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Camellia - Routing
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i actually really enjoy discomfort but that's just my worthless opinion OpieOP
As far as I know and what I can see from this, Shiirn didn't enjoy trying to rank this set, and if the creator doesn't enjoy ranking it, then theres no point in doing so. All I saw was Shiirn trying to rank this set for my diff's sake, which I'm really happy about, but at the same time upset because he didn't enjoy doing it. All I wanted was to enjoy making this set along with the others who participated in putting the set together, but it seems players didn't enjoy it. No problem with that.
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
Toumei Elegy 2.0
No room for your own personal preferences. Not even in your own maps. This is how I like it. Keep it up boys.
No room for your own personal preferences. Not even in your own maps. This is how I like it. Keep it up boys.
Problem with modding v2 is that its gonna have a lot more of people's opinion. Its gonna go back and forth with agreements and disagreements, until they come to a consensus and find the map entirely different, which is against the mapper's will, which is what kind of happened here.Monstrata wrote:
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
I don't know if its just me and my stupid thinking, I also think that Modding v2 might bring it into a new direction and change things, but will it actually be for the better? If you could, shine some light on me. I'm probably not thinking about Modding v2 correctly.
I am pretty sure you are one of the few, who are thinking correctly with this one.Ongaku wrote:
Problem with modding v2 is that its gonna have a lot more of people's opinion. Its gonna go back and forth with agreements and disagreements, until they come to a consensus and find the map entirely different, which is against the mapper's will, which is what kind of happened here.Monstrata wrote:
The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".
I don't know if its just me and my stupid thinking, I also think that Modding v2 might bring it into a new direction and change things, but will it actually be for the better? If you could, shine some light on me. I'm probably not thinking about Modding v2 correctly.
More community-open -> more opinions -> more disagreements/more discussion -> more frustration for mapper because he has to accept even more things he personally disagrees with.
shARPII wrote:
Ok guys this isn't the place for a thesis about the importance of users in mappers choices.
If you want to run something more serious, create a topic here and discuss freely : 56
I'll start to remove content which aren't mods for this specific map (or helping this map) under this post.
It will certainly help with a lot of things, but also cause more confusion with others.What everyone said about modding v2 wrote:
<stuff>
Likewise, moddingv2 helps with the maps that have "few things which are discussable" but in this case there are a lot of flying opinions about a lot things and the clustering of information and opinions won't exactly be any different, just presented nicer.
Edit: Oops offtopic sry
Hmm... I wouldn't think of moddingv2 like that. I don't think there's a necessity to change your map in order to appease every member of the community. I was thinking more in the lines of having some way to document one's reasoning for certain patterns and why one is unwilling to change them. It seems a better option than having to explain your reasoning again and again because people aren't reading up on previous mod posts/replies.
Regarding rhythm, Discomfort looks/sounds on point and the map is for itself reasonable
fuck y'all, you forgot what this game is about, let Shiirn do his thing
fuck y'all, you forgot what this game is about, let Shiirn do his thing
Yet the opinion of a few members of the community is all it took to redq it.Monstrata wrote:
Hmm... I wouldn't think of moddingv2 like that. I don't think there's a necessity to change your map in order to appease every member of the community. I was thinking more in the lines of having some way to document one's reasoning for certain patterns and why one is unwilling to change them. It seems a better option than having to explain your reasoning again and again because people aren't reading up on previous mod posts/replies.
Just gonna throw it out there that I found both [Comfort] and honestly, especially [Unrankable] very fun. As someone who alternates, it's a joy to play, even though it's incredibly difficult. I really don't think it needed many changes, because nitpicking minor things in a crazy map like that is like trying to use white-out to cover up certain portions of a mural. Why even bother? It's pointless and you're just heavily damaging something which was beautiful on its own. Really, players who lack the ability to alternate or singletap extremely quickly don't have much place commenting on this map, as it's meant for alting, in the same way Everything Went Numb, Scarlet Rose, and Meikaruza are. It's not playable for the majority of the playerbase simply because it's not their playstyle, and on top of that, it's unquestionably the hardest alternating map I've seen hit qualified. Honestly, in my personal opinion, it should be rolled back to an earlier iteration and modding should be redone from there, but I doubt that will happen based on Shiirn's current emotional state regarding the set. Everyone really should stop being a pain in the ass about this. The game is about fun, not about ruining that of everyone else.
