Regarding B1rd's argument and nao's argument, I have to actually agree.
"When exactly did we decide that this is a bad thing"
When it began affecting the diversity of mapping.
"Some people seem to share the delusion that the biggest reason why the meta shifted towards simple jumpy patterns is that pp gave people the "wrong" incentives. What even is a "wrong incentive?""
The "wrong incentive" is the large amount of PP given to players. Players like the pp rewarded, so they continue to play the map until they get the largest amount of PP possible in that said map. As long as they're getting recognition, most mappers (Not all) will continue to map "pp maps" because people actually play it. Of course, other mappers will follow, just to get recognition for their maps, or just for the "memes." Now, the bad side isn't the players or the mappers, but the PP. It is what drives the players to play the map, in turn the mapper wants to map what players want to play. Its just one large continuous loop, hence the continued phrase of "pp is ruining mapping."
A good example of this is the infamous hai tai map. A lot of negative comments, Not only mappers but players too. The map is honestly just terrible, so how did it end up in top 5 most played maps within 24 hours for a long period of time? Because the pp rewarded drives the players to play the map constantly, just to get that PP. And when other mappers see that other mapper's creation are getting attention, they'll want to follow that too. Why do you think theres an issue in the diversity of mapping.
"People actually seek out simple jumpy maps even when they are removed from pp."
So, what about the maps that have the "exact same formula?" The ones that have no uniqueness, boring. Will people come back to those too? You can best assume that players have no drive (being pp) to play the maps and just forget about it. You're misunderstanding jump maps for "generic pp maps."
"pp was never the problem, the problem is you. You don't care enough about what people enjoy."
That IS the issue, players care about pp, which is why mappers CONTINUED to map "generic pp maps."
Deny it as much as you want, it all comes down to the issue with PPv2.
This is basically it. Of course, there are cases where jump maps are actually fun, like the Roses are red map, but now-a-days its just boring, or "generic," patterns with large jumps in the chorus for the PP. Players don't appreciate the map, they appreciate the large amount of pp rewarded, which then gives the mapper the blind vision of "Oh, they like my maps? Well, I'll just map more of it." At this point is where the issue pops up.Naotoshi wrote:
It's completely possible to map a generic pop song in a way that doesn't abuse sharp angles and comfortable movement and extreme rhythm simplification and low SV and giant 5 second diffspikes.
People just don't, they map it like I said, and got popular for it. So everyone else tried the same thing and now 90% of maps are the exact same formula with no uniqueness, all because the PP system rewards the maps with easy flow and rhythm and retarded high spacing in one part of the map.
"When exactly did we decide that this is a bad thing"
When it began affecting the diversity of mapping.
"Some people seem to share the delusion that the biggest reason why the meta shifted towards simple jumpy patterns is that pp gave people the "wrong" incentives. What even is a "wrong incentive?""
The "wrong incentive" is the large amount of PP given to players. Players like the pp rewarded, so they continue to play the map until they get the largest amount of PP possible in that said map. As long as they're getting recognition, most mappers (Not all) will continue to map "pp maps" because people actually play it. Of course, other mappers will follow, just to get recognition for their maps, or just for the "memes." Now, the bad side isn't the players or the mappers, but the PP. It is what drives the players to play the map, in turn the mapper wants to map what players want to play. Its just one large continuous loop, hence the continued phrase of "pp is ruining mapping."
A good example of this is the infamous hai tai map. A lot of negative comments, Not only mappers but players too. The map is honestly just terrible, so how did it end up in top 5 most played maps within 24 hours for a long period of time? Because the pp rewarded drives the players to play the map constantly, just to get that PP. And when other mappers see that other mapper's creation are getting attention, they'll want to follow that too. Why do you think theres an issue in the diversity of mapping.
"People actually seek out simple jumpy maps even when they are removed from pp."
So, what about the maps that have the "exact same formula?" The ones that have no uniqueness, boring. Will people come back to those too? You can best assume that players have no drive (being pp) to play the maps and just forget about it. You're misunderstanding jump maps for "generic pp maps."
"pp was never the problem, the problem is you. You don't care enough about what people enjoy."
That IS the issue, players care about pp, which is why mappers CONTINUED to map "generic pp maps."
Deny it as much as you want, it all comes down to the issue with PPv2.