Sadly, you have to make an agreement with the community, not with the QAT. They won't judge your map anymore. So better put the effort to convince people raising concerns here that this creation is fine as it is or do not try to get it Ranked.
forum
Camellia - Routing
posted
Total Posts
531
gonna bring my opinions on this as well:
- 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc.
- 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) -
- 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones.
- 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l
- 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map.
- Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >:
- 00:08:311 (1,2) - 1,0 spacing, but 01:06:645 (1,2) - 1,10 here, seems there is a small error
- 01:40:811 (1,1,2) - here too
Topic Starter
If my opinions are outright rejected regardless of what they are, I don't see the point. It's bothersome and tiresome to need to explain every single object's existence and what I intend to bring about by using it that way and that i need to do it multiple times is just stressful as hell.
Maybe moddingv2 will improve this since the evidence that I explained things before would be much more easily viewable. But it doesn't stop people from disagreeing just because they disagree. Does that automatically make me wrong? Why is the entire burden of proof on the mapper? That's horrifically stressful.
Maybe moddingv2 will improve this since the evidence that I explained things before would be much more easily viewable. But it doesn't stop people from disagreeing just because they disagree. Does that automatically make me wrong? Why is the entire burden of proof on the mapper? That's horrifically stressful.
Report about the map looks valid, please achieve a consensus with the community.
Topic Starter
Natsu wrote:
gonna bring my opinions on this as well:anyways gl with this
- 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc. The first click is following the same pattern as the notes before it. The 1/2 after it is following the fairly subtle 1/8 triple starting 00:26:645 - and ending 00:26:749 - and at the end of the slider. Because it'd be incredibly confusing and hard to play such a combination of clicks, it's a simple slider instead.
- 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) - This NC was purely for aesthetic reasons and for further emphasizing what made these four beats different. If it's directly unrankable, go call a QAT.
- 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones. The second one starts with the DJ scratches, the rest are all the same. Consistency issues like this are intended. You want my reasoning, you've got it. Now you can disagree with it and I'll be the one who's wrong.
- 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l Because the wacky slider is clearly following the scry. not every bass beat needs a click. (HEATHENRY, i know.)
- 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map. Originally, the "manual stacks" were different because I had a cohesive theme to the map. After the explosion of the kiai. the spacing was more rickety and less perfect because all of the energy of the song has been expended and it's now just falling apart as the song ends.
- Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >: name every single blanket and every single aesthetic change that provides no change to direct gameplay and i'll happily fix them if you offer to work with me to re-rank the map. Otherwise, it's clearly not important enough for either of us to get worked over on.
Shiirn, can you stop whining here, take a break, go outside, deep breath and come back later.
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/
Another problem here is that whenever Shiirn changes something, someone else said that the change was bad and would rather it be some other way, so there isn't really a middle ground which compromises with everyone. To be honest, I think people need to actually discuss with each other and make a general list of changes where the community have compromised with each other in the first place instead of all giving Shiirn mods which are contradicting each other.
tl;dr: Can everyone discuss suggestions instead of giving them to Shiirn here since it's clustered and contradictory lots of the time.
Tuning in with discussion now~
Edit: Nevermind he removed diffs
tl;dr: Can everyone discuss suggestions instead of giving them to Shiirn here since it's clustered and contradictory lots of the time.
Tuning in with discussion now~
Edit: Nevermind he removed diffs
Topic Starter
shARPII wrote:
Shiirn, can you stop whining here, take a break, go outside, deep breath and come back later.
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/
You have no idea how incredibly frustrating it is to deal with people who reject your opinions and feelings offhand because they simply believe they know better. That's literally the only rationale both sides have - "I feel it is better this way" - and because they err on the side of consistency and order, I'm automatically in the wrong.
moki_old_1
Hey Shiirn, mind putting back the diffs up so we can -try- and discuss this?
We might be able to narrow all these suggestions into something you can accept and we all agree on \o/
We might be able to narrow all these suggestions into something you can accept and we all agree on \o/
Topic Starter
Do what you like. I'll re-fill the set. I'm just so tired of explaining myself over and over only to be offhandedly brushed aside that I'm not going to bother anymore. Don't expect me to respond to every single little thing presented because that is nothing but a tactic to wear down my force of will and I'm tired of that tactic being allowed.
Hi! I didn't notice you here.moki wrote:
I liked every version of this mapset, thanks for spending your precious time on mapping this masterpiece.
Hm going from the average content of your posts here:
Are you satisfied with the Extra?
You said it doesnt feel like your map, but rather like a set of compromises sewn together to make a diff. There are people around here which are so confused about this that they are willing to go out of their way to spend their time wondering about this diff... And are met with the unwillingness to sew more compromises in, which is perfectly reasonable.
What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more
Are you satisfied with the Extra?
You said it doesnt feel like your map, but rather like a set of compromises sewn together to make a diff. There are people around here which are so confused about this that they are willing to go out of their way to spend their time wondering about this diff... And are met with the unwillingness to sew more compromises in, which is perfectly reasonable.
What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more
Anyone mind summarizing the main points into one post or something along those lines? All the mods are spread out everywhere it's hard to understand.
Topic Starter
Okorin wrote:
What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more
I'd basically need to remap the entire song at this point. But I can't remap the song with the same feelings and vision I had to begin with because Routing has functionally changed for me. It was originally a casual-fun track that was always able to get my blood flowing and my energy levels up because it's just so EXPLOSIVE with energy, especially during the kiai. But now I'm just reminded of all the frustration and exhaustion associated with trying to rank it every time I listen to the track.
The song isn't fun for me anymore. My original vision is long gone. I couldn't remap it if I tried. I desperately tried to protect Comfort much as possible, but Extra I just don't care about and it was always just filler to make the rest of the set rankable. I was much more willing to make compromises and sew shit together in the hopes of moving the map forward.
I'm here not to argue or something.... okay i actually like to argue.
I'm not yet checking the map tho, so i don't know if it's good or bad. But reading some comment in this thread, i can assume this map is averagely good. i do agree with Shiirn who want to keep the feel of the map. But most people here concerning to it's playability, which actually makes sense to argue IF it's actually hardly played by player.
Assuming Shiirn want to rank this, i'd like to join the disscussion (after i check this ofc) cause i found some ambigous word from each person.
I'm not yet checking the map tho, so i don't know if it's good or bad. But reading some comment in this thread, i can assume this map is averagely good. i do agree with Shiirn who want to keep the feel of the map. But most people here concerning to it's playability, which actually makes sense to argue IF it's actually hardly played by player.
Assuming Shiirn want to rank this, i'd like to join the disscussion (after i check this ofc) cause i found some ambigous word from each person.
Sounds like you're incredibly depressed for some reason. Don't let it affect too much or else, you might not enjoy mapping the way you intend to. It's true that today's communities don't treat this one as fun because most of the time, they are enjoying maps that gives high amount of pp (but in reality they have problems with enjoying the game, something that they give low rating to maps that barely give any pp). It's true that the perspective of people today is different from back then. However, there are still people today who don't care much about pp and those people are the one who really enjoy the game. I'm just sharing my opinion here so it's your deciscion if yould accept this or not.
I'm sorry if you can't understand something about what I said. I'm not used to write something like this considering my whole personality.
I'm sorry if you can't understand something about what I said. I'm not used to write something like this considering my whole personality.
Please, keep this topic under control. You're here to help the mapper, not for memes (which should be on reddit or OT, if it's a good one).
I'd like to add a map isn't only a community or a mapper choice but both.
You have to learn how to use your arguments and your POV to explain properly what is the meaning of something and why you did it. If you fail here, there's probably something wrong (using "X is better than Y" or "don't kill my spirit" excuses aren't helping)
If your explanation makes sense, there's no reason to see more than 50% of users who're writing on the topic being against your opinion.
Instead of taking mods from users like a personal attack, try to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand why they think something is wrong by looking at your map with different ways.
Anyway, maps have always been approved by the community (which were represented by QATs) so you'll have to deal with it.
Good luck.
I'd like to add a map isn't only a community or a mapper choice but both.
You have to learn how to use your arguments and your POV to explain properly what is the meaning of something and why you did it. If you fail here, there's probably something wrong (using "X is better than Y" or "don't kill my spirit" excuses aren't helping)
If your explanation makes sense, there's no reason to see more than 50% of users who're writing on the topic being against your opinion.
Instead of taking mods from users like a personal attack, try to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand why they think something is wrong by looking at your map with different ways.