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
My only actual beef with it at this point is "holy shit OD9.7 jesus christ"
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
My only actual beef with it at this point is "holy shit OD9.7 jesus christ"
As quoted from Shiirn:Moosqueak wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there that I found both [Comfort] and honestly, especially [Unrankable] very fun. As someone who alternates, it's a joy to play, even though it's incredibly difficult. I really don't think it needed many changes, because nitpicking minor things in a crazy map like that is like trying to use white-out to cover up certain portions of a mural. Why even bother? It's pointless and you're just heavily damaging something which was beautiful on its own. Really, players who lack the ability to alternate or singletap extremely quickly don't have much place commenting on this map, as it's meant for alting, in the same way Everything Went Numb, Scarlet Rose, and Meikaruza are. It's not playable for the majority of the playerbase simply because it's not their playstyle, and on top of that, it's unquestionably the hardest alternating map I've seen hit qualified. Honestly, in my personal opinion, it should be rolled back to an earlier iteration and modding should be redone from there, but I doubt that will happen based on Shiirn's current emotional state regarding the set. Everyone really should stop being a pain in the ass about this. The game is about fun, not about ruining that of everyone else.
Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.
"They just aren't ready yet"
Topic Starter
I am satisfied with how Comfort is right now. All that I think it really needs is someone to help me polish it up a bit. I have been satisfied with it since soon after the first DQ, when it received a minor visual and directional overhaul, but no BN or QAT is willing to rank it.
Extra was and currently is the problem, as it is an utter mess that has been torn apart three separate times: Right before qualification, where I needed to arbitrarily increase circle spacing so as to bump the star rating from 5.13 to 5.5 whilst barely making the map any harder, right after qualification, when I was balancing it to be more of a mediary between Insane and Comfort, and then after I dumped Comfort when it became clear that without Millhiore's say so nobody would be willing to qualify it, I tried to make Extra more of a standalone difficulty.
It was always meant to tie Insane and Comfort together, and with Comfort being gone, it lost a lot of context, which lead to confusing moments for modders where it's like "why don't you have a click here?", "well when Comfort was there all of those beats had clicks but Extra is less dense for the sake of ease of play" doesn't make sense when Comfort no longer exists.
This can be circularly discussed for days, if not weeks, without a consensus being reached. This is the kind of map that I really felt only really needed some polishing mods and moving into ranking, disagreements about the concept be damned. It's pointless unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel, which the current mapping climate has convinced me does not exist.
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
Extra was and currently is the problem, as it is an utter mess that has been torn apart three separate times: Right before qualification, where I needed to arbitrarily increase circle spacing so as to bump the star rating from 5.13 to 5.5 whilst barely making the map any harder, right after qualification, when I was balancing it to be more of a mediary between Insane and Comfort, and then after I dumped Comfort when it became clear that without Millhiore's say so nobody would be willing to qualify it, I tried to make Extra more of a standalone difficulty.
It was always meant to tie Insane and Comfort together, and with Comfort being gone, it lost a lot of context, which lead to confusing moments for modders where it's like "why don't you have a click here?", "well when Comfort was there all of those beats had clicks but Extra is less dense for the sake of ease of play" doesn't make sense when Comfort no longer exists.
This can be circularly discussed for days, if not weeks, without a consensus being reached. This is the kind of map that I really felt only really needed some polishing mods and moving into ranking, disagreements about the concept be damned. It's pointless unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel, which the current mapping climate has convinced me does not exist.
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
ah, I'm watching the feedback from other players, I do not know if you're ignoring because of bad mods, or unnecessary quotes, or ignorance on their part, finally I'm doing a mod in my point of view, that can really improve (if you want).
Discomfort
Anyway joking aside, you realize how much of mods you can get? damn, at a time like, it was for your map is RANKED, but because of their many arguments to keep some conflicts, it is so obvious, it is clear that this proportion reached where your map takes more than 2 dq, it's funny .. I do not know if most of the mods it was by own will (like mine) members, or it was by pv, #modreqs, etc. If by own will can be sure that the intention of the more experienced to less experienced, was exactly help you solve it, so just take it in mind.
ah I spent 1-2 hours to see these small conflicts and explain
Have a good night!
Extra
- 00:14:978 (1) - you could give stack with 00:14:561 (7) - reinforces the steady rhythm that will come, besides being no-aesthetic without her location, right?
- I think that the distance from the end of 00:15:499 (4) - to the 00:15:811 (5) - is high but I believe that the overlap of them are pretty ugly i can give a suggestion: http://puu.sh/oEkCm.jpg
- 00:15:811 (5,6) - can be symetrical?
- 00:16:436 (3) - kinda.. obvious to fix the distance of that note in relation to the others, right?
- 00:16:853 (1) - i think you can replace for 2 sliders 1/4 with reverse, for more emphasis? Bring more energy > http://puu.sh/oEl93.jpg.
- 00:17:270 (3,4,6) - recently, a map has taken dq, precisely because of the overlap of these notes, the better fix before someone report this and be the cause of a future dq.
