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[Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft)

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Rivals_7
Beatmap Nominator
2,979 posts
Joined July 2014
Rivals_7
General
>Rules
Different key amounts within a mapset must be treated as different gamemodes and require a respective independent difficulty spread. Therefore each key amount must have an independent difficulty spread. For example if you want to add a 7K difficulty to your set, you must design a whole 7K spread. If you want to add an additional 4K difficulty to your set, you must also design a whole 4K spread.

You can't use uninherited timing sections when there is no actual BPM changes. In other words, you can't use uninherited timing sections slowly to change the scrolling speed. Use inherited timing sections and SV changes instead.
This seems to be missing completely, and its actually pretty important. is it intentional or the whole draft was meant as an additional to the current one we have?

>Guidelines
Only use breaks when they are necessary, for example an absolute silent period within the song.

You should use at least two different key amounts for your set. It is suggested to make your set more accessible to a wider audience.

Different key amounts within a mapset should have a similiar difficulty spread. This is to keep parity between different key amounts and satisfy different key amount players.
I think these should also be mentioned as well

And dont you think there's should be a guidelines about snapping the SV changes? just so it could be easier to calculate the normalization (since we literally have a ranked map with an SV that ranged in ms)

------------------------------------------------------------------

Hard
>Rules
Do not place any chords in the middle of streams.
you're not serious lol. this is actualy the most intuitive thing we have in Hard all the time. I disagree with this

Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.
what if the whole concept of the mapset were built just like that, or it was made by a GD? i mean, there should be a leniency between each map style used by GDs that are prefer using inverse patterns instead of ricey. Maybe move this to guideline instead

------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there's should be a diff-specific rule that mention a limit of note usage that could be used in a same time (especially when mapping higher keymode).
eg: Easy > Do not use more than 2 notes at the same time.

------------------------------------------------------------------

probably more to come if i can think up of smth. else looks kinda ok imo
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
Thanks for finally getting around to this 👍

  1. "Refer to this thread for alternative difficulty naming methods."
    - use https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Cr ... lty_Naming
    you can even edit that wiki entry as needed
Common Terms
  1. Teleport is really unclear, I have no idea what it means from this
  2. Long note - Maybe change the definition to make it clear that it's not the same object as a normal note, imo saying it's the equivalent of a slider would make it easier to understand.
  3. Brackets - Wait so are these chords 13, 24, 13 or 23, 14, 23. Also, "performing it correctly" doesn't exactly sound nice, just remove correctly
  4. iirc shields can also be before an LN?
  5. Jumptrill definition also encompasses split jumptrill, maybe make it clearer it's 12, 34, 12
  6. Hands should probably be next to jumps since they're essentially the same thing, handtrills also apply to 6k, so better to group stuff.
  7. For Roll, "last to the first column" can just be replaced with "vice versa" for simplicity
General
  1. why isn't 10k supported, just asking since it's 100% viable for one person to play.
  2. "while replicating the sound behaviour in a visually appealing way"
    Why does it have to be visually appealing? Making your map look pretty should not be a rule, there are valid circumstances where looking ugly follows the song better
  3. "Take caution as chart readability gets heavily affected"
    Remove the word chart, it's the only time it's used. Also, add chart to the common terms
  4. "Add the style of your beatmap into their tags"
    wat
    why
Difficulty Specific

Easy
  1. "Long notes at the same column" -> "Long notes in the same column"
    - Was unclear what this was asking, in general, replacing "at" with "in" would make more sense
  2. "to ensure that new players have a good experience of clearing the songs they like."
    - this is kinda weird to read, just have "so new players can enjoy clearing the songs they like" or something simpler
  3. "Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM"
    - Variable bpm =/= Multi-bpm
    - variable bpm is stuff with like, 100 red lines. "Multi-bpm" describes a song with a timing change. This needs to be changed to encompass multi bpm
Hard
  1. HP and OD values should not be higher than 8 to give players get a good experience of clearing songs they like.
    - At this point players are no longer new, they can still clear songs they like on normal difficulty so I don't understand why the second half of the sentence is there.
  2. Do not place any chords in the middle of streams
    - This rule is really dumb, just saying. 1/3 streams with chords are acceptable, especially with lower bpm. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/682665
    Making this a rule creates extreme limitations on mapping for lower bpm and 1/3 songs. This needs to be moved to guidelines, or be bpm dependant similar to how the ctb ranking criteria works for hyperdash snaps, or just be removed completely..
  3. Long notes should not be shorter than 1/4 in length.
    - Again, extremely bpm dependant, see the map I linked before at the start of the chart. 1/6 snapped LNs like this are easy due to the low density at the time.
Expert
  1. Long notes that are into more jazz rhythm should usually have 1/3 or 1/6 releases
    - the term is "swing beat", but that's not even needed. Just say that releases should match the song's rhythm snap

    also, why is it not a guideline on insane
This will need to be re-proposed in the same format later since there are going to be a lot of changes
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum

Sinnoh wrote:

General
  1. "Add the style of your beatmap into their tags"
    wat
    why
imo this is good for searching a specific type of patterning. standard should adopt this too.
Virtue-
Beatmap Nominator
1,112 posts
Joined March 2015
Virtue-
Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows.
Beginner difficulties are for players who have absolutely no experience in this game mode whatsoever. This would be recommended for them so they have a starting grasp of playing the game mode and to get themselves used to which key to press for which column.

Difficulties like these are not required for a full, rankable spread. However, they are most certainly recommended for the song to be accessible by new players.
i dont think we need beginner difficulty for some reasons :

1. whats the different between beginner and easy difficulty? i think the gap between isnt too much and what we need in a rankable mapset is an easy difficulty that has been stated before. I know its not a must to put beginner difficulty in our mapset, but its kinda trigged me if anyone put beginner difficulty and easy on his/her map. like, its completely useless because they're both almost the same.

