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osu!mania ScoreV2 live!

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Yas
Found a small issue with SV2. When you initially play a file, you are given a different accuracy percent than you get after reloading osu.
Perhaps osu calculates sv2 mod scores with sv1 after a reload of osu.

This was the screenshot I took right after playing a file.
This was a screenshot of the same play, same score, but the accuracy is markedly higher.
Cuber

LastExceed wrote:

Now that a non-shiny 300 doesn't give 100% acc anymore, does that mean an SS in scoreV2 is as rare as a million in scoreV1 ? that imagination really doesn't feel right...


The only reason it doesn't feel right is because you are used to the current system. Having a judgement below the highest one negatively impact accuracy makes way more sense if you get out of the old frame of mind.

edit: confusing terminology
LastExceed

Cuber wrote:

The only reason it doesn't feel right is because you are used to the current system. Having a judgement below the highest one negatively impact accuracy makes way more sense if you get out of the old frame of mind.
edit: confusing terminology


I don't think thats the issue here. Im completely fine with all scores dropping little and S ranks becoming harder when scoreV2 goes live because i know that relatively it stays the same (I just need to get used to the new standards) but making a whole rank a once-in-a-lifetime experience is like turning it into an achievement. Imagine how the user profiles would look like, most people would have 0 SS ranks. Further more: mania is the mode with the easiest S ranks in osu!. With scoreV2 as it is it would get the hardest SS ranks which is quite a contrast.
Full Tablet
It's a good thing that non-shiny 300s do not give 100% accuracy. When they give 100%, the acc% value becomes an imprecise measure of accuracy at high accuracy levels (for example, there is a big difference between a SS with 1:3 300:300g ratio, and a SS with 1:10 300:300g ratio).

A better solution for the problem of SSs being too rare, is changing the requirements for a SS.
LastExceed

Full Tablet wrote:

It's a good thing that non-shiny 300s do not give 100% accuracy. When they give 100%, the acc% value becomes an imprecise measure of accuracy at high accuracy levels (for example, there is a big difference between a SS with 1:3 300:300g ratio, and a SS with 1:10 300:300g ratio).

A better solution for the problem of SSs being too rare, is changing the requirements for a SS.
Thats true. Time to bring the SSS rank here
Superluminal

LastExceed wrote:

FI + HD =/= FL
The big differences are the the fact that FL doesn't scale and that it covers the entire screen while the FI/HD shadow only covers the stage.

Redon wrote:

FI is a stupid idea and needs to be removed completely
FL and HD need to simply not influence score or pp at all because they are purely a question of player preference.
HD should be changed into a customizable lane cover that can either be static or grow in either direction, replacing both HD and FI.
There, I solved it all for you.
being the FI guy I feel like its my duty to say this: "DUN DELET FAD-EN!1!!11one!"
no srsly FI can be really fun, there's no reason to remove it.
I don't think you really understood either post very well, what I meant is that if you enabled both mods it should function the way FL does at the moment, and Redon specified that
HD should be changed into a customizable lane cover that can either be static or grow in either direction, replacing both HD and FI.
LastExceed

Tachyon wrote:

I don't think you really understood either post very well, what I meant is that if you enabled both mods it should function the way FL does at the moment, and Redon specified that
oh ok yeah that makes more sense.
HD should be changed into a customizable lane cover that can either be static or grow in either direction, replacing both HD and FI.
lane covers can already be skinned, there wouldn't be a need for a mod at all anymore. Also there are some people (like me) who actually like the fact that the shadow scales with combo, it just needs to be fixed so that the shadow size adapts to scrollspeed (or bpm if you play bpm scale)
Veracion
Wowow guys we're getting off-topic here, how did we get from "improve scorev2" to "SSS" and "remove FI" ?

How about we don't remove FI, why remove features when we already got so few. I'd rather see new mods instead.
And I think we already agreed that the 3 visual mods shouldn't give score rewards, because it wouldn't make any sense to do so.
Further on, if we are clear about them being only preferential, It would make sense to even enable them for Nomod maps in tournaments, even if it sounds a bit weird.

