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posted


Take a good hard look, because this is the enemy. Don't you ever forget...



With Cookie Monster getting ranked, I've been hearing a lot about farm maps being bad recently, so why don't we stop for a second and look at this troubling state of affairs?

Ephemeral wrote:

We've seen widespread refinement of the 'modern' beatmapping style to what is arguably approaching its absolute limits. Quality has no longer become synonymous with actual quality, but instead a strict adherence to a particular mapping style that is thoroughly encouraged by a number of factors - familiarity and pp both among them.

ProfessionalBox wrote:

As long as current pp system is in place there is no actual incentive to try being innovative and branch out to map more unique and varied song categories/mapping techniques but instead grab more "fame" and "recognition" in the community by mapping maps for the masses to play and grind.
Let's summarize!
  1. Mappers care most about popularity
  2. "The masses" care most about ranks
  3. The easiest way to get popularity is to appeal to "the masses", aka mapping pp-maps
  4. This is bad

The first 3 points are a pretty obvious, but wait a second! When exactly did we decide that this is a bad thing?


Some people seem to share the delusion that the biggest reason why the meta shifted towards simple jumpy patterns is that pp gave people the "wrong" incentives. What even is a "wrong incentive?" Can they actually back this claim up? Or is it just a belief they want it to be true because they think that people should and would appreciate their "artistry" more if only it wasn't for that damn ppv2?


Let me ask you a question, what do you expect to happen if pp was removed tomorrow, what maps would be in high demand?
Well, let me give it to you straight. What was the map that the got most votes by a large margin when THE COMMUNITY voted on loved maps the for first time?



That's right, a "bad, un-imaginative and boring" jumpy map. Oops!


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


Did it ever occur to any of you that pp-mapping could also be in high demand because it is intrinsically fun to play?

Panda Eyes & Teminite - Highscore has been in the top10 or top5 most played maps for what.. a year now? Did you ever notice that it's actually not a pp-map? It's 4 minutes long, damn it. The reason why it's popular is not that you can easily rank up with it, it's because to most players, simple jumpy patterns and nice generic music are more fun than gimmicky borderline unplayable slider gimmicks.



But it's a boring map and people only play it for pp, right?



People actually seek out simple jumpy maps even when they are removed from pp.
Big surprise. Who would have thought that stuff you can read is more fun than stuff you can not read? Who would have thought that hitting jumps feels satisfying?
That's madness Railey, next thing you'll tell me that the majority of the playerbase isn't actually in the top10.000.





I know you're all really serious about fixing the current state of things, but shouldn't you understand where we're at before you try and fix things?

You're all out of touch, THAT'S the thing that needs the most "fixing" at the moment. Most players don't give a shit about the history of mapping, gimmicks or artistry. You just need to go in-game once and it becomes abundantly obvious.



Any takers for old AR8-style maps or Hollow Wings? Gimmick-lobby? "I'm just here to look at art"-lobby? No?


What do all these players have in common? They enjoy the simple stuff.
Any thoughts about how to serve all these people, whose existence you just overlooked?

"we need more hard maps and more variety"
"there seems to be an overall agreement that there is not enough diversity in the ranked beatmap section"


yeah sure, if you ask all your mapping-community buddies. Now excuse me, I'm off playing that old Miiro-set#6. These maps are actually fun as hell. I wish there'd be more of them, and I mean that.

Actually fuck all of that, who cares about the 10.000 people that enjoy pp-jumps and ranks, as long as Azer likes my map I've done a good job.

Hey, at least you're being honest now! Time to put that map of yours in a museum.


ProfessionalBox wrote:

I know that this turned out to be more of a rant against why pp is ruining mapping but essentially I feel like this is something that needs to be addressed before mapping can turn a new leaf and start heading towards another direction.
ProfessionalBox, I really hate to break it to you. You're living in a bubble. It's time to wake up before you and your buddies accidentally suffocate, because you are so busy vocally agreeing with one another that you forget to breathe.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________




But it gets worse, far worse.

Here we have osu's most popular mapper telling people that the most important quality of a map isn't, in fact, how much you enjoy it.



I'm busy reflecting songs, don't ask me questions about enjoyment



This is what's wrong with mapping: Some people think that the player's enjoyment of the game is not the thing that's central to mapping. The single most important thing isn't whether you like the map or not, it's whether or not the map satisfies rigid yet ill-defined artistic standards. And people wonder why it took 71 years to get Tomei Elegy through the ranking-process, even though the community was practically begging for the map to get ranked already.


