Your claim that farm maps have a "fun factor" that is separate from the PP they give is completely unfounded. The proposition that the maps that are most fun to play also coincide perfectly with the farmiest maps is ridiculous. It's obvious that if you use a strict arbitrary formula to create "art", it won't be good, because the virtues of creative endeavors are, among other things, that they are the product of creative effort, they are expressive and unique. Farm maps are "fun" because people find getting PP is fun, it's not because of any intrinsic value of the maps, their popularity is based solely on the fact that they fulfill the practical function of giving people PP.Railey2 wrote:
B1rd, I have to thank you. I was worried that people would accuse me of strawmanning, but you blew all of these concerns out of the water.
You heard it here first: If you like pp-jumps you are one of these mindless pop-music consuming sheep, and if you like anything else you are a sophisticated gentleman that listens to Vivaldi's Four Seasons.
"Maybe it's elitism", he says. Well, I think I've got bad news for you... What do we call people again that are proud to listen to classical and think of everyone else as lower?
It is highly evident that these PP maps are nothing but the result mappers trying as hard as possible to create a map determined by the arbitrary criteria of PPv2. These maps always follow the same formula: easy for the most part, but with a few overmapped jumps at specific intervals, the jumps being at certain angles that makes them as easy as possible to hit. There is very little creativity involved in creating these formulaic maps. How on earth can you call maps like this "good", or say that they have great intrinsic value above something you would find coming of a factory line?
You know what else came from a figurative factory line?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... io_Vivaldi
mind = blown
Now that we've gone full circle, may I just point out that this ppv2 mapping formula is very popular with many people, not for the pp it gives but for how it plays?
Why exactly does them using a formula mean that the output will be "bad"? It's simple to read, simple to play, abides by all technical standards.. so what's the problem?
Read Yolshka's response, for example. Do you really wish to shit all over people like him, calling them plebs and whatnot? I certainly wouldn't shit over technical maps, hell I even like technical maps myself. I'm a big fan! I've been playing more unranked than ranked when I was still actively playing.
Yes, pp-maps are at the top of most played. But not just because they are "farmy". They are also FUN. To many many people. That's kind of the point of this thread: I dislike it when people completely devalue a meta without second thought.
Also
holy shit my dude, if it wasn't for the lovely sig I have, this would be my new sig right now.B1rd wrote:
Does it please you to be a contrarian against self-evident logic? Do you fancy yourself a defender of the proletariat against evil elitists with their intellectual arguments and reasoning?
You don't have any logical basis for your arguments, they seem to stem entirely from a feeling of disgruntlement over the proposition that your beloved plebs aren't always the most enlightened and discerning in whatever behaviour they choose to partake in. I've already explained why PPv2 is a bad influence on mapping - because there are actually people like me and others who don't like farm maps or care about farming PP, but are actually interested in good maps. We are the ones who suffer as a result.
And no, Vivaldi's compositions did not come from any figurative factory line, because there are more elements to factory-produced items than merely the amount produced, they are also uniform and take no creative effort to create. Exactly like farm maps. And for your information, I don't deride every single music genre, but a lot of pop music is indisputably trash, and the people who listen to it are most likely trash as well. Considering that music is to a large degree a reflection of your own soul, people who listen to superficial and shameless music are likely to exhibit the same traits in their own personality.
Here comes social justice warrior to the rescue, to explain to us all that having mapping standards - or standards in general - are, in fact, a result of patriarchy and white nationalists!Philosofikal wrote:
In my opinion, the entire attack against pp maps and the people who like them is driven almost entirely by the misdirected self-hatred of insecure elitists who, in the failure to meet their expectations of themselves, need to take down others who they view as not having "earned their place". The exact same bullshit mentality is what drives people to become incels and white nationalists (see image).
Nobody gets to objectively define what is fun or good, and if you think you do, you have a bad case of USI. Art is inherently subjective, no art has intrinsic value.Maybe it's elitism (yes, even 5 digit players are "elitist" these days apparently), or maybe it's just that they're right and you're wrong.
You heard it folks, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is not actually a masterpiece, any more than Justin Bieber's Baby is masterpiece, it's all up to the eye of the beholder :^)Philosofikal wrote:
Masterpieces to who? You? The moment where something goes from "I really like this" to "this is objectively good and only an idiot can't see its value" is the moment where you've taken a wrong turn straight up your own ass.
This p/6252521N0thingSpecial wrote:
This argument has been presented countless times but do you honestly think there's better way to represent a typical pop song using very predictable rhythm, melody and structure, like how creative can you get with a TV size anime song? is the inferior quality coming from the lack of complexity from the music or is the inferior quality coming from comparing to relatively similar songs with similar maps? And ultimately can the arbitrary criteria of PPv2 contribute to lost of quality if spacing flow and aesthetics quality are good enough for TV size anime maps?
I do believe that TV size anime maps could be a lot better. However I don't expect masterpieces to be created from generic songs, and I think there is a place in mapping for easy-to-play generic songs and maps. My problem doesn't come from the mere existence of a few farm-style or generic maps, but from PPv2's dominant and constricting influence over mapping in general.