- 00:18:311 (1,2) - ok, its a really high distance of 1/2 144 bpm(sound like a slow beat) rythm.
- 00:18:103 (6) - replace for 2 single notes, to emphasis this part. ( hear 00:18:103 - 00:18:207 - )
- 00:23:520 (1) - you can remove reverse arrow e add 3 notes to emphasize?
- 00:30:186 (6) - same^
- 00:29:145 (5) - ah.. thats tense, particularly you could change the direction of this to not be retarded.
- 00:31:332 (3) - same thing about this 00:18:103 (6) -
- 00:45:811 (4,1) - sounds like a discomfort pattern, too distant? i don't know.
- 00:47:061 (4,5) - eeh. ds beetween this notes its high to 1/4 selection( i know, its 144 bpm).
- 00:47:895 (7,8) - ^ same
- 00:54:978 (1) - i guess this slider fit better be 1/2 and not 1/1
- you can replace this 1/4 triples ( 01:18:520 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ) for something like that http://puu.sh/oEmSM.jpg
- 01:16:124 (3,1) - suggestion > http://puu.sh/oEn45.jpg
- 01:28:103 (8) - nc here for alert this 1/4 jump.
- 01:28:624 - you miss a strong beat here.
- 01:31:332 (2,1) - This Distance beetween this notes its ankward higher. ( you have a nice argument to keep it? haha)
- 01:35:395 (3,4) - ^ same.
- 01:37:270 (2,1) - ^
- 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - this notes It seems to have been placed randomly. you can make "shiirn cooler triangles" on this part http://puu.sh/oEnIk.jpg
- Alternatively titled "Shiirn's Experiments With Blanketing!" .
- 00:01:645 (1,5) -
- 00:07:895 (5,1,5) -
- 00:17:165 (1,4) -
- 00:29:145 (5,3) -
- 00:36:089 (5,6) -
- 01:44:561 (2,1,5) -
- 01:52:686 (2,1) -
- First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is
perfectlyfunctional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all,your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.
Anyway joking aside, you realize how much of mods you can get? damn, at a time like, it was for your map is RANKED, but because of their many arguments to keep some conflicts, it is so obvious, it is clear that this proportion reached where your map takes more than 2 dq, it's funny .. I do not know if most of the mods it was by own will (like mine) members, or it was by pv, #modreqs, etc. If by own will can be sure that the intention of the more experienced to less experienced, was exactly help you solve it, so just take it in mind.
Have a good night!
You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.
Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.
I don't get what's wrong with this. Why was it DQ'd? This is perfectly playable (albeit insanely hard) and it's even well done.
opinions were shotShiro wrote:
I don't get what's wrong with this. Why was it DQ'd? This is perfectly playable (albeit insanely hard) and it's even well done.
Topic Starter
Ongaku, I renamed Comfort to Discomfort when I readded it. Current Discomfort = Post-DQ Comfort.
WwwwwwwwShiirn wrote:
Ongaku, I renamed Comfort to Discomfort when I readded it. Current Discomfort = Post-DQ Comfort.
I got trolled
Topic Starter
And for anyone not in the know, Kalindraz' discomfort thing was basically a copy-paste of my mod on xexxar's my hero diff.
And I'm not going to bother going over every individual note presented because fuck that. 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - are also basically random but blanketed on purpose, what's the problem with that? I will look over the blanket issues but giving a glance over what you've linked i can safely say 90% of it is denied as this map is long beyond accepting completely remapped patterns given to me as "suggestions" because that shit is what ruined it in the first place.
And I'm not going to bother going over every individual note presented because fuck that. 01:37:478 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - are also basically random but blanketed on purpose, what's the problem with that? I will look over the blanket issues but giving a glance over what you've linked i can safely say 90% of it is denied as this map is long beyond accepting completely remapped patterns given to me as "suggestions" because that shit is what ruined it in the first place.
So you guys are still going to rank this, or you will continue doing useless post, If so I'm there in game, you can poke me anytime.Ongaku wrote:
You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.
Edit: ew, my post have little to do qith the DQ, the main issue was Elvis post, I think you adress that as well already no? I just want to go via irc over minor stuff to polish the looking of your map.
About the 7 stars diff, that diff wasn't there when the map got qualify so I don't know what you want to get with having it there, if you want to qualify with it go ahead.