2. im also agree with what Mentholzzz said



if you want to play something more easier than the easy diff in osu mania mapset, you can play convert from osu mapset (it will give you some basics about how to get use to mania)

3. And if its a MUST to put beginner difficulty on the mapset, i think you need to reconsider this again. Lets say that we make an easy and simple song (eg. R3 Music Box) how can you make a beginner difficulty for that song? i mean, easy and normal difficulty is quite enough (you can make it harder tho)

thats all i want to say, please correct me if my argue or the way i thought about it is wrong. thank you!
Shima Rin
1,304 posts
Joined March 2015
Shima Rin
Some suggestions

Common Terms
  1. Common terms might have more classified order. For example, when you mention Chords, Hands and Jumps can be mentioned after this since they are basically referring to the same group of patterns.
  2. Also, classification such as "game elements" or "note patterns" can be used to make things more in order, as mania has way complex pattern arrangements than other modes like taiko.
  3. When you mention Mini-jack, why not put Jack too into the terms?
  4. "BPM", "Snappings" can be added to the Common terms, just like osu!taiko RC. Copying from osu!taiko RC:
    BPM: An acronym for “beats per minute” used to determine the tempo of a song.
    Snapping: Timeline tick where an object is placed.
  5. Also agree with Sinnoh that I think shields can be referred to notes before an LN, and actually I always refer to such before rather than after.
  6. "Split rolls" is mentioned in the diff-specific RC but it is not defined in the Common Terms. Go add it.
General
  1. Add the style of your beatmap into their tags.This serves good as a suggestion to the community, but I don't think it is proper to be in the RC. RC should not limit people on the use of tags in my opinion.
  2. Also, another good point to mention about hitsounds is something like "Avoid placing storyboard hitsounds when no notes are present." or "Storyboard hitsounds placed when no notes are present are discouraged."
Diff-specific Criteria
  1. Why is Beginner diff-specific criteria necessary? Go play osu!mania Tutorial if one does not know how to press things in my opinion.
  2. Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows.
    Obviously this proposes a conflict with existing RC. I can see that osu!mania Easy diff is somehow harder than other modes, but I don't think for now this thing should be mandatory. Normal satisfies the need of some beginners too. We can make a compromise by make the criteria of normal a bit easier, but I absolutely disagree with this rule.
  3. Do not place any chords in the middle of streams.
    This rule is limiting too much as the difficulty of streams varies when BPM and length of the pattern changes. We might have something in the guideline that "chords in the middle of streams with over X notes is discouraged."
  4. One more thing might be brought to stage is "stacks", when you mention hand balance stuff in Diff-specific Criteria. Add this word to the Common Terms, and may give out some general suggestions like "avoid long-stacks that can actually be assigned to other columns, unless they serve with certain purposes." to criteria for easy, normal, hard.
I am expecting this RC to come true one day. Hopefully we can make an ideal one upon which most of us can agree!
Shoegazer
osu!mania Paragon
528 posts
Joined April 2013
Shoegazer
The ranking criteria does not include any clause about how the layering (or deliberate patterning for that matter, but this is mostly irrelevant) scheme of a chart must be kept consistent unless there is a reason to deviate from the rules of a layering scheme. I have a document on layering if it is necessary, but I would like to see if the absence of such a clause is intentional.

That being said, grammatical errors aside, I do have further reservations with the ranking criteria:

Patterns
Column: Columns are the lines in the editor where the notes get placed. The editor uses 0|1|2|3, but many modders prefer to use 1|2|3|4, which is important for modding in osu!mania. These numbers may vary depending on the beatmap’s keymode.
Slider Velocity: For osu!mania, slider velocity adjusts the speed in which the notes scroll.
Teleports: A note whose motion is quick enough to skip any given location of the playfield instantaneously.
Mini-jack: A small number of consecutive notes in the same column, usually performed at a faster pace compared to surrounding notes.
Stream: A constant supply of notes with the same intervals that do not repeat to create a mini-jack.
Chords: Two or more notes performed at the same time.
Graces: Two or more notes performed in a quick succession.
Long note: A note that must be held and released in succession.
Release: The end of a long note which must be released within a certain timing window to score the entirety of the note properly.
Inverse: A type of pattern that replaces all regular notes with long notes in a given section.
Trill: Four or more notes that alternate within two columns.
Bracket: A pattern that uses alternating fingers to perform it correctly.
Shield: A note which appears shortly after a long-note.
Gluts: A constant supply of chords which do not repeat in all of the same columns.
Jumps: Two notes performed at the same time.
Jumpstream: A stream interlaced with jumps.
Jumptrill: A trill consisting of two alternating jumps.
Split jumptrill: A jumptrill which uses both hands at the same time to perform correctly - i.e two one-handed trills.
Hands: Three notes performed at the same time.
Roll: A variation of a stream consisting of notes that go from the first to the last column or last to the first column, usually done in quick succession.
- Minijack has no hyphen to it, and minijacks refer to 2 consecutive notes on the same column. The minijack itself has a faster "jack" motion than other patterns around it, but its rhythmic density is usually the same compared to other notes in the section.

- The description of "graces" refer to flams. Grace notes refer to the second (and/or) third notes of a flam.

- Trills refer to any set of notes (lasting three notes or longer) that alternate between two columns.

- The key component of "inverse" sections is that there is very little empty space (i.e. you're not hitting or holding a key) in that section. This means that the LNs must also be long enough to cover up near the entirety (90-95%) of the playfield. As it is, any section that is entirely made of LNs with short releases is considered an "inverse" section.

- The term "bracket" is only used in keymodes beyond 5K. Brackets refer to the alternation of three or more fingers (either 2 finger-1 finger or something similar) on the same hand. As it is, it refers to one-hand trilling as bracketing.

- Gluts can be better referred to as consecutive ("constant supply" in your case) chords. Jumpjacks/handjacks/jumptrills are all part of "gluts"; it's just that we refer to gluts as those aforementioned patterns when the gluts meet certain characteristics.

- Rolls are typically faster than the mode rhythmic density of a section.

RC:
Hard
Hard:
- Note snappings of 1/8 and above are disallowed. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level. An exception to this rule would be the usage of grace notes that are at higher-end snaps (1/8, 1/12 and 1/16) as they are only used to accentuate gracing sounds.
- Do not place any chords in the middle of streams.
- Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.

Guide:
- Avoid 1/4 streams made of more than 16 notes. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level.
- Mini-jack usage is discouraged, especially on higher BPM. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level.
- Long notes should not be shorter than 1/4 in length.
Rules:
- Certain sounds require the use of 1/8s, 1/12s and 1/16s to maximise the correspondence between an extant sound and the complementing note. I assume that that was an exception that was overlooked, for the reason for disallowing those snaps is that streams of that notation (at 150 BPM) can be excessively difficult.