Now to the idea of an SSS, uhmm no.
This is still osu so the ranks should be the same for all modes.
changing the requirements for an SS
seems to be the best solution here.
Now there are two ways to go about this.
- either say that an SS isn't 100% anymore, and you can only have a certain percentage of normal 300s or something like that
- or make normal 300s be 100% again, which is like starting out from the old system again.
But yeah otherwise rip accuracy players, only gonna see SS on 1-2* maps then.
LastExceed
SS requirement should be "only 300 and 300r" just like it is right now
Veracion
or that ^
DarkDevil34
Why not just including a SSS for people who gets a perfect score a much better reward and the fact that the 300 now drop the accuracy is a bit of a problem cause it'll be a lot harder for players to have a decent accuracy
johnmedina999

Full Tablet wrote:

A better solution for the problem of SSs being too rare, is changing the requirements for a SS.
This. In DDR, you get an AAA (SS) for getting a score of 990,000 (or 99% accuracy). You get this score if you get all perfects (non-shiny 300s) but no marvelous (rainbow 300s). I know the system here isn't exactly like the one in DDR, as getting all non-shiny 300s will net you a 98.36%, but we should lower the SS requirement to something similar. As previously stated, maybe add an SSS for a perfect 100%.
Veracion
As i already said, it's highly unlikely that there will be an SSS added, since there is no equivalent in the other game modes.

But yes the SS criterias should be lowered, it's too difficult to get all max 300s. But what should the ratio required for an SS be ?
How about only 300s but a 1:5 300s to max ratio ? Does that sound rational ?
Cuber
Why are the grades even based on accuracy at all? If score is a measurement of performance in a map, obviously the grading should be based on that and that alone! All grades do in my mind anyways is provide goals that feel more real than reaching an arbitrary number. On this train of thought, PP should also be entirely based on song difficulty and score.

But this thread is about scorev2 lol. Personally, I think that scorev2 taking into account combo is bad (controversial I know). I much prefer the way that scorev1 tries to reward consistency: with a bonus score that fluctuates depending on how you're doing. I'd love to see that incorporated into scorev2. Personally, I think the best possible scoring system is a scoring system that has notes worth less or more, depending on how hard the map is at that point. This is probably unrealistic since this would need a good way to measure difficulty, and star rating has proven itself to not be very good, especially at harder maps. Still could be interesting to try IDK.
LastExceed
Grades in mania are based on acc because mania IS all about acc. And yes, adding combo to the score calculation is indeed a bad idea especially during tournaments where you only have 1 try. It's way too luck based.

I really understand the idea of rewarding consistency and i support it, but you simply can't do it map by map. It would only make pp farming frustrating like in standard...
abraker

Veracion wrote:

As i already said, it's highly unlikely that there will be an SSS added, since there is no equivalent in the other game modes.
Unless you know, I dev like me submits a pull request for it and there is a backing to support the idea.

Cuber wrote:

Why are the grades even based on accuracy at all? If score is a measurement of performance in a map, obviously the grading should be based on that and that alone! All grades do in my mind anyways is provide goals that feel more real than reaching an arbitrary number. On this train of thought, PP should also be entirely based on song difficulty and score.
Make score = acc. Score is arbitrary anyway, so it can be anything. Since it can be anything, make it accuracy. Problem solved.

LastExceed wrote:

. And yes, adding combo to the score calculation is indeed a bad idea especially during tournaments where you only have 1 try. It's way too luck based.
They added combo to tournaments because the results were to close for their comfort back in 2016. Their line of thought was to intensify any discrete imperfections a player may have in a play and to prevent a decided result mid map for better spectating experience. They failed to realize they needed to at least adjust the scale (zoom into a score range) so that more experienced player's scores had further distance between them rather than cherry pick misses. They also failed to realize that they cannot artificially create an undecided result mid map and have the score mirror the skill a player has. That is not skill but randomness.