Topic Starter
all you gotta do is make your list on extra of changes for me to do and make the verdict that you want comfort deleted in return for an icon
i see no reason to walk behind the curtain and discuss things when clearly the chance for discussing or presenting my opinions is long gone, because as long as you disagree, you will have this map DQ'd by listing a handful of bullshit reasons and ask for it to be DQ'd before i even get the chance to respond
don't try to say otherwise, elvis' post was literally 2 half-assed opinions and one "well i kind of think this is wrong". This DQ was borderline abusive and you know it full well.
say your piece and I'll do whatever you want because that's what I'm basically forced to do. You clearly know better than I do how to map my own map.
i see no reason to walk behind the curtain and discuss things when clearly the chance for discussing or presenting my opinions is long gone, because as long as you disagree, you will have this map DQ'd by listing a handful of bullshit reasons and ask for it to be DQ'd before i even get the chance to respond
don't try to say otherwise, elvis' post was literally 2 half-assed opinions and one "well i kind of think this is wrong". This DQ was borderline abusive and you know it full well.
say your piece and I'll do whatever you want because that's what I'm basically forced to do. You clearly know better than I do how to map my own map.
Well Shiirn if you gonna keep that attitude then go ahead and look for anyone else, I'm done here, you aren't a kid anymore and we can talk the stuff with calm, you are not forced to do nothing or fix nothing, but to reply and explain your mapping with manners in a polite way, also stop making like your map will change for moving 3 rhythms at elvis post and fixing some visual things that don't require to make your map different, but looking better,you know this well so I don't know why the big deal with this.
Anyways I'll be there on IRC willing to help you if you change your mind.
Anyways I'll be there on IRC willing to help you if you change your mind.
Topic Starter
Clarified things in my usual completely barbaric and offensive way. Small changes are small, but they add up like crazy when I'm not promised any sort of forward movement. Okoratu mentioned before, I'm forced with bad positions because I've had to sew together suggestions from a dozen places and now any further ones are just more problems to the fire. It's not that the suggestions being made are unreasonable, nor that i am being unreasonable for not accepting them, but that there are so many, so many conflicting suggestions that it's impossible to satisfy everyone so I just want to stick to at least satisfying myself.
Discussed with the mapper we moved stuff in Extra, like fixing alot of blankets, some stacks, things in my mod were adressed and the last thing we are waiting is a disccusion in: p/5092844#p5092844 So we can maybe rank this with the previously removed 7* diff, positive things can be archive with DQ, so you guys should always take some minutes for think and look for a talk about the problem instead of discussing useless stuff.
Anyways if you want to add something about the current disussion that is the spread , feel free to do it, we need all the posible opinions to find an agreement, just as remember we disscusing about the spread now.
Anyways if you want to add something about the current disussion that is the spread , feel free to do it, we need all the posible opinions to find an agreement, just as remember we disscusing about the spread now.
Specifically talking about the Extra -> Comfort spread, I think it works fine as is. The SR formula doesn't work as well for alt-based maps, and in this case both the spacing and rhythm increase by a fair amount but not too drastically and works fine as a second and highest difficulty.
(side note: ...I got further on Comfort than Extra what is going on there hahah)
Extra to Insane is only a spacing difference since the density of notes is almost the same but the spacing is a fair amount lower and the density doesn't need to be lowered for an insane-level.
Lower diffs are SR-wise good so I'll assume they are fair because too lazy to check \o/
tl;dr Extra to Comfort works as an actual good step up despite SR
(edit: gg didnt see the thread link)
(side note: ...I got further on Comfort than Extra what is going on there hahah)
Extra to Insane is only a spacing difference since the density of notes is almost the same but the spacing is a fair amount lower and the density doesn't need to be lowered for an insane-level.
Lower diffs are SR-wise good so I'll assume they are fair because too lazy to check \o/
tl;dr Extra to Comfort works as an actual good step up despite SR
(edit: gg didnt see the thread link)
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
they change the slider velocityShiguma wrote:
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
Mazziv wrote:
they change the slider velocity
Volume change, got it.
then its the volume that changesShiguma wrote:
But it's a spinnerMazziv wrote:
they change the slider velocity
Topic Starter
Shiguma wrote:
Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?
Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?
I made the slider velocity match the volume because I'm a funny guy. Also, Comfort has changed in a lot of small ways but mostly in ones that actually follow my vision of the song, unlike Extra. What people don't seem to understand is that I'm not actually that good a mapper. My first drafts suck and it's only after self-modding for a while that the maps git gud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGKPmZ0Pl0Shiirn wrote:
I'm a funny guy.
So, in your opinion Extra is nothing like it used to be?
And we should all embrace how we all equally suck, and thus achieve universal peace and understanding!Shiirn wrote:
I'm not actually that good a mapper.
thankKalindraz wrote:
Discomfort
- First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is
perfectlyfunctional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all,your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.
This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).Shiirn wrote:
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier). And seeing retarded non-sense HW maps getting ranked, or jump spam Monster/Remote Control getting ranked but not this map with actual flow and rhythm sense makes me sad.
I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?Kynan wrote:
This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).Shiirn wrote:
People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier).
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.
- The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
- We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
- We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.