Version 2

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Do not use sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Do not alter any section of a held object to play a single hitsound.

So a rule got added with minimal discussion, with this thread. t/271245

So why was this rule pushed forward in the first place? Well, quite simple, some members of the community want to stop people from playing samples during sliders.
The logic was that, if a sample was starting mid-slider, then it might as well be playing as a slider-end, and the slider is too long.
I can understand how that can be annoying, but that's very much a personal preference, not something needed to be enforced strictly by a rule.
Easy difficulties pass sliders over beats in the music all the time. Sliderticks are used as hitsounds all the time. Why are sliderslides any different?

Furthermore, the way this rule is worded actively conflicts with legitimate use.
For an example of this rule causing a problem, please refer to this post -> p/4684311

---

Now, there was a thread about this before, and had much, much more discussion. t/131320
I would like to highlight a very important post from that thread. p/2285732

It was DENIED. By PEPPY.
The fact that it was brought up again is outrageous.

So basically, this rule was added in by a couple of people without contacting those still active in the community from the other thread (I was never contacted / informed that this rule was changing, and judging by the thread neither was peppy).

So this rule contradicts with how we handle sliderticks, is worded so poorly as to cause problems with legitimate hitsound use, and shouldn't even BE here because PEPPY said it was SILLY.

This is not acceptable as a rule.
It should be moved into guidelines instead to discourage its general use, not prevent it.

Technical details on proper and improper use are below.

Charles445 wrote:

See, it's been used properly before, that's the thing. It doesn't make sense as a rule because it clearly can work well. It's more fitting as a guideline / removed.
The whole point of guidelines is to encourage / discourage certain mapping behavior, but allow cases where it is handled properly / carefully.

In the case of sliderslides, if a mapper doesn't know what they're doing, it'll be really obvious when the audio starts popping like crazy.
If they do know what they're doing, you'll get stuff like fanzhen's map. They shouldn't be stopped just because others might not do it right.

See, changing sliderslides causes really obvious and nasty audio pops when done incorrectly.
This sort of thing has shown up in sets before, namely https://osu.ppy.sh/b/722224 , where a slider was changing sliderslides to match the piano.
The audio popping was so bad that it got removed and is not present in the ranked version.
It wasn't removed because of rules, but because it clearly wasn't any good. Modding took care of it, no problem.

For an example of how these can be done without audio popping, I've prepared an example osz.
http://puu.sh/lO7bV/5719bc29b3.osz
This goes through 5 different sounds on the same slider.
When played with NoMod, Half Time, or DoubleTime, there is no audio popping whatsoever due to how the files and inheriting sections are set up.
The only audio popping noticeable is in the editor and when NoMod is watched at 2x speed (neither of which are gameplay).


Really, the only time a mapper would want to do this is if hitsounding sliderticks just isn't cutting it, or if increasing slider tick rate is causing gameplay issues.
No reason to stop them from even attempting it, though. If it comes out bad they'll learn from their mistakes and fix it / try something else.
If it comes out good, why stop them?


tl;dr No need for rule, it can be done properly and it's obvious when it's done poorly.
If you want to discourage its use, put the rule into guidelines. That way modders will point it out more frequently, too.

Haven't people been ignoring this rule for a while now? For example Cosmic Cortex. Cosmic Cortex has a long slider in which there is a few snares put in there as slider tick hitsound. The long slider mapping the guitar in the solo and those snares going for the snares in the actual song. And mapping just the drums in a guitar solo would be just dumb. So, why not use for example a snare as a slider tick hitsound to get those snares in too?

Well I guess that's all from me.

To be honest I never understood the trouble about it. Agreeing.

I think peppy mostly found the onesided discussion and the personal stuff in the thread silly.
Still agreeing that this shouldn't be a hard rule, a guideline if anything.

I can see Lust's point of the usage of other gameplay-elements in its place but there can certainly be situations where alteration of the sliderslide are a viable solution over replacing the sliderside hitsound with a different element.

Hitsounds are supposed to give feedback. Having a single hitsound during a slider is missing the purpose of hitsounding because it gives the player a feedback that they hit something, while they didn't.