"jumpy maps are bad, unimaginative and boring!"
"pp only invites players to farm, playing shit maps while ignoring all the good maps out there!"
"pp killed mapping!"



Can I just say that I love playing High Free Spirits and other TV-sized farm maps? The times where I farmed AR8+DT to get up to 4000 pp were the best times I've ever had?
No, that's not what you should be enjoying, these are pp-maps which means that they are bad. Now play Tengaku 5 more times, it'll teach you to appreciate what's truly valuable.


If you really think that pp ruined mapping, let me set you straight:
pp was never the problem, the problem is you. You don't care enough about what people enjoy.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________



My post was sparked by this thread, but the topics discussed there differ from the topics I touched on here. As you can tell, I'm mostly concerned about the divide between mappers and the playerbase. Quotes were taken from the linked thread. That is all.
posted
Good read.

Might sound circle jerky but I've always question people who thinks pp is ruining mapping: what if pp never existed? Does that still make mildly challenging jump maps bad? I think a very good example is ame to asphalt, it is considered pp due to the huge diff spike at the end, but it was ranked before the current pp system is in place, so as the player base re discover this "pp map" they just bash the mapper for blatant pp mapping when the pp system was not yet in place, so people like pp mapping before it was even pp mapping

But as a mapper I would still agree on pishi's view point on focusing on representation rather than player enjoyment, the video itself explained that the mapper's perspective sometimes includes player's enjoyment, they are not mutually exclusive so I don't think that's the end of the world for pp mapping. For example I personally find myself to be able to be immerse in the music if it's more visually stimulating, hence I make maps that focus on visuals. There are hundreds of mappers out there who will map the 7th miiro for you so I'm not worried about that.

But the lack of variety this year is concerning, it's either retardedly unimaginative or retardedly complex, there's no middle ground, but that would be a completely different topic
posted
Honestly everything too much will be a bad thing: let it be boring map, let it be fun map, there needs to be a balance between both or people will get too tired of it eventually.
But as people say, 2017 has too muh, "p""p" map would ppl say, and its getting a bit out of balance.
But nobody cares, right?
In fact I think theres just too much of them recently that ppl start getting used to it and doesnt give a fuck.
is pp mapping a problem thou?
If the community likes it, then it'll be how it is.
posted

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Good read.

Might sound circle jerky but I've always question people who thinks pp is ruining mapping: what if pp never existed? Does that still make mildly challenging jump maps bad? I think a very good example is ame to asphalt, it is considered pp due to the huge diff spike at the end, but it was ranked before the current pp system is in place, so as the player base re discover this "pp map" they just bash the mapper for blatant pp mapping when the pp system was not yet in place, so people like pp mapping before it was even pp mapping

But as a mapper I would still agree on pishi's view point on focusing on representation rather than player enjoyment, the video itself explained that the mapper's perspective sometimes includes player's enjoyment, they are not mutually exclusive so I don't think that's the end of the world for pp mapping. For example I personally find myself to be able to be immerse in the music if it's more visually stimulating, hence I make maps that focus on visuals. There are hundreds of mappers out there who will map the 7th miiro for you so I'm not worried about that.

But the lack of variety this year is concerning, it's either retardedly unimaginative or retardedly complex, there's no middle ground, but that would be a completely different topic
Pishi is one of the few A-grade mapping experts that this community has to offer, the quality of his videos just like the pace at which he puts them out are superb, knowing no equal.

It's exactly because of this, that we have to scrutinize him more than anyone else.

Take the fun vs. good video, for example. Most of what he says is correct as far as I can tell, and yet he's supplanted his technical correctness with some outrageous statements, getting away with it because they are hard to notice among all the other brilliant points that the video makes. But trust me when I say that there is something seriously wrong here. This is the final statement from the video, the one he wanted to emphasize which is why he put it at the end (and I quote):



"When people claim that certain maps are good because they're fun, or certain maps are bad because they're not fun, it makes me think that certain players don't really see what a map is beyond a platform to click circles."

And this is where everything goes terribly wrong. Pishi seems to be under the impression that players should, in fact, see a map as more than just a platform to click circles! How did he come to that conclusion? It's the artist within him that wants people to think of maps as more than... being part of the game that is meant to be played. When the players don't do that, he forces out a distinction between fun and good, which while at times being reasonably founded, at other times also marks maps like call me it (which is technically flawless, in the sense of timing etc.) as "bad". Even though call me it is super popular and technically flawless!