Anyway, maps have always been approved by the community (which were represented by QATs) so you'll have to deal with it.
Good luck.
Glad to have this back. Let's hope that nothing goes wrong this time. Focus on the things that can help the mapper and not to cause more drama. I'll make sure to look on the map if possible.
Let's hope we can get some constructive comments again this time (unlike this post).
Will put my two cents later.
Will put my two cents later.
Keep in mind this "50%" refers to four people out of x number of overall users even if we just take into account the intended player base. I've been keeping up with this thread since shiirn mapped this (mostly since I had asked him to map this song) and for the most part these recent suggestions have all been things that have either been modified by previous suggestions or things that have been explained before. I'm on mobile atm so I can't offer much in terms of quotes and I'll try to do this when I get back from work but all in all these are mostly things that can be dismissed. No map is perfect and neither should our expectations because we're all human and we all make mistakes (see the many ranked maps with unrankable concerns) and that's fine so there's no reason for shiirn to have to keep justifying every object in his map. My reply was deleted but my points stand.
Not trying to start shit but why doesn't this apply to any HW maps?Loctav wrote:
Sadly, you have to make an agreement with the community, not with the QAT. They won't judge your map anymore. So better put the effort to convince people raising concerns here that this creation is fine as it is or do not try to get it Ranked.
I like this map a lot, I hate to see mappers forced to basically collab with strangers because of subjective matters. There are already tons of maps that are either turned into something completely out of the creators intention, or rotting in the graveyard, because mappers are basically forced to follow mods of the more expressive minority.
I skimmed the mods between the qualify and unqualified posts, and they're all mods that basically start with "well, to me, this is wrong..." This isn't what mapping is about. Mods should never be about trying to redesign somebody elses work, it should be about polishing it; catching out crap like snapping error or unintentional distance spikes.
Topic Starter
For what it's worth, the entire point of frustration on routing is that it has a lot of inconsistencies and quirks that are very obvious when modding the map and looking through it in the editor. This, combined with people combing through it at 25% and 50% speed just looking for things to point out, means that it's very, very easy to come up with a wall of text that I must them personally provide my feelings and opinions for, for every single point. This is extremely exhausting, especially considering Routing was entirely made to be intentionally inconsistent and partially "unpredictable" to fit with my vision of the music.
Nobody can deny that this track, from a musical and compositional standpoint, is weird. Camellia loves doing this kind of thing. He's very experienced and nuanced in his repeated musical patterns and how he ties them together during repeated sections and i try to represent this by having my own patterns follow his slightly different musical patterns. This does not always play well, especially not for people who are so, so, so used to boring anime and dnb tracks which have literally identical stanzas repeated 4-8 times. Camellia will have those same 4-8 stanzas start the same but connect to eachother slightly differently.
I have naught but circles, sliders, and two buttons to provide the player with this experience.
I am not taking any individual mod on this map as a personal attack, but rather as yet another bothersome chore that is being forced upon me because it basically forces me to either explain exhaustively these concepts I listed above to every single modder, as concisely as possible, every time. Can you seriously blame me for getting frustrated and stressed out? These concepts that I built Routing on, namely, intentional inconsistency and differing emphasis, are very easy to understand if people bother looking outside of their own comfort bubble. People are getting so worked up over how each individual tree looks that they're forgetting to look at the forest.
It's tiring and frustrating that people simply discard these concepts because they disagree with them, and I'm left with nothing to show for it. These are fairly advanced mapping concepts because they break the norms of "consistency mapping" (which I believe is a tool best used for newbie mappers before they start understanding how to actually map) and it's hard to explain it in bite-sized chunks for every single modder who happens to play the map like, twice.
I understand people are genuinely trying to help and that they genuinely feel like their suggestions may posit some improvement, but they really didn't in the past, and really won't in the future. Sure there are a lot that helped, but as an experienced mapper I like to pretend that I should be allowed some leeway in knowing what to accept and what to decline. I have tried time and time and time and time again to explain how I feel and how each individual working piece of the map works with others, only to have it discarded or ignored because the person I am trying to meet halfway either disagrees with the very concept or doesn't understand.
I'm just not willing to go out of my way to extend the hand of common ground on this only for them to slap my hand away without even bothering to try and see things my way just as much as I try to see things their way.
I'm not going to bother searching out QAT or BN to re-qualify this map anymore because it's fucking insane that I can spend dozens and dozens of hours working and discussing this map with dozens of people and have the entire thing shut down by a few handful of inexperienced or narrow-minded individuals. It's a massive waste of time and effort and I hope everyone who has refused to even begin to try and understand my feelings is proud of themselves for upholding their precious worldview.
If you're still reading by this point you have my utmost thanks and respect.
I'm not even asking for people to just let me do what I want. I want to discuss things rationally and in depth because that is fun. It is fun to me to discuss mapping concepts and what people are trying to do with their maps and what they're trying to do by fiddling around with patterns or hitsounds or spacing or choice of circle vs slider or beat emphasis. But it's not fun when people are attacking my map whilst constantly asking why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why because that puts all of the effort on me, the mapper, and that's not fair.
Thank you for all the support, and thank you for any constructive criticism. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm perfectly fine with how this turned out. I'm really let down by the immediate vile response, but also very uplifted by the support shown to me directly. But I'm not going to stop mapping and I'm not going to stop making maps with concepts beyond the newbie mapper toolkit of "consistency and flow".
This is my last major post unless a BN or QAT or some combination thereof is willing to push this back into qualification, and they're going to need to come to me to start it up, which isn't likely going to happen so this is likely the end.
Nobody can deny that this track, from a musical and compositional standpoint, is weird. Camellia loves doing this kind of thing. He's very experienced and nuanced in his repeated musical patterns and how he ties them together during repeated sections and i try to represent this by having my own patterns follow his slightly different musical patterns. This does not always play well, especially not for people who are so, so, so used to boring anime and dnb tracks which have literally identical stanzas repeated 4-8 times. Camellia will have those same 4-8 stanzas start the same but connect to eachother slightly differently.
I have naught but circles, sliders, and two buttons to provide the player with this experience.
I am not taking any individual mod on this map as a personal attack, but rather as yet another bothersome chore that is being forced upon me because it basically forces me to either explain exhaustively these concepts I listed above to every single modder, as concisely as possible, every time. Can you seriously blame me for getting frustrated and stressed out? These concepts that I built Routing on, namely, intentional inconsistency and differing emphasis, are very easy to understand if people bother looking outside of their own comfort bubble. People are getting so worked up over how each individual tree looks that they're forgetting to look at the forest.
It's tiring and frustrating that people simply discard these concepts because they disagree with them, and I'm left with nothing to show for it. These are fairly advanced mapping concepts because they break the norms of "consistency mapping" (which I believe is a tool best used for newbie mappers before they start understanding how to actually map) and it's hard to explain it in bite-sized chunks for every single modder who happens to play the map like, twice.
I understand people are genuinely trying to help and that they genuinely feel like their suggestions may posit some improvement, but they really didn't in the past, and really won't in the future. Sure there are a lot that helped, but as an experienced mapper I like to pretend that I should be allowed some leeway in knowing what to accept and what to decline. I have tried time and time and time and time again to explain how I feel and how each individual working piece of the map works with others, only to have it discarded or ignored because the person I am trying to meet halfway either disagrees with the very concept or doesn't understand.
I'm just not willing to go out of my way to extend the hand of common ground on this only for them to slap my hand away without even bothering to try and see things my way just as much as I try to see things their way.
I'm not going to bother searching out QAT or BN to re-qualify this map anymore because it's fucking insane that I can spend dozens and dozens of hours working and discussing this map with dozens of people and have the entire thing shut down by a few handful of inexperienced or narrow-minded individuals. It's a massive waste of time and effort and I hope everyone who has refused to even begin to try and understand my feelings is proud of themselves for upholding their precious worldview.
If you're still reading by this point you have my utmost thanks and respect.
I'm not even asking for people to just let me do what I want. I want to discuss things rationally and in depth because that is fun. It is fun to me to discuss mapping concepts and what people are trying to do with their maps and what they're trying to do by fiddling around with patterns or hitsounds or spacing or choice of circle vs slider or beat emphasis. But it's not fun when people are attacking my map whilst constantly asking why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why because that puts all of the effort on me, the mapper, and that's not fair.
Thank you for all the support, and thank you for any constructive criticism. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm perfectly fine with how this turned out. I'm really let down by the immediate vile response, but also very uplifted by the support shown to me directly. But I'm not going to stop mapping and I'm not going to stop making maps with concepts beyond the newbie mapper toolkit of "consistency and flow".