- It is far better to establish a rule of thumb of maximum chord density (given a base of 150 BPM 1/4s) than to disallow chords altogether. Players at that level, however, should have little to no issue with 150 BPM jumpstream with doubles on every 2/1.

- Patterns per se are not "advanced", and the difficulty of the pattern is highly contingent on the speed of the pattern. It is better to establish a speed of the pattern that you are disallowing rather than disallowing the pattern altogether.

Guide:
- Players should be more than capable of hitting 16-note 1/4 streams at 150 BPM at that level. It would be better to use a higher BPM range (e.g. 200) instead or to remove the guideline altogether.

- Minijacks (2-note jacks) are not particularly demanding, for players can hit these minijacks at a tempo that is far slower than how fast the minijack is and still get good judgments. I would suggest removing this guideline.

- LNs per se are not difficult. Sinnoh brings up a good point of how the density of a section will affect the difficulty of LN releases. It is better to define the guideline further to avoid unnecessary misinterpretation.

Insane
Insane:
- Avoid 1/8 streams made of more than 8 notes. Streams of this type of snap are harder to pull off than snaps at the lower end, and as such should only be used if the song warrants it.
- Avoid using split rolls or any kind of complicated 1/8 streams. These types of patterns are much harder to execute properly and shouldn't be used unless the song is abrasive enough to warrant that type of pattern. Use simple rolls as an alternative so it matches the intensity of that portion of the song without making it difficult to play through.
- Using jumptrills of any kind that lead to a hand is discouraged. This is if the genre of the map is not intended to be technical, as this pattern is difficult to hit at a moderate to high speed. For 4K, this creates a mini jack that drastically increases the pattern difficulty. If a hand is really necessary, delete the note before it that would create the minijack.
- Using split jumptrills / brackets is discouraged. These are much more physically exhausting, awkward and take more control to properly execute compared to the standard jumptrills that alternate hands. Do not use both of these as if they are the same unless they are shorter than 5 notes long. Rare cases that allow these to be used are if the music here is abrasive enough to warrant the physical exhaustion.
- Players are far more than capable enough of hitting 1/8 streams at 150 BPM when they reach Insane level. It would be better to use a higher BPM range (e.g. 190) instead or to remove the guideline altogether.

- The latter rule is more applicable for 1/8 streams at 190+ BPM rather than 150 BPM. Most players are more than capable of hitting 300 BPM 16 note streams even with hard patterns.

- Minijacks (2-note jacks) are not particularly demanding, for players can hit these minijacks at a tempo that is far slower than how fast the minijack is and still get good judgments. I would suggest removing this guideline. Jumptrill to hand-based patterns should be assessed based on their suitability relative to the rest of the map (in terms of difficulty variance or musical relevance), and should not be discouraged completely.

- This guideline would be more applicable for 180-200 BPM 1/4 split jumptrills rather than 150 BPM.

Expert
Expert:
- Keep hand balance concepts clear for higher difficulties. For example, a regular jumptrill plays way easier than a split handed jumptrill so you have to be careful on its usage for high BPM songs.
- Long note release timings should use similar snaps than their press timings. Long notes that are into more jazz rhythm should usually have 1/3 or 1/6 releases while more rigid songs might use 1/4 or 1/8 snaps. Combining LN snaps for releases is fine but do it with caution.
- The first guideline is too vague to mean anything.

- Staccato LNs are not covered in the Expert guidelines (nor any of the guidelines for that matter); I assume that staccato LNs (extremely short releases) are permissible for Hard difficulties and above.

@Feerum:
Dump Charting
Yeah, we have basically talked to allow some kind of "dumps" in Mania but as much as we tried we couldn't come to some proper conclusion to be posted with this here.
This does not mean we dropped the topic!
This is not hard to do.

A semi-dump (as far as I've heard that you guys have defined it) is:
- A chart that uses ghost notes in a consistent and musically justifiable manner.
- A chart that deviates from a general layering scheme for reasons that go beyond reducing malignant difficulty variance. This is fairly vague however, and the idea of a "general layering scheme" is not established. The document I have gives a good idea of what "general layering rules" and "situational layering rules" are, but I do not know if it is worth it to cover them in the criteria.

You can include these rules:
- Under certain conditions (that pertain to the song, that is; e.g. the presence of both bass kicks and snares at a certain rhythm), you may use ghost notes for parts of the song that meet that condition. If you do use ghost notes in that manner, the use must be consistent. The level of rhythmic density created by ghost notes must be within reason (difficulty-wise), and the use of ghost notes must align with the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song.

- A high level of rhythmic density (e.g. a 1/6 or 1/8 stream) can correspond to a sound with a sustained peak period as long as the peak justifies that high level of rhythmic density (based on the intensity/volume of that sound). If you do ghost notes in that manner, the use must be consistent. The level of rhythmic density created by ghost notes must be within reason (difficulty-wise), and the use of ghost notes must align with the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song.

- Sections of a map that do not strictly follow the layering scheme established in the map are permissible if the map's intensity corresponds to the music's intensity relative to other sections in the map and song. This rule can only be reinforced if every note/chord in the map corresponds to sounds that are present in the song. (This may be exploitable however, which is inevitable for any ranking system that has no explicit quality control.) In hindsight, this rule is too exploitable for its own good. Overlayered charts have always been allowed as long as they were consistent, and overlayered charts that break away from their established layering schemes that were ranked did so because its difficulty variance might have been too undesirable otherwise.
Last edited by Shoegazer , edited 5 times in total.
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal
I feel that hard difficulties are already very hard right now for most of the players that want to get into mania. They usually do alright up until normals and completely die on hards. Mostly due to the fact that a) they cant play streams b) they cant play jumpstreams because well, they cant stream c) streams+LN layer.

