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[New Rule] Forbidding the usage of custom sliderslide

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Topic Starter
LKs
This topic is about alternative uses other than the original concept of the sliderslide.wav. In particular, in contention is the use of the sliderslide.wav to play a hitsound instead of a constant background sound that would be expected during a slider.

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There has been a heated discussion among staff members, however no consensus reached after weeks. So I'd like to see opinions from the public, after all all RC should be made in order to benefiting the community.

There have two contrary opinions toward sliderslide:

Advocates' opinions:

1. Sliderslide can be used to keep consistency, as well as what slidertick do, and it's a bit more convenient
2. Sliderslide can be used to create rhythm during long sliders, and can also keep consistency while the song itsellf has complex rhythm(dubsetp/DnB etc) when slidertick can not
3. Sliderslide can sound simultaneously when a slidertick sounds, in which way can reduce the efforts editing.merging two hitsound.wav in a music software when needed
4. This is a traditional technique for advanced mappers, which has being used for years
5. osu! devs like woc has been putting efforts into supplementing the hitsound system, which also covers refining the performance of sliderslide.
6. In today, following multi music track while mapping is more and more common, such as in an mapset people tend to follow both a 1/1 vocal track and a 1/3 drum track, a 1/1 slider with sliderslide is a not bad solution, which can both keep the flow and consistency

Opponents' opinions:

1. The definition of hitsound is a sound applied to an object that happens when actions are done by the player. Example: clicking ("hit"ing) a circle.
2. If you want a non-constant (sudden) sound on a particular time, then put a note there instead of using them in sliderslide, which is designed to have a constant sound.
3. Players may be surprised when he hears a sound from nowhere
(especially if the difficulty is a Normal or Easy, it might disorient beginners while playing, since they hear an extra sound out of nowhere.)
4. Sliderslide is against intended usage


Feel free to post your opinions, BATs can edit the post when new/different relevant opinions are posted


A thread I wrote about hitsound, for anyone who is interested

-----------------------

EDIT: also, you have remade the pool several(3+) times, that's enough for any extra requirements, now the pool should has met your expectation, if anyone still touch the pool I will lock this and regard this total consideration as a long denied april joke you gave me
Kirino Kousaka
I don't think it must be forbidden. May I ask the exact reason why this is being talked about? (like map link with annoying custom sliderslide)
Charles445

Kirino Kousaka wrote:

I don't think it must be forbidden. May I ask the exact reason why this is being talked about? (like map link with annoying custom sliderslide)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/234703&m=0#

It wasn'tvery clear what the topic is about, this is about utilizing the sliderslide to play a hitsound at a certain time.

Personally, I think it is a rather ingenious way of playing a sound without a tick or storyboarding in. It makes sure the sound only plays when the slider is being played.

I'm not a fan of clap-ticks (which this is similar to), but I don't see a reason to restrict it. It's a hitsound, people add them to maps all the time. What's the big deal?
Makar
Your selections and description are terribly bias towards the idea that it is okay to use in most situations.

Anyways, sliderslide sounds are okay as long as it contains a similar affect as the default sliderslide. Using them to keep consistency is kinda lazy imo (like using slider tick claps for clap sounds on upper level difficulties so the mapper doesn't have to map a note there), and you should use notes at times where you want sounds to be. They should be used in a way that they don't surprise players. If a note can be used for the hitsound then use that instead.

tl;dr treat it like custom slider ticks - they are generally discouraged as they are a way for mappers to be lazy and follow their own rhythm most of the time, but they shouldn't really be called unrankable since there are cases where it makes sense (this is rare though tbh).
Kirino Kousaka

Charles445 wrote:

Kirino Kousaka wrote:

I don't think it must be forbidden. May I ask the exact reason why this is being talked about? (like map link with annoying custom sliderslide)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/234703&m=0#

It wasn'tvery clear what the topic is about, this is about utilizing the sliderslide to play a hitsound at a certain time.

Personally, I think it is a rather ingenious way of playing a sound without a tick or storyboarding in. It makes sure the sound only plays when the slider is being played.

I'm not a fan of clap-ticks (which this is similar to), but I don't see a reason to restrict it. It's a hitsound, people add them to maps all the time. What's the big deal?
I see, I played the map and it seemed perfectly good to play for me. I have no problems with this custom sliderslide so it isn't really needed to be forbidden. (Unless there is some other ranked map with a worse issue regarding this.) :3
Charles445
To me it's like a claptick, or using a storyboarded hitsound.