This is my last major post unless a BN or QAT or some combination thereof is willing to push this back into qualification, and they're going to need to come to me to start it up, which isn't likely going to happen so this is likely the end.
After reading all this I'll probably not try to rank a map ever again with these new "'community-driven" checks nobody ever wanted and nobody asked for. Seeing how ranking your map is already a very long and hard process since BNs are scarce, busy and have long queues, especially if you are an unknown mapper, the tiny amount of effort it takes for anyone to be able to DQ a map just so you can repeat the whole cycle again is just outright stupid.
Tbh this would prob get DQ-ed either way from the same things, people do spam mods, QATs get attention, DQ for same reason.
No difference really \o/
No difference really \o/
Community-driven checks are not wrong, it's that the vocal community that are doing these "checks" have the wrong mindset. The vast majority of modders are people that cannot play the map as it is intended, and so can only judge a map through editor, which is a lot different than actually playing the map and actually EXPERIENCING it.Voli wrote:
After reading all this I'll probably not try to rank a map ever again with these new "'community-driven" checks nobody ever wanted and nobody asked for. Seeing how ranking your map is already a very long and hard process, especially if you are an unknown mapper, the tiny amount of effort it takes for anyone to be able to DQ a map is just outright stupid.
The community that we (I) want to do these checks are the people that actually play the map, so basically the top players who can comfortably complete this map. Those are the only opinions that really matter, in my eyes.
It's like letting other countries vote for the next US president; those countries aren't the ones that are affected as greatly as the US, so their opinion is much less regarded (as in they can't vote)
I agree, they are not wrong, but with the current system of ''any complaints are DQ-worthy so we can discuss first, then have fun repeating the cycle again'' it just doesn't feel worth it anymore to try to rank a map. It causes stress, worry and anger more than it has positive sides. If there was a quick way to instantly re-rank a map without having to go through all this bullshit every time, maybe then it would work.a loli wrote:
Community-driven checks are not wrong, it's that the vocal community that are doing these "checks" have the wrong mindset. Looking at a map through editor is a lot different than actually playing the map, which is the problem with difficult maps; most of the modders can't play the map as it is intended so they base all their claims in the editor.
All this leads to is a chain of "have-to-do" mods, giving an end result of a map that doesn't in the slightest resemble the original.Voli wrote:
I agree, they are not wrong, but with the current system of ''any complaints are DQ-worthy so we can discuss first, then have fun repeating the cycle again'' it just doesn't feel worth it anymore to try to rank a map. It causes stress, worry and anger more than it has positive sides. If there was a quick way to instantly re-rank a map without having to go through all this bullshit every time, maybe then it would work.
maps that come up at the top of my head are tengaku and toumei elegy
And see THIS is the problem. Things like this happen so often that creators are just simply discouraged and the map is left to grave meanwhile the people that caused it can go on their merry way and qats just say oh well no skin off my nose \:v/ or however that saying goes. Nothing changes and nothing will change at this rate. Safe "consistent" and "flowy" maps get ranked all the time because they're not wrong but does that immediately make maps that lack some of one or the other wrong? No and that is where the problem begins. Everyone conforms to a kind of map and expect all others to be just like it because it works but by only doing that you take away creativity all for the sake of ranking just to qualify to the "community standards "
I don't want you to give up on this shiirn but I can support if you truly feel this way and leave it up to your decision.
I don't want you to give up on this shiirn but I can support if you truly feel this way and leave it up to your decision.
That is correct. Also the whole concept of ''coming to a concencus with the community'' isn't thought through at all since the community obviously has varying opinions seeing as it consists of completely random players, each with their own opinions. Seeing this, it is impossible to come to a good ''concensus with the community'' without transforming your map into an everchanging mess of clashing opinions. Every map has people who like and dislike it.a loli wrote:
All this leads to is a chain of "have-to-do" mods, giving an end result of a map that doesn't in the slightest resemble the original.
maps that come up at the top of my head are tengaku and toumei elegy
I think I'm done here, don't want to ramble more in a map's thread. I just felt like someone had to say it.
I just don't see why people can't adapt to the community, there are songs that I don't particularly enjoy playing, then I do not play them, simple as that.
Sucks to see this cool map go into the grave much like a lot of the other great maps in this game. I hope for the sake of not only Shiirn but the rest of the community as well that this sort of "no, that is your interpretation of a map, that's not good enough for the masses"-thinking stops. It's hurting the entire community, it would have been nice to have a nice breath of fresh air coming into the game since we really haven't had any controversial maps getting ranked in standard for a long time.
Sucks to see this cool map go into the grave much like a lot of the other great maps in this game. I hope for the sake of not only Shiirn but the rest of the community as well that this sort of "no, that is your interpretation of a map, that's not good enough for the masses"-thinking stops. It's hurting the entire community, it would have been nice to have a nice breath of fresh air coming into the game since we really haven't had any controversial maps getting ranked in standard for a long time.
I honestly feel like the one at fault for the current state of the beatmap is the community rather than Shiirn, I bet Shiirn wants to make as many people as possible satisfied, but that's not really possible for this one.
It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.
Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.
Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.
It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.
Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.
Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.
I couldn't have read every post in this thread as right now I'm kinda too busy trying to be not busy, this post has gotten my attention; and for a good reason. This is a well made post that I completely agree with. With current mindset of "mappers" or "modders" its very hard to achieve such a system.Avishay wrote:
I honestly feel like the one at fault for the current state of the beatmap is the community rather than Shiirn, I bet Shiirn wants to make as many people as possible satisfied, but that's not really possible for this one.
It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.
Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.
Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.
And worst of all; the more popular map is, higher the chances more people will hate on it. And it will get to a point where you can't satisfy ANYONE; yet alone everyone. I hope a change happens soon or else things are looking in vain.
What happened to the whole "If you don't like a map, dont play it" argument?
It got debunked, along with:
"You don't need to be a chef to say the food is bad."
"You don't need to be a chef to say the food is bad."
Im glad Shiirn chooses to keep this map the way it is.
This is how he sees the song. No reason to change it into something totally different just because people disagree with his views.
Just leave it as unranked if no one's gonna re-qualify it. It's fine that way. The people who can play it and enjoy the playing experience don't really need it ranked anyways. Pretty sure they'll rather have an enjoyable unranked map that follows a certain mapper's view compared to a ranked map that is a mess of different ideas from the "community" mashed into it just to get it ranked.
Plz don't turn this map into one of the latter.
This is how he sees the song. No reason to change it into something totally different just because people disagree with his views.
Just leave it as unranked if no one's gonna re-qualify it. It's fine that way. The people who can play it and enjoy the playing experience don't really need it ranked anyways. Pretty sure they'll rather have an enjoyable unranked map that follows a certain mapper's view compared to a ranked map that is a mess of different ideas from the "community" mashed into it just to get it ranked.
Plz don't turn this map into one of the latter.
I think it's nice that people are agreeing with Shiirn here, even if the post isn't a mod. Players are voicing their dissent by posting all sorts of different flow and consistency related mods, but I think that if it becomes clear that a large enough portion of the community is ok with the map as it is then I think it can be qualified again and perhaps ranked.
Even if other parts of the community don't want Routing to be ranked because it isn't the conventional jump-and-stream mapping... well, since when has a map had to placate the ENTIRETY of the community to be ranked? I think if there are enough people who understand and support the map then that's enough. Anyways, I don't think mods discussing specific parts of the map will be helpful because such things aren't the problem here; the problem is an ideological one that in my opinion can only be solved by a discussion such as this. Anything less will result in dissatisfaction on one if not both sides.
Having said that
Extra
00:59:353 (4,5,6) - requires insane control and velocity change, especially considering the direction the cursor is coming in at from the previous (3) slider. i get that inconsistency is a theme in this map but this part is so much harder than the rest of the map; i think there should be SOME consistency when it comes to patterns and difficulty.
01:35:707 (5,1,2,3) - not sure if anybody else had this problem but this is bizarre rhythmic/spacing choice and it's very hard to read. that would be fine, but there's nothing else of the sort in any other part of the map, and again i think there should be SOME consistency in the map
these are the two things that stood out to me the most, everything else is perfect imo
Even if other parts of the community don't want Routing to be ranked because it isn't the conventional jump-and-stream mapping... well, since when has a map had to placate the ENTIRETY of the community to be ranked? I think if there are enough people who understand and support the map then that's enough. Anyways, I don't think mods discussing specific parts of the map will be helpful because such things aren't the problem here; the problem is an ideological one that in my opinion can only be solved by a discussion such as this. Anything less will result in dissatisfaction on one if not both sides.