Sliderticks are an edge case: The player isn't pressing down or releasing a button at that very moment, but the slidertick is atleast visible and expected to give some kind of feedback (even though slider ticks normally give rather unrecognizable or almost silent feedback - that's why slidertick hitsounds should be used rarely and should have a lower volume than regular hitsounds in most cases).

If a mapper really feels the need to hitsound a sound during a slider (which I personally would never do, why would you hitsound to a rhythm you are not following - oh well) they should atleast increase their slider tick rate to a point that covers those hitsound-worthy beats, in order to use slidertick hitsounding.

I have seen one acceptable use of sliderslide hitsounding so far - fanzhen has used it in a marathon (i don't remember which one) to play a rather calm hitsound on every 1/8-beat of a longer slider, to follow a special instrument with it. Yet this case is so rare that the rule should stay as it is.

I have seen one acceptable case but i want to keep it forbidden...?!?

I guess im the one who actually make this discussion start uhhhhh......

let's be serious, that rule won't make sense in every cases, since hitsounds can be used in many different ways
There are more and more low speed sliders in maps nowadays, lots of them are pretty long, which means sometimes they will cover lots of different beats.
for example, you can use sliderslides in many different ways to make "effects", like wobble, fades, or even a fast drum/hihat roll.
back to mapping itself, some rhythms, however, make you feel calm (or calmer than other parts) but really complicate in the background, and you want to reduce the object density to fit the trend. in cases like this, the hitsounding can work well.

Also, i don't think that rule is worded well.
it seems like to tell everyone that you should use only continuous samples on sliderwhistle, sliderslide, and spinnerspin, as i see so far,
but there are some different cases, like switching between different kinds of sliderslide in a single slider, you can't directly understand if they are acceptable or not by reading that rule. (and yeah, i want to know if they are rankable or not asap too)
if the rule won't be changed in the final result, i think it still have to be re-written in a better form to make sure people can understand that easier.

i still tend to make this rule removed, but i don't know how other people think about it.
at least it did effect me so hard and i believe there are some other maps stucked (like mine) because of this too.

sorry for those bad grammars but i tried to explain everything clear.

Then allow sliderslide hitsounding for special cases like drumrolls, but not otherwise. Or turn it into a guideline, but that will result in mappers putting clap hitsounds on sliderslide for example, which is terrible and will lead to a disqualification, so it's better to keep it as a rule imo.

Why would mappers who aim for ranking put a clap hitsound as a sliderslide? I'd understand if the difficulty was easy, normal or hard where doing long streams is a no go. I don't actually know how that sliderslide thing would sound but I can only imagine it would sound horrible. Mappers who aim for ranking should just use that good old common sense on what sounds good and what doesn't. If that sliderslide drumroll thing doesn't sound good then why would someone use it?

See, it's been used properly before, that's the thing. It doesn't make sense as a rule because it clearly can work well. It's more fitting as a guideline / removed.
The whole point of guidelines is to encourage / discourage certain mapping behavior, but allow cases where it is handled properly / carefully.

In the case of sliderslides, if a mapper doesn't know what they're doing, it'll be really obvious when the audio starts popping like crazy.
If they do know what they're doing, you'll get stuff like fanzhen's map. They shouldn't be stopped just because others might not do it right.

See, changing sliderslides causes really obvious and nasty audio pops when done incorrectly.
This sort of thing has shown up in sets before, namely https://osu.ppy.sh/b/722224 , where a slider was changing sliderslides to match the piano.
The audio popping was so bad that it got removed and is not present in the ranked version.
It wasn't removed because of rules, but because it clearly wasn't any good. Modding took care of it, no problem.

For an example of how these can be done without audio popping, I've prepared an example osz.
http://puu.sh/lO7bV/5719bc29b3.osz
This goes through 5 different sounds on the same slider.
When played with NoMod, Half Time, or DoubleTime, there is no audio popping whatsoever due to how the files and inheriting sections are set up.
The only audio popping noticeable is in the editor and when NoMod is watched at 2x speed (neither of which are gameplay).