The topic here is created in a bias fashion, but regardless of that, I still think that the slider slide hitsound manipulation should be allowed, as it is merely hitsound manipulation, something that we do on a daily basis anyway. The mapper has creative control over the sounds on a map.
Topic Starter
LKs

Charles445 wrote:

To me it's like a claptick, or using a storyboarded hitsound.

The topic here is created in a bias fashion, but regardless of that, I still think that the slider slide hitsound manipulation should be allowed, as it is merely hitsound manipulation, something that we do on a daily basis anyway. The mapper has creative control over the sounds on a map.
description in brackets are what other staff members' precede talkings, I just cope&paste here since I don't know it's weakness better than them, if needed I can give you a list of which sentence was written by whom

feel free to edit/rewrite sentences as long as it doesn't change the original meaning, if you think it's biased
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
-------------------------- 38% 38% [ 10 ]

i don't support, custom sliderslide have more potential than just making 24claps

and for claps it's the same as storyboard hitsounds, how could you forbid this
Seph
voted for dashes
Kanye West

Seph wrote:

voted for dashes
Topic Starter
LKs
I don't see your point here, makar, why did you remove all the precedent votes gathered(about 50 votes in total) just for merging the options and make them terribly ambiguous?

remaking a pool will largerly hurt the public's passion and willingness to vote again, you can't make up for the compensation
Charles445
Because the original poll sounded biased and didn't cover the issue at hand.
These three look pretty good actually. Support, against, and neutral.
Topic Starter
LKs

Charles445 wrote:

Because the original poll sounded biased and didn't cover the issue at hand.
These three look pretty good actually. Support, against, and neutral.
nah the curretn fails to cover things. and fails to indicate who in which position is voting. This won't change the result in a little bit degree tho

EDIT: well, if you think this is better, let's wait and see from now on, no more side-tracked posts will be appreciated
Charles445
The original post was split into three groups of votes anyway, right? I don't think this will be a problem. Plus, it means OT will stop voting on dashes
Makar

LKs wrote:

Charles445 wrote:

Because the original poll sounded biased and didn't cover the issue at hand.
These three look pretty good actually. Support, against, and neutral.
nah the curretn fails to cover things. and failed to indicate who in which position is voting. This won't change the result in a little bit degree tho
You are missing something here. The original poll had options for "okay, good, fine" were descriptions of sliderslide sound, while only "bad" was used in the options that opposed slidierslide sound (first mistake). The original poll's last 2 options (in the after the second wave of dashes) were both options that supported the fact that the rule shouldn't be made by saying it is "okay" or "I find nothing wrong" (second mistake). Including things such as "I use it" vs "I haven't used it" is also bias, because it is generally a public assumption that experience = knowledge and stronger opinion. Those that oppose sliderslide sounds will not use it as frequently as those that support it. Thus, a fake idea is given to the random people that see these results, as "I have experience with using sliderslide and I think its okay" is assumed to be more significant than "I have never used this technique, but I think it's bad" at first glance.
Topic Starter
LKs

Makar wrote:

You are missing something here. The original poll had options for "okay, good, fine" were descriptions of sliderslide sound, while only "bad" was used in the options that opposed slidierslide sound (first mistake). The original poll's last 2 options (in the after the second wave of dashes) were both options that supported the fact that the rule shouldn't be made by saying it is "okay" (second mistake). Including things such as "I use it" vs "I haven't used it" is also bias, because it is generally a public assumption that experience = knowledge and stronger opinion. Those that oppose sliderslide sounds will not use it as frequently as those that support it. Thus, a fake idea is given to the random people that see these results, as "I have experience with using sliderslide and I think its okay" is assumed to be more significant than "I have never used this technique, but I think it's bad"

no, that's just your opinion, no one else suggested that I have experience = my opinion is more important. This shouldn't be your way to think about a pool. Also, plz don't post irrelevant posts again, your deeds has significantly disturbed the pool and you transfered the 3rd option into a nonsense one.

I don't understand what the thread is talking about or care about the conclusion

This option is totally useless and will dramatically drops down the efficiency of the pool. A person without a clear opinion is not suggested to vote, and that option influences nothing while people count the total votes. you made a big mistake on making a ballot here

EDIT: also, you have remade the pool several(3+) times, that's enough for any extra requirements, now the settings of the pool should has met your expectation, if anyone still touch the pool I will lock this and regard this total consideration as a long denied april joke you gave me
Makar

LKs wrote:

no, that's just your opinion, no one else suggested that I have experience = my opinion is more important. This shouldn't be your way to think about a pool.
Again, this is generally the public assumption, when the observer is uninformed.