Having said that
Extra
00:59:353 (4,5,6) - requires insane control and velocity change, especially considering the direction the cursor is coming in at from the previous (3) slider. i get that inconsistency is a theme in this map but this part is so much harder than the rest of the map; i think there should be SOME consistency when it comes to patterns and difficulty.
01:35:707 (5,1,2,3) - not sure if anybody else had this problem but this is bizarre rhythmic/spacing choice and it's very hard to read. that would be fine, but there's nothing else of the sort in any other part of the map, and again i think there should be SOME consistency in the map
these are the two things that stood out to me the most, everything else is perfect imo
Yeah this map is very controversial and became a clusterfuck of discussion for the new community-involved rankings and actual suggestions for the map itself
I've had a look at the map and some of the thread (I'm too lazy to read all of those walls) and came to the conclusion that this map is like a wild thought you have but can't explain to someone else and you're stuck between reciving "useless" help that doesn't really, well, help and tryng to materialize your idea as best as you can.
Shiirin said that the idea this song wants to represent is a fun track with a wild adrenaline rush in the kiai, hence the weird flow, the exagerated/unconsistent spacing and other things everyone seems to be fussing about. Those are intentional and aren't the problem. Ranking this map is (from a BN/QAT point of view) like tryng to fit a piece of modern art into an 1800 art exhibition, no matter how you look at it, they're too different and just aren't made to go togheter. This map is more like an idea made into a map and the ""normal"" ranked maps are, well, just circles placed to the beat
I will drop my piece of opinion about the Discomfort diff, be it ignored or not by the mapper:
00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - I get what you're tryng to represent here and it's a good concept, but you can still keep the feeling AND nerf the jump to make it more playable.
01:13:311 to 01:25:290 - I love this part, the climax with the bigger spacing feels awesome and fits very well into the song, but 01:26:645 this next part is a little less lively yet you've kept similar spacing and difficulty, which in my opinion should be lowered to go along better with the song
These advices are really vague and would require, if applied, a partial re-map of those sections (which I can tell by your other posts aren't willing to do) but even if applied wouldn't "fix" the map from a technical point of view, it's still awkward with all the spacing/flow "issues"
I've had a look at the map and some of the thread (I'm too lazy to read all of those walls) and came to the conclusion that this map is like a wild thought you have but can't explain to someone else and you're stuck between reciving "useless" help that doesn't really, well, help and tryng to materialize your idea as best as you can.
Shiirin said that the idea this song wants to represent is a fun track with a wild adrenaline rush in the kiai, hence the weird flow, the exagerated/unconsistent spacing and other things everyone seems to be fussing about. Those are intentional and aren't the problem. Ranking this map is (from a BN/QAT point of view) like tryng to fit a piece of modern art into an 1800 art exhibition, no matter how you look at it, they're too different and just aren't made to go togheter. This map is more like an idea made into a map and the ""normal"" ranked maps are, well, just circles placed to the beat
I will drop my piece of opinion about the Discomfort diff, be it ignored or not by the mapper:
00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - I get what you're tryng to represent here and it's a good concept, but you can still keep the feeling AND nerf the jump to make it more playable.
01:13:311 to 01:25:290 - I love this part, the climax with the bigger spacing feels awesome and fits very well into the song, but 01:26:645 this next part is a little less lively yet you've kept similar spacing and difficulty, which in my opinion should be lowered to go along better with the song
These advices are really vague and would require, if applied, a partial re-map of those sections (which I can tell by your other posts aren't willing to do) but even if applied wouldn't "fix" the map from a technical point of view, it's still awkward with all the spacing/flow "issues"
Topic Starter
Forlornly wrote:
Having said that
Extra
00:59:353 (4,5,6) - requires insane control and velocity change, especially considering the direction the cursor is coming in at from the previous (3) slider. i get that inconsistency is a theme in this map but this part is so much harder than the rest of the map; i think there should be SOME consistency when it comes to patterns and difficulty. ( 00:59:353 (4,5) - were originally in a position closer to THIS, which I feel is much more sensible with the pattern, but it got complaints about "flow" because it's a 4,5 being fairly close together with a large jump to 6 without it being big enough to "feel" like a jump. This is one of those "Fixes" I'm happy to undo and return to its original state - but I don't always remember exactly what I did originally until someone points it out.
01:35:707 (5,1,2,3) - not sure if anybody else had this problem but this is bizarre rhythmic/spacing choice and it's very hard to read. that would be fine, but there's nothing else of the sort in any other part of the map, and again i think there should be SOME consistency in the map This is the end of the entire section and the departure of the vocals, and they follow the vocals in a very off-beat way. This is very bizarre to play, but that's intended. On Discomfort, it plays differently because the song continues the (much easier to follow) repeated click pattern. On extra, it's purely off-beat but also requires little to no movement, so it's a different sort of challenge I guess. not entirely sure what to do to extra because it's such a mess now.
these are the two things that stood out to me the most, everything else is perfect imo
Chyo-Kun wrote:
I will drop my piece of opinion about the Discomfort diff, be it ignored or not by the mapper:
00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - I get what you're tryng to represent here and it's a good concept, but you can still keep the feeling AND nerf the jump to make it more playable. The big issue with doing any sort of spacing nerf here is that the movements lose context due to all of the notes (except 4) being on previous notes. (1 used to be underneath 00:12:270 (4) - ). The spacing is ridiculous, I totally agree, and it fits what I'm trying to do, but is just a bit crazy big. But I can't shrink it either without completely restructuring the pattern. I'll probably fiddle with this some more one day, but today is not that day.
01:13:311 to 01:25:290 - I love this part, the climax with the bigger spacing feels awesome and fits very well into the song, but 01:26:645 this next part is a little less lively yet you've kept similar spacing and difficulty, which in my opinion should be lowered to go along better with the song Due to how the song is structured, decreasing the spacing of things such as 01:27:061 (3,5,7) - would also necessitate the movement or re-structuring of 01:27:999 (2,4) - , 01:28:728 (4,6) - , 01:29:353 (1,3) - , I think you get the picture. The spacing is, indeed, large, but in a different vein from the burst of the first kiai because the second one alternates very quickly between sliders and circles, rather than the first kiai's nearly PURE circles, so the actual difficulty is lower due to the lower click density. This is one of those "It looks like the spacing is the same in editor" but "actually plays much easier" situations. I really appreciate how you noticed this, though, as it gives me a chance to explain my reasoning as to why I chose to keep such ridiculous-at-a-glance spacing.
These advices are really vague and would require, if applied, a partial re-map of those sections (which I can tell by your other posts aren't willing to do) but even if applied wouldn't "fix" the map from a technical point of view, it's still awkward with all the spacing/flow "issues"
want me to remod this when i get home
Topic Starter
not really.
Topic Starter
In accordance with this post, I've made the changes forcibly recommended by the disqualifying opinion presented in the box below.
Namely, the only thing I am willing to directly accept is the removal of new combos and any sort of "polishing pass" done to make blankets neater, parallel things parallel, etc etc. 00:26:540 (2,3) - has also been changed to a single slider against my actual wishes but because I simply don't give a shit anymore, fuck it let's change it.
This is a formal post requesting Natsu's, or any active BN's, cooperation. If Dis/Comfort is still an unrankable issue, I will remove it if said BNs are willing to rank the rest of the set as-is.
This is as plain and clear as I can possibly make the ranking process. Since it is very clear that Natsu specifically takes issue with the map, perhaps a direct session with Natsu, publicly shown, would be the best way to go over Extra and how every single object ties together. I think it would look very bad on anyone's reputation if they were to simply appear when a map gets qualified to DQ it and then simply have nothing to do with it until it is qualified again.
I am fully prepared to do the same for Discomfort if the chance is so presented, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
Namely, the only thing I am willing to directly accept is the removal of new combos and any sort of "polishing pass" done to make blankets neater, parallel things parallel, etc etc. 00:26:540 (2,3) - has also been changed to a single slider against my actual wishes but because I simply don't give a shit anymore, fuck it let's change it.
This is a formal post requesting Natsu's, or any active BN's, cooperation. If Dis/Comfort is still an unrankable issue, I will remove it if said BNs are willing to rank the rest of the set as-is.