I feel that hards should mostly if not exclusively be 1/4 streams and never 1/4 jumpstreams. Having chords on 1/2 is probably fine, as it helps to keep up accuracy on an easier chart but very light jumpstream could be, at most, debatable. This mostly just goes on for 4K I would argue, I feel on 7K not having chords on hards might be asking for too much but I am not a 7K charter myself so not sure.
Last edited by juankristal , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Do you guys these pattern are to much for hard 7k diffs:

SPOILER



Basically anything that requires extreme finger independence. I feel that's a thing for insane diffs and up


I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something

Okoratu wrote:

This is the current status of debate after they reached a deadlock. They wanted to allow semi-dumps but couldnt come up with criteria for them
I would describe such pattern as "patterns that don't follow any specific sounds within music, but instead the sound intensity, timbre , pitch, etc or a mix of any in a generalized manner". I don't think the definition is concrete, but it can offer grounds to stand on.
Maxus
Nomination Assessment Team
1,287 posts
Joined May 2014
Maxus

abraker wrote:

I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something
Do you mean this?
img
Because even in expert diff, the rule says it can't apply long-term SV for more than 1.1x
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
do make a distinction as to which keymodes certain terminologies are more commonly used. Future modders using the term js while modding a 7k chart can be ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

EDIT: Ill check out the while draft soon but rn forcing in Easies sounds p awful to me. At least for spreads that showcase at least two X diffs (in terms of actual difficulty and not necessarily SR) for the same keycount as an easy would definitely not work with how the music would turn out to be.
Last edited by lenpai , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Maxus wrote:

abraker wrote:

I also think there should something against making slider velocity high for too long. I see nothing disallowing a mapper from applying x1.5 for one minute in normal diffs unless I glossed over something
Do you mean this?
img
Because even in expert diff, the rule says it can't apply long-term SV for more than 1.1x
Those are in guidelines, not rules. Still allows an edgy mapper to argue for it
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Woa so much stuff already. Good to see people discussing and giving feedback. I gonna reply to some. Not to all because.. it's really a lot. But i try to reply to much as possible as soon as possible!

Mentholzzz wrote:

Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows.
The current raking criteria said that " Single-mode mapsets must include a reasonable spread of at least two difficulties. The lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Normal and it must comply with its respective mode’s difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria. " Wouldn't it cause a conflict ?
Also if this ranking criteria become real, the 2.00* diffculty rule will be gone , rite ?
Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.

But two weeks are long and we are open for any polite discussion and feedback regarding this step!

----

Rivals_7 wrote:

General
>Rules
Different key amounts within a mapset must be treated as different gamemodes and require a respective independent difficulty spread. Therefore each key amount must have an independent difficulty spread. For example if you want to add a 7K difficulty to your set, you must design a whole 7K spread. If you want to add an additional 4K difficulty to your set, you must also design a whole 4K spread.

You can't use uninherited timing sections when there is no actual BPM changes. In other words, you can't use uninherited timing sections slowly to change the scrolling speed. Use inherited timing sections and SV changes instead.

This seems to be missing completely, and its actually pretty important. is it intentional or the whole draft was meant as an additional to the current one we have?

>Guidelines
Only use breaks when they are necessary, for example an absolute silent period within the song.

You should use at least two different key amounts for your set. It is suggested to make your set more accessible to a wider audience.

Different key amounts within a mapset should have a similiar difficulty spread. This is to keep parity between different key amounts and satisfy different key amount players.

I think these should also be mentioned as well
>I actually thought the stuff with different o!m keymodes are treated as different modes is already somewhere written. Here or in the general criteria.. If not we will def. add this because it's indeed an important point.
>About using uninherited timing points.. this is pretty much covered in the General Criteria.
>The Break stuff is kinda redundant. People know how to set Break Times and stuff like this almost never happend in the past.
>Two Keymodes. So, Guidelines will work like "Guidelines may be violated under exceptional circumstances". If we add this, every mapper must explain why he didn't add another keymode to his set. This guideline seem also redundant for us.
>Same spread for different keymodes is indeed something that we should add into the draft. Not only as Guideline but as Rule. It is kinda an "unwritten rule" already. It actually wonder me that no one abused this in the past already :v But yes, will be added!

----

@Sinnoh. Thanks for the feedback and correcting the woring a little bit! Uhh.. quoting you would make this thread so incredibly long. We will def. re-work the term definition to make it a little bit more clear.

About 10K. It is not supported in the osu! client. 10K get's automatically converted into 5+5K (Dual Stage). You can't even set your o!m editor to 10K without editing the .osu. That's not how it should work. Lazer will maybe support 10K, should be this the case i see no reason why 10K should not be rankable. But for now it can't be.

----

Virtue- wrote:

i dont think we need beginner difficulty for some reasons :

1. whats the different between beginner and easy difficulty? i think the gap between isnt too much and what we need in a rankable mapset is an easy difficulty that has been stated before. I know its not a must to put beginner difficulty in our mapset, but its kinda trigged me if anyone put beginner difficulty and easy on his/her map. like, its completely useless because they're both almost the same.

3. And if its a MUST to put beginner difficulty on the mapset, i think you need to reconsider this again. Lets say that we make an easy and simple song (eg. R3 Music Box) how can you make a beginner difficulty for that song? i mean, easy and normal difficulty is quite enough (you can make it harder tho)

thats all i want to say, please correct me if my argue or the way i thought about it is wrong. thank you!
Let me reply to point 1 and 3 only. So first of all. Beginner difficulties are not required for a rankable spread. I think it's also stated pretty big in the draft. We simply thought it could be a cool idea because even a lot of current ranked Easy difficulties are simply too hard for a low of newbies.
Guess that answers both points at once :D.

----

Okay that were some of them. I will reply another time to the other and, hopefully new posts.
But i hope i could explain some stuff!
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
ok my time for my personal take on some stuff

this post may reiterate what i have said in my previous post

patterns
- make a distinction as to which terms are more commonly used in certain keycounts. Reading the term brackets for 7k and js for 4k when future modders use these terms can be eeeeeh
- add hyperlinks for more advanced terms like brackets which can cover a lot of examples. Images can be easily acquired here t/146615
- shields can both mean a regular note followed by an ln or an ln followed by a regular note. Though in modding i usually call the latter reverse shields.

beginner
Chords should be placed in a way that the player hits it with only one hand. That way, the player would require less hand coordination and would make the pattern easier to play. not necessary for higher keycounts as developing finger independence plays a very important factor in improvement. On can argue that a [26] would be more practical to use in isolation than a [12] or [67] (7k example). Just not a huge fan of this actually being in guidelines

easy
Note that Easy difficulties MUST be present in a mapset for it to be rankable. "you start to know how to read and press simple patterns" is the mindset this difficulty follows. the <2* SR rule was already kinda bad enough and now forcing easies on specific music is not very nice. Maybe abandon the need for easies on spreads that contain 2 or more X diffs (to be approached on a case by case basis cause SR inflation exists)

