THIS IS EXTREMELY TL:DR. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.B1rd wrote:
incoherent logical spaghetti
Oh, man, you actually took up my challenge and tried to do it. Truly
comedy gold.
Strap in to your seats everyone, and grab some popcorn because this is going to be a hell of a ride.
Before we get to that, I need to refute this irritatingly persistent criticism of myself lest it stick and continue to malign me:
B1rd wrote:
Why do you think that I was derogatory towards you when you try to imply that people having a discussion about criticisms of PPv2 have the same underlying psychology as white supremacists? Your pathology of a social justice warrior sticks out like a sore thumb, it's laughable to think your "ideas" could be constructive in any way.
First, since you are apparently incapable of understanding nuance of any kind, it's not
what you're critiquing, but
why and
how you're doing it. I don't see how pointing out the underlying ad hominem fallacy and insecurity that drives those groups, and relating it to your argument against art, is unreasonable when you, specifically, say things like this:
B1rd wrote:
your beloved plebs aren't always the most enlightened and discerning in whatever behaviour they choose to partake in
B1rd wrote:
a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well
B1rd wrote:
people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality
Yes, if I like things you don't like, I am
literally trash. Basically, you might say, sub-human? Definitely not Nazi-style thinking in any way.
It's worth noting I made my assertion before you even posted, so it's a little amusing to me that you essentially pwalked right into my assertion.
Second, you did not actually address my argument in any way.
You see this? You're at the third rung at best. My argument is an address of how you are approaching the issue and why it's wrong on a fundamental level, even if you are being too superficial (intentionally or not) to understand it. Where is that on the chart again?
Third, if you knew me, you would know that the idea of me, personally, being an SJW is ridiculous.
This is me making fun of a radical feminist yesterday. I've been a 4chan user for ten years, I couldn't give less of a shit about social justice specifically when there are people from all walks of life that need taking down a notch.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Now, let's get to breaking down the meat of your argument, which is one of the most absolutely cringe worthy things I have ever read on this forum.
B1rd wrote:
Now, what are these evil ideas that I have that are so problematic? Well, that's the idea that good is intrinsically good and bad is intrinsically bad. Good could roughly be defined as pleasure - not necessarily pleasure of the hedonistic kind but the kind that is more wholesome - and bad could be defined as pain. Of course you could do a lot more to elaborate on those definitions but simplified terms will do for the sake of the argument. Once you have accepted that simple premise you can use those values to make value judgements of deeds and entities and infer morality. And you really can't dispute that premise, it doesn't matter what your beliefs or values are, no one likes pain and being the recipient of unnecessary suffering. Thus, we can make the conclusion that some emotions and values are superior to others. Those values which are beneficial to yourself and society are good, and vice versa.
Nobody likes pain, therefore pain is objectively bad, and so is anything that causes it.
http://existentialcomics.com/comic/42B1rd wrote:
Now you might say that "interpretation of music is subjective", and it is to a certain degree, but not infinitely so like you seem to imply. There is only a finite amount of plausible interpretations of a given piece of art, and in the case of music, those variables are things like the harmony and melody, speed and intensity, complexity, the effort and skill required to produce, the historical and cultural context, et cetera. Classical music is more complex, it has more variation in the melodies that compliment each other in an overarching structure. It takes great talent, skill, discipline and sacrifice to create; composers and musicians often dedicate their whole lives to creating music that others will love.
Absolutely none of the traits you have just listed have anything to do with the value of a piece of music. According to you,
this is pretty much the best piece of music ever made. Pack it up and go home Beethoven, some random guy on YouTube has solved music.
B1rd wrote:
And due to the aforementioned traits, it inspires different emotions than that of Justin Bieber's music: it inspires admiration of the beauty of the world and the desire to strive to the ideal of human greatness; that is, spending your whole life doing something truly worthwhile to create something of value to your fellow man. Because classical music is an embodiment of that - it's a reveling of beauty and a celebration of humanity. The same cannot be said about Justin Bieber's music, which inspires vapid teenage girls to worship a horrible role model. It doesn't take great skill to create or produce, often songs like this aren't even written by the artists who supposedly wrote it, the music is all electronically generated according to some general algorithms, and the vocalist is assisted with autotune. Then it is mass-marketed to the masses to ensure popularity. I could elaborate a lot more on what values and emotions different kinds of music invoke, but suffice it to say, Vivaldi's Four Seasons inspire more noble, better, and more worthwhile values than Justin Bieber's songs
A complete and total fail. The purpose of music, and art in general, is to communicate emotion. You may feel different emotions from the same piece of art depending on the perspective you see it at.
The
creation of good music may be inspired by constructive virtues, but that does not mean that those virtues create good music, or that good music only come from these virtues. The worst kind of art is not the art that makes you feel bad, but the kind of art that is so totally devoid of resonance that it makes you feel nothing. Something can be so bad, it's good!
I have the interesting experience of being good friends with a large group of highly talented musicians, and it is mind blowing some of the music they just shit out as random audio doodles. Some of the best music I have heard in my entire life has been made in the span of a few hours at a whim. With that experience, to me, the assertion that good music only comes from self-sacrifice and hard work is just pure bullshit. Good music comes from the invisible brilliancy of having just the right perspective to communicate a concept.
https://imgur.com/uMjPV5VB1rd wrote:
Unlike what you say, I don't have an motivations of "elitism" or a desire to elevate myself over other people.
I'm not an elitist, but here I am telling you that everything you think you like is actually shit, and you are shit for liking it. Sure.
B1rd wrote:
My motivation stems from my love of beauty, of which people like you say don't exist, or would say that a turd has more beauty than a rose if enough people thought that. No, I'd definitely say that post-modernists like you have done far more harm to our society than people like me.
How fascinating that you can claim to hate something you have a poor understanding of. Postmodernism is not about the notion that quality is derived from popularity, postmodernism is about the idea that all experiences are fundamentally equal, whether they are good or bad. Postmodernism does not say that nothing is beautiful, postmodernism says beauty is subjective, not objective, and that there is beauty in everything, if you look at it from the right viewpoint. This is pretty much the stance that people take when they say that old maps are not inherently bad maps.
If you want to learn what postmodernism actually is, watch this. Skip to 8:48 if you are boring.
I don't even know how to react to your assertion that "postmodernists have done harm to society" considering what a throwaway comment it is, being incredibly vague and completely unsupported by evidence or example. Who even knows what that was supposed to mean.
B1rd wrote:
It's amazing what intellectual sinkholes one can find themselves in when they let their bigotry and arrogance get in the way of truth and reasoning.
The absolute lack of self awareness is truly ironic, I know.
You know what would be really
amazing though, considering what a self-congratulatory slog that was to tear apart?