This is as plain and clear as I can possibly make the ranking process. Since it is very clear that Natsu specifically takes issue with the map, perhaps a direct session with Natsu, publicly shown, would be the best way to go over Extra and how every single object ties together. I think it would look very bad on anyone's reputation if they were to simply appear when a map gets qualified to DQ it and then simply have nothing to do with it until it is qualified again.
I am fully prepared to do the same for Discomfort if the chance is so presented, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
stuff
Shiirn wrote:
Natsu wrote:
gonna bring my opinions on this as well:anyways gl with this
- 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc. The first click is following the same pattern as the notes before it. The 1/2 after it is following the fairly subtle 1/8 triple starting 00:26:645 - and ending 00:26:749 - and at the end of the slider. Because it'd be incredibly confusing and hard to play such a combination of clicks, it's a simple slider instead.
- 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) - This NC was purely for aesthetic reasons and for further emphasizing what made these four beats different. If it's directly unrankable, go call a QAT.
- 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones. The second one starts with the DJ scratches, the rest are all the same. Consistency issues like this are intended. You want my reasoning, you've got it. Now you can disagree with it and I'll be the one who's wrong.
- 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l Because the wacky slider is clearly following the scry. not every bass beat needs a click. (HEATHENRY, i know.)
- 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map. Originally, the "manual stacks" were different because I had a cohesive theme to the map. After the explosion of the kiai. the spacing was more rickety and less perfect because all of the energy of the song has been expended and it's now just falling apart as the song ends.
- Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >: name every single blanket and every single aesthetic change that provides no change to direct gameplay and i'll happily fix them if you offer to work with me to re-rank the map. Otherwise, it's clearly not important enough for either of us to get worked over on.
Shiiirn I'm willing to go deep checking this map, but promise to take suggestion with open mind, also why is the 7 Stars difficulty back? wasn't that difficulty the reason of the first DQ: p/4896264
If you are going to work with me in a polite and calm way, I'll be glad to help you to move this forward and getting an agreement with you. Anyways send me a pm or post in the thread.
Edit: see that's the attitude that I don't like from you, can we talk like adults that we are? isn't that hard to explain your way in a calm way? I'll be back in like 8 hours, so poke me in game if you are open to discuss there.
If you are going to work with me in a polite and calm way, I'll be glad to help you to move this forward and getting an agreement with you. Anyways send me a pm or post in the thread.
Edit: see that's the attitude that I don't like from you, can we talk like adults that we are? isn't that hard to explain your way in a calm way? I'll be back in like 8 hours, so poke me in game if you are open to discuss there.
Topic Starter
The difficulty is back because people wanted to see it. Millhiore has also given his blessing for Comfort specifically as of like more than a month ago, but if that's irrelevant due to your same "but diff between extra and comfort!", I'll just delete it again.
I'm willing to change every single thing you list, whether I personally agree or not, just to save us both some time and effort from all the arguing.
I'm willing to change every single thing you list, whether I personally agree or not, just to save us both some time and effort from all the arguing.
guys chill
i actually really enjoy discomfort but that's just my worthless opinion OpieOP
As far as I know and what I can see from this, Shiirn didn't enjoy trying to rank this set, and if the creator doesn't enjoy ranking it, then theres no point in doing so. All I saw was Shiirn trying to rank this set for my diff's sake, which I'm really happy about, but at the same time upset because he didn't enjoy doing it. All I wanted was to enjoy making this set along with the others who participated in putting the set together, but it seems players didn't enjoy it. No problem with that.
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
Toumei Elegy 2.0
No room for your own personal preferences. Not even in your own maps. This is how I like it. Keep it up boys.
No room for your own personal preferences. Not even in your own maps. This is how I like it. Keep it up boys.
Problem with modding v2 is that its gonna have a lot more of people's opinion. Its gonna go back and forth with agreements and disagreements, until they come to a consensus and find the map entirely different, which is against the mapper's will, which is what kind of happened here.Monstrata wrote:
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
I don't know if its just me and my stupid thinking, I also think that Modding v2 might bring it into a new direction and change things, but will it actually be for the better? If you could, shine some light on me. I'm probably not thinking about Modding v2 correctly.
I am pretty sure you are one of the few, who are thinking correctly with this one.Ongaku wrote:
Problem with modding v2 is that its gonna have a lot more of people's opinion. Its gonna go back and forth with agreements and disagreements, until they come to a consensus and find the map entirely different, which is against the mapper's will, which is what kind of happened here.Monstrata wrote:
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
I don't know if its just me and my stupid thinking, I also think that Modding v2 might bring it into a new direction and change things, but will it actually be for the better? If you could, shine some light on me. I'm probably not thinking about Modding v2 correctly.
More community-open -> more opinions -> more disagreements/more discussion -> more frustration for mapper because he has to accept even more things he personally disagrees with.
shARPII wrote:
Ok guys this isn't the place for a thesis about the importance of users in mappers choices.
If you want to run something more serious, create a topic here and discuss freely : 56
I'll start to remove content which aren't mods for this specific map (or helping this map) under this post.
It will certainly help with a lot of things, but also cause more confusion with others.What everyone said about modding v2 wrote:
<stuff>
Likewise, moddingv2 helps with the maps that have "few things which are discussable" but in this case there are a lot of flying opinions about a lot things and the clustering of information and opinions won't exactly be any different, just presented nicer.
Edit: Oops offtopic sry
Hmm... I wouldn't think of moddingv2 like that. I don't think there's a necessity to change your map in order to appease every member of the community. I was thinking more in the lines of having some way to document one's reasoning for certain patterns and why one is unwilling to change them. It seems a better option than having to explain your reasoning again and again because people aren't reading up on previous mod posts/replies.
Regarding rhythm, Discomfort looks/sounds on point and the map is for itself reasonable
fuck y'all, you forgot what this game is about, let Shiirn do his thing
fuck y'all, you forgot what this game is about, let Shiirn do his thing
Yet the opinion of a few members of the community is all it took to redq it.Monstrata wrote:
Hmm... I wouldn't think of moddingv2 like that. I don't think there's a necessity to change your map in order to appease every member of the community. I was thinking more in the lines of having some way to document one's reasoning for certain patterns and why one is unwilling to change them. It seems a better option than having to explain your reasoning again and again because people aren't reading up on previous mod posts/replies.
Just gonna throw it out there that I found both [Comfort] and honestly, especially [Unrankable] very fun. As someone who alternates, it's a joy to play, even though it's incredibly difficult. I really don't think it needed many changes, because nitpicking minor things in a crazy map like that is like trying to use white-out to cover up certain portions of a mural. Why even bother? It's pointless and you're just heavily damaging something which was beautiful on its own. Really, players who lack the ability to alternate or singletap extremely quickly don't have much place commenting on this map, as it's meant for alting, in the same way Everything Went Numb, Scarlet Rose, and Meikaruza are. It's not playable for the majority of the playerbase simply because it's not their playstyle, and on top of that, it's unquestionably the hardest alternating map I've seen hit qualified. Honestly, in my personal opinion, it should be rolled back to an earlier iteration and modding should be redone from there, but I doubt that will happen based on Shiirn's current emotional state regarding the set. Everyone really should stop being a pain in the ass about this. The game is about fun, not about ruining that of everyone else.
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
My only actual beef with it at this point is "holy shit OD9.7 jesus christ"
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
My only actual beef with it at this point is "holy shit OD9.7 jesus christ"
As quoted from Shiirn:Moosqueak wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there that I found both [Comfort] and honestly, especially [Unrankable] very fun. As someone who alternates, it's a joy to play, even though it's incredibly difficult. I really don't think it needed many changes, because nitpicking minor things in a crazy map like that is like trying to use white-out to cover up certain portions of a mural. Why even bother? It's pointless and you're just heavily damaging something which was beautiful on its own. Really, players who lack the ability to alternate or singletap extremely quickly don't have much place commenting on this map, as it's meant for alting, in the same way Everything Went Numb, Scarlet Rose, and Meikaruza are. It's not playable for the majority of the playerbase simply because it's not their playstyle, and on top of that, it's unquestionably the hardest alternating map I've seen hit qualified. Honestly, in my personal opinion, it should be rolled back to an earlier iteration and modding should be redone from there, but I doubt that will happen based on Shiirn's current emotional state regarding the set. Everyone really should stop being a pain in the ass about this. The game is about fun, not about ruining that of everyone else.
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
"They just aren't ready yet"
Topic Starter
I am satisfied with how Comfort is right now. All that I think it really needs is someone to help me polish it up a bit. I have been satisfied with it since soon after the first DQ, when it received a minor visual and directional overhaul, but no BN or QAT is willing to rank it.