Really, the only time a mapper would want to do this is if hitsounding sliderticks just isn't cutting it, or if increasing slider tick rate is causing gameplay issues.
No reason to stop them from even attempting it, though. If it comes out bad they'll learn from their mistakes and fix it / try something else.
If it comes out good, why stop them?


tl;dr No need for rule, it can be done properly and it's obvious when it's done poorly.
If you want to discourage its use, put the rule into guidelines. That way modders will point it out more frequently, too.

I agree fully.
A proposal of a wording for a Guideline would be nice, and some more opinions, then this can be bubbled.

To be honest, that rule actually confused me, so I just ignore it lol. Some people just need to keep calm and just play the map XD
Definitely agree to this change o3o

Alright, guideline sounds like it would work, so I'll update the first post accordingly in a bit.
To avoid a repeat of last time I'm going to send out a PM to others involved in the previous thread so they know that this one exists.
So let's get feedback from them first before moving anything forward.

EDIT: Sent a PM to the 14 in the previous thread.

I personally agree the original purpose of the rule; use hitsounds as their original intention.

If this principle can still be assured as the form of a guideline, while allowing nice exceptions, then that might be better than a rule.

I agree with this
I have seen some cases where it's used, mostly on approval maps, on the end (often it's a 64beat (or something like that) slow slider)
I also find it fitting on maps like Dadadadadadadadadada, As the clap sounds shifts from 1/1 to 1/2 and so on, so you don't need to change BPM or slidertickrate, which is inpossible

Oh Charles, I completely forgot about this, I saw your PM and though: Huh, what's this?

Hitsounds should be used as they were meant. I do see your point, though, and pretty much agree Nerova's map is executed properly (actual loops). Your example was fine too, as the hitsounds were done in a way it keeps an steady rhythm, I think it'd depend of the song to judge it as intrusive or not. (Mind to link fanzhen's map? I've been away from standard for ages ). What isn't okay is people putting snares and other related hitsounds just because.

I rather change the wording, than moving it straight to guidelines.

I don't know if this modification would allow hitsounding like in Charles' example though.

Baraatje123 wrote:

I also find it fitting on maps like Dadadadadadadadadada, As the clap sounds shifts from 1/1 to 1/2 and so on, so you don't need to change BPM or slidertickrate, which is inpossible

This problem is more related to limitations present in the editor. Rather support the Feature Request for this.

I really dislike this being a rule, but I'd be totally fine with a guideline.

As with many things in mapping, there are cases in which this is useful and in which it is not.
If the mapper is experienced enough to use these kinds of hitsounds to actually enhance or improve the map/feel, then I dont see why this should be forbidden. Ofcourse, if these are used in a way that doesnt make any sense, then we could refer to the guideline and work on that issue.

You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.

My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).

The rule only had to exist because common sense was so rare (and apparently still is). There is no point for this to be a guideline, because there will not be a case where an alternative is not better/more correct. Everything that has been "done right" can be explained by either a) it didn't break the rule in the first place, or b) someone was slacking during the modding process and/or does not understand the purpose of this rule.

i remember in the old version of skystar's colorful asterisk remix, he hitsounded the entire piano part on a single 'M' slider. but since it was hitsounded via sliderslides, it was technically unrankable and he had to redo that part with normal patterns

guideline seems better maybe. as long as people don't abuse.

Dropping some good examples for the usage of sliderslide hitsounds for reference (yeah I could think of more since my latest post)

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/437671
himmel feat. YooSanHyakurei - Seraphim, by fanzhen0019
03:26:577 (1) - pretty neat effect

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/389348
TRakker - Rootus, by Amamiya Yuko
02:26:663 (3) -
02:28:685 (6) - etc
a higher slider tick rate would make the sv changes unfair (in this case lower str makes more sense here)

I'm now clearly in the position that it should be a Guideline, to allow for cases like these.

most of the people i've asked can't understand what does that rule mean actually, includes some BNs and even QATs
this won't help when you're going to judge hitsounding on a map to make sure it's rankable or not.
rules should be able to understand by mappers to follow, not to make people confused, which means a hard-to-understand rule is not good and should be changed or even deleted.

those wrote:

You can only attribute this to the limitations of the editor. p/4718862 (as well as the previous thread) explains everything that still isn't understood.