Note snappings of 1/4 and above are disallowed. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game. I dont think it is sensible to overall ban 1/4 especially when easy diffs are going to be forced on very technical music that may contain isolated 1/4 snap sounds.The ruling should be "two 1/4 notes in succession (or any snap higher) are prohibited" as techical music exists

normal
refer to second point in normal but for 1/6ths

hard
likewise but for 1/8ths

Do not place any chords in the middle of streams. this should be a guideline my ranked chart breeze Hard is a suitable counteratgument to this

if the remaining rules will rely 100% on spread progression rather than SR, then im good with the remaining points.
Lirai
1,516 posts
Joined December 2013
Lirai

Feerum wrote:

Okay so, the sense behind this was because o!m has a really really really harsh learning curve.. Easy diffs give a nice starting for o!m, sadly these get skipped way to often and we don't have that many proper easy diffs which also have pattern like a easy diff should have. With the difficult specific criteria we kinda show how a easy should look so new people get a proper start into the Mode.
I mean, it was a risky step of us but we thought we try it and see what the community say's to it. Ofc it causes a problem with the General Ranking Criteria and should be majority be fine with this step, it has to be re-written to fit to the Mania criteria.
Yes, i kinda agree with this, since new players they mostly play a converts easy difficulty and then found really hard and bad pattern after they climbed through advanced diff (for example random mini jack, shield, etc) which is mostly used in insane difficulty. having mapped properly like most of ranked mania maps could guide properly to play osumania. tho we can map 2 Normal or Hard escalating

In some cases we can skip to map beginner diff, like high bpm song. If the song can provide beginner snap like 1/2 or 1/1 i think it's really recommended to create it.
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
imo you'd have to be a super casual player to even consider sub 2s* a skill wall. If anything, i believe it is getting used to the game engine that's more tasking than actual finger coordination (8k+ being an exception).

(this next paragraph will stray away from the RC discussion but i felt the need to add it)
Converts are bad yes, but I guess a way we can prevent some people who start off with converts are and looking forward to improve would be to create an updated 4k/7k version of t/147552 kinda like t/175867 but without the need of pattern practice. But that's a different topic.

I'm ok with less difficult (up to NHIX) spreads as an example (which is the majority of ranked) having an E diff but it shouldnt really be forced everywhere. That way, most of future spreads will fulfill this requirement of catering well to newbies without having very erratic music charted inappropriately.
Last edited by lenpai , edited 1 time in total.
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
2 cent about easy diff : for most mappers who raises their voice regarding Easy diff shouldn't be a rule, there's a huge scope of community who doesn't raises their voice that possibly struggling with mania mapset being 'too hard' for normal diff as easiest diff in set.
i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm.. don't be discouraged (or lazy) to map easy diff for the community

(also consistency with other modes esp. osu!standard and osu!taiko)
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Arzenvald wrote:

i think they will appreciate if the map having easy diff to learn how to play the basic rhythm..
Makes sense on paper, but when I started out I mostly played autoconverts and didn't touch mania maps. I played autoconverts because that's what most of the weeb anime music was at and the extremely low OD (OD2 maybe 4) made it easy to just have fun playing maps for songs I liked. It was maybe 3 months in when I was at 2* level that I started playing mania maps to improve my skills. That's is pretty much normal difficulty. Half year in I was already trying 3* maps. I don't remember playing easy maps that were not autoconverts. I don't.

Bottom line, for casually playing, autoconverts suffice. Otherwise, you are very likely to be at normal difficulty when you realize you want to improve skill.
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald

uhh
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
^ Should reword it to either LN length or Distance between LN
or add "Spacing" to the glossary section
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
Last edited by Arzenvald , edited 1 time in total.
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai

Arzenvald wrote:

Looks like a quiet game-changing rule, with every LN should never be connected one to each other with 1/1 space between LN object

Tell me if im wrong
i believe that shouldnt be the case because

Normal Rule wrote:

Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/2 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a normal player to keep up with the release timings. Spacing of 1/4 is an exception as it’s allowed only for shield patterns for this level of difficulty
that means normal cant also have that kind of note usage and that's kinda dumb. please tell me this isnt actually the case

i personally interpret that, for easy, any ln length 1/1 or longer can be followed up by another note after release. If not, this should be the revised wording
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
also whether the spacing applies only for any object after the LN release, or also for any object before LN hit?

i mean, future Easy diff will be :

rankable :



unrankable :



rankable :



unrankable :



wew
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening
I kind of want to get into the discussion of this but I don't see any progress/revisions on the draft

I'm wondering who is the person to even direct questions to for this discussion

What stage is this proposal at, will it be finalized after 6th of April? (The discussion period is way too tight if you are stopping at 6th april)
Who are the people reviewing and updating the changes?

E: I think a channel on discord can work better than a thread anyways
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
tried to open discussion in discord but bleh
Easy Rule :
> Long notes at the same column must have a minimum spacing of 2/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
> Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/1 beats. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.
after i re-read the draft, this rule appears to be applies ONLY for 2 or more consecutive Long Notes, yes?
in other word this rule doesn't applies for Long Note & Note, correct?
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoayu
@evening, i want to collect all we can and then revise

idk what the mania peeps want, but directing this to my pms or any of their pms is wrong, i'll just tell you to post here because otherwise it'll be like "fucking oko forgot to put this shit into the draft that i posted him in pm on the 15th of March"
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Okay. Sorry for the late reply. The Rules right now about the long notes do not include enough clarification that stuff like this is still okay:

Screen


Having the LN start on the same timestamp like the previous ending will be still a thing. Because these are of course waaaaaay easier to play than pressing - releasing - (short time later) pressing again.

The idea behind that was to give the play in easy diffs enough time to actually see/realize what is going on and enough time to react to this.

For that the "minimum spacing". But we indeed should add something about it that pressing/releasing at the same time is still okay.