Extra was and currently is the problem, as it is an utter mess that has been torn apart three separate times: Right before qualification, where I needed to arbitrarily increase circle spacing so as to bump the star rating from 5.13 to 5.5 whilst barely making the map any harder, right after qualification, when I was balancing it to be more of a mediary between Insane and Comfort, and then after I dumped Comfort when it became clear that without Millhiore's say so nobody would be willing to qualify it, I tried to make Extra more of a standalone difficulty.
It was always meant to tie Insane and Comfort together, and with Comfort being gone, it lost a lot of context, which lead to confusing moments for modders where it's like "why don't you have a click here?", "well when Comfort was there all of those beats had clicks but Extra is less dense for the sake of ease of play" doesn't make sense when Comfort no longer exists.
This can be circularly discussed for days, if not weeks, without a consensus being reached. This is the kind of map that I really felt only really needed some polishing mods and moving into ranking, disagreements about the concept be damned. It's pointless unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel, which the current mapping climate has convinced me does not exist.
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
Extra was and currently is the problem, as it is an utter mess that has been torn apart three separate times: Right before qualification, where I needed to arbitrarily increase circle spacing so as to bump the star rating from 5.13 to 5.5 whilst barely making the map any harder, right after qualification, when I was balancing it to be more of a mediary between Insane and Comfort, and then after I dumped Comfort when it became clear that without Millhiore's say so nobody would be willing to qualify it, I tried to make Extra more of a standalone difficulty.
It was always meant to tie Insane and Comfort together, and with Comfort being gone, it lost a lot of context, which lead to confusing moments for modders where it's like "why don't you have a click here?", "well when Comfort was there all of those beats had clicks but Extra is less dense for the sake of ease of play" doesn't make sense when Comfort no longer exists.
This can be circularly discussed for days, if not weeks, without a consensus being reached. This is the kind of map that I really felt only really needed some polishing mods and moving into ranking, disagreements about the concept be damned. It's pointless unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel, which the current mapping climate has convinced me does not exist.
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
ah, I'm watching the feedback from other players, I do not know if you're ignoring because of bad mods, or unnecessary quotes, or ignorance on their part, finally I'm doing a mod in my point of view, that can really improve (if you want).
Discomfort
Anyway joking aside, you realize how much of mods you can get? damn, at a time like, it was for your map is RANKED, but because of their many arguments to keep some conflicts, it is so obvious, it is clear that this proportion reached where your map takes more than 2 dq, it's funny .. I do not know if most of the mods it was by own will (like mine) members, or it was by pv, #modreqs, etc. If by own will can be sure that the intention of the more experienced to less experienced, was exactly help you solve it, so just take it in mind.
ah I spent 1-2 hours to see these small conflicts and explain
Have a good night!
Extra
- 00:14:978 (1) - you could give stack with 00:14:561 (7) - reinforces the steady rhythm that will come, besides being no-aesthetic without her location, right?
- I think that the distance from the end of 00:15:499 (4) - to the 00:15:811 (5) - is high but I believe that the overlap of them are pretty ugly i can give a suggestion: http://puu.sh/oEkCm.jpg
- 00:15:811 (5,6) - can be symetrical?
- 00:16:436 (3) - kinda.. obvious to fix the distance of that note in relation to the others, right?
- 00:16:853 (1) - i think you can replace for 2 sliders 1/4 with reverse, for more emphasis? Bring more energy > http://puu.sh/oEl93.jpg.
- 00:17:270 (3,4,6) - recently, a map has taken dq, precisely because of the overlap of these notes, the better fix before someone report this and be the cause of a future dq.
- 00:18:311 (1,2) - ok, its a really high distance of 1/2 144 bpm(sound like a slow beat) rythm.
- 00:18:103 (6) - replace for 2 single notes, to emphasis this part. ( hear 00:18:103 - 00:18:207 - )
- 00:23:520 (1) - you can remove reverse arrow e add 3 notes to emphasize?
- 00:30:186 (6) - same^
- 00:29:145 (5) - ah.. thats tense, particularly you could change the direction of this to not be retarded.
- 00:31:332 (3) - same thing about this 00:18:103 (6) -
- 00:45:811 (4,1) - sounds like a discomfort pattern, too distant? i don't know.
- 00:47:061 (4,5) - eeh. ds beetween this notes its high to 1/4 selection( i know, its 144 bpm).
- 00:47:895 (7,8) - ^ same
- 00:54:978 (1) - i guess this slider fit better be 1/2 and not 1/1
- you can replace this 1/4 triples ( 01:18:520 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ) for something like that http://puu.sh/oEmSM.jpg
- 01:16:124 (3,1) - suggestion > http://puu.sh/oEn45.jpg
- 01:28:103 (8) - nc here for alert this 1/4 jump.
- 01:28:624 - you miss a strong beat here.
- 01:31:332 (2,1) - This Distance beetween this notes its ankward higher. ( you have a nice argument to keep it? haha)
- 01:35:395 (3,4) - ^ same.
- 01:37:270 (2,1) - ^
- 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - this notes It seems to have been placed randomly. you can make "shiirn cooler triangles" on this part http://puu.sh/oEnIk.jpg
- Alternatively titled "Shiirn's Experiments With Blanketing!" .
- 00:01:645 (1,5) -
- 00:07:895 (5,1,5) -
- 00:17:165 (1,4) -
- 00:29:145 (5,3) -
- 00:36:089 (5,6) -
- 01:44:561 (2,1,5) -
- 01:52:686 (2,1) -
- First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is
perfectlyfunctional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all,your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.
Anyway joking aside, you realize how much of mods you can get? damn, at a time like, it was for your map is RANKED, but because of their many arguments to keep some conflicts, it is so obvious, it is clear that this proportion reached where your map takes more than 2 dq, it's funny .. I do not know if most of the mods it was by own will (like mine) members, or it was by pv, #modreqs, etc. If by own will can be sure that the intention of the more experienced to less experienced, was exactly help you solve it, so just take it in mind.
Have a good night!
You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.
Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.
I don't get what's wrong with this. Why was it DQ'd? This is perfectly playable (albeit insanely hard) and it's even well done.
opinions were shotShiro wrote:
I don't get what's wrong with this. Why was it DQ'd? This is perfectly playable (albeit insanely hard) and it's even well done.
Topic Starter
Ongaku, I renamed Comfort to Discomfort when I readded it. Current Discomfort = Post-DQ Comfort.
WwwwwwwwShiirn wrote:
Ongaku, I renamed Comfort to Discomfort when I readded it. Current Discomfort = Post-DQ Comfort.
I got trolled
Topic Starter
And for anyone not in the know, Kalindraz' discomfort thing was basically a copy-paste of my mod on xexxar's my hero diff.
And I'm not going to bother going over every individual note presented because fuck that. 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - are also basically random but blanketed on purpose, what's the problem with that? I will look over the blanket issues but giving a glance over what you've linked i can safely say 90% of it is denied as this map is long beyond accepting completely remapped patterns given to me as "suggestions" because that shit is what ruined it in the first place.
And I'm not going to bother going over every individual note presented because fuck that. 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - are also basically random but blanketed on purpose, what's the problem with that? I will look over the blanket issues but giving a glance over what you've linked i can safely say 90% of it is denied as this map is long beyond accepting completely remapped patterns given to me as "suggestions" because that shit is what ruined it in the first place.
So you guys are still going to rank this, or you will continue doing useless post, If so I'm there in game, you can poke me anytime.Ongaku wrote:
You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.
Edit: ew, my post have little to do qith the DQ, the main issue was Elvis post, I think you adress that as well already no? I just want to go via irc over minor stuff to polish the looking of your map.
About the 7 stars diff, that diff wasn't there when the map got qualify so I don't know what you want to get with having it there, if you want to qualify with it go ahead.
Topic Starter
all you gotta do is make your list on extra of changes for me to do and make the verdict that you want comfort deleted in return for an icon
i see no reason to walk behind the curtain and discuss things when clearly the chance for discussing or presenting my opinions is long gone, because as long as you disagree, you will have this map DQ'd by listing a handful of bullshit reasons and ask for it to be DQ'd before i even get the chance to respond
don't try to say otherwise, elvis' post was literally 2 half-assed opinions and one "well i kind of think this is wrong". This DQ was borderline abusive and you know it full well.
say your piece and I'll do whatever you want because that's what I'm basically forced to do. You clearly know better than I do how to map my own map.
i see no reason to walk behind the curtain and discuss things when clearly the chance for discussing or presenting my opinions is long gone, because as long as you disagree, you will have this map DQ'd by listing a handful of bullshit reasons and ask for it to be DQ'd before i even get the chance to respond
don't try to say otherwise, elvis' post was literally 2 half-assed opinions and one "well i kind of think this is wrong". This DQ was borderline abusive and you know it full well.
say your piece and I'll do whatever you want because that's what I'm basically forced to do. You clearly know better than I do how to map my own map.