The best way to go is how SM's new score system works, which is the system I proposed in my OD thread a while back. Have non discrete, continuous acc-score following a bell curve related to hit timing.

Ofc there is an argument about 65% FC VS 98% with a high miss-hit ratio, but there is no clear cut answer to which is more impressive.
Adri
I think that an SS is deserved when you don't get 200s AND that you have a proper ratio between 300 and 300g, like 1:10 or 1:8. Ah full 300g already has a value : 1 000 000 score and first rank. We don't need to put SS on top of it.

S < SS < 1 000 000
LastExceed

Adri wrote:

S < SS < 1 000 000
this part is obvious

Adri wrote:

I think that an SS is deserved when you don't get 200s AND that you have a proper ratio between 300 and 300g, like 1:10 or 1:8.
i disagree with that part, all 300 is hard enough imo
Adri
All 300 is hard but an SS should be the exception, a really good play. It doesn't have to be impossible tho, that is why we should have a ratio.
Cuber

LastExceed wrote:

Grades in mania are based on acc because mania IS all about acc. And yes, adding combo to the score calculation is indeed a bad idea especially during tournaments where you only have 1 try. It's way too luck based.

I really understand the idea of rewarding consistency and i support it, but you simply can't do it map by map. It would only make pp farming frustrating like in standard...
IMO mania is about being good at mania, and being good at mania should be represented by score. (I mention below why pure acc isn't a good representation of performance.)

Thinking about tournaments specifically doesn't really make sense to me. Why would a measure of performance differ on the situation around the play? I, like any reasonable person, am against a scoring system like standard for mania, that gravely punishes players for 1 mess up. The ideal scoring system (other than the unreasonable idea I mentioned in my earlier post) is a system that rewards consistency, but less than accuracy.

I'm confused by what you mean of figuring out consistency map by map. Could you please clarify?

abraker wrote:

Cuber wrote:

Why are the grades even based on accuracy at all? If score is a measurement of performance in a map, obviously the grading should be based on that and that alone! All grades do in my mind anyways is provide goals that feel more real than reaching an arbitrary number. On this train of thought, PP should also be entirely based on song difficulty and score.
Make score = acc. Score is arbitrary anyway, so it can be anything. Since it can be anything, make it accuracy. Problem solved.
Pure accuracy is not a good scoring system, because it does not reward consistency, which is an important part of skill. For example, an otherwise SS play with 2 misses at the same time is more impressive than an otherwise SS play with 2 misses spread out in the map. Obviously, in this example, the difference isn't huge, but still, score should represent performance on a map, and I stand with my position that pure accuracy is not the way to do this.



While writing this, I came up with a (probably stupid) idea. The reason I'm not a fan of using combo for consistency is because it is possible to mash through hard patterns and keep combo. Also, I don't think that 1 miss should affect score too much. I mentioned that I like the system of using bonus score. Why don't we make the worth of a note (at least in the consistency portion of score) equal (scaled appropiately obviously) to your current health? Obviously, changes to health would need to be done, to punish any judgement less than a 300. However, maybe with a bunch of tuning, this might work. I'm probably just an idiot tho lol
abraker

Cuber wrote:

Pure accuracy is not a good scoring system, because it does not reward consistency, which is an important part of skill. For example, an otherwise SS play with 2 misses at the same time is more impressive than an otherwise SS play with 2 misses spread out in the map. Obviously, in this example, the difference isn't huge, but still, score should represent performance on a map, and I stand with my position that pure accuracy is not the way to do this.

abraker wrote:

Ofc there is an argument about 65% FC VS 98% with a high miss-hit ratio, but there is no clear cut answer to which is more impressive

Cuber wrote:

While writing this, I came up with a (probably stupid) idea. The reason I'm not a fan of using combo for consistency is because it is possible to mash through hard patterns and keep combo. Also, I don't think that 1 miss should affect score too much. I mentioned that I like the system of using bonus score. Why don't we make the worth of a note (at least in the consistency portion of score) equal (scaled appropiately obviously) to your current health? Obviously, changes to health would need to be done, to punish any judgement less than a 300. However, maybe with a bunch of tuning, this might work. I'm probably just an idiot tho lol
Jeez that's just adding onto like frankenstein. This can be mitigated if the acc curve were a bit steeper such that a 99% would be considered as hard as the combo+acc equivalent you have in mind. By making the acc curve steeper, you are intensifying areas where the player is likely to do poor on or miss, much like combo without the shit combo based scoring comes with. And there is no need to adjust miss windows unless you think current ones need adjusting.
johnmedina999
By "making the accuracy curve steeper", do you mean we should lose more accuracy for a miss/50/100/200, or do you mean that we should lose more accuracy for a miss as we miss more (e.g., the second miss is more hurtful than the first)?
abraker

johnmedina999 wrote:

By "making the accuracy curve steeper", do you mean we should lose more accuracy for a miss/50/100/200, or do you mean that we should lose more accuracy for a miss as we miss more (e.g., the second miss is more hurtful than the first)?
lose more accuracy for a miss/50/100/200. And berfore anyone cries, while it's like HR/higher OD, this adjustment should be independent of what the miss window is (don't change miss window when adjusting this).

If you convert acc to score out of 1M as it is right now, 960,000 and 990,000 (96% and 99%) will be a very small gap and is also where most decent plays fall to. Transforming that same gap to 650,000 and 990,000 would allow to highlight skill more clearly. Yes anyone who gets less than an S gets wrecked, but then again you shouldn't be surprised at such results when you play maps out of your skill range.
Veracion

abraker wrote:

Veracion wrote:

As i already said, it's highly unlikely that there will be an SSS added, since there is no equivalent in the other game modes.
Unless you know, I dev like me submits a pull request for it and there is a backing to support the idea.
Uhm sorry, but I still doubt they would even consider it.


abraker wrote:

If you convert acc to score out of 1M as it is right now, 960,000 and 990,000 (96% and 99%) will be a very small gap and is also where most decent plays fall to. Transforming that same gap to 650,000 and 990,000 would allow to highlight skill more clearly. Yes anyone who gets less than an S gets wrecked, but then again you shouldn't be surprised at such results when you play maps out of your skill range.
Interesting suggestion, that doesn't seem too bad cause it'd cause people to learn patterns better. Seems to be getting in the direction of bms / stepmania, where accuracy is more important than osu!mania's current system.
Maybe the scoring shouldn't be to that extend, but it doesn't seem to be a bad direction. Maybe then less people would complain about smashing maps on an A.
Would time to get used to it though.
Redon
Harpie
I will admit I just don't like scoreV2
Veracion
living yell

Veracion wrote:

lmao yes.
Cuber

Veracion wrote:

only slightly less playing experience than the people developing scorev2 xd
Veracion
only slightly less playing experience than the people developing scorev2 xd

hahaha good one
Cuber
I have some ideas of how to improve the current scoreV2. Nearly nobody in the mania community likes the direction of this scoring system, and many good arguments have been made for why this scoring system and bad and why another scoring system would be better. However, especially now with the knowledge that osu!lazer will bring custom gamemodes, it makes sense for the osu!mania scoring system to employ a scoring system that fits into the pattern with the scoreV2 in other gamemodes. Those who want to play a gamemode with their favorite scoring system are welcome to.

That being said, here are some of my opinions on how to improve the current iteration of osu!mania scoreV2.
Accuracy:

It's fine, but it would be even better if a system like abraker outlined here.

Combo:

I don't quite understand why hit score is factored into this at all, isn't that the point of the accuracy portion of score? Also, there are the oddities of losing differents amounts of score for a non-perfect judgment, depending on what combo you had at the time. Only taking into account the combo, and not the hit score, would solve this problem.