My suggestion is to go into Feature Requests to suggest storyboarding conditional audio cues with stricter conditions (if slider is being pressed between time "a" and time "b" -> play "audiofile.wav" at time "x", etc.).

but the truth is, you can't attribute all of those things to the editor and add a feature on storyboarding to fix the problem, since the map and the storyboard are two different kinds of things and they are not related to each other.
actually this change on editor will make the whole mapping process much more complicate than before, it makes you spend more time on thinking about their uses, not everyone has strong logic like that to deal with that complicate work.
maybe you think that's ok because this kind of situation is really rare, but there's another important reason, it needs more calculation on gameplay, like timing, press, duration on hit objects, obviously you'll have high chances on getting glitches/bugs. considering about the input lag and the game's response time, the difference on gameplay is much bigger than you thought (especially when you're a player with bad accuracy), it won't better than just change sliderslide samples.

just some personal opinions though.

fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine

Shiro wrote:

fwiw what peppy finds silly is the use of non-loopable hitsounds for sliderslides (ie replacing a sliderslide with for instance a hitnormal)
which is exactly what this rule is trying to prevent from happening, because it is stupid as all hell
it doesn't prevent ticksounds in any way, you can still use your horrible hitsounding and wrong rhythms as you please (yes, ticksounds are an abomination)
this thread is silly
and the rule is fine

Have you even seen the examples in my latest post? There are good uses of this, otherwise I agree and this guideline would still only allowed to be broken for a few rare examples.

Skystar's isn't really a good example of proper hitsounding. I do get the intention was to keep consistency in hitsounding, but the slidersound just gets in the way of what he tried to do with the rhythm changes. It also doesn't provide anything to the hitsounding, as it blends considerably with the song.

fanzhen's falls into borderline, as Charles' example (just without the looping thing). It still blends a bit.

Either you're using the wrong rhythm for your hitsounding ideas or not using the appropriate hitsound.

Agreeing on this.

I don't know if it was already said but, it could be better if you write something to discourage mappers from using this "technique", like it was said for slidertick hitsounds. If only this rule moves to Guidelines.

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.

Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.

Full support of getting this rule taken out.

Maakkeli wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/357996
05:06:291 (1) - Does this not make sense?

The slidertick is hitsounded, not the sliderslide ? so at least it makes sense...

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Cherry Blossom wrote:

I don't really get how a mapper could use it, really, for most of cases it doesn't make sense and it is not needed.
This is a rhythm game, if sliderticks could not be hitsounded (Assume the beat is not on any white or red tick) that means the BPM is wrong or the song is a little random ? I don't have any example, i never saw it before.
Or maybe, the mapper wants to add other hitsounds...... which are not beats.... uuuh.

Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.

Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.

I was mostly talking about parts like 03:04:583 (5) - on the advanced diff, where the loud drum beats get skipped over. But anyway, I was really just bringing up that a lot of songs mix 1/3 drums in to songs that are mostly 1/2, so you can't use sliderticks; I just picked the first song I thought of as an example.

This is what Lust wrote in the rule discussion thread:
Considering about the differences between circles and sliders, you can't change all of the sliders into circles, because circle is not a HOLD object, and not all of the cases can be dealed with clicks, like drums behind long vocals.
Repeat won't work too when the sound is not in the middle of the slider.

People now use slider tick rate 1 mostly because slider ticks in high density is quite "annoying", if you want to cover everything by slider ticks, lots of them will be unnecessary.

And the last one, using storyboard hitsounds. It looks like a good idea, but the sample will still be played even when you didn't catch the object.

I agree that there are a lot of cases can be easily dealed with simple replacements, but exceptions shouldn't be ignored. They still can be used properly if the mapper know how to.

maybe the new guideline can be written with this line:
But this is definitely not a good one, and I can't get a better explanation of this. (and with better grammar, of course)
Whatever, I really hope this can be pushed forward for more different things from mappers' creativity.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

UndeadCapulet wrote:

Sliderslide hitsounding would be great for 1/3 stuff.In the lower-to-medium difficulties of songs like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/628159, where sliderticks can't cover everything.