Well Shiirn if you gonna keep that attitude then go ahead and look for anyone else, I'm done here, you aren't a kid anymore and we can talk the stuff with calm, you are not forced to do nothing or fix nothing, but to reply and explain your mapping with manners in a polite way, also stop making like your map will change for moving 3 rhythms at elvis post and fixing some visual things that don't require to make your map different, but looking better,you know this well so I don't know why the big deal with this.
Anyways I'll be there on IRC willing to help you if you change your mind.
Anyways I'll be there on IRC willing to help you if you change your mind.
Topic Starter
Clarified things in my usual completely barbaric and offensive way. Small changes are small, but they add up like crazy when I'm not promised any sort of forward movement. Okoratu mentioned before, I'm forced with bad positions because I've had to sew together suggestions from a dozen places and now any further ones are just more problems to the fire. It's not that the suggestions being made are unreasonable, nor that i am being unreasonable for not accepting them, but that there are so many, so many conflicting suggestions that it's impossible to satisfy everyone so I just want to stick to at least satisfying myself.
Discussed with the mapper we moved stuff in Extra, like fixing alot of blankets, some stacks, things in my mod were adressed and the last thing we are waiting is a disccusion in: p/5092844#p5092844 So we can maybe rank this with the previously removed 7* diff, positive things can be archive with DQ, so you guys should always take some minutes for think and look for a talk about the problem instead of discussing useless stuff.
Anyways if you want to add something about the current disussion that is the spread , feel free to do it, we need all the posible opinions to find an agreement, just as remember we disscusing about the spread now.
Anyways if you want to add something about the current disussion that is the spread , feel free to do it, we need all the posible opinions to find an agreement, just as remember we disscusing about the spread now.
Specifically talking about the Extra -> Comfort spread, I think it works fine as is. The SR formula doesn't work as well for alt-based maps, and in this case both the spacing and rhythm increase by a fair amount but not too drastically and works fine as a second and highest difficulty.
(side note: ...I got further on Comfort than Extra what is going on there hahah)
Extra to Insane is only a spacing difference since the density of notes is almost the same but the spacing is a fair amount lower and the density doesn't need to be lowered for an insane-level.
Lower diffs are SR-wise good so I'll assume they are fair because too lazy to check \o/
tl;dr Extra to Comfort works as an actual good step up despite SR
(edit: gg didnt see the thread link)
(side note: ...I got further on Comfort than Extra what is going on there hahah)
Extra to Insane is only a spacing difference since the density of notes is almost the same but the spacing is a fair amount lower and the density doesn't need to be lowered for an insane-level.
Lower diffs are SR-wise good so I'll assume they are fair because too lazy to check \o/
tl;dr Extra to Comfort works as an actual good step up despite SR
(edit: gg didnt see the thread link)
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
they change the slider velocityShiguma wrote:
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
Mazziv wrote:
they change the slider velocity
Volume change, got it.
then its the volume that changesShiguma wrote:
But it's a spinnerMazziv wrote:
they change the slider velocity
Topic Starter
Shiguma wrote:
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
I made the slider velocity match the volume because I'm a funny guy. Also, Comfort has changed in a lot of small ways but mostly in ones that actually follow my vision of the song, unlike Extra. What people don't seem to understand is that I'm not actually that good a mapper. My first drafts suck and it's only after self-modding for a while that the maps git gud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGKPmZ0Pl0Shiirn wrote:
I'm a funny guy.
So, in your opinion Extra is nothing like it used to be?
And we should all embrace how we all equally suck, and thus achieve universal peace and understanding!Shiirn wrote:
I'm not actually that good a mapper.
thankKalindraz wrote:
Discomfort
- First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is
perfectlyfunctional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all,your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.
This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).Shiirn wrote:
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier). And seeing retarded non-sense HW maps getting ranked, or jump spam Monster/Remote Control getting ranked but not this map with actual flow and rhythm sense makes me sad.
I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?Kynan wrote:
This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).Shiirn wrote:
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier).
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.
- The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
- We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
- We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.
What do you want me to say ? "Hey if your issue is spread then guess what, since you're not HW and you don't use dumb sliders that have no impact on the star rating, then you're gonna have to either nerf your really good map and make it annoying as fuck to play or simply remove it from the mapset" ? Because that's already been said by the past and if "spread" is the ONLY argument against that map then, well, good fucking luck.
Edit: I really don't see why people care about the spread over mapping quality. Having to nerf the map just to make it fit the spread as opposed to keeping it as it is because it plays well is just retarded.
Edit: I really don't see why people care about the spread over mapping quality. Having to nerf the map just to make it fit the spread as opposed to keeping it as it is because it plays well is just retarded.
Tbh, if the map plays well, then it doesnt matter how its mapped. Also the spread is fine, you dont need a diff every 0.3 stars man.Natsu wrote:
I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.
- The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
- We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
- We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.
The problem is that some players will feel like "Oh wow I can ace extra but can't even pass Comfort, there should really be a diff in between/extra should be harder/ Comfort should be easier!"
And that's what they're tryng to avoid. It's the right thing to do because when that happens it's REALLY annoyng, but I don't think that can be done in every map, some would need a full remap instead of nerfs which as you said can't be done without making the map worse..
And that's what they're tryng to avoid. It's the right thing to do because when that happens it's REALLY annoyng, but I don't think that can be done in every map, some would need a full remap instead of nerfs which as you said can't be done without making the map worse..
See monstrata post, that's what I'm asking for, anyways I will just move on from this set, since trying to help here, is making me stress alot. Best of luck with this.
I don't think another difficulty is necessary. high bpm maps just tend to scale harder with star-rating. Of course, we take star-rating into account, but we should also acknowledge that the star-rating has its limitations, this map being a key example. The extra is quite a bit more difficult than the star rating suggests imo. It's mapped in a double bpm style, but it's also very alternator based, and uses a lot of large 1/4 slider jumps. However, we know that 1/4 slider jumps are a severely underweighted pattern which results in the map being a lower star rating that expected. This is true of a lot of similar maps (see Scarlet Rose). Comfort on the other hand uses 1/4 circle jumps and we all know that circle jumps are the main cause for star-rating inflation (see any of my maps). The map itself, I don't find to be that much of a step up from Extra, so the difficulty spread is acceptable imo. The star-rating gap is large, definitely, but hopefully we can see that part of this is because the two difficulties lie on opposite ends of the star-rating spectrum, one being underweighted, and one being overweighted.
Anyways, I wonder if other high-ranked players share this view.
Anyways, I wonder if other high-ranked players share this view.
TIL that spread isn't based on star rating.Natsu wrote:
Just bring your input about the ¨spread¨, IDC what HW is ranking, I care what is going on in this mapset, and no we are not talking about the star ranting.
Also what Monstrata said, the only reason the difference in star rating is so big between Extra and Comfort is because one uses a lot of sliders and the other doesn't. The spread is totally fine here it's just (circles) jumps being overrated vs sliders being underrated.
Edit: Didn't mean to offend you Natsu, it's just that the point you made about the spread, IN MY EYES, was dumb so you know... If that's still the only reason why this isn't getting ranked then I don't see why we're still discussing it, it just makes no sense to not rank a map simply because the MAX DIFF which is above Extra is apparently "too hard" compared to the Extra. It's not Shiirn's fault if the star rating is dumb as hell when it comes to jump maps.
Topic Starter
Okay seriously what the fuck guys. I know full well that Natsu doesn't want to actually re-icon this map and is looking for a clean, obvious way to get out of it, but I wanted the spread thing to be firmly removed as a possibility for any possible future qualifications.
Seeing as the only person willing to icon the mapset as-is is Monstrata (After I present the traditional offering of three unharmed three-month-old kittens from the third litter), I'm stuck unless another BN steps up anyway.
People are free to disagree with how the map is constructed, because it takes a lot of liberties with the establish "normal" mapping style, namely, that "consistency" (very predictable 1/2 spamming) and "flow" (movements with the least amount of physical exertion) styles that completely disgust me because they make absolute mockeries of the music they are attached to.