I think it is too easy to spam through hard sections and hold combo. Making 50s (and maybe 100s) break combo would help. After all, combo is a number that tracks the number of notes that you haven't messed up on, and I would call getting a 50 a mess up.

Lastly, I think that as an anti-spam mechanic, hitting more keys than needed (not between notes, only for notes) should break combo.

Misc:

I know this isn't super relevant here, but please make grades based off score, not accuracy. If score is how you assess the performance of a play, use that for the grade.

I hope that my suggestions are considered.
Adri

Cuber wrote:

I know this isn't super relevant here, but please make grades based off score, not accuracy. If score is how you assess the performance of a play, use that for the grade.
+1

One of the reasons why SS makes no sense is this
ReTLoM
yeah and you can finally use the "sorted by ranking" because now i can use it and have tons of S with 900k+ and 700k+ scores who are worth nothing and i still need to search for bad scores :/
LastExceed

Smoogipooo (on reddit) wrote:

Combo scoring: I don't remember if I mentioned this publicly (I thought I did but can't find the post), but I want to try accuracy-only scoring.
I was so relieved when i read this :D

source
LastExceed
I went back a few pages in this thread and I haven't seen this yet, so I'm gonna go ahead and try to give an objective opinion about the current scoreV2:
LN change
This part turned out VERY good. I haven't seen a single player who dislikes it yet. The way it is now makes perfectly sense, and I especially like the 1.5x tolerance of releases since those are indeed very hard to time. Even though combo will (hopefully) be meaningless, I do think it was a good idea to remove the crazy amount of combo you get from LNs, especially if HD and FI stay scaling to combo. This brings us to the next topic:
Mods and multipliers
In this topic there's alot of different things to look at: lets start with multipliers. First of all: VMs being back to x1.0 is a good thing. There is too many people who use HD or FL by preference, and even though I am currently the only one doing the same with FI i do think that one should stay x1.0 as well.

Next: DT/NC. I don't quite know how this one works at the moment, but it feels like its simply the same as NoMod except that PP is calculated with the increased StarRating ect. (correct me if im wrong). DT PP brought back alot of players that moved to StepMania/BMS/O2Jam/idkwhatelse because osu!mania didn't have enough hard maps. Yes, the DT scores are currently giving way too much PP, but this actually isn't the fault of DT but the fault of the StarRating system which heavily overrates double trills. (2 days after DT PP was released peppy said it will be nerfed after several 2k+ scores were set. Please dont do that). Nerfing DT PP would therefore be a bad idea since maps that aren't overrated wouldnt give any DT PP at all anymore. If you're planning to change something in here, fix the SR system. Doubletrills need to be nerfed, and rice needs to be buffed (have a look at empress [SC], which is currently the most underrated ranked map).
Idk how osu!standard works in this aspect, but I don't think a multiplier would make sense on DT/NC, since you can't compare NoMod scores with DT scores anyway.

About HR: I interested in why it is currently UNRANKED instead of x1.0 because I can't see how it could be abused. HR is something that should definitely be a thing, though idk which multiplier.

Random/Mirror: Random should stay unranked, because it can be abused (1handed patterns can be turned into 2 handed patterns and vice versa). But a mirror mod (in case it will ever be a thing) would be a blessing to left handed players, because some maps are very right-based (onbeat notes are right hand, offbeat left hand all the time which is very mindblocking). It even goes so far that some players actually switch their scroll direction and rotate their monitor by 180° to achieve the same effect.

Autoconverts and keymodes: Autoconverts never give a noteworthy amount of PP so its pretty irrelevant, but I dislike that changing your amount of keys (no matter if increasing or decreasing) decreases your multiplier. The key modes should be split up into separated rankings instead.

HalfTime: I don't know if this was ever addressed before, but something definitely needs to change in here. First of all: HT gives too much PP. Idk why but it does. I think that instead of halving the score, it should work the same way DT does (identical calcultion with just the decreased SR ect).