But no, people don't have to see the map as "more", and they certainly don't have to share the "mappers perspective". The mappers perspective is lost on the majority of the playerbase. The majority of the playerbase doesn't care about technicalities. They just want to play, that's why they are the playerbase.
This is exactly the disconnect between mappers and players that I've been talking about.

"The mappers perspective to be the best way to judge a map, because it takes into account all types of gameplay the players find fun, while also maintaining the purpose of a map in a rhythm game: To reflect a song."

Reflecting a song isn't the purpose of a map, the purpose follows its function, and its function is that it serves the player as a means to enjoy the game. It's simple really. Song-reflection is merely a byproduct of the main-function: The providing of fun, enjoyment.
The fact that he got this wrong really is concerning.


This mindset also has implications for the ranking-process, as QAT's tolerate "bad" (read: unreflective) maps less and less. Maybe things would change a bit if people focused more on the question of "is this fun to play", instead of wondering "does this actually reflect the song".


Now an even more interesting question would be: Why did he get away with making such a horrid statement? Maybe it's his voice. Maybe its the fact that his videos are otherwise excellent. Maybe it was too subtle. I DON'T KNOW.
posted
PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the pattern, change circles distance and timming to the music beats, move the pattern to a corner and add slidders between patterns. There you go, a PP map ratted 9/10 or 10/10 because people know the anime song and feel they are good players because they win PP playing it.
Meanwhile hard work maps like this die because they are not worth. Not easy PP = bullshitmap = delete. Instead support the mapper to make it ranked.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/502420
posted

Railey2 wrote:

And this is where everything goes terribly wrong. Pishi seems to be under the impression that players should, in fact, see a map as more than just a platform to click circles! How did he come to that conclusion? It's the artist within him that wants people to think of maps as more than... being part of the game that is meant to be played. When the players don't do that, he forces out a distinction between fun and good, which while at times being reasonably founded, at other times also marks maps like call me it (which is technically flawless, in the sense of timing etc.) as "bad". Even though call me it is super popular and technically flawless!
Vice versa, the players are under the impression that mappers who map for FREE, should comply to player's demand, FOR FREE is the problem here, the incentive is not there, you can make up stuff like satisfaction of social acceptance but that's a superficial reason.

So I would assume mappers take the "game developer" approach, make what they think is good, that of course includes ridiculous time wasting game like sheep similuator (fun maps), but ultimately you want to make something with quality, something well thought out (good maps), even successful rhythm games like deemo and voez does that, some players would completely disregard the thought put into both games, and still enjoy it, but it's probably safer to just assume players would take notice of all the visual and game design choices they made, enjoy it as a rhythm game, not a piano simiulator.

Pishifat could get away with it cause his mentality works, for the most part

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the pattern, change circles distance and timming to the music beats, move the pattern to a corner and add slidders between patterns. There you go, a PP map ratted 9/10 or 10/10 because people know the anime song and feel they are good players because they win PP playing it.
Meanwhile hard work maps like this die because they are not worth. Not easy PP = bullshitmap = delete. Instead support the mapper to make it ranked.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/502420
Go ahead and read the entire thing before replying, Railey wrote an entire thread to counter the pp = bad mapping mentality, you saying pp mapping is boring really adds nothing to the discussion

Also akali is a well respected mapper I don't know why you link his map
posted
my comment on a cookie-butter-choco-cookie play:



so i agree with you all in all. to me, personally, many pp farm maps are really fun to play. for example i love playing hitorigoto nomod. i already ss'ed it so there's no benefit for me in playing it. i still feel like it because i just enjoy it. even though i wouldn't say i don't enjoy technical maps either. all in all it's just subjective tastes and i can see how people only like technical maps or only like 'pp-farm maps'. i just enjoy them both personally.

oh and <3 for tengaku tho :x
posted
Agree almost completely with this. It's the same regardless of what gamemode you go to. CTB actively has a community of people who only want to play converts because they are more random and harder to play then the CTB specific maps which are considered "free PP"

Taiko has this community that bashes maps that use 1/6 saying it's intentionally trying to inflate SR for PP

Mania has this community that thinks that ranked maps should include more SV's so stuff isn't sightreadable
posted
We need to get rid of the mindset that pp maps are ruining this game for sure and the only people who play them are farmers, which is somehow a bad thing.
Miraizu is probably my favourite map because it's just fun with a lovely song.

But this thing is deeply rooted in the active community, from top players to rank 15k rlc and skystar fanboys with of course pp maps as their top plays.
Very convenient that most of their scores are on unranked maps.
They whole-heartedly believe that a map having ranked status somemehow affects it's quality for the worse.
I know im generalizing im sorry but it's kinda triggering.

