( And peoples, like me, usually like a "piano"-like layout )
Easier difficulties shouldn't require to find a layout to permit it. And I've never seen 7-keys being used that easily

I can support xxbidiao solution.

If you can't press all the keys out once, you can actually have a tweek in the settings. My current keyboard can't press seven keys at the same time WHEN my keys are S,D,F,[Space],J,K,L. So what I did was, I change J,K,L to U,I,O and it totally works for me now. It just needs a little adjustment on the hand position and you'll get used to it.

I'm totally supporting the removal of this rule btw.

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

Approval is for marathon maps.

I find it funny that this rule exists to begin with. Any rule which has as a consequence mapping itself being limited is bad.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.

Anyways, how many high end players are there? Because I get the feeling having to press 7 keys at the same time is not something that happens on not-difficulty-insane maps. Following that logic, and assuming most good players come from other rhythm games where you had to press 7k (meaning they have a keyboard which enables them) I don't get why this could trouble "a lot of people". Most players not being able to press 7k at the same time don't really play osu!mania to begin with (meaning they are not serious, casuals, playing low difficulties), and if they do I really doubt they are on a level high enough to play maps which would include such a pattern.

I'd like add my voice to those expressing dissent over this rule. I didn't understand why it was there from the beginning. You see, this immediately invalidates like 50% of the top level official "maps" in the rhythm game I came from (it's o2jam). Not allowing 7 keys at the same time is simply unthinkable as somebody so used to seeing it. The comparison to fast osu streams is a good one just to understand the gut reaction against it.

Most of the time 7 keys being pressed at the same time involves complicated long notes, a staple of higher level o2jam mapping. An example from a popular official o2jam map: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFSCkGWpi_w#t=1m22s. I was amazed the first time I saw this sort of thing, and the creativity behind love long notes still awes me. It's not mashing; it is the opposite. Long notes are hard not because of the physical difficulty of holding them, but the cerebral effort involved in seeing when to hold and release. It is an exercise in reading.

I just think it's a mistake to deprive osu!mania of this style of mapping so beloved by so many. You can tell they are loved because the high difficulty fan-made or unofficial maps all include them all of the time and pros play these maps all the time. osu!mania can be better. It can appeal to a wider userbase by allowing 7 simultaneous keys.

A completely understandable compromise is to allow 7 keys in Insane maps only, or to make 7 key maps approved. If you have invested enough time to do well in Insane maps, you should be able to go through the trouble of getting a new keyboard. Just for the sake of long notes and for your souls, don't take it away. You have no idea how important it is to many of us.

woc2006 wrote:

xxbidiao wrote:

How about this?

-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)

Approval is for marathon maps.

We already have some exceptions in other modes.
Besides, let's look at the rule itself:
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.

Actually, the rule itself explained why it is there - to limit the "one-diff-mapset". And as in my suggestion, these maps are not going to benefit from this "primary" approval goods (thus need 2 diffs except it is already marathon). It is only for a mark, not something really meaningful. (Or we can expand another category for mania?)

And I have heard louder suggestions from the community to just abandon the 7key rule. Why don't we push this topic forward faster?

I also support the idea of creating some sort of extra way to categorize maps which allow all 7 keys. We don't have the same problem the taiko community has with most taiko mappers. Our mappers have shown that they are willing to focus on proper difficulty spreads. This is something that everyone agreed on right off the bat because we have been quite aware that we need to draw more players into the game.

I think something to take out of this discussion beyond whether or not 7 keys at once should be acceptable is whether or not the approval rule should be reconsidered. Many solutions which call for a separate category of maps would be served by using Approved. Maybe it's time to re-examine that rule.

Wishy wrote:

I find it funny that this rule exists to begin with. Any rule which has as a consequence mapping itself being limited is bad.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.

Anyways, how many high end players are there? Because I get the feeling having to press 7 keys at the same time is not something that happens on not-difficulty-insane maps. Following that logic, and assuming most good players come from other rhythm games where you had to press 7k (meaning they have a keyboard which enables them) I don't get why this could trouble "a lot of people". Most players not being able to press 7k at the same time don't really play osu!mania to begin with (meaning they are not serious, casuals, playing low difficulties), and if they do I really doubt they are on a level high enough to play maps which would include such a pattern.

Emphasis mine.

I understand what Graven is saying here, but I want to rebut his point here. While there are a number of undesirable mapping features, they all have different impacts (hidden notes vs slider layered over notes, for example). Hidden notes may be difficult, but they ARE used, and many people have no problem with allowing them despite the rules, as pointed out by Wishy. While I agree that there are plenty of cases where hidden notes (or 7k presses or any other mapping technique which is difficult to deal with) are undesirable, there are times when they can be acceptable or even preferred over other patterns. This means that instead of forbidding something outright, they should be effectively "regulated".

iantanye made a very good point with his video. That map is popular, and more importantly, official. This is something that the creators of the game directly allowed into an official chart. That is an important distinction, because official maps still followed internal rules and quality checks (considering they are still among the highest quality charts for the game).

xxbidiao wrote:

Or we can expand another category for mania?

I don't see why not, aside from whether peppy wants to implement it.

Just one thing, this rule sucks, needs to be deleted... or whatever you can do to allow real 7K maps.

DJKero wrote:

Just one thing, this rule sucks, needs to be deleted... or whatever you can do to allow real 7K maps.

real 7K maps != BMS/O2Jam/whatever maps

This is osu!mania, not some other game. Please read the discussion and the constructive criticism already given, and give proper feedback based on that rather than some other game.