NoFail: This is something that in my opinion works with all gamemodes: NoFail should be x1.0, but UNRANKED. You shouldn't be able to be rewarded for blindly mashing through a crazy hard map.

Easy: Just like in osu!standard, this is a difficult topic. The main problem is: atm nobody uses it because instead of EZ you can pick HT which has the same multiplier but is way easier. If my suggestion to HT is applied then it could keep going with simply a multiplier below 1.0, execpt that x0.5 is too extreme. Unlike standard, you can't make up for that by holding combo since mania is acc based and has a linear score curve. i'd try going with something like x0.7 and see how that turns out.

SuddenDeath/Perfect: I don't think these need to be discussed.
300 & 300r
although i have a very bad acc compared to other players on my level (which means i suffer alot from this change), I do think it is a good idea to decrease 300's to 60/61 (~98.36)%. It makes sense and also solves the problem of top tier players having 99.xx % EVERYWHERE. Some players aren't even able to pass a map without getting an S since they are so accurate. Having everything decreased a bit would be a good thing. There's just one thing im afraid of: If the PP system stays unchanged in this aspect then a better performance is required on the same map to gain the same, which would be a big problem to low acc passes. The one thing i like most about mania is the fact that you are rewarded for how good you play in general. Even a barely-pass with horrible acc can be your top score if its done on a map that is very hard for your standards and I really want to keep this.
combo
Here we are, at the most controversial topic of them all. I don't even know what to say about it at this point. I don't want mania to become frustrating like standard. Right now when you miss a note in mania, it drops your acc a little and thats pretty much it. While in standard, if you miss a note then your score is instantly worthless. I'm not going into detail about how stupid i find that since this thread is about mania, but I do want to say: PLEASE DON'T DO THIS TO MANIA! I want mania to be acc only (In my opinion you could even go so far to completely remove score and use acc for scoreboards) and I am sure many players (especially those who came from other VSRGs) will agree with this.
SV changes
Here comes something completely new: Would it be possible to add SVs to the SR calculation system? I know it's going to be hard to make this system unabusable (so that invisible notes ect don't lead to infinite SR ect) but I have faith in the developers to be capable of making it happen. But before that, I'd like to hear some opinions on this.
johnmedina999

Adri wrote:

Cuber wrote:

I know this isn't super relevant here, but please make grades based off score, not accuracy. If score is how you assess the performance of a play, use that for the grade.
+1

One of the reasons why SS makes no sense is this
If SS is based on 1 000 000 score, hardly anyone would get an SS on anything past 4*, and past 5* it would be virtually impossible.
And if it's not based on 1 000 000 (say it's based on 990 000 or something similar), keep in mind that accuracy now decreases with 300 compared to 300g, just as you get less score with 300 as opposed to 300g. Accuracy affects score, so minuscule mistakes would be a lot more punishing than before.

The only way grades based on score would work is if score is 100% based on accuracy (like DDR), and even then the grades would be based on accuracy by extension.
LastExceed
why not just keep the SS requirement at "300 and 300r only" as it is right now?
johnmedina999

LastExceed wrote:

why not just keep the SS requirement at "300 and 300r only" as it is right now?
That's what I'm saying. Cuber's idea would either go with this or completely destroy it, depending on what the SS requirement is.

But again, you lose accuracy now with 300, so the accuracy SS requirement would have to be adjusted.
LastExceed

johnmedina999 wrote:

But again, you lose accuracy now with 300, so the accuracy SS requirement would have to be adjusted.
you got it wrong. My idea is to make SS completely unrelated to acc. As long as you have 300 and 300r only you get the SS no matter your acc. which means you could theoretically get an SS with 98.36% (everything 300 and no 300r)
johnmedina999

LastExceed wrote:

you got it wrong. My idea is to make SS completely unrelated to acc. As long as you have 300 and 300r only you get the SS no matter your acc. which means you could theoretically get an SS with 98.36% (everything 300 and no 300r)

Ah, I see. Yeah, that works.
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