Now about Notesnapping within Easy: You can still place notes on 1/4 beats. You just can't place two or more following in 1/4.
To show it. This would be okay:
Screen


Stuff like this again not:
Screen


Mh.. maybe writing this out more clear would help. We just thought "Minimum Spacing between notes [..]" would sound even worse.
Last edited by Feerum , edited 1 time in total.
shionelove
1,522 posts
Joined September 2010
shionelove
i'm sure all of pattern rules are going to destroy enjoyment.
reducing notes to create easier diffs will cause these things
:boring maps,same patterns and same rhythms from R3 Music Box to goreshit.
:uncomfortable rhythm structures not only for beginners but players who like to get 1m score.

i always say,if there is a overmap which is made for harder diffs,there is a undermap which is made for easier diffs,too.
i strongly recommend remove these pattern rules,or at least move them guideline,or o!m is going to be dead.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

shionelove wrote:

:boring maps,same patterns and same rhythms from R3 Music Box to goreshit.
:uncomfortable rhythm structures not only for beginners but players who like to get 1m score.

i always say,if there is a overmap which is made for harder diffs,there is a undermap which is made for easier diffs,too.
i strongly recommend remove these pattern rules,or at least move them guideline,or o!m is going to be dead.
The way I see it, these rules serve as something to say how to name the difficulties correctly. It is very possible to make a 3.7* hard and a 5.2* hard just because of how broken the star rating is. Nobody is preventing you from making the patterns you want to make. They just fall under a category.
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Thanks for the input guys. We've taken your suggestions and will soon discuss and incorporate them into the amended RC. Stay tuned!
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoayu
Hi!

the draft is now up to date from this round of feedback, we'll leave it open for two more weeks to gather some more!

Check out the draft over at https://gist.github.com/Okorin/1a5f5d6f489494c26b8a4fec13ba69ba

BIG DISCLAIMER BEFORE I GET SPAMMED AGAIN:
i do not play mania, please do not address stuff pertaining to the details of this draft to me directly i dont know what half these concepts mean
error_exe777
720 posts
Joined February 2016
error_exe777
after skimming through it mostly seems okay because most of them are guidelines :^)

one thing i'd recommend adding however is "Hand" and "Handstream" to the common terms, meaning "Three notes played at the same time" and "A stream interlaced with hands" respectively, since they are pretty big terms that are chucked around quite frequently.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Only inherited timing points are allowed to create slider velocity changes. Take caution as chart readability gets heavily affected when using higher slider velocity values. These should also be snapped to a rhythm divisible by the snapping of the present notes. For example, 1/2 notes would ideally utilize 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 snappings, as opposed to 1/3.


Why is this a guideline exactly? I really don't see that you have any choice, as using redlines for anything else but defining the timing of a song is not allowed?

Note snappings of consecutive 1/4 and higher should not be present in this difficulty level. This essentially means that there must be at least more than ¼ of a beat of distance between every note. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


Really? As guideline? I am happy to see the cases where an Easy can have consecutive 1/4 notes, unless the BPM is like 80. Why is there no bpm threshold whatsoever?

Note snappings of 1/6 and above should not be used. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


Wait, you actually are fine with 1/4 in Normals? You are aware that Normals are the difficulty that is the lowest mandatory level for a mapset, right? That means that this kind of difficulty must be suitable for any person, even newcomers that never ever ever ever touched osu!mania before. This game mode already suffers massively from the horrible difficulty spike that people experience between Normal and Hard and Normals being WAY too dense. It's ironic how you mention an easy start off for beginners and then allow stuff that only advanced people can play that are already familiar with the game itself.

People playing Normals and Easys are challenged by the game's mechanics itself and do not need to be overly challenged by the beatmap itself, too. These thresholds altogether only make sense when you imbue a BPM limit, but 190bpm Normals with 1/4 is not a Normal, it's already a Hard. Generally, these entire steeps from Easy to Normal to Hard to Insane need all to be toned down by one step, Easys should have 1/1 at most, Normals 1/2, Hards 1/4 and Insanes whatever. Unless you make clear that this only applies to a certain amount of notes within a certain BPM range.

That you added this note density rule afterwards is a perfect contradiction to what you did anyways.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoayu
Ah the thing we forgot doing was defining what additional stuff would apply if the normal is the lowest difficulty in a mapset

second thing (the 1/4 and 1/6 thing) is a guideline for it to be flexibly scalable downwards and upwards - that doesn't really work with rules without coming up with some millisecond limit, in that sense the note density guideline isn't really contradicting the rest though

I can't comment on the other stuff like the values themselves because i dont actually know how to play a piano
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
Expert
Long note release timings should use similar snaps than their press timings
Why is this not in the general section? It makes no sense for any diff to have LNs end on 1/4 if the song is in 1/6

hand isn't defined anywhere
Hydria
1,247 posts
Joined April 2011
Hydria
Time to cover objective stuff to fix up this doc a bit

Common Terms

Jack: A small number of consecutive notes in the same column, usually performed at a faster pace compared to surrounding notes.


A mini-jack is a small number of consecutive notes (2/3), a jack is any number (above 1) of consecutive notes (all minijacks are jacks but not all jacks are minijacks). This needs fixing because of

Stream: A constant supply of notes with the same intervals that do not repeat to create a mini-jack.


There is no definition of a mini-jack in this document.

Long note: A note that must be held and released within a precise timing window.


Should be noted that this can also be referred to as an LN.

Release: The end of a long note which must be released within a certain timing 1.1window to score the entirety of the note properly.


Why is there a random 1.1 here?

Inverse: A type of pattern that replaces all regular notes with long notes in a given section. Typically enough long notes to cover a majority of the playfield with holds.


Holds are long notes so I don't know why two different terms are being used here, definitely since holds aren't defined in this document either.

Difficulty Specific: Easy: Guidelines

Long notes across all columns should have a minimum spacing of 1/1 beats from the time it is first pressed.
Long notes at the same column should have a minimum spacing of 2/1 beats from the time it is first pressed. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a player to keep up with the release timings.


This is unclear on what it's trying to define, is it saying that LNs should have a length of 1/1 or that there should be a gap of 1/1 between LNs? It seems so confusing since it refers to the start of an LN and not the end. What is the intent here? This problem also exists in the normal section.

Difficulty Specific: Normal: Guidelines

Long notes across all columns must have a minimum spacing of 1/2 beats from the first press. Lower spacing would make the patterns hard for a normal player to keep up with the release timings.**


Again with the random symbols that don't need to be there.
Last edited by Hydria , edited 1 time in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoayu
assume most of these are because i suck at copy pasting XD
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I think there should be some sort of guidelines if the Normal difficulty is the lowest difficulty in the set, perhaps about long streams of 1/2 notes?
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
180 bpm reference for RC is kinda high. Would work better with 160 imo where 200+ would have less leniency in terms of consecutive 1/2 to 1/4ths for lower end difficulties
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I would assume the base BPM to be 175bpm.
Kawawa
Kawawa
well about this.
Difficulty Specific
Difficulty-specific rules and guidelines do only apply to the difficulty level they are listed for and therefore do not apply to every osu!mania difficulty. Rhythm related guidelines apply to approximately 180 BPM maps. If your song is drastically faster or slower, some variables might be different. Apply reasonable judgement in these cases.
160 is better imo. although the average has up since there are many 4K speed cores, but we have to think about the average genre and all keys.