All-in-all I'm pretty sure this is just elitism:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the patt....blablablablablabla
Looks like a copy pasta meme to me tbh.
It's kinda sad to see that it plagued into even low 5 digits.

But elitists are in every community, don't think we can do anything about it.
posted
Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING
posted
Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?

Let's go over some statements and pick apart your ill-reasoned arguments:

fun =/= good

If that's not the case, then does that mean that Justin Bieber's Baby is superior to Vivaldi's Four Seasons? Obviously not, and obviously intrinsic quality and value is not derived solely from how "popular" or "fun" it is.

ppv2 is does create bad incentives that detracts from the quality of mapping

You use Toumei Elegy as the foundation of your argument, not even taking into consideration it hasn't been #1 for a long time and the fact that it's a decent farm map. We could get in to a big discussion about what determines the "fun factor", but it's a moot point, the current #1 that has been in the top spot for a long time is a PP map, Hitorigo, and so are the large majority of all top-played maps. Maps that are extremely popular that aren't really good PP maps are the exception, not the rule.

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.
It is analogous to pop music vs classical: the pop song of the week may be more popular amongst the masses compared to classical music, however the classical compositions will always be regarded as great masterpieces throughout time and people who take the time to enjoy them can find great beauty and majesty. Compared to pop songs, which even those who listen to them will soon forget the ones they were listening to a month ago and move on to something else.
So the PPv2 definitely influence maps in a negative way.


Now that that's cleared up, you might ask the question, "why does it matter if maps are all PP maps, as long as people enjoy the game"? Well it might be all fine and good for you, a self-admitted PP farmed who takes pleasure primarily from getting more PP. But for those of us who actually are interested in map quality, playing ar8 or niche maps, maps that have fun and unique jump patterns or really any quality that makes them not suitable for PP farming have a hard time. Not only because mappers barely make those sorts of maps any more, but because it creates an environment that's hard to deviate from the norm and actually make maps to satisfy niche audiences.

And so, it's not our or mappers' problem for having preferences that deviate from the majority playerbase of PP farmers, the problem is you failing to address a real problem that is inhibiting mapping in osu!.


Yolshka wrote:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

PP mapping it's not even enjoyable to play. Just boring patterns on 80% of maps what you could say they all was made by the same guy. Not even different music styles. Some of them are obviously copy and paste of patterns from other maps. Rotate 30° the patt....blablablablablabla
Looks like a copy pasta meme to me tbh.
It's kinda sad to see that it plagued into even low 5 digits.

But elitists are in every community, don't think we can do anything about it.
Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
posted
B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.

You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?



It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?

You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi

mind = blown

Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.

Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.

Also

B1rd wrote:

Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?
holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.
posted
In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).

Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.

Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
posted
Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
posted

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.
posted

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Just to add, i don't care what you do about pp. But it's no sense there are masterpieces of mapping with 40 favourites and maps what with 89467896y06y45896 favourites becuause they rated the song and not the map itself. Nothing more to say.
look up the implications of subjectivity and come back

B1rd wrote:

It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line? You can't. You have to admit that the arbitrary criteria of PPV2 creates an incentive to create maps of inferior quality.
This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?
posted
TBH this entire argument on whether or not PP maps are good/fun is kind of dumb. People act like PP system is only flawed system and previous systems were perfect.

If score ranking were to return you'd see an influx of really long maps as more combo = more score

If map ranking were to return you'd see the same maps as you do now but people would be most incentivized to play popular maps and beat a ton of other players to gain rank on stuff that is easy. If you can place #1 on a hard/insane you'd get more ranks than getting #1 on an extra as more people play those difficulties.

If they were to change the PP formula to make technical slider maps give tons of PP I am sure people would start playing those.

Now the almost hipster thing going around is that peppy should remove the ranking system (which btw he won't as so many people would stop playing without the rank incentive)

So really ever being able to know what maps people would play (i.e. Fun/good maps) if everything was perfectly balanced is hard to say. So you can't use map popularity to determine if a map is good as many people will chase rank increases. That being said, I doubt even if PP/rankings were removed that things like hitorigoto or no title would suddenly stop being played.
posted
I currently have too many good maps and I am unable to play them all.

Plus so many good maps are coming out every day.

The state of mapping is excellent.
posted

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Two words I can use to explain todays mapping.

CIRCLE JERKING
now let me expand of my point...
posted
this entire thread has made my day, i needed this, thanks guys
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