I fully believe this set deserves to be ranked. It brings to the community several challenges and reminders that have not existed in this game for more than a couple of years. The Extra has been largely and clumsily chopped apart and put back together, yes, but it is still a functional alternator map (which are thankfully hard to fuck up too hard) and fits as a bridge between Insane and Comfort.
People usually tend to object to the mapping styles used within this map because they think it "doesn't make sense" or "doesn't have a cohesive theme". I can safely say that I fully know and understand this map and every movement used within. But that's what people do nowadays. They fear what they don't understand. They refuse to look outside of their own little comfort bubble to see what mapping can truly become. Their own personal views become what they think is RIGHT, and they act actively to defend this game from what they view as destructive. And I can respect that. I was like that once too. But all modders and mappers have that phase where they think they are the only ones standing between this game and horrible quality maps. They are wrong and horribly arrogant and I was just like that before.
EDIT: I think everyone needs a break from this set. I'm going to request it be locked again.
Seeing as the only person willing to icon the mapset as-is is Monstrata (After I present the traditional offering of three unharmed three-month-old kittens from the third litter), I'm stuck unless another BN steps up anyway.
- Extra contains mildly large spacing with heavy slider-circle-slider jump movement. This is extremely traditional of alternator maps, and sticks to this alternating style for most of the map.
- Comfort contains very large spacing with very little slider-based leniency or friendliness. The first kiai especially contains massive bounce jumps that encourage single-tapping due to how hard it is to coordinate alternation while making very large, sweeping movements. This kind of combined challenge is what Comfort is based around and what makes it so fun and satisfying to watch and, if you are capable, to play. The second kiai has spacing that is just as large, but since it uses slider-circle-slider jump patterns it is actually much easier and I think any high-tier player can tell you that.
- Comfort contains very large spacing with circle patterns that I fully understand are very harsh and difficult. There are a lot of horizontal jumps, namely left->right jumps, which are easily the most naturally difficult movements possible for tablet players.
- The spread is fine. Extra is a standard difficulty cap for alternation. It fits very well as the hardest diff of the set, but Comfort adds a completely different challenge that most high-tier players haven't had (brief shoutout to the original Tengaku, which did something similar but in a different way) any maps do to challenge them in months, if not years: actually needing to coordinate their clicking with their movement. Most of the very high PP maps and the DT farming maps contain only the challenge of having high enough stamina to singletap, say, 250-270bpm 1/2s, while making over-scaled jump movements. Comfort actually ties these jump movements into the same alternator map that extra is.
- This means that Comfort is ridiculously hard because it contains two entirely different playstyle challenges in one map. Anyone capable of FCing this is easily one of the best players this game has seen, and I want that to be obvious to any observers.
People are free to disagree with how the map is constructed, because it takes a lot of liberties with the establish "normal" mapping style, namely, that "consistency" (very predictable 1/2 spamming) and "flow" (movements with the least amount of physical exertion) styles that completely disgust me because they make absolute mockeries of the music they are attached to.
I fully believe this set deserves to be ranked. It brings to the community several challenges and reminders that have not existed in this game for more than a couple of years. The Extra has been largely and clumsily chopped apart and put back together, yes, but it is still a functional alternator map (which are thankfully hard to fuck up too hard) and fits as a bridge between Insane and Comfort.
People usually tend to object to the mapping styles used within this map because they think it "doesn't make sense" or "doesn't have a cohesive theme". I can safely say that I fully know and understand this map and every movement used within. But that's what people do nowadays. They fear what they don't understand. They refuse to look outside of their own little comfort bubble to see what mapping can truly become. Their own personal views become what they think is RIGHT, and they act actively to defend this game from what they view as destructive. And I can respect that. I was like that once too. But all modders and mappers have that phase where they think they are the only ones standing between this game and horrible quality maps. They are wrong and horribly arrogant and I was just like that before.
EDIT: I think everyone needs a break from this set. I'm going to request it be locked again.
Topic Starter
Opened back up for polite and hopefully rational discussion, if anything about it even needs to be said anymore.
Okay.
[COMFORT]
[COMFORT]
- 00:08:832 (4) - I'd CTRL+G so it keeps the square pattern intact, creates a slightly nicer pressure onto 00:09:040 (5) - since I don't get right now I feel like 00:08:832 (4) - gets too much unecessary pressure at that part of the song.
- 00:36:853 (1,1) - Never really liked or understood this, you might have exlpained it before on the thread, but it's too long for me to find :p So I'll appreciate an explanation. (perhaps I'm just a shitty player idk)
- 00:14:978 (1,2,1) - spacing is a bit unnecessarily huge here imo, especially for an hyper, it's misleading.
- 00:32:999 (6,2) - I wouldn't do this in a hyper, really confusing.
- 00:50:811 (4,5,1) - Would appreciate a bit of consistency and increasing the spacing here, since it's really close to the 1/4 spacing you had so far and far from the 1/2 one.
- 01:16:436 (6,7) - This overlap is not very aesthethic.
- 01:53:415 (1) - 15% audio like you did at higher diffs. (same for probox's and pishi's diffs.
- 00:33:520 (2) - Yeah there's beat on the reverses, tail and head, but the slider doesn't really fit imo.. The song does not ask for those reverses.
- 00:34:978 (1) - Yeah, it's a strange song. But still, this should be snapped to 00:34:874 and not the white tick.
- 00:59:978 (1) - The hell is going in this section? Some places this rhythm is not mapped, some places it is, and some places you placed a spinnner ;o WHaT's going on?
- 01:09:978 (1) - Would be much better to not use a spinner or just shorten it to actually start the map with the super intense notes at 01:13:311 and not join awkwardly at 01:14:561 (1) -
- 01:24:145 (2,1) - Use some other rhythm, first sliderend and second sliderhead are snapped incorrectly, and it's audible while playing.
Thanks for the mod Avishay! I won't be making any changes to the beginner diff since the rhythms have been finetuned with Bakari and they work well.
Went through everything with Avishay in irc
Went through everything with Avishay in irc
Topic Starter
Avishay wrote:
Okay.
[COMFORT][EXTRA]
- 00:08:832 (4) - I'd CTRL+G so it keeps the square pattern intact, creates a slightly nicer pressure onto 00:09:040 (5) - since I don't get right now I feel like 00:08:832 (4) - gets too much unecessary pressure at that part of the song. Long list of reasoning aside, this is small enough that there's no real gameplay impact, there's more visual and emphasis impact in this change. So since either way works, I'll go with this one. It also makes the 3-slider pattern symmetrical and rotational, i guess.
[HYPER]
- 00:36:853 (1,1) - Never really liked or understood this, you might have exlpained it before on the thread, but it's too long for me to find :p So I'll appreciate an explanation. (perhaps I'm just a shitty player idk) This is a hold on the start of the first slider with another key for the start of the second. I've gotten mostly praise over these two particular sliders, as it's a way to heavily emphasize the background buildup without any movement while still having a very strong burst of speed and energy as the music "starts up again". All 1/8 timing in the map is intended to force the player to alternate. Having it be 1/4 would simply have the player tap their key on it, this has the player forcibly hold down their key. The lack of a visible slider tick causes some irritation, but I really feel this is the best way of combining what i want the player to do with what the player expects.
[ADVANCED]
- 00:14:978 (1,2,1) - spacing is a bit unnecessarily huge here imo, especially for an hyper, it's misleading. Moved 2 down.
- 00:32:999 (6,2) - I wouldn't do this in a hyper, really confusing. Rotated 2,3,4 so that 2 is clearly visible while still keeping the pattern.
- 00:50:811 (4,5,1) - Would appreciate a bit of consistency and increasing the spacing here, since it's really close to the 1/4 spacing you had so far and far from the 1/2 one. Moved 5.
- 01:16:436 (6,7) - This overlap is not very aesthethic. made prettier
- 01:53:415 (1) - 15% audio like you did at higher diffs. (same for probox's and pishi's diffs. agree
- 00:33:520 (2) - Yeah there's beat on the reverses, tail and head, but the slider doesn't really fit imo.. The song does not ask for those reverses. Not my difficulty, but I can safely say that I disagree here, this is an alternative way of 'following' the music without forcing a normal-level player to actually need to follow the intricacies of this track's rhythms, which get really weird here. It also helpfully polarizes the rhythm so that the following two blue-tick notes feel natural.
Thanks for your time!
I'll appreciate a response on the concerns I have over the beginner difficulty.
Pew pew.