Difficulty Specific
Normal
Long streams of 1/2 notes should only be limited to 16 notes as these can become too physically demanding for players at this level. A way to alleviate that would be adding 1/1 breaks so players can have an easier gameplay experience.
Hard
Avoid 1/4 streams made of more than 16 notes. These can be too physically demanding for players of this level
Insane
Avoid 1/8 streams made of more than 8 notes. Streams of this type of snap are harder to pull off than snaps at the lower end, and as such should only be used if the song warrants it.
It's cool idea for each players but don't think why It needs to be limited by "number"
here I know the bringing up ranked map is not valid, nevertheless many ranked maps are already used over 16 note in 1/2th.
as an example, for the normal :: http://puu.sh/AP04b/1ea01ff289.jpg
It's a part of the touch the angel, yeah it already exceeds over 16 notes as we can see.
but I don't think it is unfair something and nothing wrong the music. It's as whole working well without problem.

what I mean, even If the rhythm really needs to be repeated in 1/2 by structure of the song, we should stop after 16 notes?
It can lead be a problem of potential quality due to change of weird rhythm in my opinion.
so the map naturally should focus on providing a rest rather than artificially creating a rest.
Garalulu
936 posts
Joined March 2011
Garalulu
agreed with kawawa. Setting the limitation of note amount is little bit weird. It's more like focusing on mapping literally, not structure of the song.

what I mean, even If the rhythm really needs to be repeated in 1/2 by structure of the song, we should stop after 16 notes?
It can lead be a problem of potential quality due to change of weird rhythm in my opinion.
so the map naturally should focus on providing a rest rather than artificially creating a rest.
We should consider the concept of song more, counting the streams makes weird the end of stream and the artificial rest time. Little bit exaggerated, It can even makes the each maps look same thing if they are same bpm.

I don't think that limitation is really needed. It just disallow the way of various patterning and makes the mapper get preconception before mapping, because it is written by RC and it means "you shouldn't do it basically" even though it's guideline and it means we don't have to follow it.

The limitation of stream amount shouldn't be placed on RC, rule or guideline wherever tho, it's pretty big regulation.
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
EDIT: o it’s a guideline w/e then lmfao

wew prolly glanced over the note hard caps

setting those is kinda eh

since the intention of these is to avoid unnecessary or really huge diffspikes in charts. Accounting for how difficult the chart is overall should be the better move
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
No inverse patterns is a rule on hard diff but not normal and easy?
Also can common terms be alphabetically sorted?
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Regarding the note limitations in difficulties, it is a guideline, but what we hoped to achieve with them is that mappers will be able to insert a small rest (like one beat) in between long 1/2 streams when natural in order to avoid straining the player too much, and to give them a checkpoint of sorts if they're starting to become overwhelmed by all the notes. This can be changed though to be more dependent on musical phrasing as opposed to a hard limitation of a certain number of notes though.
Kawawa
Kawawa
This is a guideline for new mappers so I thought that it will be a mindblock to them in the process of map. since there was an exact setting.
so thought it might be better to explain the other way rather than number setting. anyway seems what we hope is the same.
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
I agree it would be better to phrase it like "after x/1 of continuous [1/2] mapping, include a rest moment of at least X length"
DDMythical
DDMythical
ugh

there are many flaws in this current draft of RC. most of which stem from the fact that this RC tries to awkwardly double up as an introductory charting-guide alongside an objective set of rules for what is rankable or not. in my opinion, it should not cover explicits in its charting guide segements, but rather explain the implicits around charting with regards to overarching techniques that are almost entirely colloquially accepted by the charting community (such as intensity congruency, or sound representation.) As of now, some of the things written in RC are incorrectly advising people on how to chart, and forcing unnecessary restrictions on charts.

bpm
why is 180bpm picked as the standard for what measures are determined as too difficult for the player at any given level, if anything, pick 150 - it divides much better into certain bpms which are common at certain difficulty levels:
1/4 = 150
1/6 = 200
1/8 = 300
1/12 = 400
as opposed to:
1/4 = 180
1/6 = 270
1/8 = 360
1/12 = 540
which are significantly more illogical.


rules and sv

Slider velocity changes that alter the scrolling speed of the map are disallowed. An exception to this rule would be creating slider velocity changes to unify the scroll speed in BPM-variable maps. Scroll normalization is mandatory and must be done in maps with variable BPM.

would https://osu.ppy.sh/s/704987 be regarded as an exception to this rule? This should not be a rule; it should be a guideline, and, if that, this presumes a congruency between physical difficulty (what star rating assesses, and determines whether the difficulty is an easy/normal/whatever) and visual/mental difficulty, with regards to svs. There is no major correlation between these two factors. A chart that is harder physically does not mean it is better suited for harsher svs than a chart physically lighter. In fact, it's the complete opposite. Looking at some of the most popular harsh sv charts in the game (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/572000 - Coinage
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/723624 - Back Of The Yards
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/108708 - dEKA
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591171 - Groundhog
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/415946 - Chloroplast Skin
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/673208 - Cycles)
you can see that most, if not all of them, fall around a low difficulty range relative to the ability necessary to learn the SVs. As such, no explicit rule should be included which dictates congruency between physical ability and SVs, I don't disagree with it being a guideline, but even-so, it's presented in a sense which implies that as your chart is harder physically, it becomes better to use harsher svs, when, in reality, it is the complete converse. this is harmful to new charters.


snap guidelines

these are arbitrary and an extremely stupid way to dictate what is expected of players around x skill level. The best way to do this would involve looking at the rough patternical levels at x skill level, and dictating what is regarded as "too difficult" for players at that skill level.
if anything, this should entirely be up to bn discretion for what constitutes as too difficult for a difficulty level, but hey.

Note snappings of 1/6 and above should not be used. This is to make sure beginner players start off with an easy experience in the game.


what is absurd about this, is that absolutely no time frame (or note frame) is dictated. A 1/6 in isolation is absolutely no harder than a 1/1 in isolation, or a 1/16th in isolation, or a 1/10000 in isolation; context is extremely important with regards to difficulty as, on their own, every note is equal in physical difficulty.