LKs wrote:

Also, plz don't post irrelevant posts again, your deeds has significantly disturbed the pool and you transfered the 3rd option into a nonsense one.
I don't understand what the thread is talking about or care about the conclusion

This option is totally useless and will dramatically drops down the efficiency of the pool. A person without a clear opinion is not suggested to vote, and that option influences nothing while people count the total votes. you made a big mistake on making a ballot here

EDIT: also, you have remade the pool several(3+) times, that's enough for any extra requirements, now the pool should has met your expectation, if anyone still touch the pool I will lock this and regard this total consideration as a long denied april joke you gave me
The 3rd option serves as a neutral one, which is nice and prevents bias results. If you think that is disturbing to the results, what do you call your use of dashes? Also, I remade it in very quick succession (sorry I suck at using preview) and no results were given during those changes when I checked.

Your replies to this thread have all been replies to comments about the thread itself, rather than replies to the proper feedback Charles and I have both contributed to it. If you don't mind, I would like to get back on topic see what you have to say to this on-topic feedback.
Topic Starter
LKs

Makar wrote:

LKs wrote:

no, that's just your opinion, no one else suggested that I have experience = my opinion is more important. This shouldn't be your way to think about a pool.
Again, this is generally the public assumption, when the observer is uninformed.
Prove it on a particular basis, or don't assert definitely

just wait and see the results. No one wanna see people post unwarranted&baseless stuff
Valkyrie-
didn't catch the meaning

Maybe sliders should be forbidden too. lol
And 3 claps are illegal in the near future.

Why not unrank the AR10 maps? I think that seems nicer than this topic.
Zero__wind
ridiculous to forbid
ACC
ridiculous to forbid

free mapping, no more restraint
DakeDekaane
^Oh boy.

I get LKs' point, and somehow agree with it, but there's no reason to forbid a custom sliderslide, if the use of it is clearly wrong, it should be pointed in modding process.

Just throwing my 2 cents.
Kirino Kousaka

18446744073709551616 wrote:

didn't catch the meaning

Maybe sliders should be forbidden too. lol
And 3 claps are illegal in the near future.

Why not unrank the AR10 maps? I think that seems nicer than this topic.

DakeDekaane wrote:

^Oh boy.

I get LKs' point, and somehow agree with it, but there's no reason to forbid a custom sliderslide, if the use of it is clearly wrong, it should be pointed in modding process.

Just throwing my 2 cents.
and this^ nice one dake
tsuka
i wanna make a girlfriend
wonders
i wanna tsuka is a girl
Anticloud
offtopic: such a pity i didnt see any post like this when the ranking rules about the vocaloid series' artist was changed
ACC
All opponents' opinions in my view like obsessive compulsive disorder

there is nothing wrong,but someone feels uncomfortable by his fondness
Kazami Yuuka_old_1
I wanna up tsuka.
she_old
RIP old poll
peppy
Forbidding a hitsound? Why?

This can be judged on a per-map basis.
Topic Starter
LKs
I wondered why too. now it seems this thread has finished its mission and the request of adding this into the RC has been denied
CRIMSON
err...

i actually dont see a point to forbid this...
Loctav

LKs wrote:

I wondered why too. now it seems this thread has finished its mission and the request of adding this into the RC has been denied
Lol, the poll isn't even expired. Calm yourself and wait for more opinions. Also I hope that you've spread the link to more people but to supporters you already knew from he Chinese sub community.
Please spread this thread in #modhelp and other sub communities to gather more opinions.
For now, this looks like a poor attempt to kill a discussion before it even started.
Topic Starter
LKs

Loctav wrote:

LKs wrote:

I wondered why too. now it seems this thread has finished its mission and the request of adding this into the RC has been denied
Lol, the poll isn't even expired. Calm yourself and wait for more opinions.
I'm waiting, that's why I didn't move this thread
Also I hope that you've spread the link to more people but to supporters you already knew from he Chinese sub community.
Please spread this thread in #modhelp and other sub communities to gather more opinions.
sure, go spread it, ppl will appreciate you. but you are not allowed to attack me
For now, this looks like a poor attempt to kill a discussion before it even started.
we have discussed this for weeks, in case you don't know
Loctav
You shouldn't interpret my appearing and interventions of your doing as attack, everytime. Don't be so sensitive.
Also rules are not decided by a poll. They are decided by factual evidences, discussions and compromises. Tho I am tempted to remove the poll. And I will probably do it, since we don't "vote" rules or it's denial.
Topic Starter
LKs