Most important beats are not on 1/3 on this map, so I guess hitsounds on sliderticks are fine, don't you think ?
Too many mappers want to use 41534151 hitsounds on their map because"holy firetruck yes i know how to use 1251312 hitsounds on my maps to show that i'm pro and creative.", when the whole song is ruined by too many extra "artificial" things, i didn't say using a lot of hitsound is bad, it's just using them sparingly.
The easiest diffs just follow the most important beats. It will be a very bad idea to try to hitsound what you can hear on 1/3 or 1/4 ticks on easiest diffs.

the way that sliderticks works is that it bases off where you START the slider. so if it's a 1/3 map and you start the slider on a 1/3 tick then it will miss the white tick.

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.

Kibbleru wrote:

im aware you can say. "why the hell would you start sliders on 1/3 tick instead of the white"
you can't deny the fact that alot of people already do this to 'map vocal'

don't get me wrong, i dislike starting sliders on 1/3 ticks as well but, just pointing out facts.

Charles could say something like,"follow the right polarity !".
In my opinion, i don't really like to start a slider on something else than a 1/1 or 1/2 tick on easiest diffs, but sometimes the song is different and you must use 1/3 or 1/6 ticks.

The discussion is going a bit off-topic now. We found out that slidertick hitsounds could be used for two things:
- instead of slidertick hitsounds if the slider tick rate just doesn't cover the beat, for example if snap changes to 1/3 or the other way around
- rare: to create the effect of a drumroll during a longer slider, as seen in fanzhen's Seraphim map for example
The question is now if everybody can agree that sliderslide hitsounds make sense in these cases, because if there are exceptions to the current rule the rule should definitely be moved to guidelines for now. It would still be enforced for most maps that use those sounds, if there would be a better way to do so.

I'm fine with that.

By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Desperate-kun wrote:

By the way, the wording of the rule should be adjusted if it were to be a guideline. The current wording sounds too forceful.

Suggestion:

Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds should not be used in a way that would replicate a hitsound on a circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, or slider repeat. Sliderslide, sliderwhistle, and spinnerspin hitsounds are considered continuous hitsounds, meaning that their files play from start to end and loop as one continuous sound for the length of the held object. Any section of a held object should not be altered to play a single hitsound.

maybe that's not really important, but i think people just forget about spinner ends (if that does count as a thing)

and i think that wording can be slightly fixed like this......?

What about screwing this long enumeration all together?

I wouldn't consider anything aside from sliderstart and circles as a real "hitobject" as I don't have to actively hit the other stuff.
I think "single hitobject" is more ambiguous and even though "circle, slider start, slider end, slider tick, slider repeat, or spinner end" is quite a long rat-tail, it excludes any kind of (mis)interpretation of what a hitobject is(or singular hitsound or whatever you might want to use to replace it).

Another example of sliderslide hitsounding: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/83560

there are two specific parts: 00:30:464 - to 00:40:064 - , and 02:27:035 - to 02:36:635 - .


green lines are placed for switching the samples.
in this case we can see that sliderslide hitsounding is possible, and it can fit music as well.
and they won't play if you didn't click them, that make sense on gameplay too.

My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.

That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.

Garven wrote:

My personal objection to something like this is that you have no visual cue to show that this kind of hitsound is showing up. It's why a lot of people object to storyboard hitsounds as well. If this could be more leaning towards having a bias towards using slider tick sounds if possible (ala using the proper tick rate) and only use this technique in extenuating circumstances I would give support for that.

That said, if this is going forward you need to be careful when these sounds are used in the lower level difficulties. I recall when these had a small surge in popularity people didn't bother QCing their lower level difficulties and the looping hitsound would go off again incorrectly on longer sliders which resulted in a lot of unranks.

What if we add something like "you should use slidertick hitsounds as possible as you can before you start to use sliderslides blablabla"

and also personally i think it's not necessary to make every diffs all hitsounded in the same way
lower diffs have less objects and can't afford that much hitsounds at the same time (like the map i posted above)
so i think it's better to make them just "hitsounded correctly without any problems"

With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.