What is not accounted here, at all, is patterning. Even if you were to include a time-frame for difficulty (lets say, 10 notes) the difference between a 1/6 10 note 2h trill and a 1/6 10 note 1h trill is huge, and this rule has absolutely no dictation between the two. What you'd need to do for this rule to make any sense, is to gather data on all common patterns, and assess what BPM they are roughly playable by by a player at this skill level.

I would say, above anything, that common sense, and the dictation of the BNG should decide what is playable, roughly, for players at whatever skill level.

There is almost no way to list what is expected from players at any given skill level due to the huge variation in patterning that can be brought. 250bpm jumpstream for just 1 measure can range from, say, 7dan to luminal; WITH NO SPECIFICITY TO PATTERNING, A RULE BASED ON WHAT SPEED IS EXPECTED FROM PLAYERS AT ANY GIVEN SKILL LEVEL IS, AT BEST, A SHOT IN THE DARK.

as such this rule should be removed; no specification on what snaps are or are not okay for players at any given skill level should be given, as, if anything, it would be almost entirely incorrect as it doesn't account for technical or physical difficulty. it is an arbitrary number - is 1/4 dense chordjacking okay when 1/6 streams are not? I believe almost everyone able to competently play would agree that a 1/6 stream is significantly easier than 1/4 dense chordjacking at the same bpm, yet this guideline dictates that the former is harder than the latter.

So, what should be done instead? Note that it is near-impossible (if not) to truly dictate what is capable by players at a given difficulty level. Even moreso, when the element dicating what is in which skill level is SR, which is absurdly flawed, and should not even be used as a metric for determining anything.

I suggest that, instead of providing objectivity in what BPM is playable, or not playable, by players at a given level (even with regards to patterns), you should explain the difficulty of patterning in the RC; explain concepts such as the difficulty of jacks, as they increase in length, they do not increase linearly but instead exponentially, and as such it should be understood that a chart utilising 2 note long jacks (minijacks) should not suddenly change into 3, or 4 note long jacks, as these are significantly more difficult, despite not being much of a change in patterning. Conveying this to charters reading RC will provide (atleast to some extent) a more competent understanding of the structure of patterning in comparison to other patterns at the same BPM.

Furthermore, explaining that 1H trills are more difficult than 2H trills, because 1H trilling increases in difficulty much faster than 2H trills (300bpm 2H trills are doable by most players at 9/10dan level; 300bpm 1H trills are beyond the peak of any top-tier player for any sustained period of time.) Would be significantly more useful than what is provided now. Then, a rough bpm (WITH LENIENCY) can be provided for each pattern, and then atleast, to some extent, a difficulty level acceptable for each difficulty can be determined.
As example:
Hard (As hard constitutes for 1st dan->4th dan)
Streams should be between 180bpm-230bpm, taking the length of a measure as baseline. Leniency should then be taken dependant on the length of the stream, longer streams increase the difficulty in stamina, so they should be slower for the same difficulty to apply (a 250 stream extended for a longer period of time would stretch into low/mid-insane) and vice versa. The same leniency should be applied to the technicality of patterns, the more technically challenging a pattern is, the slower it needs to be to exert the same overall difficulty, and vice versa. This leniency should be entirely down to the judgement of the bng.

With this; a basic understanding of difficulty can be presented in the RC.
(if you'd like more numbers for this, i can work them out roughly over the week, but you need to understand that SR is complete garbage, and that hard-level chordjacks may rate a chart as insane, and extra-level longjacks may rate a chart as hard. mania sr is unusably trash.)


long term
Long term slider velocity changes should be in between 0.??x and 1.??x.

I also vehemently disagree with the nature of this rule - the numbers selected for these (0.90/1.05 for normal; 0.75/1.10 for hard; 0.5/1.10 for insane and extra) are completely arbitrary and make almost no consistent sense. Considering the gimmicky nature of SV usage and how it applies over other skillsets, to limit long-standing sv usage which may be contextually acceptable with the concept of the chart is absolutely absurd in my opinion. Like I say above, this takes the physical difficulty of a chart and compares it to the difficulty of the SVs - there are plenty of difficult SV charts that are not physically demanding; the physical aspects of a chart as assessed by SR should have absolutely nothing to do with what SVs are acceptable in your chart, ironically enough, as the physical difficulty of your chart increases. If anything, your SVs should get less effective on the song so as not to overwhelm the player or obscure other concepts at play - but this is tangential.


advanced
Inverse patterns must not be used. They are a very advanced type of pattern and that they require a lot of coordination to properly execute it.

the lack of explanation with regards to what constitutes an "advanced pattern" is painful here. What it should refer to, is to the technicality of a pattern - inverse patterns are technically complex, and, as such, are a higher difficulty than most patterns at the same bpm. This goes for OHTrills, polyrhythms, etc. which are technical. Why this rule is only presented in hard is beyond me, as, logically, it should apply to normal and easy inherently anyway but w/e.
Inverse patterns are also not the only type of "advanced pattern"; all it's specifying is that this pattern is more difficult than other patterns at the same bpm. as such, 50bpm inverse in a 200bpm stream chart is perfectly okay, because it is *that* much slower, the added technicality does not create an unfair difficulty spike. This rule is simply incorrectly labelling technical patterns and not accounting for difficulty properly.


im tired of writing but yeah basically most of what is written in this is actively detrimental to newer charters reading it, as it's actively teaching and conveying concepts that simply are not correct - or undermining/ignoring important concepts (notably with regards to difficulty).
Last edited by DDMythical , edited 1 time in total.
mijkolsmith
297 posts
Joined April 2014
mijkolsmith
Good write up. I especially agree with the snap guidelines, that is unnecessary criteria which doesn't make sense for a lot of maps. I think a better example to show this is the difference between 100 bpm 1/6 and 200 bpm 1/4 instead of the trills.
Protastic101
1,170 posts
Joined July 2015
Protastic101
Ok, forgot to lock the thread. I'll address DD's points soon with an edit to this post, but for now, we'll revise the RC to reflect the feedback given here.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Okoayu
@Protastic: Anything happening over here or can I archive this by virtue of being dead?
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
mania is officially unrankable

(not really but this thread isn't needed anymore)
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