Loctav wrote:

You shouldn't interpret my appearing and interventions of your doing as attack, everytime. Don't be so sensitive.
Also rules are not decided by a poll. They are decided by factual evidences, discussions and compromises. Tho I am tempted to remove the poll. And I will probably do it, since we don't "vote" rules or it's denial.
what? are you srsly? please provide factual evidences and let us know you're competent to participate in the discussion before acting like you have controlled everything, dude, it only shows off your greed for power
Loctav
My factual evidence is regardless. This is a formal critic on the useage and process of this board.
We do not decide rules by votings.
I assume this is a launched off showcase to gather opinions, which aren't one (refer to the shitposts in 2nd page)
I don't want to suspect you anything, but many votes are probably happening, because of fellow runners.

In my eyes, rules in GENERAL don't need a poll, they need discussion.
Also the way you discuss is too selective. Please go and evaluate the arguments of your opponents and try to understand WHY they think it's wrong. Try to get their point (this goes for everyone here).
We don't act like "I dislike because FREEEEEEDOM!" Or "I dislike because I am always right and this is how I roll"

Thus I removed the poll. Please keep on discussing with EVERYONE who posts factual evidences for any side if this rule.

I am not supposed to participate, I just supervise this board, so people keep doing things FORMALLY correct. Adding a poll is FORMALLY incorrect, that's why I'll remove it.
Topic Starter
LKs

Loctav wrote:

My factual evidence is regardless. I don't even wanna reply to you seeing this. Are you aware of the condition? This is a formal critic on the useage and process of this board.
We do not decide rules by votings.
I didn't say we do, right?
I assume this is a launched off showcase to gather opinions, which aren't one (refer to the shitposts in 2nd page)
I don't want to suspect you anything, but many votes are probably happening, because of fellow runners.
Then edit your post and apologize, lemme see your sincerity. I don't know every chinese in the thread, unfortunately, this just indicates chinese are more involved in making a new changes

In my eyes, rules in GENERAL don't need a poll, they need discussion.
Again, sigh, I even doubt you read the op or not
Also the way you discuss is too selective. Please go and evaluate the arguments of your opponents and try to understand WHY they think it's wrong. Try to get their point (this goes for everyone here).
I said you're free to add opinions to the op, and sayings in brackets are what been said by particular people
We don't act like "I dislike because FREEEEEEDOM!" Or "I dislike because I am always right and this is how I roll"

Thus I removed the poll. Please keep on discussing with EVERYONE who posts factual evidences for any side if this rule.
You don't have the right to, this only tell us you fear for the result and public opinions

I am not supposed to participate, I just supervise this board, so people keep doing things FORMALLY correct. Adding a poll is FORMALLY incorrect, that's why I'll remove it.
You broke into a discussion/topic that you knew few of. You supervise? keep doing things FORMALLY in your own judgement?

listen to me, loc, before rushing into sth or saying sth, take time to figure out what's happening, or all your sayings make 0 sense
deadbeat
LKs, i've lost all faith in you as a BAT. you're taking things the completely wrong way. Loctav has every right to remove the poll from this discussion. Polls aren't used in these discussions and they shouldn't be. never. i'm also sure that he would of read and understood what is going before taking any actions in this thread.
all this discussion has brought about it is you having a go at anyone who disagrees with you.

while i can say that i have no opinion on this rule, i do feel i should point out that you're acting less than professionally and this needs to stop now
orioncomet

peppy wrote:

Forbidding a hitsound? Why?

This can be judged on a per-map basis.
^ I agree.
On side topic: I would not agree to anything about custom sliderslide/SB sound being added to rules.
It's like peppy've said, it's per-map basis, (or difficulties, imo.)

Anyways guys, please calm down.


EDIT:
v
Yes, probably a guideline.
Loctav

orioncomet wrote:

peppy wrote:

Forbidding a hitsound? Why?

This can be judged on a per-map basis.
^ I agree.
On side topic: I would not agree to anything about custom sliderslide/SB sound being added to rules.
It's like peppy've said, it's per-map basis, (or difficulites, imo.)

Anyways guys, please calm down.
Actually I agree to this post very much. But maybe a working guideline can find a general consensus of its "usual way to use".
ampzz
If people use custom hitsounding in a dumb manner just tell them not to or simply leave it to modders to express their views on a better way to go about it rather than forbidding the outright usage of a long standing changeable element of the game.

The amount of times I've heard the silent sample used is phenomenal.
peppy
Locked. Please move to the place that says "this is silly".
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